Latest news with #FMR
The Hindu
7 days ago
- General
- The Hindu
Care home residents in Koyilandy living in fear again
As the dark clouds of the South Western monsoon hover over the skies, members of Asha Niketan, a care-giving home for mentally challenged persons at Nandi Bazar near Koyilandy in Kozhikode district, are living in fear again. The western side of the property was vertically cut for about seven metres without taking scientific or technical precautions for the ongoing construction of the National Highway-66 bypass road linking Nandi and Chengottukavu, claim its authorities. A building standing on the edge of this portion was partially acquired for the work. The remaining part is now on the verge of collapse and is standing in a precarious condition. Asha Niketan is run by FMR (India), a charitable organisation, and there are around 70 inmates at the care home now. O.K. Premanandan, chairman, Asha Niketan, told The Hindu that the contractor and the National Highways Authority of India (NHAI) authorities were yet to provide any kind of safety steps to protect the boundaries of their property. 'Portions of the property standing on the edge of the road are now sliding down. Soil erosion is happening because of the absence of any kind of protective wall on either side of the acquired property. This has been experienced during heavy showers for the past few years,' he said. The Asha Niketan functionaries said that when heavy rains lashed the area between May 23 and May 31, the mentally challenged inmates had to be shifted to other buildings for safety. Mr. Premanandan said that the bypass road had divided the property into multiple portions. 'When the land was being acquired, we were promised that the service road to Nandi Bazar would be extended to reach the facility. However, the narrow side road leading to the care-giving home was demolished during the work. There is no access from the main road to the residential buildings and other facilities on the eastern side,' he said. Three of the 10 acres owned by the care home were acquired for the work. The road is now passing through the middle of the property, isolating the eastern portion, which has residential buildings, an administrative office, a workshop, classrooms, and a cow shed, among others.
Time of India
02-06-2025
- Politics
- Time of India
Naga student bodies picket govt offices in Manipur
Imphal: The people's movement against the scrapping of the Free Movement Regime (FMR) and the border fencing construction gained momentum with the closure of govt offices called by the All Naga Students' Association Manipur (ANSAM) in the Naga-inhabited areas on Monday. In Ukhrul, the Tangkhul Katamnao Saklong (TKS), the apex student body of the Tangkhul community, enforced the first day of agitation at Ukhrul headquarters. The office picketing has completely paralysed all activities of govt offices. "In consonance with the stand of ANSAM, against the revocation of FMR and the imposed border fencing across the Naga homeland, the TKS expresses its unwavering support and joins the collective voice of the Naga people," TKS said. All govt offices within the jurisdiction of Rongmei Naga Students Organisation were also picketed in the presence of Angteshang Maring, president of ANSAM and his team. Picketing govt offices was also executed in Tamenglong district, with various student bodies and organisations taking the lead, sources said. "Let us unite in our quest for justice and the preservation of our land and rights. Together, we're making our voices heard. Our collective efforts are a testament to the power of unity and solidarity. Let us continue to stand strong and advocate for the rights of the Naga community without borders," read the joint statement issued by the student bodies.
Yahoo
02-06-2025
- Business
- Yahoo
KBC Group: Publication of transparency notification(s) received by KBC Group NV
(art. 14, 1st section of the Act of 2 May 2007 concerning the disclosure of significant participations) Summary of the notification(s) KBC Group NV has received an updated transparency notification on 27 May 2025, which states that FMR has a stake of 3.29% in KBC Group (total voting rights and equivalent financial instruments). The reason for the update is a crossing of the 3%- reporting threshold. Content of the notification(s) The notification(s) contain(s) following information: Reason for the notification(s): 'Acquisition or disposal of voting securities or voting rights' Notification(s) by: FMR LLC. Persons subject to the notification requirement: see annex Date(s) on which the 3% threshold is crossed: 21 May 2025. Threshold that is crossed: KBC Group's Articles of Association set a notification threshold of 3% of the total number of voting rights. In addition, the legal thresholds of 5% or any multiple thereof also apply. Denominator (number of shares KBC Group NV): 417 544 151 Notified details: see annex. Chain of controlled undertakings through which the holding is effectively held:See '11: Full chain of controlled undertakings through which the holding is effectively held' in the PDF-file(s) on (see below). The relevant notification(s) is (are) available at > Investor relations > Shareholder information > Shareholder structure. For more information, please contact: Kurt De Baenst, General Manager Investor Relations, KBC GroupE-mail: IR4U@ Katleen Dewaele, General Manager Corporate Communication, KBC Grouppressofficekbc@ Attachment 20250602-pb-trp-en
NBC News
25-05-2025
- Health
- NBC News
Meet the Press – May 25, 2025 Fmr. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy, fmr. Rep. Patrick J. Kennedy (D-R.I.), Arthur Brooks, Lori Gottlieb, Nedra Glover Tawwab and Jean Twenge
KRISTEN WELKER: This Sunday: lost and lonely. More young Americans are struggling with feelings of isolation and anxiety than ever before. FMR. SURGEON GENERAL VIVEK MURTHY: I want us to begin a conversation as a country about what I see as a profound public health threat. KRISTEN WELKER: I'll speak with the former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy who says loneliness is one of the most urgent crises of our time. FMR. SURGEON GENERAL VIVEK MURTHY: Loneliness has serious effects on our mental health and our physical health. KRISTEN WELKER: Plus: seeking solutions. As experts link social media use with increases in loneliness, anxiety and depression, is keeping kids offline the right approach? SEN. KATIE BRITT: Our kids' worsening mental health is an emergency, and it's an emergency clearly and undeniably linked to social media. KRISTEN WELKER: Former Congressman Patrick Kennedy talks with us about the current debate in Congress on how to safeguard the next generation. And: the happiness formula. ARTHUR BROOKS: If you want to be a happier person that's where to look. KRISTEN WELKER: Harvard professor and happiness expert Arthur Brooks will share some solutions to the mental health crisis. Joining me for insight and analysis are: psychotherapist and author Lori Gottlieb; psychologist and author Jean Twenge; and therapist and author Nedra Glover Tawwab. Welcome to Sunday and a special edition of Meet the Press. ANNOUNCER: From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is a special edition of Meet the Press with Kristen Welker. KRISTEN WELKER: Good Sunday morning. The mental health crisis in America is impacting young people in profound ways, and public health officials say it is an emergency. Two-thirds of Gen Z report feelings of loneliness, and half of young adults report symptoms of anxiety and depression. Youth suicide rates are climbing; it is now one of the leading causes of death in adolescents and young adults. Almost one in five young adults report rarely or never receiving the social support they need. In our super connected times, over 55 million U.S. adults report frequent loneliness. The smartphones and social media apps that connect us to the world are also accelerating the crisis. Even before the Covid-19 pandemic hit, teenage depression doubled between 2011 and 2019. Unregulated social media platforms and the rise of artificial intelligence present unique challenges for the future, and there is bipartisan concern on Capitol Hill. [START TAPE] REP. KATHY CASTOR: Almost half of U.S. teens have experienced bullying or harassment online. Between 2010 and 2019, teen depression rates doubled with teenage girls seeing the sharpest increase. In -- in 2021 almost a third of girls said they are seriously considering attempting suicide. SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN: In the physical world, there are laws against this. It is only in the virtual space that it remains the wild west, and our children can be attacked every single day, nonstop, 24/7, 365. [END TAPE] KRISTEN WELKER: This morning we will devote the full broadcast to this important and critical topic. And joining me now is former surgeon general Vivek Murthy. He is the author of the book "Together: The Healing Power Of Human Connection In a Sometimes Lonely World" which addresses what he's declared is an epidemic of loneliness and isolation in America. Dr. Murthy, welcome back to Meet the Press. DR. VIVEK MURTHY: Thanks so much, Kristen. I'm so glad to be with you. KRISTEN WELKER: Thank you so much for being here for this important conversation. So as surgeon general, one of your top priorities was to tackle what you called an epidemic of loneliness and isolation, especially in young people, Dr. Murthy. Why is this such an important topic to focus on? And why did you make this such an important focus when you were surgeon general? DR. VIVEK MURTHY: Well, Kristen, this issue came as a real surprise to me. I didn't start my tenure as surgeon general thinking that I was going to focus on loneliness back in 2014. But what I had found as I traveled around the country is that people were telling me stories about loneliness everywhere I went. College students on campuses, surrounded by thousands of other kids, but saying, "I don't feel like anybody knows me. I don't feel like I can be myself. I feel alone." Parents were saying this. CEOs were saying this. Members of Congress were telling me they were struggling with loneliness. Everywhere I went, this is a challenge. And as I dug into the data, two things emerged. One is that loneliness is extraordinarily common. We've got over half of kids who are saying, for example, that they struggle with loneliness. And, by the way, kids across the population struggle the most. But it's also consequential. When you struggle with loneliness and isolation, it raises your risks of depression, anxiety, and suicide. But it also increases your risk of heart disease by 29%, stroke by 31%, dementia by 50% among older adults. And the overall mortality increase that can be related to social disconnection, is comparable to the mortality impact as smoking and obesity. That's how powerful and how important loneliness is. KRISTEN WELKER: Yeah. And just to delve into it, you say smoking. It actually, as you say in your book, 'Together,' it's the equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day, Dr. Murthy. That's a staggering figure. Explain the science behind those numbers, those figures that you just talked about. DR. VIVEK MURTHY: Well, it turns out that our connection with one another, this is not just a nice thing to have, it's biologically an imperative for us. It's something we need for survival, just like we need food and water. And when we're deprived of social connection, it actually puts our body into a stress state. We feel like we're under threat. Now, in the short term, stress can sometimes help you, right, when you're preparing for an exam or for a presentation. But imagine chronic stress that comes from chronic loneliness. That's when it starts to increase inflammation in our body, increase our risk for heart disease, and other conditions that ultimately shorten our life. KRISTEN WELKER: And when you were surgeon general, you actually went on a listening tour all across the country, to talk to families about what they were experiencing. Why is loneliness hitting young people so hard? What did you find? DR. VIVEK MURTHY: Well, there are a few things that have been happening. One is just, over time, we had just moved around more. We changed communities, changed jobs. We tend to leave the people we know behind. We also find that, over the last half century, in our country, participation in the kind of organizations that used to bring people together, faith organizations, recreational leagues, service organizations, has all declined. But what I worry about, for young people in particular, is the impact that technology is having on their social connection. We tend to think, "Oh. Kids are on social media. That's great because they're connected to one another." But, no, we have to recognize there's a difference between the connections you have online and the connections you have in person. And as more relationships are shifted online, we're realizing that, number one, more kids are struggling with this intense culture of self-comparison online which is shredding their self-esteem. A lot of them are trying to be somebody that they're not online. And they actually don't have as many friendships in person as we all need. So you put this all together and what you see is escalating loneliness and isolation. And I'll tell you this. The people who know about this most are young people themselves because they would tell me, all the time, how lonely they were. And one student that I talked to at a college, as I was traveling the country, he said to me, he said "How are we supposed to connect with one another, when it's no longer the culture for people to talk to each other?" And I had him repeat the question because I wasn't sure I heard him right, the first time. He's saying it's no longer the culture for people to talk to each other. And I saw that on college campuses. The first college I went to, I walked into the dining hall and it was quiet. KRISTEN WELKER: Wow. DR. VIVEK MURTHY: And I remember the dining hall being really loud in college. KRISTEN WELKER: Yes. DR. VIVEK MURTHY: But everyone is on their devices, their ears are plugged, you know, with their earbuds. And they're not talking to one another. KRISTEN WELKER: Wow. It's just staggering. That is a powerful anecdote. And you tell of meeting a mother, also, from Colorado whose – it's such a tragic story. Her daughter committed suicide after she was bullied online. And this is a mom who was deeply engaged in her daughter's activities online. Dr. Murthy, talk to the parents out there who hear stories like that and they are terrified but also concerned their children may be falling through the cracks. What's the message? And what are the warning signs? DR. VIVEK MURTHY: Well, listen, parents do have good reason to be worried right now. And many parents already are. The most common question I got from parents around the country was about social media. They asked, "Is this really safe for my kids?" And that was the reason I issued a surgeon general advisory on social media and youth mental health. Lori, the young mother that you mentioned in Colorado, who I met, was one of the most tragic stories that I encountered. But she did everything that you think a parent should want to do. She told her – talked to her kids about social media. She checked her daughter's phone every night, you know, before she went to bed, to understand what she was using and what she wasn't. But what she didn't know was that there were ways that her daughter could hide apps under other apps. Her daughter had multiple accounts that she didn't even know about. And she only realized after her daughter took her own life that she'd been mercilessly bullied and harassed online. And she saw just how her self-esteem had been shredded. Here's what I would tell parents. Number one, this is a journey that is difficult for any of us to make alone. And it's important for us to talk to each other, as parents, to come together and to support each other because right now a lot of parents think that everyone else has figured out and they're the only ones struggling. That is not the case. The second thing you should know, as parents, about technology and social media is delaying the use of social media for your kid as long as possible is important. And that's because the adolescent brain is not the same as an adult brain. If you look, biologically, young people's brains are in a different phase of development. They are more susceptible to social comparison, to social suggestion, their impulse control is not as well developed. And that puts them more at risk of the negative effects of social media. I would wait until, at least, after middle school. And in high school-- and this is what we're planning to do for my kids-- we're going to reassess, based on whether real safety standards have been put in place, what the data is telling us, and the maturity of our kids. But finally this, if your kids are already on social media, what do you do? I think it's important for us to create tech-free zones in their life, to protect the dimensions of a kid's life that are critical for their development, like sleep, like in-person interaction, learning, and physical activity. So that means no phones an hour before bedtime. You can get them back in the morning. To mealtimes, dedicate those to in-person, face-to-face conversation without devices. If we lead by example on this, as parents, we can do a lot to help our kids. KRISTEN WELKER: You actually, you just referenced this as surgeon general, called for warning labels to be placed on social media. And, look, social psychologist, Jonathan Haidt, he puts a number on what you were just saying. He says, "Kids should not be on social media until they're, at least, 16 years old.' It's a part of rewiring children's brains. Can you take us through the science of that? And at 16, I know you said after middle school, would you say 16 is the appropriate age? DR. VIVEK MURTHY: I think 16 is a very reasonable age for parents to consider as a threshold. And look, some kids might be very mature. Perhaps, some of them may be ready a bit earlier. Some kids actually may need more time past 16. But, I mean, 16 is a good benchmark. We know that our brain is evolving a lot during adolescence. And what we've also seen in studies is that kids who are, you know, using social media a lot, who have problematic social media use, we do see changes, both in the structure and the function of the brain. So the bottom line is these devices, these platforms, in particular, social media platforms, are having an effect on our children. And it's why what I have called on Congress to do is not only put warning labels on social media platforms so that parents and kids are aware of the risks that we see, but I've also called on Congress, even more importantly, to establish safety standards for social media platforms, so that, number one, data transparency is required. Researchers routinely say they can't get the full data about the impact of these platforms on our kids' health from the companies. But just like we did for cars a few decades ago, we'll be putting safety standards that got us seat belts, airbags, crash testing. And those have reduced the number of deaths. We've got to do the same for social media because what we're doing now, Kristen, is we're basically – it's the equivalent of putting our kids in cars with no seat belts, with no airbags, and having them drive on roads with no speed limits and no traffic lights. And that is just morally unacceptable. I think Congress has so far failed in its responsibility to protect our kids. But it's not too late. They need to step up and act now. KRISTEN WELKER: Absolutely terrifying comparison. And, Dr. Murthy, you say the way to actually keep kids off social media is to get a group of parents, a community. And I do want to talk to you about that idea, community. When you left office in January, you wrote what you call 'A Parting Prescription for America.' Not to eat less sugar, not to exercise more; it was two words. I want to put the two words up on the screen because they're powerful: Choose community. What is it, Dr. Murthy, about community, that is so powerful and important? DR. VIVEK MURTHY: Well, Kristen, over thousands of years, we evolved to be with each other. The people who went off on their own in our hunter-gatherer days and said, "You know what? I don't need anyone. I can be strong, independent, just do everything by myself," that person got eaten by a predator or they starved from an insufficient food supply. There is real strength in numbers. But I worry that in recent decades, what has happened is we've lost sight of how vital and important our communities are, as we've been pulled more into our devices. And as we can get everything delivered to our doorstep, we have less interactions with each other. But what I have found is that community really is what we all crave. It's what we need. And I know this because in the conversations that I have with people across the country, in big towns, and in small areas of the country, in rural and urban spaces, people talk about the fact that they just wish that people knew their neighbors again. They wished that we looked out for each other, that we gave each other the benefit of the doubt. Here's what community is. Community is where we know each other, where we help each other, and where we find purpose in lifting each other up. That's why relationships, purpose, and service, that is the core ingredients of community. It's also the triad of fulfillment. That's how I think of it. And I think part of the reason we are seeing so much unhappiness in our world right now is because these three elements of relationships, purpose, and service have eroded in many of our lives. And that's why I believe it's so important for us to build that back. It's why it was this focus in my parting prescription to America. And it's why going forward, long after I'm out of office, my goal is to do everything I can to help rebuild community in our country and beyond. KRISTEN WELKER: All right. Really critical information, Dr. Vivek Murthy. Thank you so much for being here. DR. VIVEK MURTHY: Thanks so much, Kristen. KRISTEN WELKER: Really appreciate it. And when we come back: seeking solutions. What can policy makers do to protect the mental health of the next generation? Former Congressman Patrick Kennedy joins me next. KRISTEN WELKER: Welcome back. Joining me now is former Congressman Patrick Kennedy of Rhode Island, a longtime advocate for better mental health policy. As a congressman, he co-authored the Mental Health Parity Act which forces insurance companies to treat mental health issues just like any other medical condition. His book 'Profiles in Mental Health Courage' offers inspiring accounts of Americans living with mental illness and addiction. Congressman Kennedy, welcome back to Meet the Press. PATRICK J. KENNEDY: Thank you, Kristen. It's great to be with you. KRISTEN WELKER: It is so wonderful to have you here for this really important conversation. PATRICK J. KENNEDY: We really appreciate Meet the Press taking this role of highlighting this issue and how important it is to the country. KRISTEN WELKER: Thank you. I appreciate that, congressman. Well, you've been a big part of the conversation, and you've been very outspoken about your own struggles with bipolar disorder, with addiction. You just heard my conversation with the surgeon general, talking about the fact that the country has a crisis, an epidemic of loneliness. How did we get here? PATRICK J. KENNEDY: Well, obviously, I think social media is the big culprit. The key here, is how are we going to get out of it? And we need to educate our kids about the coping mechanisms and problem solving skills, and how they can emotionally regulate. We've got to make that an essential skill in our schools because, let's face it, technology's here to stay. Stress and trauma's here to stay. What we need is to give kids the ability to mediate their emotions and understand that there are actually skills that they can deploy that will help them manage their feelings. And I -- you know, my wife's a public school teacher. Ten years ago, they had STEM education: science, technology, engineering, math. The business community said, "We need this for competitiveness." I would say today for competitiveness, employers need to insist that our public education system adopt skill-building in brain health, ability for kids to learn how to manage stress because you can't have all these Gen-Zs and beyond go to work and not be able to, one, focus on their job, or to be worried because they can't manage their intrusive thoughts, right? In recovery, in my own case, I get this education from my mental health therapist, from my 12-step recovery peers. And I -- my life has been transformed as a result. But I think about all those that don't get that. And I think to myself, "What a shame that we don't make this essential in the development of our children." KRISTEN WELKER: So it should just be in the schools just like any other class or -- PATRICK J. KENNEDY: Well, you know, Kristen, I got to rededicate the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center in Fort Bragg for the Green Berets. Do you know the Green Berets have more mental health for the Green Berets than any other branch of the service? You might say, "Why do the Green Berets need it? They're the strongest fighters that we have." Because the military's figured out that they can't have our special forces go into the field and have any distracting thoughts, have any intrusive thoughts. They literally need to be able to manage those intrusive thoughts so that they don't lose focus on the mission. And that's what we need for all Americans. KRISTEN WELKER: Let's talk a little bit about your book, 'Profiles in Mental Health Courage.' Congressman, was there a common theme that you found throughout these conversations about why people were struggling with mental health issues? PATRICK J. KENNEDY: Well, the delivery system, whether it's the regulations that create 50 different state licensures for clinicians, or the telehealth, which is a patchwork quilt of what's available, or it's the million different measurements for what constitutes outcomes, we are just not organized in this country. If we're really serious about making a difference, we need to simplify the system. We need to change the reimbursement model. And, by the way, if we want good results, we have to invest in a -- what I call a prevention fund of sorts. And we know about this reinsurance and this high risk fund. So what I would like is all the payers, the state, the Feds, to put in dollars based upon the actuarial impact of these illnesses. Foster care dollars, huge because parents are addicted and they have to be taken into state custody. Criminal justice dollars, over half of that is mental health and addiction. Why aren't we putting some of those dollars in a prevention fund where we can identify those people at highest risk and invest now? Because the current insurance model only reimburses within a year. If you can't show an ROI within a year, you've lost it. We need a prevention fund that can have an ROI over five, 10 years. KRISTEN WELKER: So you're saying structural change both in the -- the medical and insurance space, but also in terms of social media, which you mentioned and, of course, the surgeon general mentioned as well, especially for young people. I want to play something, part of testimony from Ava Smithing. She shared her story in Congress about struggling with an eating disorder. And she says she was encouraged on social media. Take a look. [START TAPE] AVA SMITHING: They stored my insecurity as data and linked it to all of my accounts across the internet. They used my data to infer what other types of ads and content I might like, leading me down a pipeline from bikini advertisements, to exercise videos, to dieting tips and finally to eating disorder content. I have a very specific memory of one post titled "Ballerina Diet," suggesting that the daily intake of only a black coffee, an orange and 16 almonds would keep me thin. [END TAPE] KRISTEN WELKER: It's hard to listen to that, congressman. And there's actually a bill being reintroduced in the Senate. It's called the Kids Online Safety Act. It would require platforms to take steps to mitigate exactly what we just heard from Ava. Do you think that type of legislation would make a difference? Is that what the country needs? PATRICK J. KENNEDY: So, here's the problem. Our country is falling down on its own responsibility as stewards to our children's future. We are commercializing marijuana across the country. How in the world, with kids' anxiety rates and depression rates, does it make sense to add to the addiction crisis by having more access -- you know, access to addiction products? Then you've got sports betting. Our states are becoming addicted to the revenue of sports betting. And I can guarantee you, just like you're playing that story about that young woman who's getting targeted, we already know the algorithms for these betting companies are targeting people who are high risk. And we are gonna see a high correlation between people with gambling addiction and suicide. And so what I'm saying, Kristen, is we can't just pass these bills. We've got to stop all of these intrusive addiction-for-profit companies from taking our kids hostage. That's what they're doing. This is a fight. And we are losing the fight because we're not out there fighting for our kids to protect them from these businesses that their whole profit motive is, "How am I going to capture that consumer and lock them in as a consumer?" KRISTEN WELKER: Well, you take me to my next question because the last time Congress passed legislation that was aimed at helping kids in this space was 1998. Congressman, why has it been so hard for Congress to act, as a former member of Congress? PATRICK J. KENNEDY: Well, the power of the social media giants and their money, there's going to be a bigger settlement by Meta and all the big social media companies than even was tobacco or Purdue combined. You know, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. We, as a country, have seen these companies and industries take advantage of the addiction-for-profit. Purdue, tobacco. Social media's the next big one. And unfortunately, it's going to have to be litigated. We have to go after the devastating impact that these companies are having on our kids. KRISTEN WELKER: Very quickly, Congressman, you have overcome so much. What is your message to families who are struggling right now? What can give them hope in this moment? PATRICK J. KENNEDY: Well, first, it's community. It's what Dr. Murthy was talking about. I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for just my family, but I go to 12-step recovery every single day. I love the Zoom meetings. But frankly, it's the in-person meetings that have saved my life because I go there and I'm one with all of my friends. No matter where and what walk of life they -- whatever their political party, we all share one thing in common, and that is the need to hold onto one another for our own survival. And that supersedes everything. I often go on Fox, one of your competitors, on the marijuana thing. And my phone lights up afterwards. I can't believe how many of my colleagues who I go to meetings with are watching Fox. And you know what? It just shows. It doesn't matter our political backgrounds. When we're in recovery, helping one another is our number one priority. KRISTEN WELKER: All right. The power of community. Congressman Kennedy, thank you so much -- PATRICK J. KENNEDY: Thank you, Kristen -- KRISTEN WELKER: -- for being here. Wonderful to see you, as always. When we come back, the happiness formula. Harvard professor and happiness expert Arthur Brooks shares solutions to the mental health crisis. KRISTEN WELKER: Welcome back. Joining me now is Harvard professor Arthur Brooks who studies and teaches the science of happiness and is the author of the upcoming book The Happiness Files. Professor Brooks, welcome back to Meet the Press. ARTHUR BROOKS: Thank you, Kristen. KRISTEN WELKER: Thank you so much for being here to be a part of this conversation. You just heard my past two conversations in which we talked about the epidemic of loneliness and anxiety. And with you, I want to talk about the other side of this, which is the happiness formula. You are the 'professor of happiness'. And you have developed a happiness formula. Can you lay it out for us Professor Brooks? ARTHUR BROOKS: Of course. You know, one of the biggest mistakes that people make is thinking that happiness is a feeling. And they're chasing a feeling which is not the way emotions work. Emotions don't-- they're not there to give you a good day, they're there to give you alerts to things that are opportunities and threats around thing to understand about happiness is that it's more tangible. The feelings are evidence of happiness. Actual happiness or the happiest people have a combination of three very concrete things in their lives. It's enjoyment of their life. It's satisfaction with their activities and accomplishments. And most importantly it's a sense of the meaning of their existence, the meaning of life. And that last pillar, that last macro-nutrient of happiness meaning actually lies behind the problems that we see today. When I'm looking at a large group of people, and I see a big unhappiness problem, I'm going to look for a barrier to one of those three things: enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. When I'm working with an executive or just anybody for that matter, I'm going to find a blockage. And that's what we find with people especially under 30 years old today, is a lack of a sense of the meaning of their lives. While they're looking for the meaning of their lives, they're doing all sorts of counterproductive things like scrolling on their phones, et cetera. But technology is not the root. Technology is part of the doom loop of meaning which is actually leading to the mental health crisis that we see today. KRISTEN WELKER: Well, let's talk about a book that you actually co-wrote with Oprah. It's called Build the Life You Want: The Art and Science of Getting Happier. And you say happiness is actually something that you need to work at. What is the first step toward that happiness journey? ARTHUR BROOKS: Well, to begin with, happiness, pure happiness, is not a goal that we can reliably actually try to hit in our lives. On the contrary, we have negative emotions for a reason. We have negative experiences as part of an ordinary life. And so the first thing that I teach my students is: You can't be perfectly happy. Don't say, "I want to be happy." Say, "I want to be happier." And the way to do that is by looking, for example, at the formula that we just laid out and getting strategies and habits in your life to get more enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. KRISTEN WELKER: Is there anything that you learned from Oprah about being happy in that experience of writing the book with her? ARTHUR BROOKS: Oh, my goodness. Yes, what a wonderful friend she has become over the last few years. And what I've learned from Oprah, it's funny, because in my work I have the opportunity to work with a lot of people in public life, people with huge media personas, for example. And they're generally different in public than they are in private, necessarily. I mean, you have a private life and you have a public life. Oprah is the same person. And this is part of her formula for happiness that we can actually all learn something from. The reason that, as she sees it, she enjoys a lot of the world's earthly rewards of, you know, money and power and the admiration of millions and billions of people around the world. She sees that that has been granted to her as an opportunity to lift other people up. And as such, she has a peace about her. So on the days when I'm a little bit stressed out and anxious, sometimes I'll text Oprah. So, and it helps me, because she's the kind of person that I would like to be more like her. KRISTEN WELKER: Well, it's incredible the two of you have this book that you co-wrote together. I want to ask you about something that you raise, Professor Brooks, which is this issue of technology, of social media. You heard me talking to Congressman Kennedy about it, to Dr. Murthy about it, as well. The average internet user in the United States-- I can't believe this-- will end up spending about 20 years online across the course of their adult life. It's hard to process that. Is there a way to be online and to be happy? ARTHUR BROOKS: There is. But, here is the basic formula. In any technology, not just the internet, not just-- any sort of computing or non face-to-face technology, all the stuff that we have around us, if it's a complement to your in-person relationships, it's beneficial. If it's a substitute for your in-person relationships, it's a problem. That's a lot of what Dr. Murthy was talking about. But that's the formula to think about for your kids and your own life. Is Zoom actually substituting for my ability to be with people in person? Is social media substituting for my real friends? If the answer is yes, you have a problem. On the other hand, if it's making actually your relationships richer, which means it has to be within certain bounds. You can't be doing it all day long. Then it can actually be part of a more rewarding life. And it won't turn into this doom loop where I'm bored and I'm lonely, so I turn to the internet. I turn to the apps. And that makes me more bored and lonely. I have a harder time finding the meaning of my life. And down and down it goes. That's like what Congressman Kennedy was talking about with alcohol and drugs. Alcohol and drugs are part of the doom loop in life. But you got to know why you're using, first of all. KRISTEN WELKER: Well, a profound way to think about it. In one of your columns in The Atlantic you cite a survey that suggests that more than half of young people actually say they want to be influencers. And you write that that can actually make you unhappier because to be so focused on oneself is not necessarily a healthy thing. What is your advice to young people in that space? How do you navigate that desire if you want to be an influencer versus the reality that it might not be the best thing? ARTHUR BROOKS: Well, understanding the truth is very important about this. The truth of the matter is that we have to understand ourselves as other people see us. But we have to be looking at and observing and experiencing our own lives as well. And the more that we're on our phones, the more effectively we are looking in a mirror. And there's a ton of evidence that shows that when you're looking in the mirror, you are not happy. You're less happy because precisely you're focusing on yourself. And so the mirror of it all is the biggest problem that people actually face. Being an influencer is like standing at a mirror, you know, all day long. And that's just sort of the secret, the fast path to depression and anxiety. Understanding that is the key to it. When young people actually understand what's going on in their brains, which is a lot of what I teach. I talk an awful lot about the neuroscience of these problems. And when they understand that psychology is biology, they have a lot more power. And that's one of the things we need to bring to the education for young people today. KRISTEN WELKER: You know, Professor Brooks, you also talk about faith and the fact that more and more Americans say they actually don't follow any organized religion. But you say it's not necessarily about that. That you can have faith. You can be faithful and that can be an important component to finding happiness as well. ARTHUR BROOKS: That's true. And the falling away of faith and all things like faith is a major contributor to this lack of life's meaning, as you can imagine. Now, when I talk about this with my students, I acknowledge. I'm a Catholic. It's the most important thing in my life, as a matter of fact. But really what we're talking about is transcendence away from looking in the mirror, being bigger than just you, standing in awe of the universe. And there are many things that people can actually do to get this transcendence, to get away from the tedium of the psychodrama of your own life. You know, for some people that means walking in nature or studying great music or starting a meditation practice or going back to church if that's actually what is part of your own life. But you need something. You need to transcend your ordinary life. Because if you won't, you'll be too much with yourself. And that's just not healthy. KRISTEN WELKER: Well, Professor Brooks, it's such important information, such an important part of this broader conversation. Thank you so much for being here today. We really appreciate it. ARTHUR BROOKS: Thank you, Kristen. Thank you for your attention to this. And we can solve this problem. We just have to do it together. KRISTEN WELKER: All right, I appreciate it very much. When we come back, our panel of experts is here with some advice about how to take on all of these mental health challenges. ANNOUNCER: To learn more about the books featured on Meet the Press, go to You'll also find new releases on history, biography and more. NBC News receives a commission for sales made through our website. KRISTEN WELKER: Welcome back. Our panel is here. Psychotherapist Lori Gottlieb, author of 'Maybe You Should Talk to Someone;' therapist Nedra Glover Tawwab, author of 'Consider This: Reflections for Finding Peace;' and Jean Twenge, psychology professor at San Diego State University and author of '10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World.' Thanks to all of you for being here. We really appreciate it. Jean, let me start with you because your research shows a really sharp rise in teen loneliness actually around 2012, just as smartphones, social media are taking off. Talk a little bit about why that has happened and why we are at the point where we are today. JEAN TWENGE: Yeah. I mean, that's the really stunning thing. It's not just that teens today are lonely. It's that they didn't used to be. Teen loneliness was actually trending down until about 2012, and then it just suddenly spiked upward, right at the time that people started to own smartphones, that Facebook bought Instagram, and that social media moved from optional to mandatory among teens. More and more teens started to say they felt left out, that they felt lonely. And it's not just social media. It's what social media replaced, because it's also around the same time they started to spend a lot less time with their friends in person. KRISTEN WELKER: Well, it's the loneliness epidemic that we just heard Dr. Murthy talking about. Nedra, what do you see as the biggest issues posed by social media and what can parents do about it? NEDRA GLOVER TAWWAB: People are seeking connection, and they're trying to get it on social media, and they're not getting it in real life because people are dissociating in person by being on their devices. So it's not helping with loneliness, but we think it is. It's giving us a false sense of connection, so we need to disconnect there and connect in real life. And really it should be a tool to facilitate in-person connection. KRISTEN WELKER: To build on in-person connections, not to replace it. And that's what's happening in so many instances. Lori, you talk about the fact that people are doom scrolling or binge watching and that that is such a big part of the problem. How do you see this issue playing out? How deeply ingrained is it? And what can parents do? A lot of families all across the country feel pretty helpless. LORI GOTTLIEB: Yeah, they do. You know, I think part of it is that we say one thing and we do another. The phones can be so addicting not just for our kids, but for us too. And so if we're sitting at dinner, and we hear a Tweet come in, or a text come in, or something, and we get up from the table, we're saying to our kids, "Don't do that, but we're going to do that." And so I think we need to be aware that we are just as addicted to our devices as they are and that we need to pay attention and put our phones down. KRISTEN WELKER: Well, so what is – let's talk about some potential solutions. Let's put our phones down. Jean, how do you foster that? How do you encourage your kids to do that? Once they pick them up, it's pretty hard. You heard Dr. Murthy saying, "Yeah, probably 16 is the right age to go on social media." The push and pull there is that some parents say, "I also don't want my kids to be outside of conversations that are happening at school." So how do you navigate that? JEAN TWENGE: Well, I agree. Sixteen really should be the minimum age for social media. And it's very tough for parents, because right now the minimum age is set at 13. It was a compromise in the early days of the internet. Even that is not enforced. Age isn't verified -- KRISTEN WELKER: Right. JEAN TWENGE: Parental permission isn't required. So we have ten-year-olds on TikTok and Instagram. I think pretty much everybody would agree that that's not a good situation. So parents have to try to take steps to keep their kids off social media. So if you want to do that, no social media until 16 is a great rule. It's one I suggest in the book. How are you going to do that? One way, delay giving them any phone, and especially delay giving them an internet-enabled smartphone that allows social media and internet. If you feel like they need a phone, give them one that texts and calls, maybe has a few other apps but does not have social media on it. It can be a flip phone. It can be a phone designed for kids. KRISTEN WELKER: Those old-fashioned flip phones, Nedra, are looking better and better by the minute as a mom of two. I think I'm going to go out and get some of those. You know, part of this challenge that we are facing as parents, as a community right now is AI, these AI chatbots that people are going online, they're having conversations basically with computers as if they are real people. What do you make of the AI surge, and what can parents and families do about that? Do you see that as a potential harm as well? NEDRA GLOVER TAWWAB: I think AI is good for some things, like checking your grammar. But for building relationships and connection, I don't think it's good for that. We have to learn those skills in real situations. And if we have this perfect companion in AI, if they're giving us the answer that we want to hear, that's not the friction that we need to really sustain our relationships. KRISTEN WELKER: Lori, get in on this conversation about AI, because I think a lot of people are wondering how it fits into this broader space. Here we are, so concerned about social media, and this is really another aspect of it. LORI GOTTLIEB: Yeah. I like what Nedra was saying about not having friction, because we need friction. That's part of relationships. And so I think that when people are using AI to kind of validate their position and they never get another perspective, I see in therapy people come in, and they'll say, "Oh, I had this entire conversation with AI about my issue with my partner." And of course AI is going to support what that person is saying. So I think that people need to understand what it is and what it isn't. And especially with our kids, like, you're saying you don't want them to have phones until 16. We need to talk to them about, "What are you doing on your phone? What is the difference between what you do on your phone and what you do in person?" Because there's space for both. People-- someone who might not find a community out in the world, they might find it online. But then can you use that to find ways to meet people in real life? So it's not that technology is bad. It's: can we be more intentional about how we use it? KRISTEN WELKER: Jean, how do you see AI? Is it about being intentional and helping kids to navigate it, particularly if they are going online and having conversations almost to supplant friendships? JEAN TWENGE: I think that's going to be a big problem going forward. So my youngest kid is 13, so she has one of those phones designed for kids. But on the games, ads will come up, and some of the ads, a good amount of the ads that she gets are for AI boyfriends and girlfriends. And really young kids are being exposed to this. Now she can't click out and actually go sign up for one of these on her phone. But a lot of kids can. And what does that mean for their relationships going forward, that it's not a real relationship? It's going to, you know, be frictionless. It's going to say what you want it to say. And then that becomes that standard where-- how are they going to have a relationship with a real human being? KRISTEN WELKER: Yeah, to that point about, "How do you start to foster relationships," Lori, your book actually talks about loneliness and what to do about it. And just having one conversation with one person can make you feel that much less alone. What can someone do who feels so lonely they don't even know how to take that first step? LORI GOTTLIEB: Yeah. I think people think that you need a lot of people in your life to not be lonely, and that's not true. What you need is you need quality relationships, even with one or two people. And you also need these small social interactions during the day. So there's a whole body of research in the last few years that have shown that if you talk to people on the subway, you know, while waiting in line, instead of pulling out your phone, so if you look at people waiting in line somewhere or, you know, getting food, wherever you are, everyone's on their phone. No one's talking to each other. Any small interaction that you can incorporate into your life actually has shown it improves people's sense of well-being. Even doing it for a week improves your sense of well-being and decreases your sense of alienation and loneliness. KRISTEN WELKER: Nedra, what do you think works in terms of creating those connections? Again, sometimes just taking that first step. NEDRA GLOVER TAWWAB: I would say making something consistent. If you go to a coffee shop, going to the same one around the same time so you're seeing the same people. That familiarity can help you become less guarded and open to saying hello and open to building community and connection. I know that there are some people who are shy about speaking up, but I certainly think we have to do it when we're not engaged in our devices. If we think we have this connection in this community that we've built online, ask someone to come and help you with something. KRISTEN WELKER: Yeah. NEDRA GLOVER TAWWAB: Like a real thing. And we don't find that in these communities that we have, but we can find that in real life. KRISTEN WELKER: Yeah. Jean, you've obviously studied this generation. What do you think we will see moving forward? How does this conversation evolve? How does this issue evolve? JEAN TWENGE: Well, I think the danger is that we know from a lot of research the younger someone experiences depression, the more likely it is it's going to recur later in life. So I think Gen Z's going to be living with this for a long time. What encourages me is the conversations among teens, among young adults about more regulation around social media. A lot of those groups are advocating for that. Teens are having these conversations. So I talk at schools, often to high school and middle school students. And they will have these conversations with their friends of, "Hey, if I don't text you back right away, I'm not mad at you. I'm taking a break from my phone." And, "Hey, maybe let's not set up our plans on Instagram or Snapchat. Let's use texting to do that," to try to find other ways to communicate that might be healthier. KRISTEN WELKER: Yeah. Nedra, quick final thought from you. What gives you hope in this moment? NEDRA GLOVER TAWWAB: I think we've done this with other technologies, where we have figured out how to live with the technology in front of us. And we can do that with devices. We can do it with social media. We just have to practice some new skills. KRISTEN WELKER: Yeah. Lori, finally to you-- What gives you hope as you look to the future? LORI GOTTLIEB: What gives me hope is that teens are really talking about this. When there was this, you know, question of the TikTok ban, a lot of teens were saying, "That might be good. That might be good. We love our TikTok. We don't want to lose it. But at the same time, let's think about maybe whatever happens with TikTok, can we be more aware of how we're using it?" And I think the fact that they're aware that it's a problem means that they're willing to make some changes. KRISTEN WELKER: All right, thank you all so much for being here today for this really important conversation. We really appreciate it. Well, as we do every Memorial Day weekend, we pause to remember the U.S. service members who gave their lives in the past year in service to our country. Please take a moment to reflect on their sacrifice. KRISTEN WELKER: Welcome back. Forty percent of US high school students reported feeling sad or hopeless in 2023 and 20 percent had seriously considered attempting suicide. In 1999, Second Lady Tipper Gore joined Meet the Press to discuss the importance of addressing health concerns for the youngest generations. [BEGIN TAPE] TIPPER GORE: Suicide is the second leading cause of death among adolescents. When I talk to kids, what I hear from them is their concern for other kids that they know who might be headed for trouble or who are in pain, who need help but are afraid to reach out and get it. They're ashamed. Well, if I go to a mental health professional or if I go to the counselor, everyone's going to make fun of me. So that's preventing them from getting the help they need. Children that become withdrawn and isolated, they may be suffering from depression. They may attempt suicide. This can be prevented if we, as adults and children, listen to the early warning signs and take action when we know that we have an early warning sign. I think that that's the key, that we need to say to kids, "You need access to mental health help just like you need access to textbooks.' [END TAPE]
NBC News
18-05-2025
- Business
- NBC News
Meet the Press – May 18, 2025
KRISTEN WELKER: This Sunday: out of office. My exclusive interview with former Vice President Mike Pence. FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: I've never been a fan of American presidents criticizing America on foreign soil. KRISTEN WELKER: His thoughts on the second Trump administration and the direction of the Republican Party. FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: There's no question in this administration that he is surrounded, it appears to me, with people that -- that nurtured his more protectionist instincts. KRISTEN WELKER: Plus: trade tensions. President Trump returns from his trip to the Middle East amid new concerns about his trade war, as the world's largest retailer warns higher prices are on the way. JOHN DAVID RAINEY: But the level of tariffs that have been proposed is pretty challenging for all retailers, for suppliers, and -- and certainly our concern is consumers are going to feel some of that. KRISTEN WELKER: I'll talk to Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent. And: listening in. Audio of former President Joe Biden's interview with the special counsel investigating his handling of classified documents renews the debate over his fitness for office. FMR. PRES. JOE BIDEN: Trump gets elected in November of 2017. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: 2016. FMR. PRES. JOE BIDEN: '16. 2016. KRISTEN WELKER: I'll talk to Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent Andrea Mitchell; Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS Newshour; Ashley Etienne, former communications director to Vice President Harris; and Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday, it's Meet the Press. ANNOUNCER: From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker. KRISTEN WELKER: Good Sunday morning. President Trump returns to Washington after his trip to the Middle East, and he is touting what he says are new critical investments in the U.S. economy. It comes as his agenda back home is facing new challenges, and as he's planning for direct phone calls with the leaders of Russia and Ukraine on Monday. Against that backdrop, I sat down with his former Vice President Mike Pence on Friday at his home in Indiana. [START TAPE] KRISTEN WELKER: Let me ask you about President Trump's first official overseas trip to the Middle East -- FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: Yeah. KRISTEN WELKER: -- this week, where he met with the newly installed president of Syria. He dropped all of the sanctions against that country despite Israel's opposition. The trip included stops in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE, but he did not stop in Israel. Sir, what message do you think President Trump's trip sent to Israel overall? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: Well, first off, I think it was a very successful trip for the American economy. The president secured financial commitments in all three countries, including a historic contract for purchasing Boeing aircraft that'll really support American jobs. And I don't gainsay that. But, Kristen, I've never been a fan of American presidents criticizing America on foreign soil. And to have the president in Saudi Arabia questioning America's global war on terror, and describing it as nation-building and interventionist, I thought was a disservice to generations of Americans who wore the uniform and who took the fight to our enemy, you know, in Afghanistan and in Iraq. And particularly giving that speech in Saudi Arabia, where 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers hailed from, not including Osama bin Laden, I thought was unfortunate. KRISTEN WELKER: Let me ask you about another aspect of President Trump's trip. He said that he was going to accept a $400 million luxury jet from Qatar to use as a temporary Air Force One. He said he'll eventually donate that to his presidential library. Do you think President Trump should accept a military aircraft from Qatar? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: Well, I think first we've got to remember who Qatar is. We've got a military base there. I have members of our immediate family that have deployed to the region. But Qatar has a long history of playing both sides. They support Hamas. They supported Al Qaeda. Qatar has actually financed pro-Hamas protests on American campuses across the United States. So, the very idea that we would accept an Air Force One from Qatar I think is inconsistent with our security, with our intelligence needs. And my hope is the president reconsiders it. I think if Qatar wants to make a gift to the United States, they ought to take that $400 million and plow it into infrastructure on our military base. KRISTEN WELKER: So you're saying President Trump should turn down this plane? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: I think he should. I think -- look, others have observed or there are profound issues, the potential for intelligence gathering, the need to ensure the president of the United States is safe and secure as he travels around the world and of course also there are very real constitutional issues. The Constitution prohibits public officials from accepting a present, in the words of the Constitution, a present from a foreign state. Now they may have some basis through chain of title for avoiding that, but I think it's just a bad idea, and my hope is the president will think better of it. KRISTEN WELKER: Let me ask you about an issue that you raised. President Trump's tariffs obviously have been a big theme of this second administration. President Trump says foreign countries pay for the tariffs. He says they're going to make the country rich. And yet you have said, you've called them the 'Trump Tariff Tax'. Why? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: Well, first off, the initial reciprocal tariffs that he unveiled would be the largest peacetime tax hike on the American people in the history of this country. As I said, I'm glad he's paused that. And as we're seated here, I understand the president is going to make an offer to 150 countries. But, look, he and I have talked many times about trade. Here in Indiana, we're one of the leading exporting states in the country. What we make here, what we grow and raise here we sell around the world. I've always believed that trade means jobs. But I came to respect President Trump's willingness to use the threat of tariffs to negotiate, as we did with the new trade deal with Canada and Mexico. We renegotiated South Korea. We were well down the road of a trade agreement with Japan, with the U.K., with the EU during our time. But there's no question in this administration that he is surrounded, it appears to me, with people that nurtured his more protectionist instincts. And as the president has said to me many times, he has a sense that other countries pay tariffs when the reality is when Americans buy goods overseas, the company that imports those goods in this country pays the tariff and more often than not passes that along in higher prices to consumers. And I worry about inflation. We just heard Walmart made the announcement that they'll be raising prices in the wake of these tariffs. My view of tariffs overall is this: We ought to be aggressively negotiating for free trade with free nations. We ought to use the threat of leverage to bring down trade barriers and subsidies. KRISTEN WELKER: Well, to that point, let me ask you about the tariffs from the first term. They added some $80 billion in higher prices for Americans, increased prices on things like tires and washing machines. Why didn't you say they're a tax during the first administration? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: Well, I – I probably did in the hallways, but the president gets to make the decision. KRISTEN WELKER: You told President Trump that directly? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: Well, sure. But look – KRISTEN WELKER: So how did he respond? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: –when you're vice president of the United States, my view is always this: I'd favor the president with the full range of my opinion in private. And then when he made the decision, my job was to support his decision absent some higher calling or higher obligation that one has. And I – I fully supported his approach on tariffs, but I was never confused about who pays tariffs. KRISTEN WELKER: Let me ask you about the war in Ukraine. There were talks in Turkey this week between Russia and Ukraine, but none of the principals were there. President Zelenskyy wasn't there. President Putin was there. President Trump wasn't there. President Trump said the only way to get a deal is for him to meet with Putin face to face. Knowing what you know about Vladimir Putin, Mr. Vice President, do you think he will be - ever be serious about making a deal? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: It's been roughly three years since Russia launched its unprovoked, brutal invasion into Ukraine. Hundreds of thousands of lives have been lost. At the outset of the war, I actually traveled with my wife across the border to a refugee center. Saw hundreds and hundreds of women and children of every age fleeing from the Russian invasion. I would return there a year or so back, and meet with President Zelenskyy, and hear again about the horrors and depredations of the Russian military. Look, I've – I've met Vladimir Putin. My judgment is Vladimir Putin only understands strength. And President Zelenskyy has agreed to a ceasefire, 30-day ceasefire that our European allies called for. Vladimir Putin calls a meeting that he doesn't show up for. So, I honestly think the time has come for President Trump to impose harsh sanctions on Russia and also to increase military support for Ukraine. I think those two messages, making it clear, in combination with the president's good recent dialogue with President Zelenskyy that took place at the Vatican. And in addition to the new mineral deal, which I think sent a deafening message to Moscow that America and Ukraine are here to stay, I think the time is now for sanctions against Russia, additional sanctions against Russia, Kristen, and also renewed military support for Ukraine. I think that and only that has the potential to bring Vladimir Putin to the table and achieve a just and lasting peace. KRISTEN WELKER: Last month President Trump directed the attorney general to review two people he considers to be political foes, including Chris Krebs, who's the election official who called the 2020 election the most secure in American history. Do you ever worry that President Trump will order an investigation into you for your actions on January 6? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: I – I don't worry about it. I regret some of the rearview thinking this administration's been doing for people that did their job. Some of the cancellation of security details around people like Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and John Bolton I think have been regrettable. But, you know, elections are about the future. And I think the American people elected President Trump to return to the White House to focus on the future. And if I had a word with him, I'd – I'd encourage him to keep eyes forward and – and embrace the better angels of his nature in all these issues. KRISTEN WELKER: You were recently awarded the John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage Award for your actions on January 6. President Trump pardoned nearly 1,600 people who were criminally charged in connection with their actions on January 6. You said that pardoning people who assaulted law enforcement, quote, "sent the wrong message." What message did those pardons send, sir? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: Well, first let me say I was deeply humbled by the recognition that we received from the John F. Kennedy Library. President Kennedy was a hero from my youth. Still is. And to be in any way associated with his – his legacy and Americans that he wrote about in his famous book was one of the greatest honors of my life, and I'm truly grateful. But look I – I will always believe by God's grace I did my duty that day to support and defend the Constitution of the United States and see to the peaceful transfer of power. But individuals who broke into the Capitol, who assaulted police officers, I said that day and I believe to this moment should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Now I will say, Kristen, I know there were people that came into the Capitol that day that just walked through an open door, meant no harm, did no harm. Those people, every single one of them, if they were caught up in the legal system, they should have been pardoned. But the people that engaged in violence - you know, we're at the end here of Police Week in Washington, D.C. That's where the families of fallen officers come to our nation's capital every year to remember those who died in the line of duty. And the heroes on January 6 were all wearing uniforms. I mean, they held the line. They made it possible for us to secure the Capitol, reconvene the Congress, and complete our work under the Constitution the very same day. And for my part, I – I – I will always believe to have pardoned the people that assaulted police officers that day was wrong. KRISTEN WELKER: Would you ever consider running for president again? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: I – I – You know, I don't – I don't see that in my future. You know, our family's been blessed in so many ways. I mean, I'm a guy that grew up in a small town here in Indiana. I just dreamed of being the congressman from my hometown. And I got to live that dream. But the opportunity to be governor here in Indiana, to go on to be vice president of the United States was beyond anything I imagined. And I had the chance to run for president. We did that last time. But I – I will tell you from my heart, Kristen, what I feel is my calling is exactly what called me to the Republican Party in the days of Ronald Reagan. And that is that I – I want to be a voice for conservative values. I want to be a voice for the policies and liberties enshrined in the Constitution of the United States. That's what – that's what defines us as Americans. I want to be a champion of the conservative cause. And that's where I'll stay focused, and we'll let the future take care of itself. KRISTEN WELKER: So just to be very clear, do you rule out running for president ever again based on what you're saying? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: Yeah, I – I – I have no plans. I don't see it. But, as I said, we'll – we'll keep standing for everything we've always stood for, and we'll let the future take care of itself. [END TAPE] KRISTEN WELKER: We will have more of my conversation with former Vice President Pence coming up later in the broadcast. But first, when we come back, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent joins me next. KRISTEN WELKER: Welcome back. There are new economic warnings after the credit ratings agency, Moody's, downgraded the United States' credit rating one notch from its AAA rating. Moody's citing concerns over the nation's rising debt. It comes as President Trump's tax bill suffered a setback in Congress this past week. Joining me now is Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent. Secretary Bessent, welcome back to Meet the Press. SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: Kristen, good to see you. Thanks for having me on. KRISTEN WELKER: It's wonderful to have you on after a long foreign trip. Thank you for being here. Let's start right there with Moody's downgrading the nation's credit rating. And they do cite the debt. I want to read you a little bit of what Moody's says. It says, quote, "If the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act is extended, which is our base case, it will add around $4 trillion to the deficit over the next decade." Several Republicans, Mr. Secretary, are citing similar concerns. Does the president's tax bill need to do more to address the nation's debt and deficit? SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: Well, Kristen, first – first of all, I – I think that Moody's is a lagging indicator. I think that's what everyone thinks of credit agencies. Larry Summers and I don't agree on everything, but he said that's when they – they downgraded the U.S. in 2011. So it's – it's a lagging indicator. And just like Sean Duffy said with our air traffic control system, we didn't get here in the – in the past 100 days. It's the Biden administration and the spending that we have – have seen over the past four years. We inherited 6.7% deficit to GDP, the highest when we weren't in a recession, not in a war. And we are determined to bring the spending down and grow the economy. KRISTEN WELKER: Fair enough. But under President Trump's first administration he added $8 trillion to the nation's debt in his first term. So there's plenty of blame to go around. Let me – SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: No, no, no, no, no. But let's review. We were in the rescue portion of Covid. The Biden – the Biden administration was in the recovery portion. And Kristen, it would've been if not for Senators Manchin and Sinema, who are no longer the – in the Democratic caucus, that it would've been $4 trillion or $5 trillion more. KRISTEN WELKER: It did include the – the tax cuts as well. But let me ask you about Walmart, this big news from Walmart. It says it will start raising prices on its consumers, Mr. Secretary, as early as this month due to the tariffs. Now, President Trump out with a very stern warning on social media saying Walmart, quote, "should eat the tariffs," adding the company made far more than expected last year. Is the president asking American companies to be less profitable? SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: I – I was on the phone with Doug McMillon, the CEO of Walmart, yesterday. And Walmart is in fact, going to, as you describe it, eat some of the tariffs, that – just as they did in '18, '19, and '20. The other thing, though, that we are seeing that Doug passed along to me, that with their consumers, the single most important thing is the gasoline price. Gasoline prices have collapsed under President Trump. So we – we are seeing that. The other thing that will happen, that is a direct tax cut for consumers. Then the transportation costs are also a big input. So let's see what happens. What you're describing was Walmart's earnings call. The other thing the companies have to do, they have to give the worst case scenario so that they're not sued. So you know, I – I think overall we are seeing a decline in services, inflation, and I – and we saw inflation come down for the first time in four years. KRISTEN WELKER: Well, you know, in my conversation with former Vice President Mike Pence, he says he sees tariffs as a tax. How far, Mr. Secretary, is the president, is the administration willing to go to prevent CEOs from increasing prices? SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I – I think what we are hearing here is tax – people are saying tax increases are inflationary that – when I was testifying before Congress last week, one of the congressmen said that. And I said, "Well, Congressman, if taxes are inflationary, let's cut taxes." So let's get this tax bill done, bring down taxes, which according to this line of thinking, should be disinflationary. KRISTEN WELKER: But the Federal Reserve has said that tariffs are inflationary. Just to be very clear, you said you called Walmart. Is that what CEOs can expect, that you, that the president, that other members of the administration will apply pressure to try to prevent them from passing on these prices to CEOs? SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: I – I didn't apply any pressure. The – the – Doug and I have a very good relationship, so I just wanted to hear it from him rather than – than second, third-hand from the press. And again, as I said, this is all from their earnings call. And on an earnings call, you have to give the – the worst case scenario. Kristen, to go back to what you said, the Federal Reserve is not saying that tariffs will cause inflation. They're saying they're not sure, and that they're in wait and see mode. KRISTEN WELKER: Let's talk about the other big news that you were a part of a week ago in Switzerland, negotiating with China's officials. You and the administration lowered tariffs from the high rate of 145% to 30% for 90 days, to allow talks to continue. But President Trump had said previously, and I'm quoting from him, "China needs to make a deal with the U.S. We don't have to make a deal with them." So why did the United States back down? SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: Neither side backed down. Both sides realized that this, as I had said, the – was unsustainable. So we had the equivalent of an embargo, which is not what either side wanted. You know, it was this constant tit-for-tat escalation. So both sides brought the tariffs down by 115%. So for 2025, we have increased tariffs on China by 30%, they have increased them by 10% on us. We now have a mechanism in place to continue talks. KRISTEN WELKER: Okay. On Friday, as a piece of this, President Trump, while he was on the foreign trip, said that countries should expect letters from you, from Secretary Lutnick, saying this is what the tariff rate is going to be. Mr. Secretary, does that effectively mean that these negotiations with other countries are over? And how high should they expect tariffs to go? Above 10%? SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: This means that they're not negotiating in good faith. They are going to get a letter the – saying, "Here – here is the rate." So I would expect that everyone would come and negotiate in good faith. KRISTEN WELKER: You expect that rate, though, that you would slap on any country that you think is not negotiating in good faith to be above 10%? SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I think that it would be the April 2nd level. Some countries were at 10%, some were substantially higher. And the negotiating leverage that President Trump is talking about here is if you don't want to negotiate then it will spring back to the April 2nd level. KRISTEN WELKER: I have to ask you about the war in Ukraine. President Trump saying he is going to speak with President Zelensky and Putin on Monday. Former Vice President Pence told me, "It is time to impose harsh sanctions now." What say you, Mr. Secretary: is it time to impose sanctions against Russia? SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I think we will see the – what happens when both sides get to the table. President Trump has made it very clear that if President Putin does not negotiate in good faith that the United States will not hesitate to up the Russia sanctions along with our European partners. What I can tell you is the sanctions were very ineffective during the Biden administration because they kept them low because they were afraid of pushing up domestic oil prices. KRISTEN WELKER: Very quickly, how long for the timeline until you move to sanctions? Obviously there's a call. But if the president doesn't feel like there's progress how much time is he going to give them? SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: I – I – look, I – I'm not going to tie the president's hands in his negotiations. KRISTEN WELKER: Let me ask you, former Vice President Mike Pence echoed several of President Trump's, quite frankly, own allies in expressing concerns about this plane that Qatar has offered to President Trump. They are saying it sends the wrong message. It sends the wrong message and raises concerns ethically, raises concerns constitutionally and about security. Why is it appropriate for the president to accept a $400 million jet from Qatar? SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: Well, it's not the president accepting it, it would be the United States government. And Senator Mullin said this weekend that the talks had actually begun under the Biden administration. So – but Kristen, what I can tell you is I think this is an off-ramp for many in the media not to acknowledge what an incredible trip this was. You know, President Trump has brought back trillions of investments in the United States. Every stop we made, the – the enthusiasm in – in Saudi Arabia, in Qatar, in the United Arab – Arab Emirates to invest in the United States that they want to push more and more, they have funds here. And if we go back to your initial question on the Moody's downgrade, who cares? Qatar doesn't. Saudi doesn't. UAE doesn't. They're all pushing money in. They've made ten-year investment plans. So this administration, we're doing peace deals, trade deals and tax deals. KRISTEN WELKER: And just very, very quickly, President Trump has said he plans to keep that plane in his presidential library after. But what do you say to some Republicans who argue it sends a message that the United States can be bought, or that other countries can curry favor if they offer gifts? SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: I say that the gifts are to the American people. These trillions of dollars of investments that are going to create jobs in the U.S., whether it's the UAE building this gigantic aluminum plant in Oklahoma, whether it's these data centers that Qatar is going to do, is $600 billion on its way to $1 trillion from Saudi, it all accrues to the American people. KRISTEN WELKER: All right, Secretary Bessent, I know you've had a long week traveling with the president. Thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it. SEC. SCOTT BESSENT: Good to see you. KRISTEN WELKER: Great to see you. And when we come back, Democratic Senator Chris Murphy joins me next. KRISTEN WELKER: Welcome back. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Senator Murphy, welcome back to Meet the Press. SEN. CHRIS MURPHY: Yeah. Thanks for having me back. KRISTEN WELKER: Thank you so much for being here. SEN. CHRIS MURPHY: Of course. KRISTEN WELKER: You just heard my conversation with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent. We were talking about the president's tax bill. Secretary Bessent argues it will create hundreds of billions of dollars in economic growth. You obviously are one of the Democrats who opposes this bill. Are Democrats standing in the way of the economic growth that Secretary Bessent was just arguing? SEN. CHRIS MURPHY: Well, what we're standing in the way of is the most massive transfer of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the rich in the history of the country. This budget bill is an absolute disaster. It is going to kick over ten million people off of their healthcare -- Medicaid covers about a quarter of all Americans -- in order to pass along a new trillion dollar tax cut for the richest 1 percent. Nobody in this country is asking for that. And in addition, it's going to dramatically drive up the deficit. I heard the Treasury Secretary say that 'who cares about the downgrading of our credit rating from Moody's'. That is a big deal. That means that we are likely headed for a recession. That probably means higher interest rates for anybody out there who is trying to start a business or to buy a home. These guys are running the economy recklessly because all they care about is the health of the Mar-a-Lago billionaire class. They only care about their corporate friends. They are going to destroy this economy. They are going to throw millions of people off of healthcare just so that they can pass along a benefit to a small handful of very rich Americans. That is deeply unpopular. And my hope is that it won't pass-- that enough Republicans see that nobody is asking for that massive investment in only a small handful of Americans-- that they'll vote against it. KRISTEN WELKER: Let me ask you, you raise the issue of Moody's downgrading the nation's credit rating, and of course, they do cite the debt that the nation has accrued, of course, over decades in Democratic and Republican administrations. Why didn't Democrats do more to address the debt when you all were in power? SEN. CHRIS MURPHY: Well, I think it's important to remember that some of the most important legislative achievements during Joe Biden's presidency were done in a way that reduced the deficit. In fact, the Inflation Reduction Act, which made massive investments in renewable energy, reduced prescription drug costs, was done in a way that drove down the deficit, not driving the deficit up. Most of the deficit that was added under Joe Biden's presidency was in those early days, when we were still recovering from the pandemic. But there's just no doubt that it was Donald Trump who added more to the deficit than any president in the history of the country. And he is on pace to do it for a second time. It's going to crater the economy. And listen, it won't have an impact on his billionaire friends. His Mar-a-Lago crowd will come out all right. But it will impact the regular people I represent in New Britain, Bristol, and Bridgeport, Connecticut. KRISTEN WELKER: Former President Biden did see $4 trillion added under his administration. I would like to talk about former President Biden. Newly released tapes from Mr. Biden's 2023 interview with Special Counsel Robert Hur show him really struggling to recall key moments, including the dates, the death of his son Beau, as well as when former President Trump, at the time, former President Trump, was elected. Take a look. [START TAPE] FORMER PRES. JOE BIDEN: What month did Beau die? Oh, God. May 30th. RACHEL COTTON: 2015. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 2015. FORMER PRES. JOE BIDEN: Was it 2015 he had died? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It was May of 2015. FORMER PRES. JOE BIDEN: It was 2015. BOB BAUER: Or I'm not sure the month, sir, but I think that was the year. MARC KRICKBAUM: That's right, Mr. President. FORMER PRES. JOE BIDEN: And what's happened in the meantime, is that -- as -- and Trump gets elected in November of 2017? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: 2016. FORMER PRES. JOE BIDEN: 16. 2016. [END TAPE] KRISTEN WELKER: Senator, is this audio proof that President Biden shouldn't have run for reelection? SEN. CHRIS MURPHY: Well, I - I don't know that that's a particular fair excerpt. That's a very emotional topic for the president. But obviously, in retrospect, the president should have gotten out of the race earlier. There's no doubt that the Democratic Party would have been better served by having the ability to have an open primary. Kamala Harris probably would have done very well in that process. But in retrospect, we lost. And so you can defend the way in which our politics played out. I mean, listen, what I -- I've said is that, you know, like anybody who reaches that stage in their life, you know, there is some level of diminishment. But I got to work with the president pretty closely in 2022, in 2023. And I saw a president who was passing legislation and helping the American people at a pretty unprecedented rate. That being said, by 2024, the American people had decided that they wanted somebody new. They wanted somebody younger. And it was a mistake. It was a mistake for Democrats to not listen to the voters earlier and set up a process that would have gotten us in a position when we could've been more competitive that fall. KRISTEN WELKER: Let me ask you this. The new book, Original Sin, by Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson, goes even further and actually details what they call a cover-up from the White House, from top aides around the president. Here's a little bit of what they have written, quote, "One senior White House aide, who left because they didn't think Biden should run again, confessed to us that 'we attempted to shield him from his own staff so many people didn't realize the extent of the decline beginning in 2023.'" Do you think some top officials in the Biden White House covered up the state of his mental health at the time? SEN. CHRIS MURPHY: Well, I -- I haven't read the book, and so I don't know what to say about the allegations they make. But I know that I worked with him throughout 2022 on the gun bill, which has saved, by the way, thousands of lives. He was intimately involved in those negotiations. I was in the White House in the fall of 2023 doing an hour-and-a-half long meeting on some really complicated developments in the Middle East. And I saw a president who was in control. So I -- that's my experience. But I admit that by 2024, the American public had made up their minds, right, that they wanted the Democratic Party to nominate somebody new. And it was absolutely a mistake for the party to not listen to those voters. KRISTEN WELKER: Just to be very clear, do you bear some responsibility as well? SEN. CHRIS MURPHY: Oh, I think we all bear responsibility. Listen, and I think, you know, we maybe didn't listen as early as we should have in part because we have immense loyalty to this man who had led this country out of a pandemic, who had been maybe the most prodigious legislator as a president-- the Inflation Reduction Act, the Infrastructure Act, the bipartisan gun bill-- in a generation. But ultimately, in retrospect, you can't defend what the Democratic Party did because we are stuck with a madman, with a corrupt president in the Oval Office. And we should have given ourselves a better chance to win. KRISTEN WELKER: Well, let me ask you about part of my conversation with Treasury Secretary Bessent in which I asked him about that $400 million jet that Qatar is offering to the president, to the United States. President Trump said it would be, quote, "stupid not to take it." What is your response to that argument, that the U.S. deserves the biggest plane and President Trump says it's actually going to ultimately save the U.S. money? SEN. CHRIS MURPHY: So why did he choose these three countries to go to for his first major foreign trip? It's not because these are our most important allies or the most important countries in the world. It's because these are the three countries willing to pay him off. Every single one of these countries is giving Trump money: the plane from Qatar, and investment in his cryptocurrency scam from the UAE, and they are asking for national security concessions in return. This is the definition of corruption: foreign governments putting money in the president's pocket and then the United States giving them national security concessions that hurt our own security. By the way, the plane is not a gift to the American people, as the secretary said. It is going directly to Donald Trump. That library will take a decade to build. And so once he leaves the White House, until the library is built, he gets to use that plane to fly around all of his billionaire friends while his policies result in millions of Americans losing their healthcare and having to pay higher costs. That is the definition of corruption. KRISTEN WELKER: All right, well, we'll watch how it all unfolds. I know Democrats are discussing various ways to potentially try to block it. Senator Murphy, thank you so much for being here. SEN. CHRIS MURPHY: Thank you. KRISTEN WELKER: I hope you'll come back soon. Appreciate it very much. When we come back, former Vice President Pence shares what his relationship is like with President Trump now. KRISTEN WELKER: Welcome back. Former Vice President Mike Pence left Washington in 2021 and ran for president against his former boss in 2024. In my conversation, I asked Mr. Pence what his relationship is like now with President Trump. [START TAPE] KRISTEN WELKER: You, of course, recently saw President Trump at the funeral for former President Jimmy Carter. Do you ever talk to him? Does he ever reach out to you for any counsel at this point? FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: You know, there were difficult days at the end of the administration. But what's not widely known is that the president and I parted very amicably, that he thanked me from the tarmac of Andrews Air Force Base and my family by name for the service we'd render to the country and to him, and we'd speak several times a month in the days after we left office. The day I went to the inauguration, the president called me. We talked for an hour about conversations I'd had with people on the platform. But what saddened me was, several months after we left office, he returned to much of the same rhetoric that he had used in the run up to that fateful day of January 6. Again, talking again about the election being stolen, suggesting that I could have had the ability to overturn the election. And that was where I just came to the conclusion that we best part ways. And I did see him at the Carter funeral and we had a warm exchange. I stood up, I shook his hand, and I said, 'Congratulations, Mr. President.' And I could tell you, he softened and said, 'Thanks, Mike.' And I congratulated the first lady as well. It was, it was a good moment. And I I pray for the president often, and I want him to be successful. [END TAPE] KRISTEN WELKER: And when we – Oh, you can see my full interview with Vice President Pence at And when we come back, President Trump's agenda meets resistance from the courts and Congress. The panel is next. KRISTEN WELKER: Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent Andrea Mitchell; co-anchor of PBS NewsHour Amna Nawaz; Stephen Hayes, editor and CEO of The Dispatch; and Ashley Etienne, former communications director to Vice President Harris. Andrea, let me start with you, a lot to unpack. President Trump coming off of his first foreign trip. I discussed that to some extent with Secretary Bessent. And it comes as he's preparing for these key talks on Monday with President Putin -- ANDREA MITCHELL: Exactly. KRISTEN WELKER: – with President Zelenskyy. What are you hearing about the talks and the fallout from the trip? ANDREA MITCHELL: Well, right now the secretary of state today is meeting, along with JD Vance, the vice president, with Zelenskyy at the Vatican. In his homily, Pope Leo at his inaugural mass, called for peace in Ukraine and of course Gaza as well. But with President Trump talking to Vladimir Putin, he has never pressured Putin in any conversation that we know of. He has pressured Zelenskyy. And so we don't know what's going to come out of that. There is growing support for sanctions. You heard, of course, Secretary Bessent said that they wouldn't hesitate. And there's now Lindsey Graham says, more than 77 votes, pushing 80 votes, in the Senate, bipartisan support for that. But there were other big outcomes of this trip. He did – the opening to Syria is a big deal. The overtures to Iran possibly could be, you know, a landmark deal. But what others are talking about, I've talked to top diplomats in – among our closest allies, they're concerned that, first of all, the deals that Secretary Bessent talked about, a lot of those were negotiated under Joe Biden. Those take years to negotiate. He's taking credit, President Trump is, for them. And secondly, there was a lot of dealmaking by his sons and a lot that was being done for his own advantage. They've been very open about this. And it's frankly disturbing what they are talking – what diplomats, among our closest allies, are talking about, the normalizing about what they criticize as personal corruption that is taking place this term, not to the extent that it certainly was maybe was behind the scenes last term. KRISTEN WELKER: Yes. Amna, let's talk about the deals. Because that is sort of a big overarching theme of this administration. Here you have President Trump trying to get a deal with Congress for his agenda as he's trying to get this deal to end the Russia-Ukraine war. How do you see all of this unfolding at what is really a critical juncture here? AMNA NAWAZ: Well, obviously the Russia-Ukraine deal is going to ride on whether or not Putin is acting in good faith. And we see no indications that he is so far. It's worth noting Russia launched the largest drone attack in the history of the war overnight on Ukraine. And that probably tells you everything you need to know about how Putin sees this moment. So big questions on that. On the budget deal back here, look, this is a key part of President Trump's second term agenda when it comes to cutting taxes and border funding and spending. The fact that that did not pass with Republican support in the budget committee, it's a setback for the president, obviously the concerns there are people calling for more cuts. They're concerned about exactly the things that you cited with Secretary Bessent, that this could add $4 trillion to the deficit over ten years. But the history here matters here as well, right? This has not yet reached the full chamber. President Trump was away. What I'm hearing from White House officials and others is when he gets back, he's going to get more personally involved. He's already used his social media megaphone to apply some pressure, saying Republicans need to unite around this. We've seen him call individual lawmakers, twist arms, get things across the finish lines. And Republican lawmakers haven't stood up to him yet on any of the major issues, whether it's rescinding congressionally-appropriated funds or pushing through his nominees for the Cabinet. It's hard to see if they're going to stand up to him on the one thing that matters most for his agenda. KRISTEN WELKER: Stephen, so much is riding on this bill as Amna points out. And it does come against the backdrop of Moody's downgrading the nation's credit rating, the tariff wars that continue, and you heard Secretary Bessent in response to Walmart saying they're going to have to pass some of these prices on, saying Walmart said to him they will eat some of the costs – not all of them, but some of them. I mean, talk about this moment from a political perspective for the president because there is a lot on the line here. STEPHEN HAYES: Yeah, there sure is. Look, we witnessed the death of a talking point on your show this morning and with President Trump's post yesterday on social media. The president has made the case for years, including repeatedly throughout his campaign, that foreign countries pay tariffs. That's not true. As Scott Bessent told you today, Walmart is going to eat some of the tariffs. This is something the president encouraged Walmart to do yesterday. Well, Walmart doesn't need to eat the tariffs if foreign countries are paying them. So we know that that's not true. I mean, I don't think anybody who's paid even casual attention to tariff policy in the past understood that what the president was saying wasn't true. But we've seen the death of a talking point. It'd be better if we have that conversation based on economic facts and history rather than rhetoric. KRISTEN WELKER: It's a fascinating point that he really did put a fine point on that idea that tariffs are paid ultimately here in the U.S. Ashley, I have to turn to you and turn the conversation to former President Biden, all of the revelations this week. I do want to read something that a Biden spokesperson said about that audio that we heard from his conversation with Special Counsel Hur. He said 'the audio does nothing but confirm what is already public.' Take us inside your conversations. How much does this moment hurt Democrats? ASHLEY ETIENNE: I mean, I agree with the spokesperson. I don't think it really has any impact. But this is how I see it. The real question is: Why release this tape now? And it's clear to me that President Trump released the tape because he's trying to distract from his disastrous – unprecedented – disastrous first 100 days. I mean, we've all been talking about that at the table today. So to me that's what's at play. Imagine a situation where you're so desperate, so under water on every issue that you play your best card in the first six months of an administration. So the way I see this is: This is good for Joe Biden. It's good for the Democratic Party, because we can dispense with this now and not closer to the midterm election -- KRISTEN WELKER: You think it's good for Joe Biden? ASHLEY ETIENNE: Meaning – KRISTEN WELKER: – it does raise new questions about his decision not to get out sooner as you just heard Chris Murphy say. ASHLEY ETIENNE: Well, I do believe that I think the problem with the Democratic Party right now is that we've not produced an autopsy, we've not produced an assessment of what actually happened in the election and to address this issue head on. If we were to, we can reconcile, coalesce, speak with one voice, and move past it. KRISTEN WELKER: Andrea, what are you hearing? Tough moment for potential 2028 contenders. ANDREA MITCHELL: I mean, there's – there was a lot of affection for Joe Biden, but it really has evaporated to a great extent because of how terrible the Trump presidency, in your description, Ashley, has been in the first hundred days but mostly because people remember what they saw. You know, what are you going to believe: me or your lying eyes? People saw the debate. And immediately after the debate they realized, Democrats as well as Republicans gleefully on their part, that this was a terrible mistake, that he should not have run. Whether or not he and his family and his closest advisors thought he was up to it then, they had to look forward four years, five years by the time the campaign was over and that his health would have continued to diminish. He was not aging well. He didn't look well. And people wanted a change, and they wanted a primary. And President Obama – former President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, were right about that, but nobody was willing to really push hard enough and certainly the caucuses did not move quickly. KRISTEN WELKER: Amna, I keep hearing this word "trust," that Democrats feel like they've got to rebuild trust at this point. AMNA NAWAZ: And I think that is the challenge. To Ashley's point, Democrats are going to be asked about this now on the back of the book, on the audio being released. If you had a concern that Biden was too old before, some of these things confirm that now. What I will say, the consistency that I'm hearing from some Democrats when they're asked about this, as I know you asked Senator Murphy – I've been asking senior Democrats when I speak with them too — people who were close to him who saw him regularly even in the final months of office maintain to this day they never saw anything like what they saw at the debate in private, and they also say it's not going to be an issue for them in 2028. STEPHEN HAYES: But, I mean, I'm sorry. That is crazy. That's crazy for them to say. And one of the things that this book does is it provides chapter and verse, detail after overwhelming detail that they did know and that everybody – ASHLEY ETIENNE: And here's the real question – STEPHEN HAYES: And, look, the public knew. We knew. We knew. We watched it-- KRISTEN WELKER: Andrea's saying they don't have a leader. That's part of the problem. ASHLEY ETIENNE: That is a part of the problem. But, you know, the question is: How does Joe Biden respond in the next few days as this book sort of unfolds? I really think the issue is that this runs some risk for perceptions of his legacy. There's two issues. We could either look backwards, litigate the past, or move forward. But Joe Biden's going to have to determine that. He's going to have to weigh in. If his team continues to be defensive on this issue, it's going to compound the problem for the party internally and externally. And it's also going to have implications for perceptions of his legacy -- STEPHEN HAYES: This is his legacy. This is his legacy. KRISTEN WELKER: It absolutely is. Great conversation. Thank you all for being here. We covered a lot of ground. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday it's Meet the Press.
