Clerical sex abuse: Pope Francis's thorniest challenge
When Pope Francis took over in 2013, the Catholic Church was embroiled in a global scandal over child sex abuse by priests, and the institution's attempts to cover it up.
The pontiff sanctioned top clergy and made reporting abuse mandatory, but victims said more can and must be done.
- Criticised commission -
In December 2014, Pope Francis established an international panel of experts to recommend how to protect minors, but the commission was mired in controversy from the start.
Two members representing abuse survivors resigned in 2017, including Marie Collins, who was raped by a priest in Ireland when she was 13 years old and who decried as "shameful" the lack of cooperation from Vatican officials.
In March 2023, the commission's last remaining founding member, prominent German Jesuit priest Hans Zollner, resigned expressing concerns over "responsibility, compliance, accountability and transparency".
- Turning point in Chile -
Pope Francis's trip in January 2018 to Chile, where a clerical paedophilia scandal had caused outrage, was a turning point.
Francis initially defended a Chilean bishop against allegations he covered up the crimes of an elderly priest, demanding the accusers show proof of his guilt.
He later admitted making "grave mistakes" in the case -- a first for a pope. He summoned all of Chile's bishops to the Vatican, after which they all submitted their resignations.
- McCarrick affair -
In February 2019, in a historic first, Pope Francis defrocked former US cardinal Theodore McCarrick after he was found guilty by a Vatican court of sexually abusing a teenager in the 1970s.
McCarrick had been known for having sex with adult seminarians, and the year before, the Vatican's former ambassador to the United States, Carlo Maria Vigano, accused Pope Francis of ignoring years of allegations against the cardinal.
A Vatican report in 2020 acknowledged errors by the Catholic hierarchy and found former pope John Paul II ignored advice against promoting McCarrick, but largely absolved Francis.
- Unprecedented summit -
In February 2019, the pope convened the heads of 114 bishops conferences from around the world with the head of the eastern Catholic Churches and superiors of religious congregations for a four-day summit on "the protection of minors".
It heard devastating accounts from abuse survivors and searing criticism from within the Church.
German Cardinal Reinhard Marx, a close adviser to the pope, dropped the bombshell that bishops' offices might have destroyed files on clerical abuse suspects.
The pope promised an "all-out battle" against abuse, comparing child sex abuse to human sacrifice.
- Legal changes -
In December 2019, the pope made complaints, testimonies and documents from internal Church trials available to lay courts. Victims were able to access their files and any judgements.
The same year, he made it compulsory to report suspicions of sexual assault or harassment to Church authorities -- and any attempt at a cover-up.
In 2021, the Catholic Church updated its criminal code for the first time in nearly 40 years to include an explicit mention of sexual abuse by priests against minors and disabled people.
However, victims continued to complain that clergy were still not obliged to report abuse to civil authorities under Church codes, and anything said in the confessional box remained sacrosanct.
- A mixed record -
On his foreign trips from Canada to Belgium Pope Francis met with survivors of abuse and regularly issued calls for forgiveness.
But while he did the most of any pope to combat the scourge, campaigners say he has never acknowledged what might be the "systemic" causes of abuse within the Church.
He was criticised for not meeting the authors of a major report into sexual abuse within the Church in France, and urging caution in interpreting its claim that, about 330,000 minors had been abused over 70 years.
Critics also say he should have been more decisive with Marko Rupnik, a Slovenian priest and world-renowned mosaic artist accused of abusing a community of adult religious women in the 1990s.
Under pressure, the pope waived the statute of limitations in 2023 to allow potential disciplinary proceedings.
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Austria in shock after school shooting by former pupil leaves 11 dead
Austria was in mourning on Tuesday after a gunman opened fire at a secondary school before taking his own life, leaving a total of 11 people dead. The suspected perpetrator was a 21-year-old former pupil, who used two legally owned weapons to carry out the horrifying attack, according to Austrian authorities. Chancellor Christian Stocker called the incident a "national tragedy" in a post on X, as European leaders offered their condolences. The identities of the victims have not been confirmed by police, although the APA news agency reported that one adult woman had died of her injuries in hospital. Of the nine victims initially reported shortly after the attack early on Tuesday, six were female and three male, Interior Minister Gerhard Karner said. A further 11 people were also injured, some of them seriously. The minister said the perpetrator never graduated and that his motive was still being investigated. After carrying out the rampage, he died by suicide in a bathroom at the school. The general director of public security, Franz Ruf, told broadcaster ORF that police found a suicide note, but that the document did not include a motive for the shooting. Austrian media have speculated that the man may have been bullied as a pupil. "This horror cannot be put into words," Austrian President Alexander Van der Bellen wrote on X. "Austria is in mourning." Shots fired on Tuesday morning Police said the shots were fired at an upper secondary school around 10 am (0800 GMT), with special units quickly responding to the scene. Students at such schools are typically 14 years and older. In some of the first details to emerge from inside the school, the father of a boy who was present said the suspect intentionally shot pupils in a classroom. The son said he threw himself to the floor and played dead, the man told broadcaster Puls24. He said his child saw three schoolmates being killed with his own eyes, but escaped unharmed, along with his brother. The building was evacuated, with students and teachers escorted to a safe meeting place, and some 300 police officers were deployed. Parents and uninjured students were taken to nearby buildings and cared for by crisis intervention teams, the city said. Police wrote later on X there was "no further danger" and that the "situation is secure." A spokesman for the local Red Cross said more than 160 rescue workers were sent to the scene. Several rescue helicopters were also in operation, while a special emergency protocol was activated to ensure medical care for numerous injured individuals. European leaders 'horrified' by shooting European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen wrote in German on X: "The news from Graz hits home. My thoughts are with the victims, their families, and friends." "Schools are symbols of youth, hope, and the future," she added. "It is difficult to bear when schools become places of death and violence." European Council President António Costa said he was "horrified by the news of the school shooting in Graz." "A senseless act of violence in a place where children should feel safe and protected," he wrote on X. German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier and Chancellor Friedrich Merz also extended their condolences over the deadly shooting. "It was with great dismay and deep sadness that I learnt of the act of violence in Graz, in which so many innocent people lost their lives," Steinmeier wrote to his Austrian counterpart Van der Bellen. "Your German neighbours are with you in their hearts," Steinmeier said. Merz sent a message to Stocker, saying he was "deeply shocked that young people were torn from their lives so abruptly." Three days of mourning to be announced Austria will observe three days of national mourning following the deadly shooting. A minute's silence will be observed across the country on Wednesday. Flags at the presidential office, the chancellery and other official buildings are to be flown at half-mast during the mourning period. Graz, in south-eastern Austria, is home to around 300,000 people.
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an hour ago
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American Servicemembers Share Thoughts On Marines In LA
As the protests in Los Angeles against ICE continue, the Trump administration announced it would be sending in 2000 additional National Guard soldiers as well as 700 active duty Marines. According to Reuters, they will "protect federal personnel and property" as the administration carries out "even more operations to round up suspected immigration violators." Governor Gavin Newsom has filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration, claiming that the President did not have the legal authority to call in the National Guard, as well as requested a temporary restraining order to stop the use of the National Guard and active Marines "for law enforcement purposes." This is the first time that active duty military members have been called up to assist with law enforcement since 1992, and unsurprisingly, many of them (as well as veterans) have thoughts on the topic. NotSlayerOfDemons asked, "Those in the American Armed Forces, how do you feel about troops being used to quell unrest in-country?" and servicemembers, both active and former, did not hold back in these 28 responses: "Former Army. Unrest is when the citizens are trying to send a message to the government. Using troops against your citizens is the government's way of not listening." —cobra7 "Marine here. (Once a Marine, always). Iraq vet. I definitely do not agree with using the Marines. Hopefully, they used MPs with riot training, but using infantry to do police work is not smart. It's like trying to use a trained attack dog to herd sheep. What do you think those teenagers are going to do when someone starts throwing rocks at them?" "USAF veteran. We swear an oath to the Constitution. Not to any regime, party, or person." "Trump is creating his Reichstag fire. Take the time to look this up if you aren't familiar with it." —RuralMNGuy(The Reichstag fire was a fire that burned down the Reichstag building, which housed the German parliament, in 1933. The origins of the fire remain unclear, but it became propaganda for Hitler's Nazi government, and he used it to issue the Reichstag Fire Decree, restricting free speech, freedom of the press, and allowing him to begin arresting members of the opposition parties.) "As a Marine vet, this fucking sucks. These kids are 18-22 years old and don't know shit about what the Constitution allows or what the Posse Comitatus Act is. They are taught enough not to harm an unarmed civilian, but decades of training for combating guerrilla warfare makes people jumpy. If protesters start throwing Molotov cocktails, or god forbid shooting, then shit gets real for these kids quick. I am afraid that if anything happens, it's going to put a black eye on the Corps that will never be forgotten by the American public." "As a vet, I will say it comes across as totalitarian. There is no reason to use active duty military against your own citizens. There's a great quote from Battlestar Galactica: 'The police and the military have always been separate for a reason. One serves and protects the people, the other fights enemies of the state. When the military does both, the enemies of the state tend to become the people.'" "Army veteran and a SoCal native of 30 years here. Glad to see the President not allowing California to burn to the ground. Everyone knows the governor wasn't going to intervene." —ChinMuscle "Man, that makes me think of the saying 'When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.' That's the really scary part of having the military do the policing, isn't it?" "Telling soldiers to stand on the street with weapons drawn doesn't quell unrest. It provokes unrest." "Honorably discharged Army Veteran here (Gulf War era) I can say that I and my fellow vet friends think that these troop deployments are fucking terrible. Horrifying, actually." —PSadair "This is what the National Guard is for. Putting active duty military personnel on the streets of America to play policeman is a mistake." "I served in the Marines, and I'm glad I don't have to sit there and think, 'Question the legality of this and get an NJP [Non-Judicial Punishment], or go and potentially be put in a situation where they'll have me on trial in The Hague in a few years…'" "I'm not active, but former military. I think it's wrong. It's an overreach on presidential power. Plus, it's hard enough getting the everyday American to support our troops these days without deploying them to attack our own civilians." —crash218579 "Retired Marine here. There are units in the military trained for this. Active duty infantry units are not those units. They can say all they want that they are trained in de-escalation, but in reality, it's maybe 1-2 days of training a year and maybe some rapid last-minute refreshers as soon as they found out they were getting sent to LA. The bulk of their training and instincts are to destroy the enemy. This will not go well." "Former Army here — it's complete bullshit. Let law enforcement enforce the law, let the military do military operations. To be honest, they were waiting for any reason to do this because they want to 'send a message,' but the message that's sent isn't what they think it is. I feel sorry for those soldiers sleeping on the hard floor with no plan of provisions for water/food, not abroad in a war zone, but in downtown fucking LA." "Former Marine, from Los Angeles, from immigrant parents. Fuck this administration. I hope those troops remember their oath to the US Constitution and to the people of the nation. I'm so disappointed with this whole situation." —Tacos_and_Yut "I think following the orders of a 34-count felon who is responsible for attacking the Capitol of the USA is reprehensible. I sincerely regret my service to the USA and wish I could take it back. It will not happen again." "I don't support violent protests. I also don't support Marines being used to quell said protests. Marines are a tool you use to destroy an area or group of people, not to peacefully resolve it. The guard makes more sense here, but the best answer is just keeping it at the police level." "GWOT [Global War on Terrorism] veteran here. This shit is absolutely wack. The United States has used the National Guard MANY times throughout its history, albeit for civil unrest or not. The National Guard does an impeccable job at this, and to hear the National Guard is being utilized isn't too concerning." "The VERY large, stomach churning moment is the President giving the green light to utilize 2/7 out of Twentynine Palms. These are not 'peacekeepers.' Their motto is fucking literally 'First to Fight.' They have a long history of intense combat operations from WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, and GWOT. This is a highly decorated combat unit within the US military's young, war-fighting, men against the people the thought they were protecting is going to be a disastrous clusterfuck."—NSTalley "I support the National Guard being used to protect federal buildings and to quell riots and obstruction to the enforcement of federal law." "Served in the Navy from '09-'13. The bulk of these guys have never deployed, which is a badge of honor. Young, untested 18-22 year olds with guns seems like a really bad idea to me." "As a Veteran I am pissed that I spent 4 years defending this country only to have some idiots vote for and support a Christo-Fascist government and despite all evidence still believe this is going to be a 'good' thing." —MediocreDecking "Retired Navy here and also a former Marine. Sending an infantry battalion (2/7) to assist the LAPD and the National Guard is the wrong move. There are whole-ass battalions of Military Police who are specifically trained for this scenario. Why weren't they sent? Every active duty/veteran I know is against this." "It's a complicated issue. Most service members take their oath to defend the Constitution seriously, which includes the rights of Americans to protest. Using the military for domestic unrest should be an absolute last resort, not the go-to option. We're trained to engage enemies, not fellow citizens." "Marine here, many of the brothers and sisters I served with came from immigrant families and communities in LA or ones just like them. I'm sure there's a few Marines who are on board with this crap but many are really struggling with this, I can guarantee you." —skamatiks671 "Nobody likes the idea that this administration is attempting to politicize the military. It's awkward for us. The way the Secretary of Defense talks is vile, unprofessional, and embarrassing. Recruiting and retention will plummet." "It's an accident waiting to happen." —kozmo30 And finally, "Real take, most of them don't particularly care and just want to do their job and go home, regardless of the situation. Marines are people and lean slightly right — so you do have people who are giddy about 'enforcing order' — but nobody wants to be dressed up in full kit in LA summer heat." What do you think? Let us know in the comments.
Yahoo
4 hours ago
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‘It's church with butt jokes': Kevin Smith looks back as ‘Dogma' turns 25
More than a quarter of a century after its release, Kevin Smith's Dogma remains one of the most ambitious and inventive films about spirituality Hollywood ever made. Smith's fourth film, it took the signature, wisecracking verbosity of Clerks, Mallrats, and Chasing Amy and combined it with the filmmaker's interpretation of the Catholic beliefs by which he'd been raised. 'Woke' before the term existed, Dogma featured a female God, a Black Jesus (at least, according to a Black Apostle), and a series of increasingly unconventional portrayals of other divine figures. Yet armed with a killer cast that includes Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Linda Fiorentino, Alan Rickman, Chris Rock, Salma Hayek, and Alanis Morrissette (as God, naturally), today the film has endured as a surprisingly reverent — and to many viewers, relatable — portrait of religious faith, interrogated and restored in a journey that culminates in the filmmaker's hometown of Red Bank, N.J. More from GoldDerby 'Raw nerve fear': 'The Boys' team open up about filming the final season while ice skating Gary Oldman on 'Slow Horses' being 'an extraordinary show to work on' and 'one of the highlights of my career' Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate on playing best friends in 'Dying for Sex': 'It was love at first sight' For better or worse, it was also the third of Smith's films distributed by Miramax Pictures, who retained ownership even after cofounder Harvey Weinstein was sentenced to 23 years' incarceration for rape. After several failed negotiations, event cinema and distribution company Iconic Events acquired the rights to Dogma and announced a limited theatrical rerelease for this month. Ahead of the repertory screenings across the U.S. and Canada, which began June 5, Smith spoke to Gold Derby about the experience of reclaiming one of the biggest films of his career. In addition to discussing the necessary change to Dogma's credit block (now, minus Weinstein) he made for its resurrection, Smith recalled the momentary combination of critical and commercial muscle that led to it getting made, the influences (liturgical and cinematic) that inspired him during production, and its impact and legacy on his work and career. (For good measure, he also addressed Kanye West sampling Smith's dialogue for the 2024 song 'Back to Me,' and waxed philosophical about exhibition now that he owns a movie theater of his own in Jersey. Gold Derby: As heretical as George Lucas' Special Edition cuts may have been, when you were able to reclaim ownership of , did you think at all about any changes or new edits you might like to make? Kevin Smith: There was a question of, do we include cut footage? There's a sequence where Silent Bob sang the theme to Fat Albert, and there was another sequence about Azrael, the Jason Lee character. But ultimately, we defaulted on the side of "let's show them the movie they remember." When we go to home video and we do a steelbook and stuff, that's when we can absolutely integrate the scenes again — if folks want that. I'm personally always of the mind that, whatever went out, that was the director's cut, and I didn't want people to be sitting in the theater going, "I don't remember this." Quentin Tarantino called your previous film, , a great leap forward for you as a director. Did that reaction embolden you as you started making this film? Dogma was always more ambitious than the talent behind the film, i.e., myself. I started writing it before Clerks, and it was called God — very ambitious. It was the movie that I always knew we were going to have to do a bunch of stuff before this ever happens. You needed some money to tell that story. I remember when I shared it with Affleck, he came down here to Red Bank to hang out and then he was like, "Can you drive me home to Boston?" I was like, "No, you can take a train." He goes, "But I don't have nothing to do on the train." And I was like, "You got 60 pages of that Chasing Amy script you could read — that I wrote for you." And he's like, "Yeah, but that ain't gonna last me to Connecticut. What else you got?" So I said, "Well, I got this old script called Dogma that I wrote and it's 250 pages." When he got home, he called me up. I was like, "How was Chasing Amy?" He goes, "Guy falls in love with a lesbian? Great. But this Dogma movie, man, that's pimp. Can I be Bartleby? And I said, "The only way that movie gets made is if we cast a major movie star. There's no way they let you play Bartleby." So we went and made Chasing Amy and then we also co-executive produced Good Will Hunting, me and Scott Mosier, and that worked out like crazy. And since Ben and Matt wanted to do Dogma next, that was the only time I had enough juice and influence and cast to pull the trigger on that movie and have somebody finance it. And I'll never forget the first day we were shooting with Ben — right before we roll, he looks over at me and goes, "I guess I'm a major movie star now." It sounds like producing opened a lot of the doors that didn't. It was always going to be an uphill battle getting it made — never mind the content — just in terms of it was beyond my directorial abilities. We were supposed to do it for $4 million, but because Good Will Hunting had done so well, we were able to talk Miramax into upping it to $10 million. So, by that point, even though people like Quentin said nice things about Chasing Amy, having been to both sides of the spectrum, I never even believed the good stuff on Clerks. Thank God, otherwise, I would have been suicidal after the bad stuff on Mallrats. So, it was just me going, "We've got to go for it now, whether I'm ready for it or not." You had made your debut at a similar time as Quentin and other indie upstarts. Were you comparing notes at all? I'll be honest with you: a month before we made the movie, I called up Robert Rodriguez and I was like, "Would you direct Dogma for me?" I was like, "I'm not good enough to make this movie." And Robert's big advice was like, "Kevin, you got this. Just don't stand people against a wall this time." And thank God we had Robert Yeoman, you could do worse for a world-class DP, for heaven's sakes. Even a year later, I don't think I would've had the juice to do it. Thanks to the success of Dogma, then I had juice — and I chose Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. I don't know if that's a waste of my chits, but I stand by them. You've got to understand, I had no plan. Somebody on the road during the Q&As was like, "What's your endgame?" And I was like, "Honestly, I just wanted to make Clerks.' I wish somebody had told me, this is the beginning of a 31-year journey. I would have been more prepared! But I've just been making it up as I go along, and in retrospect, that was the moment that put a lot of wind in my sails for the next 10 years. Because after Dogma, I started making movies that everyone hated. Not everyone but critics were just not in my corner as much. It was back to the Mallrats days. Rewatching , it occurred to me how much the beginning feels like where Bartleby and Loki are just going around killing people. Were there films, in either structure or substance, that inspired you as you were writing it? Oddly enough, there are movies that I'll point to and it'd be like, "That's a model for Dogma?" But they were the movies that made it possible. Number one and probably the biggest influence is a movie called Foul Play, with Chevy Chase and Goldie Hawn. The whole third act of Dogma is predicated on their third act, and that movie also deals with religion in a controversial way — which I didn't think we were doing. I didn't think we were making a controversial movie! It turned out to be, but I thought it was a pretty reverent flick. But going into it, Pulp Fiction was a massive model because we had just seen it in Cannes. In fact, that's when it went from God to Dogma, after I saw Pulp Fiction and I was like, "You can switch tones on a dime like that." I remember being like, "I can't wait to go home and redraft Dogma." So it went from being God to Dogma, it became more violent and also [had more] tonal shifts. So, it owes a lot to Pulp Fiction — the bravado, the bravery of what Quentin did with his storytelling in that movie. I'm trying to think what other movies ... A Man for All Seasons, the Fred Zimmerman movie. Honestly, I never knew this but Linda Fiorentino pointed it out when we were making the movie, she was like, "Kevin, structurally, it's absolutely The Wizard of Oz." And I'm not an Oz kid and I have nothing but appreciation for it, but it was undeniable when she said it, whether I knew it or not. Iconic Events The film offers a sort of 'legalese' version of scripture and religious beliefs. Roger Ebert had said, 'You don't need a catechism to see the movie, but it really helps.' It's crazy, this is a movie that unveiled a lot of Catholic school kids across my life. Roger Ebert was definitely one. Years later when I was on The Colbert Show, [Stephen] Colbert came in and started quoting the movie and knew it fairly well. But the weirdest person that ever reached out to me was a guy who was like, "I know your buddy Affleck and he gave me your email address and I saw your movie Dogma because of him. I thought it was absolutely wonderful, but I need to know what Jesuits you studied under because, clearly, this is the work of Jesuit teaching. Please get back in touch with me. Signed, Tom Clancy." How much of that approach was born of your own growing skepticism about religion? Interestingly enough, I've been watching it every night because I'm on tour with the movie, and what I love about the movie is it plays like a prayer, like a child's prayer — or a stoner child's prayer, to say the least. And I tell the kids every night, "This was the young me's version of expressing his faith." I'd sat in church my whole life and nobody seemed to celebrate their faith, they all seemed to be mourning it. This is my idea of what church could be: church with butt-f--king jokes in it. So, when I watch it, I see what the kid who made it, who wrote it and directed it was after, this was his prayer. And I remember making the movie and [George] Carlin, we're the third act and it's outside the church when all hell's about to break loose. So, right before we go, Carlin, a good old lapsed Catholic himself was like, "Hey, man, what is the plot here?" And I'm explaining the whole thing to him and he's looking at me the way an adult looks at a kid when a kid overexplains Star Wars. And finally he goes, "You really believe in all this shit, don't you?" And I was like, "Yeah, I was raised Catholic. You were raised Catholic, you don't?" And he goes, "No, I'm smarter than that." And so, that was the beginning of the end. I'm certainly not laying my lack of faith at Carlin's feet but, when the smartest person you ever met starts asking you questions like that, it was tough to hold up in the face of that scrutiny. You mentioned the inspiration of Tarantino and the bravado of . But so much of the violence takes place off camera. Not enough talent to pull off good violence. John Woo, once you see a John Woo scene, once you see even a Robert Rodriguez action scene, I'm like, "I can't do that." So, most of the movie, all the violence happens off camera because, well, I can't make it look cool. But it is a movie that purports to contain dialogue but, really, it's just a bunch of characters monologuing at one another, constantly expository. Everyone is explaining this movie to everyone else in the movie. As I watch it every night, I'm like, "My God, they're talking a lot," and that's because somebody always has to be explaining what's going on. I think, if I were to do it now, I wouldn't feel the need to overexplain things, particularly because we live in the age of information. But we were in a pre-internet age. I was like, "I'm really going to have to explain all this Catholicism stuff for people that don't know about it." But the audience largely wound up being people who are like, "Been there." You mentioned Robert Rodriguez's advice going into this. How have you felt your own visual style has evolved, and was this film an important exercise in that trajectory for you? Yeah. The camera moved more than it ever had previously in a Kevin Smith movie and so, because of that, today I can recognize like, "Oh, that's when I started taking seriously the craft of filmmaking." Prior to that, I was very Hal Hartley influenced, Jim Jarmusch — one shot, mise-en-scène, let's let all the acting happen in front of the camera to show off how good the actors are. And then you grow up and you realize, "It's more cinematic if I cut to somebody else and then cut back." Clerks or Mallrats, even Chasing Amy, they're more hangout movies. But Dogma is, from the jump, we're all rushing to get to a place and there there's going to be a third act and stuff. So, based on that alone, it also changed my storytelling. And even somebody who's the world's biggest Kevin Smith critic — and that would be me — can see I grew as a filmmaker. It's not like between that movie and now, I have become Chris Nolan. But I certainly started paying more attention and treating it more seriously. Once again, I wasn't prepared for the ride to go on that long so didn't know I'd have to learn my lenses or anything like that. Iconic Events You have a murderer's row cast in this, including Damon, Affleck, Carlin, Linda Fiorentino, Salma Hayek, Jason Lee, Alan Rickman, and Chris Rock. At the time or in retrospect, who was the linchpin you knew the rest of the movie could congeal around? Rickman was a huge get for us — and we didn't reach out for Alan. I never would have been so presumptuous as to think that Rickman would ever work with me. But I got a call from John Gordon who worked at Miramax and he goes, "You'll never believe who came in today: Alan Rickman." I said, "Hans f--king Gruber was in the building, man? Did he blow it up and shit?" And he goes, "No, we were trying to talk him into being in this new Merchant Ivory movie, but all he wanted to do was talk about whoever made Chasing Amy." And I was like, "Bro, he would be amazing as the voice of God. Could you imagine, Alan Rickman?" And so, we sent it to him, fastest yes I ever got from an actor outside of Jason Mewes. And when we had that guy, we were like, "What else is possible?" So, emboldened, I reached out for George Carlin. It sounds like he didn't sign on as quickly. We called his manager Jerry, I said, "Hey, man, I'm Kevin Smith. This is Scott Mosier. We made Chasing Amy." He goes, "I don't know what that is." I said, "We co-executive produced a movie called Good Will Hunting. We're making the new Ben and Matt movie, man, and we want George to be in it." And he goes, "You want George to be a comedian in a Ben and Matt movie?" I said, "No, we want him to be an actor, he would be playing a Catholic cardinal." He goes, "F--k, George will love that sh-t." So, I was supposed to meet George that night on Late Night with Conan O'Brien, we were both going to be on the show. So, Jerry was like, "Bring the script. I'll introduce you." But between the time I hung up and the night we were going to do the gig, [George's] wife passed away. So I told Jerry, "Here's the script. Give it to him when you can, no rush whatsoever. Please pass on my condolences." And the next day Jerry called up and he was like, "Can you meet with him Friday at the Four Seasons for lunch at noon?" I was like, "God, yes." And when he came in, I said, "I'm a massive fan." He goes, "I can tell, because I read your script." I was like, "What'd you think?" and he goes, "I kind of feel responsible for it." I was like, "Well, yes, you're a very big influence." He goes, "Influence? Kevin, there are some scenes I think I deserve co-screenwriting credit." Iconic Events However serious Carlin may have been, was it smooth sailing from there? I was like, "If you come do the movie with us, I'd be happy to talk about [screenwriting credit]." And he goes, "Well, we got a bit of a problem. … I'd love to do a movie that fucks with the church, but, as you know, my wife passed away recently." I was like, "I know, I'm so sorry." He goes, "Me too. She was a cool lady, I'm going to miss her. For that reason, I'm not ready to take off my wedding band. And I know I'd be playing a Catholic cardinal so I can't be wearing a wedding band in your movie. So we're at an impasse." He's going, "Then I thought, if I put a band-aid around my wedding band, then I could be in the movie. What do you think?" I was like, "This is the most beautiful shit I ever heard. You could wear as many band-aids as you want." And he came in and joined us, man, and gave us a killer performance. He was such a method actor, it was crazy, he treated it so seriously. When I mentioned I was doing this interview, my wife immediately said, "The greatest choice that he ever made was casting Alanis Morissette as God." Originally, it was going to be Emma Thompson. When we first got Alan Rickman, he goes, "Oh, my friend would have a blast doing this. Can I ask her?" I said, "Who's your friend?" He goes, "Emma Thompson." I was like, "Oh, my God, yes. Do you have other friends? Bring them all." So, for a red-hot minute, Emma Thompson was our God, so much so that there's a ShoWest Reel that has a cast list before we shot a single frame of film made up of footage from other movies and stuff — and at the end it says '…and Emma Thompson as God.' Emma Thompson eventually pulled out, and then I had reached out to Alanis because Alanis, early on, after I made Chasing Amy, I had asked her if she wanted to be in the movie and she went off to India. When she came back, she called me up and said, "I'm back from India. I'm writing an album, and I remember you asking me to be in your movie. So if there's anything left in the movie, I would love to come play with you." And I said, "Well, there's one small but crucial role that's left wide open: You play God." And she goes, "Why?" And I was like, "I always believed that God would be Canadian." So, she was absolute bliss, man. There's a photo I have of me and Alanis Morissette standing in front of Jay and Silent Bob's Secret Stash, I'm smoking a cigarette, and it's the most '90s photo I have. Iconic Events The characters all can't seem to agree on how to describe God as male or female. How strategic was that? Well, we always knew that God was going to be a female. If God starts the movie in the form of a male [played by Bud Cort], having the characters play fast and loose with the pronouns was by design because we knew, eventually, we were going to introduce God and it is going to be a woman. And it's so weird because people come out after me on what used to be Twitter, calling me woke and stuff. It's like, "Have you seen Dogma, made in 1999, or Chasing Amy made in '97?" A movie with God as a woman and talking about Jesus being Black could easily be accused of being woke. We made it in '98, but I started writing it in '92. Can you be woke in 1992? I don't know. What epiphanies about faith happened to you as a result of making the film? Or as a result of its endurance as one of your most beloved films? The endurance is the thing that is surprising and wonderful. I thought this movie was so inside baseball — and then you realize a lot of us play baseball, so it can be inside. Just like when I made Clerks, I couldn't understand for years, "I get that it's funny, but why are people liking it?" And it took me decades and I realized everybody has had a shitty job that they hate, so, that movie, you can identify with even if you've never lived a New Jersey life. And it's the same with Dogma. There's a universality to those of us who are members of the Catholic Church and, beyond that, even members of any faith whatsoever. And as my career has gone on, it's diminishing returns, according to some, so it's nice that Dogma is still beloved so much so that we could take it out and tour it. It is a beautiful little victory lap I wouldn't count on by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not one I deserve. The other Kevin Smith, the one who believed in all this, he's the one who should be taking this victory lap. But since he's not here, I get to take it for him. In your language and in your self-portraiture, there's so much self-deprecation. But you have had a successful career. Has it been tough to find a healthy balance in being able to go, "Well, not everybody likes everything I did, but I'm content with what I've accomplished over my 31-year career?" Yeah, absolutely. You get a lot of perspective along the journey and 31 years in, I've met so many people who tell me what my dippy movies mean to them. So, you realize that, as much as you diminish it, honestly how I feel is I got myself in on one of the greatest scams in human history, which is I get to stay an eternal adolescent and make pretend and that's my job. My father, if he was still alive, would be like, "Oh, my God, you beat the system." So, there's an element to it that keeps one absolutely young but, once you start this, you dance as fast as you can because, for the rest of your life, you will chase relevancy. I'm not a drug person, I used to smoke a lot of weed back in the day, but, in terms of things that can make one high in this life, having total strangers be like, "I'm invested in your life and your work and your opinion," well, you don't want to let it go. So, I understand that what I do has value. I diminish it a lot because it is frivolous, and I'm not a serious person. Forgive me for making a goofy pivot, but one person to whom the movie definitely seems to mean something is Kanye West. What a pivot that was, but go ahead. He samples Jay's speech about beautiful women in 'Back to Me.' I'm curious what you thought of the song as a meditation on the actual dialogue that you wrote? I didn't go that deep with it, I'll be honest with you. It came to my attention thanks to the internet, and the first thought I had was, nobody asked for permission. I guess you could just do that. Eventually, I think they wound up paying the people that own Dogma now, but look, it's always nice when the culture notices your work. The timing of this probably could have been better, but I never heard the song. I know Jason Mewes got a few bucks off of it, and that made me happy for him. Dogma was a scale plus 10 movie, so I bet you Jason probably made more of Kanye West using his clip of dialogue than he ever did on anything Dogma related. Iconic Events Notwithstanding Kanye, you have spoken about the Harvey Weinstein of it all several times in the past. How have you been able to reach a sense of peace or separation between what you've created and some of the people who you worked with who history has borne out in less positive ways? Back when the New York Times article happened and the world was introduced to the real Harvey Weinstein, instantly, I put out a tweet about it. All my dreams came true with Clerks, and so, suddenly, I had to know that as much as I benefited, so many people did not. I remember when it happened going, "I guess I have to give up all my movies that had his name on it." And I was prepared to do that in terms of, they're things of the past. But the movie don't belong to the filmmaker. Movie don't belong to even the studio that finances it. Ultimately, the movie belongs to the audience and the audience decides how they feel. So there has been no people being like, "I can't watch this anymore because that dude was involved at one point or something like that," mercifully. But as we head into Dogma, which was a movie that took a long time to wrest from his control, you try not to change anything, but we took his name off. That felt justified. I never thought I'd be the person that stripped somebody's credits from them, but I think he stripped them from himself. Iconic Events You've done a lot of four-walling for your movies over the last 20 or so years. What are your thoughts are about exhibition these days when theaters are struggling and there's so many things competing for audience attention? I play the hand I'm dealt, and I don't make very popular movies because I make Kevin Smith movies — so that means you've got to help. So I accompany my movies out in the world. Now, for that, I get to upcharge ridiculously. They're paying 50 bucks to go watch Dogma and me afterwards too. But you're getting a two-hour movie and a two-hour Q&A so I guess pound for pound, you're getting some money's worth and stuff. But it became a joy because you're in a room with the audience who are overly, vocally, loudly appreciating your work. Now, can every filmmaker do that? Absolutely not. Can most? Yes. Because at the end of the day, people are always curious about who's behind stuff. You just have to be willing to put in the time. Now, I'm an exhibitor as well. So as somebody with skin in the game, we went nonprofit because it's tough out there, really tough. The theatrical model from my point of view is still broke. I was doing some box-office updates last month and the week that The Minecraft Movie came out, we did 435 tickets in the five days ... we're open five days a week. Mondays and Tuesdays we're closed. So that included our opening weekend and stuff; 435 in an AMC in New York City is one movie theater. That was our entire week. So I can upcharge, I can fill a theater and stuff, but I can't do that for normal ass movies, so then I'm at the mercy of what the studios are putting out there, just like everybody else. So when it comes to showing actual movies that I have nothing to do with, it's hard out here for an exhibitor. This interview has been edited and condensed. 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