Full transcript of 'Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan,' May 25, 2025

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5 days ago

On this 'Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan' broadcast, moderated by Ed O'Keefe:
House Speaker Mike Johnson, Republican of Louisiana
Rep. Jim Himes, Democrat of Connecticut
Cindy McCain, World Food Programme executive director
Navy veteran Jack McCain
For Country Caucus members Reps. Seth Moulton, Democrat of Massachusetts, Zach Nunn, Republican of Iowa, and Don Davis, Democrat of North Carolina
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of 'Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.'
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: Memorial Day marks the unofficial start to summer. We will kick it off with a hat tip to the nation's military.
(Begin VT)
(CHEERING)
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: President Trump rallied West Point graduates on Saturday.
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DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): The military's job is to dominate any foe and annihilate any threat to America anywhere, any time and any place.
MAN: Hip, hip.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: But as these new members of the world's most powerful military go forward, are we doing enough to support them? We will talk with some veterans serving in Congress about the value of public service and we will honor those who protected us.
On Capitol Hill, the president's big, beautiful bill squeaks through the House. What kind of impact will some of those tax-and-spend provisions have on Americans? And can they survive the Senate?
We will ask House Speaker Mike Johnson and talk with the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Jim Himes.
Some humanitarian aid is returning to Gaza after a monthslong Israeli blockade, but will it be in time and enough to help those in desperate need of food?
Plus, a new plan for American assistance in the region. We will talk to Cindy McCain, head of the U.N.'s World Food Program.
All that and more is just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
We have a lot to get to in honor of our military today, but we begin with the passage of what President Trump is calling his big, beautiful bill, and the man who got it through the House, Speaker Mike Johnson, who joins us from Benton, Louisiana.
Good morning to you, Mr. Speaker.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON (R-Louisiana): Hey. Good morning. And I wish a blessed Memorial Day weekend to everybody.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Indeed.
Well, you got this massive tax and border bill through, just barely, one vote margin. You pulled an all-nighter.
Among other things, it will eliminate taxes on tips and overtime, put about $50 billion towards the border wall and hiring Border Patrol agents, keep in place existing individual tax rates, create savings accounts for kids with a one-time deposit of $1,000, increase the child tax credit by about 500 bucks.
The – the bill on this is estimated to be between $4 trillion and $5 trillion over the next decade. How much do you think this is all going to cost?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Well, that's about the right estimate.
But, at the same time, we have historic savings for the American people, cuts to government to make it more efficient and effective and – and work better for the people. That was a big campaign promise of President Trump and a big promise of ours, and we're going to achieve that.
So, in the calculation here, there's more than $1.5 trillion in savings, Margaret, for the people. And that's – that's the largest amount – biggest cut in government really in at least 30 years and, if you adjust for inflation, probably the largest in the history of government.
So we're proud of what we produced here. We've checked all the boxes, where all the things that you mentioned in existence – in addition to American energy dominance, investing in our military industrial base, which is appropriate for us to talk about this weekend, and so many other priorities.
And that's why we call it the one, big beautiful bill. I think, arguably, it's the most consequential legislation that Congress will pass in many generations, and it's a long time coming.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, just this morning, we did hear from some of your Republican colleagues over in the Senate, where this heads next, that they can't support the bill as it is written. I think you know this.
Senator Rand Paul said the cuts are 'wimpy and anemic. The math doesn't add up. It will explode the debt.'
In addition to that political criticism, you've already seen…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Yes, look, Senator Paul and I are…
MARGARET BRENNAN: … Moody's credit rating agency downgrade American credit.
And Goldman Sachs says that this bill will not offset the damage from the president's tariffs. Isn't this an economic gamble?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: No, it's not an economic gamble.
It's a big investment. And, look, this – what this bill is going to do is be jet fuel to the U.S. economy. It is going to foster a pro-growth economy. What do we mean by that? Because we're reducing taxes. We're reducing regulations. We're going to increase and incentivize American manufacturing again.
And what will – the effect this will have in the economy is that entrepreneurs and risk-takers and job creators will have an easier time in doing that. They will allow for more jobs and more opportunity for more people, and wages will increase.
Now, Margaret, this is not a theoretical exercise. We did this already in the first Trump administration. After just the first two years, we brought about the greatest economy in the history of the world, not just the U.S., because we did it, followed a very simple formula. We cut taxes and we cut regulations.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You didn't do it in the middle of a tariff war.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: This time, we're doing that on steroids.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In the first administration, there was sequencing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You got tax reform. The Republicans got tax reform through and held off the tariff war.
Goldman Sachs says, the hit to growth from tariffs will more than offset the boost to growth from the fiscal package. That's Goldman Sachs.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Well – well, I know. I respect Goldman Sachs, but I think what they're discounting here is the growth that will be spurred on by this legislation and the fact that the so-called tariff war is beginning to subside already.
You've got over 75 countries that are negotiating new, more fair trade agreements for the U.S. right now because of the president's insistence that that be done. And it was decades overdue. That is going to benefit every American. It's going to benefit the consumers.
You know, they howled when the first tariffs – reciprocal tariffs policy was announced. And they said that prices would skyrocket. That simply hasn't happened. Many of those early estimates were far off, and that's being proven now.
So what I think will happen is the tariffs, you know, contest will subside. This legislation will pass and get the economy going again. And people will feel that. They'll see it in their own pocketbooks, in their own opportunity. And every American household is going to benefit by these policies.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know Walmart has already said that it will have to raise prices. It's not theoretical. And the president on Friday was talking about even more tariffs, this time on Apple and others.
But back – back to your end of the – of the deal here, for this tax relief, you talked about the cuts to pay for it all. You are eliminating subsidized federal student loans, so the government will no longer cover the interest on debt while borrowers are in school. You're eliminating $500 billion in clean energy subsidies and you're terminating early tax breaks for electric vehicles.
Alongside that, you're carrying out about a trillion in reductions to Medicaid and food stamps. We looked at your home state, and the projection is that nearly 200,000 Louisianians will lose their Medicaid coverage because of this. How do you defend that to your constituents?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: We have not cut Medicaid, and we have not cut SNAP.
What we're doing, Margaret, is working on fraud, waste and abuse. And everyone in Louisiana and around the country understands that that's a responsibility of Congress. Just in – in Medicaid, for example, you've got 1.4 million illegal aliens receiving those benefits. That is not what Medicaid is intended for.
It's intended for vulnerable populations, for young, single, pregnant women and the elderly and the disabled and people who desperately need those resources. Right now, they're being drained by fraud, waste and abuse.
You've got about 4.8 million people on Medicaid right now nationwide who are able-bodied workers, young men, for example, who are not working, who are taking advantage of the system. If you are able to work and you refuse to do so, you are defrauding the system. You're cheating the system.
And no one in the country believes that that's right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: So there's a – there's a moral component to what we're doing.
And when you make young men work, it's good for them, it's good for their dignity.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: It's good for their self-worth, and it's good for the community that they live in.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure, but in – first of all, just undocumented immigrants, you know, are not eligible for food stamps or Medicaid. Some…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: And yet they're receiving them. That's the problem.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … lawfully present immigrants are.
So the 190,000 Louisianians that are projected by KFF as losing their Medicaid, your position is, they were just lazy, not working, that they were undocumented? What – what about them? How do you defend that they will be losing their benefits?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: No, what we're talking about, again, is able- bodied workers, many of whom are refusing to work because they're gaming the system.
And when we make them work, it'll be better for everybody, a win-win-win for all. By the way, the work requirements, Margaret, is not some onerous, burdensome thing. It's a minimum of 20 hours a week. You could either be working or be in a job program, a job training program…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: … or – or volunteering in your community. This is not some – some onerous thing. This is common sense.
And when the American people understand what we are doing here, they applaud it. This is a wildly popular thing, because we have to preserve the programs. What we're doing is strengthening Medicaid and SNAP so that they can exist, so that they'll be there for the people that desperately need it the most, and it's not being taken advantage of.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: And this is something that everybody in Congress, Republicans and Democrats, should agree to.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, one of your Republican colleagues over in the Senate has been very vocal about his concern in regard to what you're doing to Medicaid.
Josh Hawley has been arguing: 'It is morally wrong and politically suicidal to slash health insurance for the working poor.' He said the cost-sharing language will force people at or just over the federal poverty level to pay as much as $35 for a medical visit, which means working people will pay more.
How do you defend that? Because you know, in the Senate, they are going to make changes to this.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: My friend Josh Hawley is a fiscal conservative, as I am. We don't want to slash benefits.
And, again, I make this very clear. We are not cutting Medicaid. We are not cutting SNAP. We're working in the elements of fraud, waste and abuse. SNAP, for example, listen to the statistics. In 2024, over $11 billion in SNAP payments were – were erroneous. I mean, that's – that's a number that everyone acknowledges is real.
It may be much higher than that. But here's the problem. The states…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Louisiana is like the second largest recipient of food stamps in the country, sir. So…
(CROSSTALK)
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Let me explain it, Margaret. Let me explain it.
The states – the states are not properly administering this, because they don't have enough skin in the game. So what we've done in the bill is add some – just a modest state sharing component, so that they'll pay attention to that, so that we can reduce fraud.
Why? Again, so that it is preserved for the people that need it the most. This is common sense, Margaret. It's good government, and everybody on both sides of the aisle should agree to that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Senator Hawley objects to that cost-sharing language.
He is the one leveraging that criticism. This is going to change, you know that, when it goes to the Senate.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Listen, right. So, I…
MARGARET BRENNAN: How do you – how do you put Republicans up to have to defend these things, when they are facing an election in 17 months?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: We got almost every vote in the House because we worked on it for more than a year in finding the exact balance of reforms to the programs, so that we can save them and secure them.
I think – I think Senator Hawley will see that when he looks into the details of what we passed on Thursday. This is a big thing. It's an historic thing, once-in-a-generation legislation. We call it the one big, beautiful bill because it's going to do so much and the America first agenda will be delivered for the people just as we promised.
And, look, I had lunch with my Senate Republican colleagues on Tuesday, their weekly luncheon, and I encouraged them to remember that we are one team. It's the Senate and the House Republicans together that will deliver this – this ball over the goal line, so to speak.
And I encouraged them to make as few modifications as possible, remembering that I have a very delicate balance on our very diverse Republican caucus over in the House.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
Yes, well, you have – you have five to six Republicans from high tax states who are not going to want to see that change in the state and local tax deductions. And there's not a commitment to that in the Senate. Can you still get this through the House without SALT?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Look, we – there's got to be a modification to SALT.
And, as I have explained to my Senate colleagues many times, you know, they don't have SALT Caucus in the Senate because they're all from red states, but in the House, we do have a number of members who are elected in places like New York and California and New Jersey, and they have to provide some relief to their constituents.
Those are what we call our majority makers. Those are the people who are elected in the toughest districts and help us have the numbers to keep the majority in the House. And so this is political reality. We'd love to cut more costs. We'd love to do even more, but we have to deal within the realm of possibility.
And I think this is a huge leap forward for fiscal responsibility, for a government that's effective and accountable to the people and real relief for hardworking Americans, and they well deserve it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
Well, before I let you go, I want to ask you about another provision that was tucked into this bill. Democrats say it is weakening separation of powers and punishing the courts. It's a specific provision that would restrict a federal court's power to enforce injunctions with contempt, unless there was a bond attached to it.
Sounds really weedy, but it's causing a lot of outcry. If this might get stripped out in the Senate anyway, why did you bother to stick it in?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON: Well, we bothered to stick it in because that's our responsibility in Congress.
It is about separation of powers. And, right now, you have activist judges, a handful of them around the country, who are abusing that power. They're issuing these nationwide injunctions. They're – they're engaging in political acts from the bench.
And that is not what our system is intended for. And people have lost their – their – their faith in our system of justice. We have to restore it. And bringing about a simple reform like that is something that I think everybody should applaud.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, thank you for your time this morning.
Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We're joined now by Congressman Jim Himes. He is the top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, and he joins us today from Greenwich, Connecticut.
Good morning to you.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES (D-Connecticut): Good morning, Margaret. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You just heard the speaker. I know you did not vote for this bill. But, you know, Connecticut has one of the highest state and local tax burdens in the country. Do you at least like that one little portion of this bill?
(LAUGHTER)
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: That one little portion is going to be good for my constituents.
But, Margaret, I – I got to tell you, it was like listening to '1984' or something listening to the speaker. You know, anybody can look this up. The American people want basically three things out of their federal budget. Number one, at this point in time, when Americans – the wealthiest Americans, are doing better than ever before, Americans want the wealthiest of the – of Americans to pay more taxes and to give tax relief to the middle class and below.
Number two, they want us to address the deficit, which is now spiraling out of control, to the point where we got a downgrade in one of the U.S. credit ratings. And, third, they want a simpler tax code.
This bill fails spectacularly on all three counts. They're cutting Medicaid and nutritional assistance, food stamps, to tens of millions of Americans in order to preserve tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans. They're adding $3 trillion to the deficit with this bill. And, lastly, they're gumming up the tax code with, you don't have to pay taxes on tips. Now, what about the folks who don't earn tips, you know, auto lending?
I mean, again, on the three things that Americans care most about, that they want the Congress to do, this bill fails spectacularly. Look, and that's going to show up in the polling pretty soon, as Americans come to realize what it is that the House of Representatives just did.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I want to ask you about your other role on the House Intelligence Committee.
When it comes to what the president has vowed to do to Russia, he floated this idea two weeks ago of possible sanctions if Russia doesn't stop its war in Ukraine. But then he spoke to Vladimir Putin on Monday, and we heard nothing about sanctions. We did hear from the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency that this war is trending in favor of Russia.
What changes need to be made, if anything, to how the U.S. provides support?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, Margaret, look, we're at a fork in the road with respect to the Russia-Ukraine war.
And, you know, Donald Trump and his acolytes in the Congress will go along with one of these two choices. Either we will continue the trajectory that started when the president and the vice president humiliated Vladimir – humiliated President Zelenskyy in the Oval Office and paused aid, and Vladimir Putin will learn from that experience that he can count on the U.S. to support his murderous incursions into neighboring countries.
Or we can take another path, which I hope the president will take, which is to say, what we need to do right now is generate maximum leverage against Vladimir Putin, and I see the president getting a little frustrated by him.
But that maximum leverage comes because we really uptick the sanctions, we stop the export of oil, we pressure India to stop buying Russian oil, and, of course, we keep arming the Ukrainians. Again, for this guy who considers himself the master of the deal, maximize the leverage of the West so that we can bring this war not just to a conclusion, but to a fair and just conclusion that will keep the Russians from invading countries in the future.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In your role on the Intelligence Committee, you get to see things the public does not.
With that in mind, the president has designated this Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua, TDA, as a foreign terrorist organization. He says they're invading the country. He's using the Alien Enemies Act to deport alleged members without a day in court.
Part of the legal justification of all of this rests on the claim that the Venezuelan government is controlling what TDA is doing. The National Intelligence Council assessed the Maduro government does not control the gang.
But, on this program last Sunday, the secretary of state rejected that. He says he favors the FBI's finding, which is that some members of the Venezuelan government do influence the gang.
Why does all of this matter?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, it matters, Margaret, because I will remind you that, in the George W. Bush administration, exactly what is happening right now happened.
It was a different topic. Right now, despite the conclusions of the intelligence community, the president, the director of national intelligence and the secretary of state are saying that Venezuela directs Tren de Aragua.
Now, they're saying that because they need this no due process mechanism of deporting people, the Alien Enemies Act, which, by the way, the courts are now laughing at.
But the reason it matters, Margaret, is because the last time the White House did this, when they were determined that the intelligence community be forced to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, which there turned out not to be, 4,400 American servicemen perished in a war that was fought on false pretenses, not to mention, by the way, the many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who perished in that war, which was a catastrophic strategic mistake driven by the politicization, the – the notion that George W. Bush had that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
That's why intelligence matters. There's 4,400 families in this country who lost people because the White House decided they would override the conclusion of their $90 billion-a-year intelligence community. That's what Marco Rubio is doing, that's what the president is doing, and that's what Director Gabbard are doing when they contradict what their own organization is telling them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, on that point, this is also becoming an issue for Joe Kent, who is the president's nominee to run the National Counterterrorism Center.
He's under scrutiny because e-mails show that, while acting as chief of staff to DNI Gabbard, he pressed analysts to amend an assessment of links between the government and TDA.
According to redacted e-mails that my network has obtained, he wrote: 'We need to do some rewriting, a little more analysis so this document is not used against the DNI or POTUS,' the president of the United States. He says: 'We need to incorporate the FBI's assessment.'
You have now read these declassified e-mails as well. Do you believe that Joe Kent was just asking for more context?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: No, he absolutely was not. And I have seen the redacted e-mails. He was pressuring the National Intelligence Council to alter their conclusions.
And, look, he gave away the game. You just read the line. He told us why he did that, so that this report would not be used against the president or the director of national intelligence. Think about that. The chief of staff of the – of the Office of the Director National Intelligence wasn't saying, we need the very best intelligence here. We need you to go back and make sure you're 100 percent true.
He was saying, we need to make sure that your product is not used to embarrass the president and the director of national intelligence. That is the very definition, the very definition of politicizing intelligence. This is not about embarrassing or not embarrassing anybody.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: So, no, Joe Kent must never be confirmed for any Senate-confirmed…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Look, it's all out there for the Senate to see. So, no, he may – he must never be confirmed for any Senate-confirmed position because of what he did.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. OK. And those e-mails are available for the public to read as well.
Congressman Himes, thank you for your time today.
We'll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: In our next half-hour, we will be talking to not one, but two members of the McCain family, Cindy McCain and her son Jack.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: One congressional tradition that brings out both Republicans and Democrats is the Memorial Day weekend cleaning of the Vietnam Wall.
We ran into former Trump National Security Adviser Mike Waltz on Thursday when we visited. He's no longer in Congress, but he explained why he started encouraging his fellow veterans in the House to pitch in.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to the executive director of the United Nations World Food Programme, Cindy McCain. She joins us this morning from Kinshasa, in the Democratic Republic of Congo.
Good morning to you.
CINDY MCCAIN (Executive Director, United Nations World Food Programme): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In Gaza we have this manmade catastrophe with Israeli authorities blocking the entry of all aid from March until about May 18th. The Trump administration said Israel needs to let in food.
So, are your deliveries consistently now getting through?
CINDY MCCAIN: Well, let's start with the fact that this is a catastrophe. And you're absolutely correct, and I'm very grateful that you are covering this issue. They have let a few trucks in. This is a drop in the bucket as to what's needed.
Right now we have 500,000 people inside of Gaza that are – that are extremely food insecure and could be on the verge of famine if we don't help bring them back from that. We need to get in and we need to get in at scale, not just a few dribble of the trucks. Right now it's, as I said, it's a drop in the bucket.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, how many trucks need to be getting in daily to address the scale of the need you see? And – and can they get into northern Gaza?
CINDY MCCAIN: Well, prior to the – you know, during the ceasefire, I should say, we were getting in 600 trucks a day. Right now we're getting in maybe 100. Something like that. So, it – it's not nearly enough. And it needs to be going to the correct places. So, the various gates. It's inconsistent as to how the gates are open. It's inconsistent as to the roads we can use. The roads that are the better roads. The ones that can get us further along aren't open at all much. It's complicated right now. And – and again, I will tell anybody who will listen, we need to get in and get in at scale and be allowed to feed these people before further catastrophe occurs.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Your organization announced at least 15 of your trucks were looted when they entered southern Gaza on route to – to bakeries. Israel has consistently said that the looting is being carried out by Hamas. Have you seen evidence that it is Hamas stealing the food?
CINDY MCCAIN: No, not at all. Not – not in this round.
Listen, these people are desperate. And they see a World Food Programme truck coming in and they run for it. This – this doesn't have anything to do with Hamas or any kind of organized crime or anything. It has simply to do with the fact these people are starving to death.
And so, we will continue to go in. We will continue to go in with food and the kinds of supplies that we need to help the bakeries operate and make sure that we can continue to do that and – and hopefully be able to do more of it.
But, again, we can't do this unless the world community puts pressure on this. We can't be allowed to sit back and watch these people starve to death with no outside diplomatic influence to help us. These – these – these poor souls are really, really, really desperate. And, you know, having been in – in a food riot myself some years ago, I understand the desperation very well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, five days ago, Prime Minister Netanyahu vowed to take control of all of Gaza, which seems to be a shift from going in, carrying out raids and then withdrawing. We've seen the pope speak out. We've seen the leaders of France, of Canada, of the U.K. calling the cutting of aid egregious. Netanyahu said criticism like that is feeding Hamas and really feeding anti-Semitism.
What do you make of that pushback from him, that criticisms of the state are feeding hate?
CINDY MCCAIN: What I do know is they're not feeding people. And the most important part of this is that's what we're supposed to be doing.
I'm very grateful for anyone, the pope, any of the folks that did – did shout out and say, listen, we need to get more in. But I can't tell you as to what – exactly what Netanyahu's thinking or anything else.
What I do know for a fact is that we need food to get into Gaza to avoid an utter catastrophe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Israeli army had announced aid will be distributed under what they described as an American plan. Prime Minister Netanyahu said it will be American companies giving food directly to Palestinian families in safe zones secured by the Israeli military. There's reporting in 'The Washington Post' that these are armed private contractors doing logistics. Palestinians will have to submit to identity checks to be fed. And that would replace the U.N. coordinated networks, presumably also the World Food Programme.
Do you know how much longer you will be allowed to operate in Gaza?
CINDY MCCAIN: I have not seen a plan from anybody. We continue to operate doing what we do best. And we are the largest and the best at what we do, I might add. I – we've never been – a plan has never been proposed to us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We haven't heard in – in the press at least from the administration any of the details either. But we do know that the U.S. ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, announced back on May 9th that this is going to be a U.S. initiative involving only Israeli security. The Israelis are not distributing food.
Secretary Rubio was just in Rome. He said he did meet with you. Did you share with him any of your concerns?
CINDY MCCAIN: Well, we had a very frank discussion about exactly what was going on and what we could do to help alleviate a lot of this. Some of it, I'm not sure that they were completely clear on how we operate and the size that we are and the logistics ability that we have to be able to do this. So – so, we had a – a very nice discussion. As you know, the Rubio family and – and the McCain family have been friends for a very long time. And so I was grateful that he would take the time to listen to what – what we had to say and let us discuss exactly how we feel we should be able to operate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did he assure you that the U.S. supports the U.N. and the World Food Programme continuing to supply food in Gaza?
CINDY MCCAIN: We didn't really discuss the U.S. participation in any of this. He was really – really concerned with and really trying to understand how we operate and – and the need for what exactly what we do. We will work with anybody as long as it feeds people, and feeds people safely, I might add, on the ground and keeps our people and people from other agencies safe as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Executive director of the World Food Programme, Cindy McCain. Thank you for your time this morning.
CINDY MCCAIN: Thank you very much for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we're back with another McCain. Jack McCain is the son of Cindy and the late Senator John McCain. He's a Navy veteran who served in the Afghanistan War. And he joins us now from Kyoto, Japan.
Good to have you here.
JACK MCCAIN (Afghanistan War Combat Veteran): Thank you. I'm incredibly glad to be here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, we know, when you were in Afghanistan, you flew alongside and helped to train some of the Afghan Black Hawk pilots. Why is it important to you now to speak out on their behalf? Are any of your personal contacts there at risk?
JACK MCCAIN: Yes. Basically everyone that we were unable to get out is at risk. These pilots and crew members fought the Taliban toe to toe. And because of that, the Taliban is trying to seek them out for reprisal. Something that they distinctly promised that they would not do.
So, not only are they – are they in danger, but we owe them a debt.
I believe that I'm vertical and still on this earth because of the efforts of my Afghan pilots and crews. And not only do I owe them personally, but the nation owes them a debt of honor. One that we have yet to repay.
Everyone, interpreters, ground troops, pilots, that worked and fought alongside the United States at our behest should be able to be evacuated here to the United States and should be taken care of.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you were active duty at the time of the very chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan. I know you helped to get Afghans out during that period of time. There were a lot of Afghans airlifted out. Who was left behind and – and what promises were made?
JACK MCCAIN: Yes, the problem is everyone was left behind. Whether it was family members, including family members of U.S. servicemen, whether it was pilots, crews, the people that I worked with, special forces, we did everything we could to get as many as we could out. But due to the chaos of the withdrawal and, frankly, the lack of planning on the part of the United States government, it was up to individuals and sometimes smaller military units to help either, in my case I had to triage who we were going to take out. I had to prioritize operational pilots over pilots in training versus crew members in the back simply because everyone was trying to do everything they could.
So, we have tens of thousands that fought alongside us left behind. Each one of them in danger in their own way. Not to mention family members that can be used as tools of leverage against those that are even here in the United States now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And to that point, under the Taliban right now, the daughters, the wives, the female family members of a lot of these people who worked with Americans are facing some pretty tough conditions. However, this administration just recently said through Homeland Security that it is safe for Afghans to return. So those here could be sent back. Some Afghans who had arrived here and been given temporary protection.
Does what the U.S. government said match in any way what you are hearing is happening on the ground?
JACK MCCAIN: I would disagree with the entire notion that it is safe for anyone, especially if they've been in the United States, to return to rule under the Taliban. Whether they are male, female, young, old, that regime has proven itself to be – to not only have gone back on every promise they made to us, but to be – to have no problem using human lives as pawns to imprison, torture, rape, kill, even sell into slavery.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, there are a number of veterans of the war in Afghanistan who serve currently as lawmakers in the United States Congress. And it is Congress that sets the number of visas for these – these special immigrant visas, SIVs. We checked. There are more than 144,000 applicants in the pipeline, but there are only 11,000 visas left. That's not even counting family members here.
Have you gotten any indication from the lawmakers you know that they are going to raise that cap?
JACK MCCAIN: No, I have not. And it is an utter travesty that that is the case. People on both sides of the aisle had – have served in Afghanistan or have fought alongside Afghans, much like me. And the political theater that has taken place of simply ignoring the problem can only be summarized by the word despicable.
This is an issue of humanity. This is an issue of national honor. And this is a debt that we owe. So, I would urge lawmakers on both sides of the aisle to solve this problem because it is not going to go away. It is your job to legislate, so, please do so.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, that's in the hand of lawmakers. That was a problem even during the last administration. Now, though, we have this extra complication where the Trump administration has put in orders to restrict refugee admissions and said the U.S. should prioritize people who can, quote, 'fully and appropriately assimilate and who do not pose a threat to the security or welfare of the United States.' That's made it hard for Afghan refugees, family members to enter here.
How do you reassure the public that these refugees are not a risk? Even the vice president of the United States has said he does not trust the vetting of refugees.
JACK MCCAIN: Well, I mean, I think I passed the ultimate test in that I literally put my lives in – my life in these people's hands. So, not only are they worthy of trust, but they are worthy of our care.
The vetting process has taken place. It continues to take place. And if vetting is the issue, fantastic. Let's pass legislation to solve that problem. Let's make sure everyone up to this point has been vetted.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Before I let you go, your father famously said, 'it matters less that you can fight, but what you fight for is the real test.' I know you feel passionately about this particular issue. Can you ever see yourself entering politics to fight for other issues?
JACK MCCAIN: That's a – a very interesting question. One that I happen to get asked fairly regularly. And I would say trying to follow his example that the best life is one lived adventurously and in service of a cause greater than one's self interest. I'm doing that. And if someday that does take me to office in service of the nation, then by all means. But to live a life simply focused on the single goal of attaining public office is not in my mind a life purposefully lived, in – in service in office, it is a purposefully lived one, but that should not be the overriding goal of your life.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will continue watching.
Jack McCain, thank you for weighing in on this important issue.
JACK MCCAIN: Thank you so much.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll be back in a moment.
MARGARET BRENNAN: This year, the bipartisan group, led in the past by then Congressman Mike Waltz, went from the House floor, where they had just passed the president's spending bill in an early morning vote, down to the Washington Mall. Cleaning the Vietnam War Memorial may have been delayed, but the mission was not deterred by either lack of sleep or rain.
(BEGIN VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: You were up all night. Why did you show up in the rain in your suit to still do this?
REPRESENTATIVE SETH MOULTON (D-MA): Because this is way more important. You know, sometimes people ask me, God, Seth, Washington is a mess today. Is it as bad as Iraq? And every single day the answer is, this is easier than the war. And it's important to keep that perspective.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think that the divisions in our country now are in the same place, different from what this country went through around the time of Vietnam, when it was a very divided country?
REPRESENTATIVE SETH MOULTON: You know, I think there are actually a lot of – a lot of parallels. And one of the lessons that we should learn is to – to do right by our veterans, if for no other reason we've got to work on coming together. And, you know, it's – it's difficult when it feels like we've got the divider in chief to quote one of his former officials, at the head of our government right now. But that doesn't mean that those of us in Congress, especially veterans, can't work together.
MARGARET BRENNAN (voice over): Iowa Republican Zach Nunn spent 20 years as an Air Force intelligence officer as still served in the Air Force Reserve. North Carolina Democrat Don Davis also served in the Air Force and told us that his work as a mortuary officer at nearby Andrews Air Force Base makes Memorial Day especially important to him.
After the wall was cleaned, we talked about their work together on Capitol Hill.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Congress did give that boost of pay last year to the troops. Is it enough in this economy though? Is the country doing enough?
REPRESENTATIVE DON DAVIS (D-NC): We know that families are still struggling to make ends meet. Taking care of the day to day, kids, putting gas in the tank. So, it's definitely, I'm sure, not enough. But we are moving, I believe, there with that (INAUDIBLE) in particular in the right direction, not only with pay, but looking at broader quality of life issues, housing, childcare that's available on our installations.
MARGARET BRENNAN: America spends more than any other country on its defense. How is it possible we have this happening to our troops?
REPRESENTATIVE ZACH NUNN, (R-IA): We've tried to work together on things that not only help veterans, leading a veteran's suicide bill, assistance to families in the military. I'm proud the bill that we just passed is going to be able to extent a 22 percent tax cut to military families. I'm proud that we got a child tax credit in there. I'm thrilled that we were able to get our bill in there that worked towards giving a family a tax credit for adoption. We've got two adopted kids. This goes a long ways to helping a middle American family, whether you're military or not, be successful going forward.
REPRESENTATIVE DON DAVIS: But I want to also say, it's important to do all of this for recruitment, retention, addressing quality of life. We recruit families. But also, when I think about being right here, at the Vietnam Memorial, and I think about our service, my service, you don't do it for the money, you do it because you love the country.
REPRESENTATIVE ZACH NUNN: That's right.
REPRESENTATIVE DON DAVIS: So, because of that love for the country, realizing that families are fighting for our country, the service members and their families, we have to continue to just look and – at prioritizing our military families.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How do you tell people now, encourage them to enter public service, at a time when they're being told, even by the federal government –
REPRESENTATIVE ZACH NUNN: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The private sector is going to be more rewarding for you?
REPRESENTATIVE ZACH NUNN: Look, Margaret, I think you highlight a really important part here. There's a number of ways that people can be called to serve. It's one of the things that I think has actually made us most combat effective in Congress is finding people who are mission oriented, who are working together. I tell my kids, the things that they could potentially learn in the military will echo throughout their entire life. But it's up for every American to make that decision, that pathway.
You're right, less than 1 percent of Americans are serving. That 1 percent distinguishes itself time and time again.
And there's lots of great ways to public service. Don and I have worked together to get more teachers, more nurses, more doctors. There's all great calls to public service. The federal government has a role to play in this, but ultimately it's up to Americans to decide how do they best give back to the communities that they represent? We certainly felt that military service was a way to do it, but I think we came to it in our own pathway.
REPRESENTATIVE DON DAVIS: Yes, and I would love to say to any young person listening right now that's remotely interested, I had an amazing career serving in the United States Air Force. I love serving our country. And it was definitely a great career for me. And now as a member of the Armed Services Committee, we're doing everything to continue to make sure all of our branches are vibrant and we're doing things to make sure we support them. Give it a shot.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. Well, we talk about the Vietnam War and the memorial behind you. There are it looks like students coming to reflect this morning. Three million people died in that war, 58,000 Americans among them. I wonder this Memorial Day, who are you thinking of?
REPRESENTATIVE ZACH NUNN: Look, this isn't ancient history. This is living history. I think of my uncle who flew spotter planes over Vietnam. I think of my dad, who had the choice between enlisting or joining the ROTC program. I also think about my mother, who got – back home taking care of, you know, at that point, her career as a nurse. Ay aunt, who had two little girls. These are the stories that I think it's so important that young people do have the opportunity to learn about. One, so we never enter this kind of a situation again where we send men and women off to fight and they come back home, not to a hero's welcome, but as a despised class. Peace through strength is a real deterrent. But also knowing that we've got a military that when we commit to fight, we have to go in there knowing that we have a strategy, a plan, and that we're not going to be bringing people home injured, broken or shattered to a country not ready to receive them.
REPRESENTATIVE DON DAVIS: It's so warming to see young people, kids walking through and looking at the Vietnam Memorial. I think of those throughout my community back home in eastern North Carolina, who I know served our country during Vietnam.
And I go beyond Vietnam. I think of Corporal Ryan Russell, who's from east North Carolina, who was killed in Iraq. And I have a special relationship with his mom, Kathy. And we're doing everything to commemorate those who were killed, not just Vietnam, but in all wars and conflicts so that they know the – that the families, that we're standing with them. There's a way to get through this, this healing process that so many families are going through, those tears, that they're not alone.
But not only that, but to embrace nationally when we see this, to think about all those who ultimately gave their lives in service of our country.
(END VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's it for us today. But on behalf of all of us here at FACE THE NATION, to our military, our veterans, and especially their families, thank you for your service. We are all in your debt.
Until next week, for FACE THE NATION, I'm Margaret Brennan.