John Swinney denies he was 'furious' at Nicola Sturgeon over interview

The National

11-05-2025

On Tuesday, the First Minister set out his Programme for Government in the Scottish Parliament, defining his policy agenda for the next 12 months ahead of the Holyrood 2026 election.
Earlier that morning, his predecessor Sturgeon was stopped by journalists in the Garden Lobby for her response to the Supreme Court ruling on the definition of a woman.
The Glasgow MSP had been accosted by a Mail on Sunday journalist at a local event in the weeks following the ruling, but had refused to speak at length.
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She told reporters in Holyrood that she had 'concerns' about making the lives of trans people harder.
Asked about the interview on the BBC Sunday Show, it was put to Swinney that he was 'furious' at Sturgeon taking attention away from his speech.
'Not in the slightest,' Swinney said.
'I was pleased to hear Nicola setting out her perspective, and I agree with her perspective that it's important the rights of everybody in Scotland, and that includes trans people, are properly and fully respected.
'And that's indeed what the Supreme Court judgment said.'
Journalist Martin Geissler pressed Swinney on Sturgeon's comments, adding that she could have made them weeks earlier 'when trans people actually could have done with a powerful voice like hers in their corner, and she chose to do it just before you got to your feet'.
(Image: Jane Barlow) 'Well, I'm completely at ease with that, perfectly happy with the timing, and perfectly happy with what Nicola said,' Swinney replied.
'And of course, it corresponds with what I said immediately after the supreme court judgment, which is that we've got to protect and defend the rights of everybody within Scotland.
'People are entitled, no matter who they are, to have their rights protected.
'And a government under my leadership, and indeed a government under Nicola Sturgeon's leadership, always operated on the on the on the approach that people's rights had to be protected. So I'm completely at ease with all of that.'
Last week, the Scottish Parliament announced that transgender women are no longer able to use women's toilets on the parliamentary estate. Swinney was asked if that policy would be extended to all Scottish Government buildings and offices.
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Swinney said: 'We're obviously taking forward all of the steps that are necessary to review these issues and to make sure we've got the proper guidance in place.
'Some of this will have to wait until the Equalities and Human Rights Commission provide their final guidance on these issues, which won't be for some time to come.
'But we are engaging with the Equalities and Human Rights Commission, and we are also undertaking the internal review work that is required to make sure that we always live within the law, which is an absolutely solemn commitment that my government makes to the people of Scotland.'
We told how Sturgeon told reporters: "The Supreme Court judgment by definition is the law of the land. The question for me, and I think for a lot of people, is how that is now translated into practice.
(Image: Jane Barlow) "Can that be done in a way that protect women and also allows trans people to live their lives with dignity and in a safe and accepted way? I think that remains to be seen.
"I think some of the early indications would raise concerns in my mind that we are at risk of making the lives of trans people almost unliveable and I don't think the majority of people in the country would want to see that.
"It certainly doesn't make a single woman any safer to do that because the threat to women comes from predatory and abusive men."
Sturgeon was first minister when the Scottish Parliament passed its Gender Recognition Reform Act in 2022.
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The law would have allowed transgender people to self-identify and simplified the requirements to acquire a GRC, and was supported by the majority of cross-party MSPs, before it was blocked by Westminster from becoming law.
Swinney served as her deputy first minister at the time.
The Programme for Government included plans to scrap peak rail fares, extra NHS appointments and strategies to tackle child poverty.