The Catholic Church after Pope Francis

Washington Post

21-04-2025

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Pope Francis died at the Vatican early Monday at age 88. Francis's 12-year papacy ushered the Catholic Church into a contemporary era: serving as first pontiff from Latin America, Francis preached a tolerance that often went against the grain of others in the church hierarchy and elevated the plight of the poor and the Global South. In the coming weeks, the College of Cardinals will begin the process of electing a new pope who could extend Francis's progressive legacy or return the church closer to its more dogmatic tradition. I'm joined by my colleagues E.J. Dionne Jr., a fellow 'cradle Catholic,' and Ramesh Ponnuru, a convert, to discuss what's next for the Catholic Church.
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Karen Tumulty Let's get started by reflecting a bit on Francis's legacy. When he was elected in 2013, expectations were that elderly Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires would be a placeholder. He was an outsider who wasn't really part of the Vatican power structure. E.J., expectations were pretty low, weren't they?
E.J. Dionne Jr. His election was certainly a surprise to many, as you say — he was not at the top of the pundits' lists — but he had reportedly given Pope Benedict a 'horse race' in the 2005 conclave, as someone put it. He was seen as an advocate of a more decentralized church and very dedicated to the marginalized. My Post column when he was elected in 2013 ran under the headline, 'Francis, a pope of the poor.' So, I had pretty high expectations, especially after he picked the name Francis!
Ramesh PonnuruSome of those same pundits pointed to his age as a sign that he would be a caretaker pope, which I never understood given modern life expectancies. But Francis pretty quickly transcended those expectations. He enjoyed a kind of honeymoon in the first years of his pontificate. As the first modern non-European pope, he was thought to symbolize a transition to a church that included millions of new brown and Black Catholics. Western progressives, meanwhile, thought he would change the church in a way they welcomed after decades in which such hopes had been doused. But especially at the beginning, there was enough ambiguity in his actions and statements that more conservative Catholics stayed open to him. This seemed like it could lead to a refreshment of the church.
Karen Tumulty So true. And when it came to doctrine, he didn't make major changes on issues such as the role of women in the church. He preached tolerance of LGBTQ+ Catholics, but did not alter the church's formal position that homosexual acts are a 'grave depravity.'
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E.J. Dionne Jr.Ramesh is right about how refreshing Francis was. He sent a powerful message on Holy Thursday in 2013 when, as part of the traditional ceremony, he washed and kissed the feet not of priests but of 12 young people at a youth prison. Among them were two women and two Muslims. It told us a lot about the kind of pope he intended to be.
Ramesh PonnuruThe moment that sticks with me from those early years was Francis's embrace of Vinicio Riva, who had been disfigured by a rare medical condition. That image was a powerful witness to Christian love.
Karen TumultyAnd there was a lightness and joy to him. I loved his December op-ed about the link between faith and … humor.
E.J. Dionne Jr.Yes, he was not deadly serious all the time. I will always love the fact that, as I mentioned in my column on Monday, he will be the only pope who ever condemned 'sourpusses.' (Maybe his translator also had a sense of humor!) He spoke of 'the joy of the Gospel' and against 'theatrical severity.' Our friend and colleague, the late Mike Gerson, liked to call him a 'troublemaker.'
Karen TumultySo, what now? To be part of the Conclave (loved that movie!), a cardinal has to be younger than 80. Francis appointed 108 of the 135 cardinals who are eligible to vote. Will they continue his legacy?
Ramesh PonnuruHaving said that Francis's pontificate began in promise, I'm sorry to say that, in some respects, it ended in disappointment. He did not overcome the divisions in the church within the rich world. Rather, he troubled Catholic conservatives without making the changes that progressives wanted, creating a sense of instability rather than resolution. Hence the unfortunate ideological framing that is likely to dominate coverage of this conclave. But the demographic and geographic transition within the church has proceeded, and the church in Africa and Asia might not be preoccupied by the same issues that divide left and right here.
Karen TumultyThat's right! This Conclave is going to look like none we have seen before. More global; less White. And yet — still no women. Foot-washing is great symbolism, but it is not empowering.
E.J. Dionne Jr.The enormous demographic change in the College of Cardinals that began before Francis but that he hugely accelerated is very important. As Father Tom Reese wrote in America magazine last fall: 'For the first time in history, a majority of the cardinals at the next conclave will be from outside of Europe, quite a change from the conclave that elected Pius XII in 1939, which was 89 percent European. More than half (56%) of the cardinals at that conclave were Italian.'
E.J. Dionne Jr. If punditry is always hard at Conclaves, it's especially difficult this time because many of the new cardinals in a far more global college have never met. In the past, the large role played by Italian prelates in the Vatican made them the power brokers. It is by no means clear who the power brokers will be this time — other than the Holy Spirit, of course.
E.J. Dionne Jr.Thanks to the 'Conclave' movie, lots of people now know who the 'camerlengo' is, the man (played by John Lithgow in the film) who runs things, including the Conclave itself. Americans will be interested that the camerlengo this time, Cardinal Kevin Farrell, was born in Ireland but served as a priest and bishop for many years in the Washington Archdiocese and in Dallas.
Ramesh PonnuruThe church in the United States and elsewhere remains badly scarred by the abuse scandal and the stubborn refusal of too many bishops to take it sufficiently seriously. (I speak as someone received into the church by Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, which I suppose demonstrates that the sacraments are valid no matter how disgraceful the man who administers them.) Among the high hopes for Pope Francis that did not come about was that he would clean house. His patronage of the Rev. Marko Rupnik, an abuser of nuns, stung every Catholic who thought that the princes of the church had learned something about this grave evil. The next pope, let us pray, will do better.
E.J. Dionne Jr.Francis moved in a better direction on the issues around the scandal over time, but it remains a very serious problem. And the steps on empowering women were real but far from what should happen.
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Karen TumultySo, let's close with this question: What is the first big thing that the new guy will have to do — other than picking his name — that will signal the course on which he plans to take his papacy? (Speaking of names, there was once a Pope Hilarius.)
Ramesh PonnuruA crucial early decision for the next pope has very little to do with any culture-war issues. It is whether he will stand with the persecuted church, especially in China, or continue to seek accommodations with authorities who respect neither religious liberty nor the dignity of the human person.
E.J. Dionne Jr.I suspect that the non-European and non-North American cardinals will be broadly Francis-sympathizers on issues related to poverty, social justice and the climate. But the divisions around the role of women and LGBTQ+ issues cut across the regional divides. The dividing lines might be over whether to press forward with the progressive side of Francis's pontificate, to consolidate, or to roll back. One of the first two seems to me more probable.
E.J. Dionne Jr.You never want to take a job after someone who has left such a big mark. The comparisons almost always hurt the new person. It will be very hard to find anyone like Francis. I hope for someone who continues Francis's mission on behalf of the poor, the migrants, the marginalized and the planet. And while it makes some uncomfortable, I hope he leaves the tough debates we are having open. Francis did not create the divisions in the Church. He let the debates go forward. They need to play themselves out among the faithful and not just in the leadership.
Karen TumultyThat sounds like a good place to leave this. We will have so much to watch. Thanks so much for joining us today.