Trump vs. Harvard. How does it end?

Boston Globe

2 days ago

The following is a lightly edited transcript of the June 5 episode of the 'Say More' podcast.
Shirley Leung:
I'm Shirley Leung. Welcome to 'Say More.'
With the moving of tassels and tossing of caps, the school year has come to a close at Harvard University and what a tumultuous year it has been.
President Donald Trump has gone to war with the nation's most elite university. The White House has canceled a sweeping array of grants and contracts worth billions of dollars with no plans to let up.
Then in late May, Trump moved to prohibit international students from enrolling at Harvard. They make up more than a quarter of its student population. Harvard has filed lawsuit after lawsuit to stop Trump from destroying what makes the university great.
As we head into the summer, Harvard is at a crossroads with much of its fate hanging in the courts.
Hilary Burns, the higher education reporter for the Boston Globe, is covering it all.
So Hilary, we're taping this on Friday, May 30th, a day after Harvard's graduation. How do you think graduation went this year?
Hilary Burns:
It's really amazing the difference between last year's commencement and this year's. Last year, Alan Garber, president of Harvard, was not popular. He had just succeeded Claudine Gay and had been in the role for a few months.
When graduation came, students were really unhappy with the administration's handling of the pro-Palestinian encampment that had been in the Harvard Yard. So, there was a massive walkout of hundreds of graduates.
The people were really not happy. Garber sat there stoically with a straight face as the protest happened, and then commencement proceeded.
This year, it was very different. Alan Garber is a celebrity at Harvard right now. The community is rallying behind him.
He walked through the commencement ceremony towards the stage with the other deans, and there was a standing ovation before he even said a word. He also struck a tone of defiance, which is noteworthy, coming from this soft mannered man.
Alan Garber (clip from 2025 graduation speech):
Welcome members of the class of 2025, members of the class of 2025 from down the street across the country, and around the world. Around the world, just as it should be.
Leung:
What I find so remarkable about this year is that we all thought the previous academic year was seismic. With all these campus protests throughout the year, the resignation of Claudine Gay, Harvard's first Black president after only six months at the helm, does that chapter now feel almost quaint compared to the chaos now?
Burns:
I certainly didn't anticipate the higher education beat becoming this busy when I signed up for the role, I'll tell you that. But I think that I see it as very connected.
The current academic year, the issues and the problems and the escalation between the Trump administration and Harvard really started on October 7th, 2023.
We heard that the conflagration that erupted on campus after October 7th led to the resignation of Claudine Gay. Those were the tremors that led to this current moment.
Harvard became the symbol of everything the Trump administration is against. They say that it's this far-left institution, that it's a hotbed of antisemitism. All of their buzzwords in one is 'Harvard.' It's become the perfect punching bag for them to go after.
So a lot of our coverage last year was touching on issues that are now right in front of us. It's very connected.
Leung:
So, I want to go back to the beginning of the academic year, around September 2024.
What was it like when students returned? Were there still protests on campus?
Burns:
Good question. So last summer, administrators across the country, not just at Harvard, were scrambling to revisit their rules and regulations around protest and speech on campus. There were restrictions across the board when everyone came back to campus in the fall semester. Harvard would probably say they clarified their rules.
Other campuses adopted completely new rules and really buckled down. There were not widespread protests in the fall semester. There were very few protests and we saw protestors getting in trouble much more often.
There would be people out there writing down their names, filming every protest, and they were trying to follow their own rules, because that was a big criticism that these campuses were letting things get out of hand and they were not enforcing their own rules.
So, the fall semester was pretty quiet. It was very different from last spring.
We kept talking to the protestors and they kept saying, 'Oh, we're working on something, we're trying to figure something out.'
And they did have a few demonstrations here and there, but the election was really the turning point in the semester. The atmosphere shifted at that point.
Leung:
One of the big themes of this academic year at Harvard, and this is after President Trump returned to the White House, is Harvard leading the higher education resistance.
There's something of an irony here, because last year, Harvard decided it would adopt a policy of institutional neutrality, meaning it no longer would comment on public matters that don't relate to their core function. Of course, Trump going after Harvard affects their core function in a big way.
So are you surprised how much Harvard is standing up to Trump?
Burns:
I was a little surprised, because based on what we saw at Columbia, I think Harvard had no interest in being the face of any resistance movement against Trump.
That was not on their wishlist, not something they wanted to do. I think everyone at Harvard was kind of relieved when Trump was picking on Columbia so much earlier in the year thinking, 'Okay, maybe we'll just quietly keep working on the reforms that we have going and strengthening our campus, working on civil discourse and how to have difficult conversations with one another.'
So they were doing that work quietly and trying to just keep their heads down. And of course, the Trump administration turned their attention to Harvard.
That was the big question: Will Harvard stand up? Or will they follow in Columbia's footsteps and try to come to some kind of deal with the Trump administration?
And most everyone I spoke to thought that Harvard would follow in Columbia's footsteps and would not stand up to Trump. So when they did receive that demand letter in April from the Trump administration that just had so many egregious demands that they felt infringed on academic freedom, leaders of Harvard decided they could not engage with this. They could not make a deal under these terms, and they resisted. And that, was a surprising moment.
Leung:
We're seeing and hearing a lot from Harvard President Alan Garber. He was Harvard University's provost up until he got promoted to president.
He's a doctor by training. Up until then, he's kind of kept a pretty low profile. But now, he's on the television, he's on the radio. He's getting a standing ovation at graduation.
How do you think Garber is navigating this moment? You had a chance to sit down and talk to him, right?
Burns:
I did, yes. We sat down with him at the end of April in his office, and he was very calm. That was my biggest takeaway, how calm he was despite just the onslaught coming his way.
He is a very mellow person from everyone we've talked to. He's mild mannered, and we've talked to some people who say that is really good for this moment. That if there was someone who was very temperamental and went off, that might escalate things.
And Trump is looking for a fight. We talked with an attorney who worked with Trump previously who told us that nothing gets Trump going more than someone picking a fight with him.
So, once Harvard stood up and said, 'We cannot acquiesce to these demands that you're giving us.' That just made the Trump administration double down even more.
Now every time Alan Garber speaks publicly, I think it creates this deep irritation inside the Trump administration that he has this rallying cry behind him.
Our reporting is showing that all of this support behind him is making the Trump administration very annoyed.
Leung:
When it comes to attacking Harvard, the Trump administration is flooding the zone, right? They're canceling grants. They're revoking the visas of international students. They're threatening to take away Harvard's tax exempt status.
Harvard is the richest and most powerful university in the world. So how vulnerable is it really?
Burns:
That's something we spent most of the week reporting out of. This is the wealthiest university in the country, and they do have vast resources.
Of course, Harvard is always quick to remind folks that most of their endowment is restricted and they're legally obligated to use the donations as the donor asked them to when they gave them the gift.
So it's not just a rainy day fund that they have, sitting right there. However, they do have vast resources.
And if any institution can take on the Trump administration, it is Harvard. That doesn't mean they're going to get through this without pain. They're entering a period of austerity. People inside Harvard are bracing for layoffs. Research projects are being canceled or moved to other universities.
This is not what Harvard had in mind when they were doing their five and 10 year strategic planning a few years back. This is going to be really painful for them.
But, our reporting shows that it seems like Harvard can outlast the Trump administration. I think they're optimistic that they can outlast him.
There is also a last resort we learned about this week. I talked to a Harvard graduate who's a law professor at University of California Los Angeles who was telling me that there is this kind of obscure law that Harvard could go to the Massachusetts Attorney General's office and say to them, 'We are facing an existential crisis. We really need to lift some of the restrictions off our endowment, so we can use it to defend Harvard against the Trump administration.'
If the Attorney General's office agreed, they could go with Harvard to court to argue for these restrictions to be lifted. So it's pretty rare for universities to go that route and it's unclear if a judge would agree with Harvard.
But, this attorney thought that they would have a really strong case as a last case scenario if they did need more funding.
Leung:
Last year donors and alumni were upset with Harvard over rising campus antisemitism and Claudine Gay's plagiarism scandal as a scholar that helped ultimately lead to her downfall.
Has anger subsided or are tensions still simmering?
Burns:
There are still donors, some big donors, who are still really upset with Harvard.
Bill Ackman is probably the most outspoken of these donors, and he really believes that Harvard should have made a deal with the Trump administration. He says that the Trump administration is asking for reasonable measures. Maybe they're overreaching in their tactics in how they're asking, but Ackman believes these are reforms that Harvard must do to save itself.
Even some of the harshest critics of Harvard last year, besides Ackman, have changed their tune. They have said, 'Well, Harvard actually has made a lot of adjustments that we were asking for.' They launched this antisemitism task force that came out with a pretty searing report a few weeks ago. They adopted a definition of antisemitism, even though a lot of scholars said that it went too far to suppress free speech. They've also made a lot of progress in the overall environment for discourse on campus.
So even some of the big donors who were really upset last year have told us that they are giving again to Harvard.
Leung:
Back in April, Garber penned this very defiant letter to the campus community, making it very clear that Harvard would not fold to any of Trump's demands. Basically it sounded like Trump wanted to put the university in receivership, of some sort.
Do you think there's any negotiation going on, even privately?
The Boston Globe editorial board recently urged conservative Harvard alums like Bill Ackman, Steven Bannon, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to try to broker peace or some kind of truce between Harvard and the administration.
Do you think any of that is happening behind the scenes?
Burns:
None that we can tell.
Our latest reporting shows that conversations have completely broken down. Trump is out there disparaging Harvard, often in public, in pretty intense statements and remarks about them.
He was quoted saying Harvard is 'getting their ass kicked' this week.
And he's not wrong. This is really painful. What they're going through right now, they have cut off a critical source of funding.
The threat of international enrollment at Harvard is an unthinkable threat to the institution and international enrollment is about a quarter of the student body.
Those international scholars contribute so much to the academic vitality of the institution. It's really what makes Harvard
Harvard
, as Garber said recently.
Harvard's enduring a lot of pain, but there's no signs that we can tell that they are talking right now. It's really a question of, can Harvard outlast this administration at this point?
Leung:
Let's sear in on the status of international students, because that's what makes Harvard a really special place, the ability to draw the best and brightest students and researchers from all over the world.
Even if Harvard wins its lawsuit, to stop the administration from preventing international students coming to Harvard, is the damage done?
Would international students even want to take the risk of trying to study in the United States, especially because Harvard has a target on its back?
Burns:
We are hearing a lot of concern about that. I think right now we're hearing people saying, 'What parents would want to send their child to the US based on what has been happening here?'
We hear anecdotes of people saying, 'Will my child get a parking ticket and then end up being detained because of something they said on social media?' There's just so much risk that academics I talk to are really worried about.
We'll see students opting to go study in Australia or the United Kingdom or any number of countries instead of the United States. So, it's something that we'll be watching closely. We just don't know what kind of chilling effect the actions and rhetoric as of late will have.
Leung:
What do Harvard's actions this year tell us about the changing shape of elite higher education?
Hilary:
It is interesting right now. The Trump administration is still working on its vision for higher education. They haven't laid out a concrete vision. It feels like they're throwing a wrecking ball at higher education.
Several questions I have are, 'What is the plan? Where will there be growth? Do you really wanna hurt all of American higher education? Where do you want it to change?'
Based on conversations I've been having with folks at The Heritage Foundation and others close to the Trump administration, they tell me that there are places around the country that they think are doing better than some of the schools in the Northeast that they believe are just too far left, in their mind.
However, they think that higher education in America is not where they need it to be with diversity, equity, and inclusion. It really comes down to DEI. They want to pull out DEI from all academic institutions.
It will be really interesting to see how that plays out, because they're clearly using all the levers available to them to push schools to align with their worldview. So, we'll see how schools navigate that space.
We are seeing more and more DEI offices being renamed, shut down, or resources are reallocated throughout universities. I expect that will only continue.
Leung:
Why is the Trump administration still so focused on rolling back diversity, equity, inclusion?
Are they just using that to destroy higher education or are they really just going after DEI?
Burns:
When I ask these folks what this is really about, they really believe that there is an anti-white bias at these institutions. It's illegal in their view and they want these schools to enforce civil rights laws.
They believe that DEI offices create this ideology and this mindset of anti-white bias. That's really what it comes down to.
Leung:
What are you watching going into the summer? Will Alan Garber still be president by the fall? Will Penny Pritzker, the senior fellow at the governing board of Harvard, still be around?
It seems like there are a lot of heads rolled in higher education during these times. What are you looking for?
Burns:
Even before Trump took office, it is pretty remarkable that Republicans have knocked down four Ivy League presidents in 18 months.
So will Alan Garber have a job moving forward? The Harvard community is certainly behind him and Harvard makes decisions for Harvard as of right now, so I don't think he'll go anywhere. I think there is a lot of support behind him.
We are reporting that the Trump administration is calling for him and Penny Pritzker to resign.
I haven't seen any indication that will happen, but I guess anything could happen. I think it's so interesting seeing so much disruption in this sector that really has always done business the same way.
So, I'm watching to see how schools are navigating this moment of immense uncertainty. And of course, at Harvard, we're waiting to see what shoe drops next and how they'll continue to navigate this really impossible situation they're in with the Trump administration.
Leung:
Well, Hilary, I know you are super busy. There's so much going on with Harvard and all of higher education, so thank you for coming on.
Hilary Burns covers higher education for the Boston Globe. I hope you get some kind of summer break.
Burns:
Yeah, maybe. I'll chase my toddler around the beach a couple times, but I think there's much to do right now in higher education, so I'll stay on it.
Listen to more 'Say More' episodes at
Kara Mihm of the Globe staff contributed to this report.
Shirley Leung is a Business columnist. She can be reached at