Canada Reads contenders Ma-Nee Chacaby and Shayla Stonechild discuss finding allies in Indigenous communities

CBC

03-03-2025

Ma-Nee Chacaby was just four years old when her kokum (grandmother) first made the observation that her granddaughter was two-spirit, a term identifying an Indigenous person with both masculine and feminine spirits within them.
It would take many years before Ma-Nee accepted this about herself and came out as a two-spirit lesbian to her children and community. As a person of a younger generation than Ma-Nee and the founder of the Matriarch Movement, this was a story that spoke deeply to Canada Reads champion Shayla Stonechild.
In A Two-Spirit Journey, Chacaby, an Ojibwa-Cree lesbian who grew up in a remote northern Ontario community, tells the story of how she overcame experiences with abuse and alcohol addiction to become a counsellor and lead Thunder Bay's first gay pride parade.
Stonechild is a Red River Métis and Nehiyaw iskwew (Plains Cree woman) from Muscowpetung First Nations. She founded the Matriarch Movement, an online platform, podcast and nonprofit that amplifies Indigenous voices and provides wellness opportunities for Indigenous women and two-spirit individuals.
Leading up to the Canada Reads 2025 debates, Chacaby and Stonechild were joined by Ali Hassan on The Next Chapter to talk about what being two-spirit means to them.
Ali Hassan: Ma-Nee talks about her childhood and her traditional life on the land and you read about that in the book. What do you think?
Shayla Stonechild: For me, I'm just struck by the beauty of how simple life was or seemed back in the day and how a lot of those skills a lot of us don't have. I don't think a lot of us could even survive on the land right now. Unfortunately, a lot of us Indigenous people are losing our language [although] a lot of us are reclaiming it, though, too.
And so I think the perseverance that Ma-Nee has and the way she embodies the teachings of her grandmother and also the way she just gives back was something that I was inspired by.
AH: The title of this book is A Two-Spirit Journey and I wanted to ask you about that journey. Your grandmother first recognized that you had two spirits living inside you, what does having two spirits mean to you?
MC: That time I didn't know what that really meant. When I was about 16, she was dying. I asked her what that meant and she told me. She said well, "There's two of you inside your body, mind and soul, one is a male and one is a female. It's up to you how you're going to live your life, but I will let you know that when you do accept those things, you are going to have a hard life because people are not always acceptable anymore."
A long time ago, way back before I was born, before my grandmother was born, in those times, people were two-spirit people. They lived together, they had a good time together, they enjoyed each other. Men were in a good relationship with each other, women were, and they raised their kids, they raised other people's kids – that's how life was.
They were always chosen to be the ones to look after the community when the men went hunting and stuff. Two-spirit people were highly regarded in those days, they were very special people in our lives in that time of my grandmother's and even now with me, she said we were special people. There was a reason why the Creator made us that way.
AH: It struck me how positive and encouraging her messaging was to you about your two-spiritedness. When you came out as a two-spirit lesbian that was much later. Can you tell me why you know why you finally decided to come out and what happened that made you decide that?
MC: My mom arranged my marriage to my kids dad and it didn't work out after. So I left the community with my two babies and my brother, came to Thunder Bay and lived a life. And that's when I started to realize I could live alone. I don't need anybody to look after me or to help me. I was going to raise my kids myself and I did that and I tried to be in a relationship with men, dating them but it didn't seem to work out for me. I realized I am a two-spirit person, then I came out in Thunder Bay.
I had a hard time for a while, people were threatening me, calling me names, even my own people didn't accept me. They told me we're already dealing with racism, now I'm adding something else, they said. And I didn't realize I was responsible for everybody in Thunder Bay. That's what had made me feel like and I felt so awful for coming out because I felt responsible.
I came back home and I realized, "No, I'm not responsible for anybody's life, only mine and my kids. That's it." My kids love me for who I am, I didn't need anybody else's love because I had my grandmother who loved me all my life. I am the grandmother now so I can love myself.
AH: Shayla, I mentioned a lot of your work centres on uplifting Indigenous people. In hearing Ma-Nee's story, do you think things have changed for two-spirit people in the past few decades?
SS:I think we're seeing a lot more of two-spirit voices and advocacy. I'm not two-spirit myself, so I can't speak for the community, but I do have a lot of two-spirit friends and they still deal with a lot of rejection and discrimination and fearing for their own safety.
One of my two-spirit friends, Kairyn, talks about how two-spirit people are disruptors and they're catalysts because he can walk into a room and disrupt that room just through his identity alone and he doesn't even have to say a word, but other people get uncomfortable. And he was like, "I challenge people's perceptions of what they think of the world and what they know through colonial programming."
So that's how I see it now … you really do shift the entire room and you make things change just through being yourself. Why are we so afraid of being ourselves in this world right now? I mean, we should always have room to be seen and be loved for who we are.
I think of how much stronger and how much more powerful could we be if we all just supported one another, even if we have differences or differences of opinion? I think community and kinship is really what heals our communities and so I would love to see that embodied more.
I think community and kinship is really what heals our communities and so I would love to see that embodied more.
MC: Well, the younger generation might change that. I think it's happening more now than it did before. When I came out it was totally dark, but I noticed young people now when they come out, it's wonderful to see them be happy and accepted by their own other friends, which is nice.
AH: Shayla, when you hear Ma-Nee's perspective and her life story, does that change your perspective on gratitude?
SS: It makes me remember to always have gratitude. I wouldn't say it changes my perspective, but it definitely grounds me in knowing that there are people out there like Ma-Nee that gives so freely. She reminds me of my grandfather, actually, because my grandfather did the exact same thing when I was growing up.
Ma-Nee's story really grounds me in what I already know about gratitude. - Shayla Stonechild
So I don't know if it's just an Indigenous thing where you just want to make sure the whole community is good before yourself. But yeah, Ma-Nee's story really grounds me in what I already know about gratitude.