Biting comedy Hacks is taking on late-night talk shows. Things are about to get much darker

The Age

23-04-2025

The third season of Hacks ended on an acutely toxic note: comedy legend Deborah Vance (Jean Smart) had claimed her Holy Grail, a late-night talk show. But her plan to jettison writer Ava Daniels (Hannah Einbinder) goes awry when Ava blackmails her way onto the show's writing staff.
As a twist in an already twisted comedy, it was a poisonous note on which to finish, revealing the scale of ambition in both women in pursuit of their careers. 'That was certainly my thought at the end of season three, where I thought, wow, where are we going to go from here?' says Smart.
'It certainly does get very dark this season. I was a little concerned, not concerned that it wouldn't ultimately work because I trust our writers so implicitly, but I didn't want to lose audience.'
Einbinder describes that as the central question around the trajectory of the new season. 'Whether this relationship can withstand the whiplash of their dynamic. I think that is explored definitely this season in depth.'
The new season steps into an almost uniquely American realm: late-night talk shows. Though Australia has dabbled in the genre, from The World Tonight with Clive Robertson to Tonight Live with Steve Vizard, by and large few local late-night talkies have stood the test of time.
In America, the genre is crowded: Jimmy Kimmel Live, The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon, Late Night with Seth Meyers, Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, The Late Show with Stephen Colbert and others. All, of course, share something in common: they are hosted by men.
'It's still perceived as a little bit unseemly for women to act in certain ways or to tell certain kinds of jokes,' says Smart. (Or 'have a voice', chimes in Einbinder.)
'Some of that will always be true, that we don't necessarily want to see men talking about certain things, we don't want to see women maybe talking about certain things, I don't know whether that's good or not,' says Smart.
'I'm not sure whether it will ever go away completely, but I don't know. It's something about that woman in that chair controlling and making fun of people and controlling everything. I don't know what the psychology is, but maybe we'll change that a little bit.'
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Einbinder described it as a kind of fraternity. 'Like stand-up [comedy], it is a male institution,' she says. 'Not a lot of young people watch late night and so it is for a specific demographic, that those are the people who are being considered, and that's why not only are they all men, but most of them are white. That's definitely a choice.'
So to flip the idea, does that make Hacks less a show about comedy and more an examination of mentors and apprentices, or indeed parents and children, and the almost primal, or even existential, notion that something you create might ultimately replace you?
'Even the beginning, the premise of the show initially is that Deborah's residency is being taken away for some DJ to come in, a younger guy,' says Einbinder. 'The entirety of the show explores that, that's one of the avenues we mine, for sure.'
The tension-soaked relationship between master and apprentice leans on fantastic chemistry between the two actors playing them. That chemistry is reminiscent of the genre's best: Bud Abbott and Lou Costello, William Frawley and Vivian Vance from I Love Lucy, even sparring British comedians Peter Cook and Dudley Moore.
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'I hope people think that about us, that we're sort of a comic duo,' says Smart. 'Those are wonderful examples, and there is something about the tension of their differences, combined with their similarities and their humour, it's just a wonderful combination.
'There are different rhythms [at play in Hacks ]. Deborah can be very frenetic while Ava seems very laid back, and other times Ava can be incredibly neurotic and Deborah just looks at her and just watches her just spin out of control. Those are really fun dynamics to play with.'
In its four seasons, Hacks has been draped with honours: three American Film Institute Awards for television program of the year, two Directors Guild of America Awards for co-creator and frequent director Lucia Aniello, four Golden Globes – two for the series, two for Smart – and nine Emmys, including three for Smart.
It's a rare set of prizes in a genre full of equally brilliant shows, from Chappelle's Show to Parks and Recreation, which enjoyed sustained commercial success but were never showered in the same kind of glory. The point of difference is sometimes difficult to capture.
'I know that our writers are not afraid to be not funny,' says Smart. 'They're not afraid to go to darker places because to them that just reflects real life. You don't have humour without darkness. You don't have darkness without light.
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'And because they're not afraid of that, and they're so bright, and they're so good, they've been able to create characters that the audience falls in love with. Once the audience falls in love with the characters, then you can take them anywhere, you can put the characters in any situation, and the audience will want to watch them.
'That's the secret. And then also, there was just a natural chemistry between Hannah and I that worked.'
And the show's five-year-plan? What's the end game?
' Game of Thrones. Nothing in between,' says Smart, immediately and matter-of-factly. ' Game of Thrones. Behead her. Behead her.'
Smart and Einbinder fall into fits of laughter. 'I think your character would behead mine,' adds Einbinder.
Seriously, though?
'I don't have a clue. I would assume it would be profoundly moving but also funny, please god funny,' says Smart.
Adds Einbinder: 'Realistic, I think. They have never let us down. They have only exceeded any expectation I could have ever had, so I'm sure it'll be beautiful. I'm sure I'll be a big mess.'