Latest news with #DonieOSullivan
CNN
2 days ago
- Business
- CNN
MyPillow guy faces jury in defamation trial
CNN's Donie O'Sullivan talks to MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell as he prepares to take the stand in a defamation case brought against him by a former Dominion Voting Systems employee
CNN
2 days ago
- Business
- CNN
MyPillow guy faces jury in defamation trial
CNN's Donie O'Sullivan talks to MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell as he prepares to take the stand in a defamation case brought against him by a former Dominion Voting Systems employee
CNN
14-05-2025
- Entertainment
- CNN
Persuadable: Scrolling Alone - The Account from CNN - Podcast on CNN Audio
Donie O'Sullivan 00:00:00 There's a very short video I shot of myself a few years ago. I deliberately hid it in an obscure folder in my phone because I didn't want to look at it, but I knew at some point I might need to. In the video, I'm alone, and I'm crying on my couch, and I am saying to myself over and over again, I'll get through it, I'll get through it. Donie O'Sullivan (clip) 00:00:32 I'll get through it, I'm going to. Donie O'Sullivan 00:00:38 It's very hard to watch. I think in my mind as I made the video at the time I knew that future me might need a reminder that even when my depression is very bad that it was going to get better. But I also think I meant it as a bit of a kick up the ass for myself, to say look, Donie, this is how bad things can get for you when you don't take care of yourself, when you don't care of your mind, when you don't maintain connections and a community of support. Our minds can be lonely places, isolating. Whether you're like me, digging yourself into a hole of believing wrong and terrible things about yourself, or you're like some of the people I've talked to in making this podcast, who've fallen down holes of believing wrong and terrible things about the world and who found themselves more alone than ever. I think it's pretty human to only wake up to a crisis when it's too late, and I think if you're one of the many, many people who've found yourself alone in one of these ways, it might feel like it's too late, but it's not. I'm Donie O'Sullivan, and this is Persuadeable. Diane Benscoter 00:02:21 I just really wanted so much for my life to have more meaning. I knew that if I didn't do something drastic that I would end up marrying the boy down the street, and I knew that I couldn't do that. Donie O'Sullivan 00:02:36 And so then you found the Moonies. Diane Benscoter 00:02:38 Yeah. Donie O'Sullivan 00:02:39 Or the Moonies found you. Diane Benscoter 00:02:41 Yes. Donie O'Sullivan 00:02:42 People who go really deep on conspiracy theory beliefs like QAnon can start to sound like they're in a cult, and Diane Benscoter is an expert on cults. When she was a teenager, she was recruited into the Unification Church, otherwise known as "the Moonies." It was led by a charismatic Korean man named Sun Myung Moon who claimed to be the second coming of Christ and had millions of devoted followers. Sun Myung Moon (clip) 00:03:10 I have a mission to share this revelation with you and the rest of the world. Donie O'Sullivan 00:03:17 'I first met Diane when I was making the documentary on Michael Protzman, the QAnon leader who convinced so many people to descend upon Dallas in 2021 for what might be the return of JFK or JFK Jr. Diane now runs a non-profit called Antidote, which helps people trying to free loved ones from controlling groups, groups that are built around conspiracy theories or hate, or groups that we might traditionally think of as a cult. And what Diane does really well is make the connection of the similarities between people who are very deep down rabbit holes of conspiracy theories and people who are in cults. And it really starts with her own story, which begins in a small town called York, Nebraska in 1974. Diane Benscoter 00:04:12 I was 17. There was a lot of social unrest in society. Especially young people were disconnected from the politics of the era. A lot of young people were rebelling against what was going on in society, and I felt let down by my parents' generation, and I also felt like they just didn't understand. I wasn't angry at them for it. I just wanted them to understand that I needed to do something different. Donie O'Sullivan 00:04:45 'Diane dropped out of high school and moved to the big city of Lincoln, Nebraska. She had an idea that she could write for the local paper, and she stumbled across what she thought could be her first story: some activists organizing a multi-state march for peace. Diane Benscoter 00:05:01 So it was a walk from Omaha to Des Moines. It was five days. So I went to the little house where we were gonna begin the walk, and there were all these kind of weirdly dressed people that were sponsoring this, but they were really friendly, like super friendly. And it was the Moonies. Donie O'Sullivan 00:05:27 She went with them, and over those five days, during lectures in church basements at night where the group would camp out, she got sucked in. Diane Benscoter 00:05:39 They were asking me questions no one asked me. They cared about what mattered to me, and they were really sincere in believing that I was something special. When they told me that they thought God had prepared me to be part of this great thing that was happening, it made sense to me. I started thinking, this explains everything. This is why I didn't feel like I fit in. God was calling me. The pain that I was experiencing as a young person, confused about the world I lived in, was totally gone. To feel like that idealism that I held so close to my heart was right, that I should believe in a better world, that felt so good. It was my dream come true, really. Donie O'Sullivan 00:06:38 She moved into a house with other members of the church. Her family was concerned. Diane Benscoter 00:06:45 I invited my family to the lectures, but no one was very interested. They had prepared me for that, though. They told me that Satan works through the ones you love. Donie O'Sullivan 00:06:54 Diane's life completely changed. Diane Benscoter 00:06:57 I didn't have to question the meaning of my life. I didn't have to question or grapple with the complexities of the world. And so that part felt great, but it's not very fulfilling life to be part of a cult. It's hard, at least it was for me. Donie O'Sullivan 00:07:17 The church had rules for everything: what to wear, say, do, think. And it worked its members hard. Diane Benscoter 00:07:26 I was assigned to what was called the Mobile Fundraising Teams. We were the soldiers, we were the frontline of God's work. We worked, I mean, 18 hours a day, many days, I was out on the streets selling candy and flowers. Donie O'Sullivan 00:07:39 Diane gave five years of her life to the Moonies. Her entire identity, her purpose, it was all tied up in the church. But cracks had started to form, and one day when she was staying with family, she had a surprise visitor. It was a former member of the Moonies, who her parents had called in to try to Diane out of returning to the church. Diane Benscoter 00:08:05 'I thought maybe I'd bring her back into the fold, you know. I thought, well, here's an ex-Moonie. She's just confused. Satan has gotten to her. And I'm going back to headquarters. Maybe I could bring her with me. So I thought I'd go back a hero. But as she started talking to me, she started making sense, and it was like a whisper in the back of my mind. What if this whole thing is a lie, started to come to my mind, you know, after about day two, day three of her talking with me. I just couldn't hang on anymore. Donie O'Sullivan 00:08:40 Diane got out, and she's devoted her life since to helping other people get out of cults and rabbit holes of extreme and conspiracy theory belief. Diane says the key to helping people break free is what we've heard over and over again in this podcast. It's empathy. And, like others we've spoken to, Diane says it can be hard for us to access our own empathy for somebody who believes things that we don't. But her own experience and that of so many of the people she has met over the years has made her understand what opens the door to that empathy. It's pain. Pain is what leads people down rabbit holes, and all of us feel pain. Diane Benscoter 00:09:35 I have found that there's kind of a cult for everyone. If anger, for instance, is the main thing you feel, then you might be drawn to a hate group because it gives you an enemy and it gives you someone to blame. And I think that can happen with confusion about the world you live in, with feeling like you don't fit in or with loneliness. Remember, this is all happening on a psychological level. People think it happens on a cognitive level and that these are logical decisions that people are making, but most decisions are made from a place of wanting to feel better. You wanna feel better when you're in pain. And I think if you understand that the person is not just stupid, if you understood that what has happened to them could happen to anyone, you can get to empathy faster. I think it's so easy to get in fact arguments. I think that's one of the problems with people who are experts in disinformation is they're focusing on this is wrong, this is right. This is where the lie comes from. This is where it's going. That's where all the research is. That's what people are talking about. And they're missing the fact of why. There's a purpose in this disinformation, and it's packaged this way for a reason. It's aiming straight at people's pain and people's need for community. Donie O'Sullivan 00:11:11 That's what so many of us are missing right now, not necessarily a community that shares every belief we have, but any kind of community. Diane Benscoter 00:11:22 I think people are really in distress and confused and angry and scared and feel lonely, and those are hard emotions to deal with. So how do we mend those fences and realize we're all in this together, you know? Donie O'Sullivan 00:11:46 More than anybody else that I spoke to in making this series, Diane made the point about the universality of our vulnerability to false belief so clear. There's a cult for all of us. Maybe it's just a matter of being in the wrong frame of mind at the wrong time. But there's hope here, too. Because it's true that empathy and connection are the route to helping people get out of the darkest holes of false belief. And we're also starting to understand that social connection is the key to preventing the fall in the first place. We'll be right back. Pete Davis 00:12:32 'People have a community-sized hole in their heart, they have a meaning hole in their heart, and something is gonna fill it. Donie O'Sullivan 00:12:38 'Pete Davis is a self-described civics nerd, and when he was a student at Harvard, his entire understanding of how democracy works was turned on its head by one of his professors, the political scientist Robert Putnam. Pete Davis 00:12:52 We think that politics is about what goes on in Washington. What was so amazing about Robert Putnam as a professor was, you know, he was saying, actually the center of gravity of our democracy is what happens in ordinary neighborhoods all across the country. It's our civic life, it's our neighbor to neighbor interactions, it's the clubs that we're part of. Book Notes (clip) 00:13:11 This week on Book Notes, our guest is Robert Putnam, Professor of Public Policy at Harvard University. Donie O'Sullivan 00:13:17 Putnam is best known for his book, Bowling Alone. It came out in the year 2000, and it's about the decline of American civic engagement. Book Notes Host (clip) 00:13:28 Robert D. Putnam, author of Bowling Alone, what's the theory of your book? Robert Putnam (clip) 00:13:32 The theory is that social capital, social connections, community connections have value for people. And for most of the last century or so, that was more and more true. And then somehow, mysteriously, all those trends turned downward, and we began doing all those things less, connecting less with other people. And so this book is about why it happened and what difference it makes and what we might do about it. Donie O'Sullivan 00:13:56 'That decline in ordinary neighbor-to-neighbor connections and people participating in clubs, unions, and bowling leagues — it continued. Pete took Robert Putnam's class about a decade after Bowling Alone came out. At that point, most people weren't really feeling the impacts of the great decline, or at least they hadn't noticed them yet. Pete Davis 00:14:21 We were actually in a pretty like hopeful civic time. You know, most people at the time thought the latest startup was gonna solve everything. You know Facebook was gonna connect the world. The latest politician was gonna bring a new generation of hope and change into our country. And over the 10 years since the class, every year it's gotten worse and worse and worse and worse civically, and the symptoms are piling and piling up. Donie O'Sullivan 00:14:45 Those symptoms of our civic decline were things that Pete's sister Rebecca was confronting every day. She was working as a video producer for NBC News, doing stories on the opioid crisis, school shootings, disinformation and political polarization. And she'd started to feel conflicted. Rebecca Davis 00:15:08 I was hitting a point where I was just feeling I could not continue to cover the symptoms over and over again. Even when it wasn't a major tragedy that I was out covering, I was also just walking around talking to people who just felt like things were off in their community. Occasionally, you know, were expressing to me that they didn't trust the work that we were doing. So I was feeling that decline in trust in the media. And so I got to this point was, I was like, what's the point? Donie O'Sullivan 00:15:39 Pete and Rebecca started working on a documentary about Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone research. To them, it felt like Putnam's work and his warnings were more important than ever. People are divided, trust in institutions is low, and, maybe most urgently, people are lonely. Their documentary, which came out last year, has a clear message: Get involved, join a club, meet your neighbors, gather with people. They gave it a kind of dramatic name: Join or Die. The urgency is the point. Rebecca Davis 00:16:15 Suicide is up 30% in the U.S. since bowling alone came out in 2000. So for our physical health, you know, we need to be joining things, and then also for the health of our democracy. If we don't start joining and participating, it's not a given that, you know, our democracy is going to be around, and it's certainly not functioning as well as it could be. Pete Davis 00:16:38 'The last time this was polled clearly, 40% of Americans belonged to no groups. And then two-thirds belong to none or only one. So 70 years ago, that would have been, most people would have belonged to three, four, five groups. It would have been very normal. It's very generational. Every succeeding generation is belonging to less and less. Donie O'Sullivan 00:16:58 You mentioned, obviously, Bowling Alone was released in 2000, and I think what's important about it is that it serves as a reminder that community in the U.S. was declining and in trouble long before Facebook, long before Twitter. But obviously, what has happened since, I mean, shit has really hit the fan since this book has come out, you know? Pete Davis 00:17:22 It's gotten worse. Donie O'Sullivan 00:17:23 Yeah, and I think about this sometimes in terms of, I spoke to some evangelical pastors a few years ago, who were losing congregants, and obviously there's lots of factors there, but one thing they did say is, look, I only have an hour a week with people. Facebook has them for the other 167 hours in the week. Rebecca Davis 00:17:45 Yes, yes. Donie O'Sullivan 00:17:49 These tools, these phones, they are very effective at building a specific type of community, i.e. an online community. And it's very hard to compete with that. That poses a unique challenge. Rebecca Davis 00:18:03 You know, I think we should remember who is giving us the language with which we talk about these platforms. So, you know, Facebook and many other of these groups have taken the words of community. You know, they've even had it as elements of their application, like... Donie O'Sullivan 00:18:19 Groups. Rebecca Davis 00:18:19 'Groups, community. But I think, you now, the language matters, and I think we should be conscious of that and take some of that back. You know, these are tools, and they can be used to do good organizing out in the world where we're meeting face-to-face and building actual community, you know, that is worthy of that word. That's not to say you can't build some level of community that is strictly online, but are you shutting down that application to go to bed and feeling filled up in the same way as, you know, a dinner party with good friends? And the answer is no. Pete Davis 00:18:54 We're settling for this junk version of community. You know, candy fills you up and gives you a sugar high, but, you know, a good hearty meal gives you all these other things that keep you healthy. And so, you know what is the low plateau that we're settling for? Donie O'Sullivan 00:19:10 For my job, I go to a lot of Trump rallies, and I go to a lot of QAnon events, and I got to a lot of stuff that really seems out there. But the one common thread through all of them is community. Rebecca Davis 00:19:26 Yeah, yeah. 00:19:27 People are gathering together, and they're having a really good time. Rebecca Davis 00:19:30 Yeah, people are hungry for that connection, and I think there's a story of hope and a green shoot in that, that, you know, if we can create more spaces, more community, more places where people are feeling seen and known and just plain having fun. Then, when QAnon does come knocking on your door, you know, you're already busy on Tuesday night because you've got a Rotary Club meeting or you've got a bowling league, and it's costume night down at the bowling league, and you're getting dressed up. You know, and obviously, this isn't a new phenomenon just with the internet. You know the KKK, as Bob likes to point out, is also a club. Donie O'Sullivan 00:20:10 'Mm-hmm Rebecca Davis 00:20:10 'But, you know, for the people that already had organizations speaking to that pro-social side of their heart, they were going to be less vulnerable to get pulled into these groups that play on our worst sides. Donie O'Sullivan 00:20:26 You guys have touched on the lack of trust in institutions, us all spending less time together in person. Where do you see the popularity of conspiracy theories fitting into all of this? Pete Davis 00:20:40 When you have a low trust society where not a lot of people are participating in civic life, powerful institutions no longer have watchdogs. The powerful actually become less trustworthy. Maybe their conspiracy theories are wrong about the mechanisms that work, but they're right about the direction that institutions stop looking out for you when you have a low civic society. Rebecca Davis 00:20:59 Yeah, an example that if you don't have a vibrant local newspaper watchdogging, you know, to be able to expose misuse of funds at the city or state level, you know, they're very well could be... Pete Davis 00:21:11 The mayor is more likely to be corrupt and, you know, be giving money to their friends. Even if the institutions are good, they're experienced as a black box because you're not participating in civic life. You don't have the relationships to the person that's working at City Hall. And then even if City Hall is perfect, and they're angels, and they're doing everything right, your mind is naturally going to go towards conspiracy theories because humans love pattern recognition, and we go haywire with our pattern recognition. So, okay, those are the two negative things. You get corruption, and then you get conspiracy theories. Both of these sides, they think they're going to solve this without, you know, increasing civic life. The people on the inside keep saying, well, we need to explain ourselves better. We need to make sure we have a better marketing of all the good stuff we're doing. People on the outside, they think we're going throw the bums out, and we're gonna put our guys in. But every time the conspiracy theorists successfully throw the bums out and put their guys in, what happens? They start having conspiracies about their own guys. They say, oh, he used to be with us, but now they got to him, too. What is the answer to this? It's not better messaging. It's not throwing the bums out and getting your guys in. It's rejuvenating civic life, it's increasing community, so that you blur the line between insiders and outsiders, so that you actually know what's going on, and because you know what going on, the mayor is less corrupt, and you know how the government works more. And so that's one of the goals with this. We think there'll be less corruption and less conspiracy theories if there is more vibrant civic life. Donie O'Sullivan 00:22:43 What I do find interesting and maybe potentially a sign of hope is that a lot of younger people are less likely to be like, hey I'm Democrat, hey I'm Republican, it's more like, both parties are flawed, and I have some thoughts that are Republican, some thoughts are Democrat. And, you know, I am just wondering if maybe the next, you know, as generations go, maybe that opens some more space? Rebecca Davis 00:23:08 Yeah, I think there's a hope but a fear there, too, because that can quickly move into apathy. And when we're living in an apathetic country, I mean, that's when our democracy dies. So there is an opportunity with that generation, but, you know, we really need to capture them and get them involved and participating. Pete Davis 00:23:26 We're actually at a most dangerous level when people feel like nothing. We want people feeling and being connected to a lot of things, like, you know, the way that a forest is strong, not the way that a, like, vacuum is strong. The goal is an entire ecosystem of all the different ways that we are in the world. So, you know, you go to church, and you're interacting with people of different races and cultures. And then you go to your bowling league, and you're interacting with people of different religions. And you go your labor union, and you might all be the same economic situation, but then you're learning across difference because you have to come together in solidarity to do a strike. And then, you're going to your political party, and that's a different thing. And the goal is that by having multiple of these passions, it as a whole moderates you and moderates the system without ever having to turn down the dial on being passionate about things. It'll just naturally happen by being passionate about multiple things. Rebecca Davis 00:24:23 'Yeah, there's been a lot of talk, you know, as we are living through this moment of hyper-polarization, like we need to bridge more across the divides and how do we get a Republican in a room and a Democrat, and they can just talk to each other. And, you know, I think what Pete is speaking to here is we just need to bring more identities into our life so that one doesn't have quite such an intense level of hold on our lives. So that, yes, maybe I voted this way at the ballot box, and maybe this is how I participate politically, but I have five other hats that I also wear, so that then when there are those kind of disagreements across political lines, it isn't cutting so deeply that, you know, my whole life and my whole identity is coming from this. Donie O'Sullivan 00:25:07 Are you guys members of any clubs, groups? Rebecca Davis 00:25:10 We are so, actually while we were producing this film, I was organizing a union with coworkers. We were organizing about 200 of us. Pete Davis 00:25:17 I'm part of a book club for people who are into this kind of democracy nerd stuff. Donie O'Sullivan 00:25:22 Oh, very good. Rebecca Davis 00:25:22 I also play pickleball. Pete Davis 00:25:25 We're also fun. Donie O'Sullivan 00:25:27 'I'm just thinking, I'm not part of any clubs or groups. I have groups of friends. I mean, I work a lot. A few years ago, whenever my last major mental breakdown was, a therapist asked me, what are your hobbies? And I realized I didn't have any. And so over the past few years, I have made a very intentional effort to get some hobbies. So, one, I read more, I try and- watch some actual non-work-related TV series, and I go to the gym. But I'm realizing they're all quite isolating. I mean, I can have conversations about these things, but I'm doing it on my own. Rebecca Davis 00:26:11 Yeah, you know, these don't have to be heavy lifts. Like if we can all take an assessment of our life and say, what am I doing alone right now that I could be doing together? And you know maybe that is going to the gym. Start going with a couple other folks. Maybe it is watching movies. Start a movie watching club where you discuss the film after. The list goes on. Donie O'Sullivan 00:26:31 I mean, I guess a lot of what we're hoping to do in this series is helping people who are either in rabbit holes of conspiracy theories themselves or have loved ones in there, how to get out. And what I'm hearing from you guys is, is join a club! That gives you purpose, that gives you community, but also it allows somebody to check you on something, doesn't it? Rebecca Davis 00:26:56 Yes. Pete Davis 00:26:58 Yeah, which is part of community. Rebecca Davis 00:27:01 The good news, though, if you're starting a club, people are very available. You know, I think that's what we want to start planting those seeds right now. And this isn't a problem that's going to turn around fast, but it is a problem that once it starts turning around, there's a chance for things to spread exponentially. It also gives you a chance to be the president. If you're in a club, there are elections, there is a president, and, you know, if you're feeling a lack of agency, you know... Donie O'Sullivan 00:27:33 That's great. Donie O'Sullivan 00:27:40 'nAnI don't consider myself a particularly optimistic person, at least not professionally. I've actually gotten into arguments with my editors about this. A lot of the stuff I cover, it's pretty dark: QAnon, cults, hate groups. And sometimes an editor will push for some kind of neat little solution at the end of a story. How can this all be fixed? And I normally don't have a solution, and, frankly, I don't think it's my job to. It's not really the job of a journalist even to be particularly optimistic. Our jobs are about recording history and holding a mirror up to society. But I got to a point, I guess, like Rebecca did, where I wanted to try and at least talk about a solution. And I think for a few years, we were all kind of grappling with and frankly distracted by how seemingly new and novel and really bizarre conspiracy theories like QAnon are and rightly concerned about how dangerous things like election denialism are. And so, I don't think we could have made this podcast in 2020 or 2021. I don't think a lot of people would have had much appetite to try and empathetically understand what's happening in the mind of an anti-vaxxer or an election denier. And it is scary how normal these very abnormal beliefs are becoming. Everyone seems to know someone down a rabbit hole, or at least poking around one. And it's hard to accept that, but that is the reality. And it's particularly scary when you think of how many of these rabbit holes are lined with racism and antisemitism and hate. Obviously, there is no shortage of dark, historical parallels we can draw on when a large chunk of the population becomes untethered from reality and are willing to believe the worst about the other side. So that's the realist in me. Things really aren't great right now. But, as the saying goes, the best way out is always through. And like I told myself in that video I talked about at the start of this episode, you can get through this. We can get through this. I'm Donie O'Sullivan, and this is Persuadable. Our producers are Graelyn Brashear and Emily Williams. Haley Thomas is our Senior Producer. Dan Dzula is our Technical Director, and Steve Lickteig is Executive Producer of CNN Audio. With support from Sean Clark, Logan Whiteside, Robert Mathers, Dan Bloom, Grace Walker, Jesse Remedios, Kyra Dahring, and Jamus Andrest. A special thank you to Patricia DiCarlo and Wendy Brundige. Thank you for listening.
CNN
07-05-2025
- Politics
- CNN
How smart people fall for conspiracy theories
A version of this story appeared in CNN's What Matters newsletter. To get it in your inbox, sign up for free here . Who falls into the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories and how can you reach them? That's the topic of a three-episode season of CNN's new narrative podcast series 'The Account.' Donie O'Sullivan covers politics and technology for CNN and that intersection frequently leads him to stories about how misinformation spreads online. What I found most compelling about this new series is the idea that it's frequently very smart people who fall for crazy-seeming conspiracy theories. I talked to O'Sullivan about the podcast, how to have empathy for people who fall down rabbit holes and how conspiracy theories are influencing people at the top of government. Our conversation, edited for length, is below. Wolf: This is a multi-part podcast about how people, including yourself, can fall for misinformation. What made you decide to pursue this? O'Sullivan: We do a lot of these stories on conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists, and I can't tell you how many hundreds, thousands of messages I've got from viewers saying, 'I have a loved one – friend, brother, sister, mom, dad – who is sort of falling down this rabbit hole, and I have no idea what to do.' I never really had much of a solution for them. What I wanted to do with this was to try to come up with something that could help. Psychologists and people who've gotten out of conspiracy theory rabbit holes themselves – they all talk about how empathy plays such an important role. That way, when someone is ready to or wants to come out of it, that they know they have a loved one to come back to and that they can come out of the rabbit hole with dignity and not be told they're stupid, etc. Wolf: In fact, some of the experts tell you people who can fall into conspiracy theories are frequently pretty smart people. Explain that. O'Sullivan: I think we have this idea – and in some ways it might be comforting to think –that it's only quote-unquote 'crazy' people that can find themselves in this situation. But it really isn't, and I know that from meeting many people over the years. These are your moms and dads, brothers, sisters. A lot of times, it is people who have had some life event, a big change in their life, or a trauma, and whatever has happened, they are searching for meaning, purpose, answers; searching for community. That is why 2020, with the lockdowns and the uncertainty about COVID and all of us just isolating and spending more time just with our screens, we saw conspiracy theories really flourish. Wolf: It was like a collective life event. O'Sullivan: Conspiracy theories can offer very easy answers to very difficult questions. Wolf: You talk about yourself kind of teetering on the edge of rabbit holes. Was there a particular thing that you found yourself talking yourself out of? O'Sullivan: Oh God, that's tricky. Less than me flirting with conspiracy theories and more that I can fall in a rabbit hole in my own mind – of depression and anxiety and believing irrational thoughts about myself that many people who struggle with depression would recognize… believing I'm a terrible person, or dwelling on things, beating yourself up irrationally. Wolf: I thought that was an interesting moment where you and one of the experts wonder if there's a sort of comfort in an evil conspiracy – because it places order on things, whereas reality, which can be very random, can make anyone feel powerless. O'Sullivan: I think we want to find order, right? We want to think there's a reason why things are happening, and at least someone is in charge, even if that someone is evil. I think it's hard for us as human beings to really believe that things are random. Going back to Covid. One of the big Covid conspiracy theories was that this was a man-made virus that was deliberately spread, right? There's somebody controlling it. It's not random. It's not an accident. I think Covid is also a lesson for all of us, too, that just because people who normally are repeating conspiracy theories say something doesn't mean they're wrong. Looking at the Covid lab leak theory and the discourse around that, it's obviously changed a lot over the years. So this stuff, it's really, really tricky. If you're just a regular person, you're up against it, right? It's a multimillion if not multibillion-dollar industry, disinformation, right? There's just so many people online, grifting and making a lot of money out of spreading misinformation. There's people thriving in this uncertainty and relying on it. Wolf: That's almost a conspiracy theory in itself, the idea that misinformation is this organized business. O'Sullivan: That's something I've been tracking for years. You only have to look at what Alex Jones' enterprise was valued at during the Sandy Hook parents trial a year or two ago. There's a lot of money in this. There's a lot of money in selling fear. If you listen to a lot of the you know, quote, unquote, 'independent, alternative' podcasts. They are telling you the world's about to end and telling you about all these evil forces, and then they're selling you doomsday type products that will help quell the fears that they are stoking, whether that be freeze-dried food or emergency kits. There's an enormous grift in this. Wolf: The entire time I was listening to this, I was thinking about Elon Musk, for instance, who pushes a version of replacement theory that fuels things he's doing to cut the US government. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. actively believes that Anthony Fauci was involved in a conspiracy around coronavirus vaccines. Kennedy wrote a book about it. Conspiracy theories are arguably pushing national policy at this point. How do you apply empathy to a policy that you disagree with, that's being fueled by something that you know is factually inaccurate? O'Sullivan: It sort of feels like we're through the looking glass in that way. Conspiracy theories are informing decisions, seemingly at the highest level of government. We even saw Trump talking about the photoshopped image on a man's hands. For years, editors would always annoyingly ask me, as I'm doing these stories, 'Can we put something in at the end that's maybe a solution that could help people?' And I was always very much of the opinion that, one, I don't have a solution because there's no easy solutions here. And two, it's not really my job, or the job of a journalist, to come up with solutions. I view my job as reporting on the phenomenon of misinformation, how people consume it and why they believe it. So with that in mind, what we're putting forth in this series is not going to work for everybody. It might be helpful. But I think what we are trying to do is at least provoke people into thinking about, 'Okay, what is it that people are getting out of these conspiracy theories, or what are they lacking in their life that has led them down this path?' But to the other question – there's a lot of conspiracy theories that are antisemitic or are targeting migrants or are homophobic. If you're part of those communities, I mean, how could you even imagine being empathetic to somebody who believes something that threatens your whole existence? I don't want this to come off as a preachy type thing, telling people, 'Oh, have empathy.' The series is about how you could have conversations at a family level and try to get in the headspace of a loved one who's gone down a rabbit hole.
CNN
07-05-2025
- Politics
- CNN
Analysis: How smart people fall for conspiracy theories
A version of this story appeared in CNN's What Matters newsletter. To get it in your inbox, sign up for free here . CNN — Who falls into the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories and how can you reach them? That's the topic of a three-episode season of CNN's new narrative podcast series 'The Account.' Donie O'Sullivan covers politics and technology for CNN and that intersection frequently leads him to stories about how misinformation spreads online. What I found most compelling about this new series is the idea that it's frequently very smart people who fall for crazy-seeming conspiracy theories. I talked to O'Sullivan about the podcast, how to have empathy for people who fall down rabbit holes and how conspiracy theories are influencing people at the top of government. Our conversation, edited for length, is below. Wolf: This is a multi-part podcast about how people, including yourself, can fall for misinformation. What made you decide to pursue this? O'Sullivan: We do a lot of these stories on conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists, and I can't tell you how many hundreds, thousands of messages I've got from viewers saying, 'I have a loved one – friend, brother, sister, mom, dad – who is sort of falling down this rabbit hole, and I have no idea what to do.' I never really had much of a solution for them. What I wanted to do with this was to try to come up with something that could help. Psychologists and people who've gotten out of conspiracy theory rabbit holes themselves – they all talk about how empathy plays such an important role. That way, when someone is ready to or wants to come out of it, that they know they have a loved one to come back to and that they can come out of the rabbit hole with dignity and not be told they're stupid, etc. Wolf: In fact, some of the experts tell you people who can fall into conspiracy theories are frequently pretty smart people. Explain that. O'Sullivan: I think we have this idea – and in some ways it might be comforting to think –that it's only quote-unquote 'crazy' people that can find themselves in this situation. But it really isn't, and I know that from meeting many people over the years. These are your moms and dads, brothers, sisters. A lot of times, it is people who have had some life event, a big change in their life, or a trauma, and whatever has happened, they are searching for meaning, purpose, answers; searching for community. That is why 2020, with the lockdowns and the uncertainty about COVID and all of us just isolating and spending more time just with our screens, we saw conspiracy theories really flourish. Wolf: It was like a collective life event. O'Sullivan: Conspiracy theories can offer very easy answers to very difficult questions. Wolf: You talk about yourself kind of teetering on the edge of rabbit holes. Was there a particular thing that you found yourself talking yourself out of? O'Sullivan: Oh God, that's tricky. Less than me flirting with conspiracy theories and more that I can fall in a rabbit hole in my own mind – of depression and anxiety and believing irrational thoughts about myself that many people who struggle with depression would recognize… believing I'm a terrible person, or dwelling on things, beating yourself up irrationally. Wolf: I thought that was an interesting moment where you and one of the experts wonder if there's a sort of comfort in an evil conspiracy – because it places order on things, whereas reality, which can be very random, can make anyone feel powerless. O'Sullivan: I think we want to find order, right? We want to think there's a reason why things are happening, and at least someone is in charge, even if that someone is evil. I think it's hard for us as human beings to really believe that things are random. Going back to Covid. One of the big Covid conspiracy theories was that this was a man-made virus that was deliberately spread, right? There's somebody controlling it. It's not random. It's not an accident. I think Covid is also a lesson for all of us, too, that just because people who normally are repeating conspiracy theories say something doesn't mean they're wrong. Looking at the Covid lab leak theory and the discourse around that, it's obviously changed a lot over the years. So this stuff, it's really, really tricky. If you're just a regular person, you're up against it, right? It's a multimillion if not multibillion-dollar industry, disinformation, right? There's just so many people online, grifting and making a lot of money out of spreading misinformation. There's people thriving in this uncertainty and relying on it. Wolf: That's almost a conspiracy theory in itself, the idea that misinformation is this organized business. O'Sullivan: That's something I've been tracking for years. You only have to look at what Alex Jones' enterprise was valued at during the Sandy Hook parents trial a year or two ago. There's a lot of money in this. There's a lot of money in selling fear. If you listen to a lot of the you know, quote, unquote, 'independent, alternative' podcasts. They are telling you the world's about to end and telling you about all these evil forces, and then they're selling you doomsday type products that will help quell the fears that they are stoking, whether that be freeze-dried food or emergency kits. There's an enormous grift in this. Wolf: The entire time I was listening to this, I was thinking about Elon Musk, for instance, who pushes a version of replacement theory that fuels things he's doing to cut the US government. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. actively believes that Anthony Fauci was involved in a conspiracy around coronavirus vaccines. Kennedy wrote a book about it. Conspiracy theories are arguably pushing national policy at this point. How do you apply empathy to a policy that you disagree with, that's being fueled by something that you know is factually inaccurate? O'Sullivan: It sort of feels like we're through the looking glass in that way. Conspiracy theories are informing decisions, seemingly at the highest level of government. We even saw Trump talking about the photoshopped image on a man's hands. For years, editors would always annoyingly ask me, as I'm doing these stories, 'Can we put something in at the end that's maybe a solution that could help people?' And I was always very much of the opinion that, one, I don't have a solution because there's no easy solutions here. And two, it's not really my job, or the job of a journalist, to come up with solutions. I view my job as reporting on the phenomenon of misinformation, how people consume it and why they believe it. So with that in mind, what we're putting forth in this series is not going to work for everybody. It might be helpful. But I think what we are trying to do is at least provoke people into thinking about, 'Okay, what is it that people are getting out of these conspiracy theories, or what are they lacking in their life that has led them down this path?' But to the other question – there's a lot of conspiracy theories that are antisemitic or are targeting migrants or are homophobic. If you're part of those communities, I mean, how could you even imagine being empathetic to somebody who believes something that threatens your whole existence? I don't want this to come off as a preachy type thing, telling people, 'Oh, have empathy.' The series is about how you could have conversations at a family level and try to get in the headspace of a loved one who's gone down a rabbit hole.
