Latest news with #LeahFeiger
WIRED
18-04-2025
- Business
- WIRED
DOGE Has Access to Sensitive Labor Department Data on Immigrants and Farm Workers
Leah Feiger Vittoria Elliott Apr 18, 2025 6:00 AM Three DOGE associates have been granted access to systems at the Department of Labor housing sensitive information on migrant farm workers, visa applicants, and more. Photograph: from Elon Musk's so-called Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) at the Department of Labor (DOL) have access to systems that house sensitive data pertaining to immigrants, sources tell WIRED. This access comes as President Donald Trump's administration has continued its crackdown on immigrants around the US, and DOGE has played a key role in collecting personal data on them. WIRED previously reported that Miles Collins, Aram Moghaddassi, and Marko Elez are all DOGE operatives embedded at the Labor Department. Collins has access to the DOL's National Farmworker Jobs Program (NFJP) system, according to sources with direct knowledge. This program offers funding to organizations that work with migrant and seasonal farmworkers, as well as organizations working on the state level to support job training for low-income farm workers. Last year, the program disbursed $90 million in grants. Anyone legally allowed to work in the United States and who meets the program's criteria is eligible for support. 'When I say 'migrant and seasonal farm workers,' that does not mean somebody who just arrived from Venezuela or something. It means essentially people who are authorized to work in the United States,' says a DOL employee familiar with the program. 'Maybe there's some misunderstanding even among the DOGE guys.' According to the source, access to the NFJP's system could provide the Social Security numbers of every person who is a beneficiary of the program, as well as what kind of services a beneficiary received. (Social Security numbers are assigned to US citizens as well as immigrants legally residing and working in the country.) This kind of data, says the source, is normally 'very, very controlled.' Instructions to grant Moghaddassi access to data from the DOL's Foreign Labor Application Gateway (FLAG) reporting system were also viewed by WIRED. FLAG is responsible for a number of initiatives, including wage protections for foreign workers and visa programs for foreign and temporary workers. Data on visa applicants maintained in FLAG systems, sources say, could include names, work addresses, work history, phone numbers, email addresses, and an 'alien registration number,' which is an identifier assigned to foreign nationals by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). These numbers can be found on green cards, or permanent resident cards, and employment authorization cards. Permanent Labor Certifications (PERM) are also available in the FLAG system. The certification, according to the Labor Department's website, 'allows an employer to hire a foreign worker to work permanently' in the US. The instructions to grant Moghaddassi data access to FLAG appeared under a heading that reads 'OIG access level,' which likely refers to the DOL's Office of Inspector General. The OIG at the DOL, according to its website, 'investigates fraud, waste, and abuse related to the department's programs, including the foreign labor certification programs.' FLAG is the application portal for these certification programs. Larry Turner, the former Inspector General at the Department of Labor, was fired by Trump in January as part of a broader purge of the position across more than a dozen agencies. Trump has since nominated Anthony D'Esposito, a former US congressman from New York, for the job. DOGE's access at the DOL also encompasses data that, while not directly immigration-related, could be used in conjunction with data that is. Collins, Moghaddassi, and Elez all have access to the DOL's Reentry Employment Opportunities (REO) program, WIRED has confirmed. This program at the DOL provides funding for people who were incarcerated and supports job training and other employment services. While the REO database isn't immigration-specific, the data from REO could be cross-referenced with other datasets to figure out the immigration status of formerly incarcerated people benefiting from the program. If DOGE were to find crossover, a source at the agency tells WIRED, this 'would fit so neatly with their messaging about immigrants being criminals and abusing government services.' (Despite claims from Trump's administration, there is no evidence that immigrants present threats to 'national security' and 'public safety' or that they abuse government services—in fact, research shows that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than people born in the US.) Moghaddassi, Elez, and Collins did not respond to requests for comment. Neither did the Department of Labor. Moghaddassi and Elez have also appeared as DOGE operatives at other federal agencies and have connections to Musk. Moghaddassi has worked at a number of Musk's companies, including X, Tesla, and Neuralink; according to previous WIRED reporting tracking DOGE operatives, he has also been linked to the Treasury Department and DHS. Elez, a 25-year-old engineer who has worked at Musk's X and SpaceX, has also appeared at the Treasury and Social Security Administration. While at the Treasury, WIRED reported, Elez had both read and write access to sensitive Treasury systems. Elez briefly resigned from DOGE after racist comments posted by an account he was linked to were discovered by The Wall Street Journal. Elez returned to DOGE after Musk and Vice President JD Vance posted in defense of him on X. Elez is also staffed at DHS, according to Politico, as part of the administration's effort to bring together data from a number of government agencies to streamline and systematize DHS enforcement and deportation. Elez, despite his initial resignation from DOGE, has seemingly been tasked with a number of unusually sensitive assignments: He is also part of the DOGE team working on a system to sell the $5 million visas that Trump calls 'gold cards.' Elez is on this team with Edward Coristine, the young DOGE operative known as 'Big Balls.' Coristine also has his hands in many agencies and recently appeared at the Labor Department, sources tell WIRED. Coristine is another key DOGE staffer planted at DHS. He has also appeared at the Office of Personnel Management, the United States Agency for International Development, the Department of Education, the General Services Administration, and the Small Business Administration. Coristine did not reply to requests for comment. 'This is an administration that is happy to go after people with legal status if it dislikes something else about them,' says Victoria Noble, a staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation. 'It's just one more source of information that allows this administration to target people who are here legally, but target them for deportation or other more advanced investigations.'
WIRED
01-04-2025
- Health
- WIRED
The CDC Has Been Gutted
Leah Feiger Makena Kelly Kate Knibbs Apr 1, 2025 11:15 AM Thousands of CDC employees who worked on things like preventing HIV and lead poisoning have been told they were subject to a reduction in force. Experts say people will die. Thousands of federal employees at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention were notified early Tuesday morning that they were subject to a reduction in force, or RIF, sources tell WIRED, shuttering programs that directly serve and inform the American public. The effect was felt across the CDC, as workers in the Division of Environmental Health Science and Practice (DEHSP), the Division of Population Health, the Division of HIV Prevention, the Division of Reproductive Health, National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health, and National Center for Injury Prevention and Control all received RIF notices today. Dozens of other programs throughout the CDC's national centers for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion; HIV, Viral Hepatitis, STD, and Tuberculosis Prevention; Environmental Health; Immunization and Respiratory Diseases; and the Global Health center were also impacted. Multiple sources in the Department of Health and Human Services, the agency that houses the CDC, say that RIF notices began going out around 5:00 am ET on Tuesday. Employees across HHS offices arrived at buildings only to discover that their badges no longer worked, sources tell WIRED. 'I regret to inform you that you are being affected by a reduction in force (RIF) action,' reads the email to affected employees. 'This RIF does not reflect directly on your service, performance, or conduct. It is being taken solely for the reasons stated in the memorandum. After you receive this notice you will be placed on administrative leave and will no longer have building access beginning Tuesday, April 1, unless directed otherwise by your leadership.' The memorandum refers to the February 11 executive order from President Donald Trump titled 'Implementing the President's 'Department of Government Efficiency' Workforce Optimization Initiative.' 'The cuts today at CDC targeted programs that address all aspects of American lives,' a source at the CDC tells WIRED. 'This will lead to worse health outcomes, greater risks to the US public, and will contribute to the decline in US life expectancy … programs that were eliminated fund positions across the country, in red and blue districts.' 'There has been no effort in allowing staff to transfer projects, programs, or responsibilities,' says one CDC staffer. These cuts will have immediate impact, experts say. At the Division for HIV Prevention, where the stated mission is 'to promote health and quality of life by preventing HIV infection and reducing HIV-related illness and death in the United States,' at least half of the employees received RIF notices. 'We're going to have patients die,' says Jade Pagkas-Bather, an infectious disease doctor at the University of Chicago who also specializes in HIV prevention. 'Unnecessary, preventable death.' Joseph Cherabie, a physician and assistant professor in the division of infectious diseases at Washington University in St. Louis, says that these cuts will have devastating consequences for HIV patients around the country, especially in rural areas: 'It will be catastrophic.' Cherabie says that states relying heavily on federal funding for public health initiatives, like Missouri, where he works, will be hit especially hard. 'We're still seeing young people coming in with new HIV diagnoses, sometimes advanced HIV,' says Cherabie. Along with six other states, Missouri has been awarded CDC funding dedicated to lowering HIV infections, which helps pay for medicine like pre-exposure prophylactics (PrEP) for at-risk patients. Cherabie says patients outside of cities heavily rely on these kinds of CDC-funded HIV programs. 'Our efforts are largely dependent on these federal grants,' he says. 'We use them to make sure that we are able to distribute HIV testing equipment. We use them to make sure that we can get information and data on how much PrEP is being distributed, how many HIV diagnoses we have, how many HIV tests we're giving out. If we lose that, then we're moving around in the dark.' The CDC's DEHSP division includes the Asthma and Air Quality Branch, the Climate and Health Activity, the Emerging Environmental Hazards and Health Effects Branch, the Environmental Public Health Tracking Branch, the Lead Poisoning Prevention and Surveillance Branch, and the Water, Food, and Environmental Health Services Branch. All of these branches provide key services, and hundreds of employees received RIFs. Other divisions within DEHSP include, for example, the CDC's Vessel Sanitation Program, which helps the cruise industry prevent public health issues, inspects cruises, and provides information on outbreaks. It's unclear if the program's work involving cruise inspections, or the lists of outbreaks on cruises, will continue. Similarly, the Lead Poisoning branch that works to eliminate childhood lead poisoning has also been gutted by RIFs. It's unclear how much of its work will be able to continue. The CDC cuts are part of the Trump administration's plans to remove more than 10,000 Health and Human Services employees. Those sweeping reductions were 'orchestrated' by Brad Smith, a member of Elon Musk's so-called Department of Government Efficiency, according to Politico. The agency-wide cuts were originally expected to fall on Friday. In a press release last Thursday, HHS secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. announced that this restructuring, paired with early retirements and deferred resignations, would reduce the agency workforce from 82,000 to 62,000 full-time employees. 'Over time, bureaucracies like HHS become wasteful and inefficient even when most of their staff are dedicated and competent civil servants,' Kennedy said in a statement announcing the restructuring last week. 'This overhaul will be a win-win for taxpayers and for those that HHS serves. That's the entire American public, because our goal is to Make America Healthy Again.' Anu Hazra, another infectious disease specialist at the University of Chicago who also works as a physician at the nonprofit medical clinic Howard Brown Health, says that cuts to CDC funding will severely curb the type of HIV prevention and testing he does, and potentially outright eliminate some of the services offered. 'It's the only way that the work gets done,' he says; he does not believe that other institutions will be able to compensate for the loss of federal funding. 'The idea that you can just privatize public health, I don't think it's a realistic solution.' Hazra says that funding cuts will disproportionately impact people like his patients on the South Side of Chicago, who come from socioeconomically disadvantaged Black communities that 'either don't have access or have really reduced access' to medical services including HIV prevention and treatment. Several doctors WIRED spoke to were unnerved because President Donald Trump's first administration had championed federal HIV prevention funding initiatives, which aimed to essentially end new HIV infections in the US by 2030, so they did not anticipate this radical change. 'This work that we're doing was thanks to him,' Hazra says. 'This is not just something that impacts people in the ivory tower. This is not just something that impacts people who are physicians, or scientists, or academics,' says Pagkas-Bather. 'This is coming for you.' Additional reporting by Emily Mullin.
WIRED
12-03-2025
- Politics
- WIRED
How a Government Shutdown Would Help Elon Musk
On this special episode of Uncanny Valley , we unpack Elon Musk's desire for a government shutdown that could become permanent. Plus: An update on measles misinformation in the US. A view of the U.S. Capitol Building in Washington, DC. Photo-Illustration: WIRED Staff; Photograph:If you buy something using links in our stories, we may earn a commission. This helps support our journalism. Learn more. Please also consider subscribing to WIRED WIRED Senior Editor Leah Feiger joins Global Editorial Director Katie Drummond to explain why Elon Musk might actually want a government shutdown. Plus, WIRED's Emily Mullin joins for an update on misinformation surrounding the latest measles outbreaks in the United States. Articles mentioned in this episode: Elon Musk Has Wanted the Government Shutdown by Jake Lahut, Leah Feiger, and Vittoria Elliott This Is How Measles Kills by Emily Mullin The Worst 7 Years in Boeing's History—and the Man Who Won't Stop Fighting for Answers by Lauren Smiley You can follow Katie Drummond on Bluesky at @katie-drummond, Leah Feiger on Bluesky at @leahfeiger, and Emily Mullin on Bluesky at @emilymullin. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Katie Drummond: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley . I'm WIRED's Global Editorial Director Katie Drummond. Today on the show, why Elon Musk wants the government shutdown, and the state of measles in the United States. I'm joined today by WIRED's Senior Editor Leah Feiger. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley , Leah. Leah Feiger: Thank you so much for having me. Love to be back. Katie Drummond: Now, Leah, you are back for a very good reason, which is that earlier today you and your team broke a fascinating and a very consequential story about the looming government shutdown, and why Elon Musk has actually wanted this shutdown to happen. Give us the latest. Walk us through this reporting. Leah Feiger: There is a possible government shutdown that could occur as soon as Friday. Basically, Republicans right now in Congress are trying to force through a continuing resolution, a CR, that would extend government funding. It wouldn't extend it forever, it would extend it to September. But buying Congress and Republicans and Trump a little bit more time. Trump has been giving some very full-throated encouragement to his party, I should say, to vote for this CR and to avoid a shutdown. Our reporting ran in direct contrast to that. That Trump's arguably chief lieutenant right now and collaborator Elon Musk has actually been expressing a pretty serious desire for a government shutdown, even as Trump has been saying that he does not want one. Not only does Musk want a government shutdown, an aim that obviously, as I just said, runs totally contrary to Trump, but it's partially because it would make it a lot easier to eliminate the jobs of hundreds of thousands of federal workers. Essentially, achieving what would be a permanent shutdown. Katie Drummond: Explain what you actually mean by that. I guess walk us through what happens in the event of a government shutdown. These threats or the notion of a looming government shutdown, I feel like we hear about that all the time. I remember last year, hearing about it several times, that we're on the verge of a government shutdown. It's always averted. But what happens in the event that the US government shuts down? And why does that actually make it easier for Elon Musk, or DOGE, or anybody else who wants to lay off hundreds of thousands of federal workers, why does that make it easier for them to actually do that? Leah Feiger: Absolutely. Let me know if you have any questions here. Katie Drummond: Oh, I will. Leah Feiger: Because so much of this is really thorny. But for the easy stuff that we are very confident about, a government shutdown is basically many federal government agencies and programs will essentially be put on ice. Employees get classified into essential or non-essential. Essential services usually include folks in Defense. FBI for example, they will still be working. But scientists, and workers in the SEC, and National Park Services. Pretty much most government functions that you, Katie, are sitting here thinking about- Katie Drummond: Right. Leah Feiger: ... those are going to be on ice. Every single agency has its own shutdown plan. Even the White House gets hit. At least, it has in the past shutdowns. In 2018-2019 shutdown during Trump's first term, something like 60% of staffers in the Executive Office of the President were actually furloughed. Katie Drummond: Wow. Leah Feiger: But yeah, don't worry. It's in the constitution that the president gets paid regardless. Just in case you were concerned. Katie Drummond: All of these federal workers who are furloughed would be unpaid? Leah Feiger: It depends on the kind of worker, but a lot of them won't be paid until after the shutdown would end. Katie Drummond: Got it. Leah Feiger: It's complicated. Obviously, we have gone through many government shutdowns before, but what you started getting at is this is incredibly different because on Elon Musk. Katie Drummond: Right. Leah Feiger: Because of DOGE, and because they have been responsible for the elimination of positions for tens of thousands of government workers already. Him talking about removing these non-essential workers before, many who are doing pretty critical tasks. If you are concerned about listeria in your deli meat, as I keep getting reminded by Mom, shout-out to Mom, this is a real thing. Those folks won't be working. The way that this would happen is that once federal employees have been furloughed for more than 30 days ... This would mean that if a government shutdown, A, happened, and B, this shutdown lasted longer than 30 days, than that furlough actually becomes subject to a RIF, a reduction in force. In our article that came out today, we talked with Nick Bednar, professor at the University of Minnesota School of Law, who is an absolute expert on this and was really helpful in walking through all this. This could be challenged, but this does mean that after 30 days, these furloughed government employees are automatically kicked into RIF procedures. Between that, and between so many serious functions of the government that'll just not be happening in a shutdown, there's a lot of leeway for Musk and his team to get rid of a lot of people. Katie Drummond: By RIF, we're talking about reduction in force essentially. Leah Feiger: Yes, yes. Katie Drummond: That's a corporate term used to describe a layoff essentially. Leah Feiger: Yeah. Katie Drummond: Leah, it may be too premature to speculate beyond that, and obviously we're getting into if this happens, and then if that happens, and then if that happens. But once we go into that post-30 day scenario, where federal workers who are furloughed are then subject to RIF procedures, what does that actually mean? Do these people have jobs again when the government reopens? Leah Feiger: Well, that's what's a little bit tricky right now and I want to really stress is that all of the experts that we're talking to are just like, "We haven't seen this before." There's actually a lot of conflicting guidance, in a way. We know that this 30 day marker exists, and we know that this could happen if we hit the 30-day marker. It has not happened before, but because of the political situation as it is right now and the way that Musk has very, very candidly talked about reducing the federal government workforce, a lot of experts are really concerned that that's the path that we're going to go down. Katie Drummond: Wow. That is stunning as a potential scenario. Leah Feiger: Yeah. I want to be clear, again, this is hundreds of thousands of people. Katie Drummond: Right. Leah Feiger: I can't really imagine what House and Senate Democrats are thinking right now. Katie Drummond: Let's back up for a second. We know that Elon Musk, from all of our reporting, has espoused this idea that maybe a government shutdown is a good idea, maybe we should go ahead and do this. What happens now? We're talking on Tuesday, March 11th. We're up against a deadline of Friday, March 14th. What should people be watching for over the next three days? Leah Feiger: A couple of key things. House Republicans are going to vote today, so we're going to find out if they have passed the CR, and if it goes from the House to the Senate. It's very possible that it will. It's also possible that it won't. There are Republicans out there that are defying Trump's request here and Johnson's request here. This quote from Thomas Massey, a Republican Congressman, continues to kill me. He tweeted this over the weekend and I need to read this out loud because I honestly think about it maybe every 30 minutes. "Unless I get a lobotomy Monday that causes me to forget what I've witnessed the past 12 years, I'll be a no on the CR this week." Katie Drummond: Wow. Leah Feiger: Yeah! Trump is going after him pretty hard right now. He's getting a lot of pressure from colleagues in the House. That's the House stuff. We're going to see what happens. Is he going to get convinced? Then once we head to the Senate, we need 60 votes. If it makes it to the Senate, Democrats, if they hold out, will be blamed for holding out. Katie Drummond: Got it. Leah Feiger: That's already the language that is being discussed. Which, in my opinion, Republicans control the White House, they control the House, and they control the Senate, so I don't know if that's totally fair. But that is what's percolating right now. Democrats, for the most part, have been very, very staunch about not supporting this CR. There's a lot in there that they don't agree with. And maybe most importantly, they want more oversight for Musk and DOGE. In order to just fully, full-heartedly support a CR like this, a lot of them have implied feels like a little bit of a given. Katie Drummond: There is this very bizarre potential scenario, potential scenario on the horizon. Just to be clear, this is speculative. That Democrats hold out on voting for this CR because they object to so much of what's in it, because they want more oversight of Musk and DOGE, and in so doing, they essentially give Elon Musk exactly what he has been asking for. Leah Feiger: Yeah. Yes. Katie Drummond: Leah, always a good time having you on. Thank you so much for joining me on Uncanny Valley today. Leah Feiger: Thank you so much for having me, Katie. Katie Drummond: All right, we're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll hear from WIRED's Emily Mullin about the measles. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley . I'm joined now by WIRED's Emily Mullin. Emily, welcome to Uncanny Valley . Emily Mullin: Thanks for having me, Katie. Katie Drummond: Emily, there's been a lot happening in this country this year. Among other things though, and I think important for us to highlight here and on WIRED as you've been doing with your reporting, are outbreaks of measles. Along with those outbreaks, we are seeing a lot of misinformation, bad health advice, bad recommendations circulating about the illness. Can you start by just level set with all of us, give us the deal, what is going on with measles in the United States right now? Emily Mullin: Right. There's a growing measles outbreak along the Texas-New Mexico border that has so far resulted in more than 250 cases and two deaths. One of them in a child, and the other in an adult. Both were unvaccinated. A few dozen people in Texas and one person in New Mexico have been hospitalized. Just for comparison, last year, in 2024, 285 people in the US came down with measles and that was for the whole year. Katie Drummond: Wow. Emily Mullin: 40% of those required hospitalization. In Texas, most of those cases are in Gaines County, where 222 people have come down with the virus. The outbreak has now spread to a neighboring county in New Mexico, where there are 33 cases. But those numbers could likely be higher once this podcast airs. The vast majority of those cases, again, are in unvaccinated individuals. Katie Drummond: You published a story on earlier today, it's a great piece with a terrifying headline, This Is How Measles Kills. Tell us a little bit about this virus and how it effects the human body. Emily Mullin: Yeah. Well, we felt the need to write this story because we're seeing a lot of misinformation on social media coming from conservative and anti-vaccine accounts that are really downplaying the severity of the virus and promoting false claims, such as the child in Texas died of other causes. We wanted to be very clear in this story about the dangers of measles and this is not just a rash. Everybody thinks of the characteristic rash that comes along with measles, and that actually usually comes after the first signs, which is usually a fever, runny nose, that kind of thing. It can often resemble the flu. One of the reasons why measles is so dangerous is that it can induce something called immune amnesia. The measles virus kills these very important cells in the body that remember prior infections, they help fight future infections. Without these cells, it can really leave people vulnerable to other infections for several weeks and months to come. Two of the very severe complications of measles are pneumonia and encephalitis, which is a swelling of the brain. Both of those conditions can both lead to death. Katie Drummond: Terrifying. Speaking of terrifying, you talked a little bit about the misinformation, the bad, dangerous health advice circulating out there. This feels like the right moment to bring up Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Secretary of Health and Human Services for the United States government, is one of the most high-profile proponents of some of that misinformation. As you reported, he has described cod liver oil as showing, quote, "Very, very good results in measles patients," among other statements he's made. He's also been very noncommittal in terms of emphasizing the importance of vaccination to prevent measles outbreaks like exactly the one that we are seeing right now in Texas. Talk to us a little bit more about RFK Jr. and how he has contributed to this massive surge in misinformation around measles. Emily Mullin: Yeah. Kennedy, in Trump's first cabinet meeting, when asked by a reporter about the measles outbreak, he said that measles outbreaks in the US are not that unusual. Which is true, but this outbreak in particular is unusual because we have seen these two deaths. I should point out the child in Texas who died was the first that we've seen in 10 years. Katie Drummond: Wow. Emily Mullin: The first death from measles we've seen in 10 years. The Health Department in Texas confirmed that this child had no underlying conditions. We don't know what the complications were. But Kennedy wrote an op-ed for Fox News in which he encouraged parents to talk to their pediatricians about the MMR vaccine and said that this is a personal choice. But he didn't really come out and encourage vaccination. I think a lot of health experts were disappointed in that op-ed because it was really an opportunity for reach an audience that could be receptive to this message at a time when we are seeing this big measles outbreak. And yes, he's also made references to cod liver oil. That is because cod liver oil is high in vitamin A. Vitamin A is often given to children who are hospitalized with measles because there's some research showing that the measles virus can deplete levels of vitamin A in the body. It is recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics and the World Health Organization to give to children who are sick with measles. But there's really no research around cod liver oil, and also cod liver oil supplements depending on the type of supplement or the brand of supplement, can actually have more vitamin A in it than is recommended for the daily dose. If you give a child too much of vitamin A or cod liver oil, they can get really sick. This is something that health experts, pediatricians are really not recommending that people give to their children right now for measles. It does not prevent measles in any way. It certainly cannot cure measles. It has no antiviral properties. There is no antiviral treatment available for measles. The only effective way to prevent measles is the measles, mumps, and rubella, or MMR vaccine. Katie Drummond: Got it. Wow. We're in the midst of this outbreak that we talked about at the top. What happens now? Once a measles outbreak is out there, is spreading among a community, how do you contain something like that? What next steps would be necessary for the United States to actually get this outbreak under control? Emily Mullin: Yeah. Well, this is a great question. We have seen measles outbreaks before. You might remember that there was a large outbreak of measles back in 2019 that was concentrated in the Orthodox Jewish communities in New York. It really took this strategic boots on the ground effort of going into the community, combating misinformation, providing culturally sensitive information about the benefits of the MMR vaccine to get rates up there. Because again, there's no effective treatment for measles. This takes isolation, vaccination because to be clear, we're seeing these measles happening because of declining vaccination rates nationwide. People are not trusting of vaccines right now. For measles, the vaccination rate in a community needs to be very high, 95%, to prevent outbreaks because it is so contagious. In Gaines County, Texas, which has the majority of cases right now, the kindergarten measles vaccination rate is 82%. Katie Drummond: Wow. Emily Mullin: That is why we're seeing such a heavy concentration of cases there. But in New Mexico, in Lee County where most of the New Mexico cases are happening, measles vaccination rates are quite higher, around 94%. But again, this is a very contagious virus. We really need those rates up to around 95%. That's what epidemiologists say is really needed for protection a community. Katie Drummond: Just to underscore this one last time. The MMR vaccine, how effective is that vaccine at preventing measles in a given person? Emily Mullin: One dose of the vaccine is 93% effective against measles, and two doses is 97% effective. That first dose is recommended for children usually around ages 12 to 15 months. Then that second dose is typically given when a child is between four and six-years-old. Katie Drummond: Got it. We're also, again, just talking about the most vulnerable people in a community, babies, young children, in terms of risk for contracting measles. Certainly seems like vaccines are a better option than cod liver oil, if I may say so. We're going to take a short break. Thank you, Emily. When we come back, what you need to read on WIRED today. Welcome back to Uncanny Valle y. I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's global editorial director. I'm joined by WIRED's Emily Mullin. Now, Emily, before I let you go, I actually want to pitch you and our listeners on a story that everybody should read on today, other than the excellent stories we mentioned in this episode. That is a feature that we published today by WIRED Contributor Lauren Smiley. Lauren is an incredible journalist, an incredible narrative writer. She did a deep-dive into Boeing. If you are not already terrified of air travel given everything going on with the FAA right now and everything that has gone on with Boeing in the last several years, this story won't make you feel better. I say that as someone who takes a lot of Xanax before I get on a flight. This story will make you feel more nervous about the safety of air travel. But it is this riveting narrative told through the eyes of a man who actually worked at Boeing for many years, had a lot of concerns about safety within Boeing manufacturing facilities, safety of the aircrafts, and frequently sounded the alarm inside the company. Until he ultimately left the company, and only then started to see terrible plane crashes, serious incidents with Boeing aircrafts that he had been in part responsible for actually manufacturing and creating. It's all about his journey as a whistleblower, and how he has since leaving Boeing and becoming a whistleblower, he has actually become this focal point for the families of people who lost their lives in Boeing plane crashes. He has become a focal point for other whistleblowers who have come forward with damaging information about what's going on inside the company. It really is the story of one man, his name is Ed Pierson, and his mission that continues through to today to reveal what he describes as serious missteps and misdeeds on the part of Boeing that affect all of our safety when we get into an aircraft. It's an incredible story. Again, it will not make you feel good, but it is a very, very good read. I strongly recommend everybody giving it a look. Emily, I think you actually said that you had read this story earlier today, so I suspect you agree with me. Emily Mullin: Yes. I didn't want to fly before reading this story, and I don't want to fly now. Katie Drummond: That is totally fair, I could not agree more. But it's one of those stories that you are better off and more well-informed, and have a richer picture of Boeing and all of the people surrounding it, including this whistleblower, after you read it. Again, it's not going to make you feel great, but it's an important piece of journalism. Much credit to Lauren for all of the digging and reporting that she did to bring this story to life for WIRED. Emily, thank you so much for joining me today. Emily Mullin: Thanks for having me. Katie Drummond: All right, that's our show for today. We will link to all the stories we talked about today in the show notes. Make sure to check out Thursday's episode of Uncanny Valley , where we look at the state and future of self-driving cars. If you like what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with any of us for questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@ This episode was edited by Kyana Moghadam. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Jake Lummus is our studio engineer. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Conde Nast's head of global audio is Chris Bannon. I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's global editorial director. Goodbye.
WIRED
05-03-2025
- Business
- WIRED
Here's a Map of the For-Sale Government Properties the GSA Pulled From Its Website
Dhruv Mehrotra Leah Feiger Tim Marchman Mar 5, 2025 5:15 PM The General Services Administration plans to sell hundreds of government buildings, including FBI headquarters. Use our interactive tools to see where they are—and the Congressional districts they're in. On Tuesday, the General Services Administration (GSA) published a list of more than 400 federal buildings and properties to be sold, including the FBI headquarters, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the Department of Justice, and other key federal facilities. Hours later, 123 buildings, including high-profile sites like the J. Edgar Hoover Building and Veterans Administration buildings in Washington, DC, were removed from the list. By Wednesday, the entire list had disappeared from the GSA website. WIRED has created a map and a searchable table of the government properties that were for sale and briefly listed, which also includes corresponding political representatives for each location. WIRED cross-referenced two datasets to create the map: the list of 'non-core' properties originally published—and then removed—by the GSA, and the Inventory of Owned and Leased Properties (IOLP). The GSA defines non-core properties as buildings and facilities that are 'not core to government operations,' and in a press release about the list, argued that sales would provide "savings to the American taxpayer." The IOLP, a publicly accessible database, offers detailed information on GSA-owned and leased properties across the United States, Puerto Rico, Guam, and American Samoa. Among those originally denoted as for sale are historically significant properties like Chicago's Ludwig Mies van der Rohe-designed John C. Kluczynski Federal Building, and the Custom House, an Art Deco building taking up a city block in Philadelphia's Old City. Less prominent but still notable buildings include the Martinsburg Computing Center in Kearneysville, West Virginia, which houses what the IRS describes as its 'individual and corporate tax administration master file data base,' and the Central Heating Plant in Washington, DC, which provides heated and chilled water to government buildings, museums, and national monuments. (The GSA has since claimed that not all buildings are for sale, but the agency has repeatedly changed its tune throughout different internal documents and communications to staffers.) The GSA, an independent government agency, manages government IT and a significant portion of the federal real estate portfolio. In recent weeks, the agency has been decimated by forced resignations and reductions in forces, including the elimination of 18F, a GSA unit focused on government efficiency. GSA's Public Buildings Service (PBS) is reportedly planning to cut 63 percent of its workforce, about 3600 people in total. Elon Musk's associates are staffed throughout GSA, including Technology Transformation Services director Thomas Shedd, a former Tesla engineer, and X staffer Nicole Hollander. A number of young DOGE technologists also have access to the agency. WIRED previously reported in February that employees at the GSA were told to sell off more than 500 federal buildings, including properties that house government agencies and the offices of US senators. The list of these buildings divided the properties into 'core' and 'non-core' assets, and designated the 'non-core' assets as to be sold. A note on the original list states that the agency's intention is eventually to reduce the 'size of the owned real estate footprint by 50 percent and the number of buildings by 70 percent. Reductions will be focused on the non-core general office space of the portfolio which can be replaced as needed in the private leased market. Moving forward, all non-core buildings will be disposed of and their tenants will be transitioned into leases.' GSA has not said why it published and then subsequently removed the list. 'Some have suggested [the list was taken down] due to the negative press,' says a source at GSA, who, along with others mentioned in this story, WIRED is granting anonymity because they are not authorized to talk to the press. 'There has been no national strategy on how GSA is supposed to engage customer agencies on their occupancy agreements in these buildings.' 'Our portfolio [team] haven't heard anything from our national office on what's actually going on,' another source says. Other sources have described a small group at GSA, walled off from other employees, making decisions in tandem with DOGE. 'The thing you need to realize is the administrator [of GSA] and PBS commissioner are making these decisions in a vacuum,' says a source, referring to Michael Peters, the recently appointed PBS commissioner, and Stephen Ehikian, the acting GSA administrator. 'The regional staff, senior regional leadership, and most GSA national office staff, don't get to talk to the administrator or PBS commissioner. They have a floor locked off at GSA headquarters with elevator access restricted. They're in there with DOGE reps … I know it sounds like a bad James Bond movie or I'm making it up, but they literally have locked off a floor.' Peters and Ehikian did not immediately respond to requests for comment. The link to the list published to the GSA website has been replaced by a page that says 'coming soon.' 'We are identifying buildings and facilities that are not core to government operations, or non-core properties, for disposal,' the page states. 'Selling ensures that taxpayer dollars are no longer spent on vacant or underutilized federal spaces. Disposing of these assets helps eliminate costly maintenance and allows us to reinvest in high-quality work environments that support agency missions.' In a Wednesday press statement, GSA did not clarify why the list was deleted. 'To be clear, just because an asset is on the list doesn't mean it's immediately for sale,' the statement reads. 'However, we will consider compelling offers (in accordance with applicable laws and regulations) and do what's best for the needs of the federal government and taxpayer.' The agency added, 'We anticipate the list will be republished in the near future after we evaluate this initial input and determine how we can make it easier for stakeholders to understand the nuances of the assets listed. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), a federal agency within the Department of Health and Human Services, emailed employees about the list of buildings and noted that a number of its buildings were identified as 'non-core' assets. 'CMS was not aware this was happening, and we didn't submit or approve any of our current office locations being on this list,' the email states. 'We are in active discussions with HHS to ensure we have the facilities we need to fully return to the office in-person and continue performing our critical mission.' Sources tell WIRED that the posting of the list yesterday has resulted in chaos at GSA. 'There's a reason we have processes and they just don't follow them,' one source says. 'Amateur hour,' says another source. Zoë Schiffer and Vittoria Elliott contributed reporting.
WIRED
13-02-2025
- Politics
- WIRED
How We're Keeping Tabs on DOGE
By Katie Drummond and Leah Feiger Feb 13, 2025 12:21 PM On this special episode of Uncanny Valley , WIRED's politics editor and global editorial director catch us up on Elon Musk's involvement in the Trump Administration. Photo-Illustration: WIRED Staff; Photograph:Wired Politics Senior Editor Leah Feiger joins Global Editorial Director Katie Drummond to talk about the latest at DOGE and the inexperienced engineers holding key positions at the so-called Department of Government Efficiency. They discuss how WIRED's been preparing for this moment since the first assassination attempt on Trump last summer, and how, despite the unprecedented chaos of this moment, the courts will catch up. You can follow Katie Drummond on Bluesky at @ and Leah Feiger on Bluesky at @ Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Katie Drummond: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley. I'm WIRED's Global editorial Director, Katie Drummond. We are just four weeks, four weeks, into the Trump administration here in the United States, but there has been so much news, some of which we've been breaking here at WIRED, so we wanted to get into that a little bit today on Uncanny Valley. I'm joined by our senior editor, Leah Feiger, who runs our politics coverage. Hi, Leah. Leah Feiger: Hey, Katie. Thanks for having me. Katie Drummond: Pretty special couple of weeks. Leah Feiger: Oh, it's been a fun one. Just so great. Katie Drummond: The team has been working relentlessly, very, very hard. I can personally attest to seeing some very late night messages circulating among our staff. Leah Feiger: Yeah, sorry about that. Katie Drummond: No problem. All of the snacks that I had in my office have been eaten. I had to go buy more. That should give you a bit of a sense of what's been happening at WIRED. Leah, so much of our coverage has really centered on DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency, spearheaded by, of course, Elon Musk, with the endorsement of President Trump. Catch us up just for starters on this week at DOGE. What's the latest? Because there's so much happening, it's really hard to keep up and keep track. Leah Feiger: There's a ton happening right now. Honestly, the last two weeks have felt like two years, just in terms of the news cycle. In the last 48 hours alone, President Trump put out his executive order to make pretty clear that DOGE continued to have his full support and would be able to continue commencing with large scale workforce cuts across the board. Late last night, Makena Kelly, our senior politics reporter, reported that dozens of workers at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the CFPB, were fired in an after hours blitz. These things are happening really, really fast. Those employees, for example, the CFPB, they were notified with an email that addressed them as parentheses, employee first name dot employee last name, job title, division. This is not personal. This is just cutting, cutting, cutting. Katie Drummond: This is slash and burn. Leah Feiger: Yeah. Katie Drummond: This is straight out of the Musk playbook that we've seen at other companies. Leah Feiger: A hundred percent. Katie Drummond: Twitter being a prime and very recent example. That also brings to mind, to me, one of the stories that we just published, that Makena just published this morning, which was looking at sort of who is being installed in senior level roles across these agencies that might actually give Musk and DOGE more power than they already have. Can you talk a little bit about that? Leah Feiger: Absolutely. She found that former Palantir and Elon Musk associates are taking over key government IT roles. These are called Chief Information Officers. If you haven't heard of them before, that's totally fine, but just know that they're incredibly important. They manage an agency's information technology, oversee sensitive databases, including classified ones. These are really important people that now have folks aligned with Musk or with Palantir, which as we know is tied to Peter Thiel, another Musk ally. Katie Drummond: Right. The concern among experts that Makena spoke to is that if individuals in these CIO roles are aligned with Musk, aligned with the efforts of DOGE, that that could actually make it easier for DOGE workers to gain access to really sensitive material, sensitive information. Leah Feiger: Sensitive systems. Katie Drummond: Sensitive systems. Leah Feiger: Exactly. Katie Drummond: Within these federal agencies. Leah Feiger: Absolutely. Katie Drummond: Very concerning. Leah Feiger: Yeah. Katie Drummond: Now, let's back up a little bit, because we're talking about what DOGE is doing in the last 24 hours. It sort of feels like there are several news cycles happening around DOGE every 24 hours. We just sort of gave you the last day or so, but let's back way up and talk about DOGE, how it was created, and what we sort of discovered earlier on in our reporting about this organization, about this group. Sort of who are these people and how did they end up in all of these federal agencies? Leah Feiger: Absolutely, and you're going to have to help me fill in all of these stories, too. Katie Drummond: I would be happy to. Leah Feiger: Because you have been in the thick of it with us, but this Department of Government Efficiency, we are constantly putting the word so-called right in front of it with all of our reporting, because this isn't an actual department. That requires Congress. That requires a whole lot more than Trump or Musk going out and declaring on X that they now have a department. However, this so-called department is now within the executive office of the president. They were quite shrewd with its creation. They actually took over the USDS, the US Digital Service, which has led to some very interesting aftershocks here. Makena also reported last week that there has now been a firewall barrier between legacy USDS employees and new DOGE employees. When WIRED first started reporting on this, I think one of the reasons that we've really managed to be on top of this story is that we were able to see the forest amongst the trees, that we had to take them seriously and had to figure out where they would be going first and what that would look like. Katie Drummond: I think it's important to mention here, too, that last year when DOGE first sort of surfaced or was announced by candidate Trump, now President Trump, and Musk, the idea that was conveyed to the public was that this would be sort of an external consultancy, right? Leah Feiger: Right. Katie Drummond: That Musk and DOGE, whomever made up that group, would be consulting with Trump and with the federal government around potential cuts, potential changes. Leah Feiger: Right. Katie Drummond: What we're talking about now is essentially a co-opting, if I may use that term, of an existing agency, sidelining its employees in order to sort of run DOGE under somewhat official pretenses Leah Feiger: And then taking on more power than that original agency ever had. Katie Drummond: Exactly. Leah Feiger: But using that agency's access to other agencies. Katie Drummond: Now, we've learned a lot, and WIRED has broken a lot of this news, but so have other news organizations, about who actually is a participant in DOGE. Who are these people? Initially, about a week and a half ago, Tori Elliott, one of our fabulous politics reporters, another really dogged WIRED journalist, broke a story identifying six of these individuals. They are young men aged sort of 19 to 24. We named them. We shared any details we were able to glean about their backgrounds and about what they are doing inside of DOGE and across federal agencies. A few things really stood out to me from that reporting. One was that none of these young men have really any government experience at all. Leah Feiger: Oh God, no. No. Katie Drummond: The second being that all of them are somehow tied to either Elon Musk or Peter Thiel, who is of course a key Musk ally. Leah Feiger: These very young men have found themselves with the keys to so many different government agencies right now. We have tracked them through their work at USAID, at the Office of Personnel Management, OPM, at the General Services Administration, and TTS within that. They are all over the place right now, the Department of Education. There are also a lot of grown-ups in the room, too. Don't want to forget those. At the General Services Administration, we have Nicole Hollander, a former Twitter staffer, married to Steve Davis, who's very, very involved in DOGE everything right now. The two of them actually slept at the Twitter offices during Musk's takeover a couple of years ago. These are people who aren't just affiliated but have intimate knowledge as to how Musk operates. Katie Drummond: Right. Leah Feiger: And how he could possibly continue planning to make these cuts and get DOGE everywhere he wants it to be. Katie Drummond: Not that I can sort of expect that you would be inside the psyche of one of these young men who raised a hand to participate in DOGE, but what do we know about how these people were recruited? What would be the incentive for them? What would inspire someone to raise a hand and say, "Yes, I want to slash and burn my way through the federal government"? Leah Feiger: Yeah, absolutely. Vittoria Elliott and Tim Marchman our director of politics, security, and science, reported over the weekend about all of this recruitment and how some of this recruitment actually went down, which included Discord chats and alumni groups for Palantir interns and the like. It's really well planned. These were people that already bought in, at least to a certain extent. Katie Drummond: Sure. Leah Feiger: And are finding themselves with the keys to the kingdom. Getting into the psyche is obviously so hard here, but I think something that I just want to make so, so clear is the US is so incredibly divided right now. Even if you're not consuming news or on social platforms that are celebrating Musk, perhaps you're talking to your friends right now who are all like, "I can't believe he's doing this." There are so many people out there obsessed with what's happening, obsessed with him, lionize him. He is an idol to so many. Katie Drummond: Right, right. Particularly you would imagine young men of a certain background and a certain sort of professional set. Leah Feiger: Absolutely. Katie Drummond: Technologists, people who work in the Valley. I think one thing that stood out to me too from that story about the recruiting tactics is in some instances these were former interns or former employees at companies like Palantir dipping back into their networks to ask people to raise a hand. This isn't exactly Elon Musk going out and hand selecting the best and brightest from his companies. Leah Feiger: No. Katie Drummond: This is sort of a spray and pray approach across several online communities where alumni of a handful of companies tend to congregate and tend to spend time. Leah Feiger: That's already led to a lot of controversy for them. Is this the moment where I say big balls in front of my boss on a podcast? Katie Drummond: Let's say big balls, Leah. Tell us a little bit. This is one particular individual, Edward Coristine, who has attracted I think more scrutiny than many of his peers within DOGE because his background is colorful, to say the least. Leah Feiger: His background is so colorful. This is a 19-year-old DOGE staffer who experts have told WIRED would probably not have passed a background check, typically required of all these sensitive US government systems that he now has access to. This staffer, Edward Coristine, goes by Big Balls online. He also owned LLC and worked at a startup that hired convicted hackers. Again, he's 19, so he's been busy. I was not doing nearly this much at age 19. That's who's in our government right now. Also, another one I just want to throw in that's drawn up a lot of controversy that WIRED also identified, Marko Elez. Katie Drummond: Marko. Leah Feiger: We got to talk about Marco. We figured out that Marko Elez, as part of DOGE, was given read and write access to really sensitive treasury payment systems. After our reporting, The Wall Street Journal was able to confirm that Elez had actually ended up resigning, according to the White House, due to a flurry of racist social media posts that were discovered that he had links to. We're talking about the big ball's controversy. We're talking about Elez. It's not that these people are getting found out and then running and hiding away. To a certain extent, right? Elez resigned, but as Elez resigns, and as that reporting comes out, Elon Musk, JD Vance, people from a lot of different corners of the Republican GOP spectrum, are all going online and attaching their names to this, which is so wild, calling for these people to be brought back, saying that these mistakes of childhood shouldn't be impactful. These mistakes were made several months ago. I am not sure what our timeline is here for this. Katie Drummond: Speaking of these young men and their online defenders, WIRED published that story naming six of them and sharing what we had learned about the access that they had and their backgrounds. Now, Leah, we got a lot of flack for that. We were not without criticism over that decision, which ultimately I own. It is a decision that we stand behind, but we're going to take a quick break and then let's talk about that. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's global editorial director, and we are here talking about the latest with DOGE. Now, Leah, let's get back to that decision that we made, that WIRED made to name six of these young men working at Musk's behest for DOGE within the federal government. What informed that decision to actually name names in the story? Leah Feiger: It's a decision that we didn't take lightly. These are young people who have been working for DOGE for a limited period of time, who have been in Elon Musk's orbit by virtue of their age for a limited period of time. Ultimately, it's actually a really simple answer, and that's that they're working in the government right now, and government employees need to be public to the American people. Katie Drummond: I could not agree more. It's a simple answer and it's a clear answer, and absolutely it was not a decision that we made lightly. We've been making a lot of decisions, not just going back the last few weeks, but actually the last many, many months. I remember in July of 2024 Donald Trump was shot in the ear. Obviously a massive story, a massive news event, and photos were released of him raising his fist. Leah Feiger: Saying, "Fight, fight, fight." Katie Drummond: Fight, fight. A really iconic moment. I remember sitting there and thinking, "Okay, he is going to win this election. He is going to be the president." Leah Feiger: Oh, yeah. Katie Drummond: Obviously a lot transpired after that with Kamala Harris entering the race, and so on and so forth, but that really felt like a transformational moment for our newsroom in how we were thinking about the election. I remember talking to the newsroom the Monday after that happened, it was over a weekend, and saying, "We need to start getting ready for what this looks like for us across everything that we cover." Tell us about how you and your team and the newsroom from that moment on sort of started to get ready to cover this moment that we are now in. Leah Feiger: Well, to give you a little bit more credit first, I have a distinct memory, and not to reveal any private conversations, but I have a distinct memory after that weekend of talking with you and some of the other folks on the team. We were talking about the fact that Elon Musk had endorsed Trump and that was ... he'd been gearing up to that for many months, but this was his first big one. This was official. You said, "It's different now," and you were right. We have continued to cover it through that lens. The addition of Musk to all of this was not like anything that anyone could have predicted. Our strategy ended up having to cover Musk fully almost as this political entity. Katie Drummond: Right. Leah Feiger: With his relationship to Trump, but also his relationship to the campaign. I remember we broke a lot of news in the lead up to the campaign about Elon Musk's America Pack and the really ridiculous things happening there where he was outsourcing to campaign staffers who ended up getting shoved into U-Haul vans and driven around and given insane quotas and not paid. There was mess from the beginning, and his hands were in all of it. Katie Drummond: And his money too. Leah Feiger: And his money too. Katie Drummond: To the tune of I think $278 million in campaign contributions. Leah Feiger: And he's recouped all of that, and then some. Katie Drummond: Absolutely. This has been very good for Musk-owned entities. Leah Feiger: Very, very good. When we're thinking about how our coverage changed and became informed, it was taking him very seriously. I think that the mistake that ... How many journalists have relitigated the mistake of covering Trump from his first term in office, which was taking everything that he said at face value. Katie Drummond: Right. Leah Feiger: I'm going to deport every single person that I do not like, whatever. No, there's parts of that that are true and parts of that are not. Figuring out what that looked like. Musk entering this changed the entire game. Everything that he's saying and everything that he's talking about, we're taking incredibly seriously. Not literally, but seriously. Katie Drummond: I think too what's so interesting or sort of important for WIRED is that we have a lot of background on Musk, right? We understand how he operates within the companies that he owns. We have a director on staff, Zoë Schiffer, actually one of the hosts of Uncanny Valley, wrote the book Extremely Hardcore, a fantastic book about- Leah Feiger: Everyone go read it. Katie Drummond: Everyone go read Extremely Hardcore. It's such a good book. She really told the definitive story of that takeover. Leah Feiger: Absolutely. Katie Drummond: We have this understanding of that playbook, right? His startup playbook, his Silicon Valley playbook, how he goes into companies and reshapes them in very, very drastic and often chaotic and legally dubious ways that we are now seeing play out in the government. I think that that insight and that background, to your point, allowed us to take him seriously and allowed us to contextualize a lot of this chaos that we are now seeing within the government. Leah Feiger: Right. Something that I always think about from Trump's first term is that it would be like, okay, we want to do X, Y, and Z, but it was very clear that they had no idea how to accomplish that. There is a clear difference this time around. Musk went into USDS and then immediately went after the General Services Administration, the Office of Personnel Management, basically the government's HR, and these key agencies that had access to other agencies and had access to just a ton of data and classified information and building records. Just so many things that are really core to how the US government ticks. Figuring out where to even enter the colossal that is the federal system, he figured that out. Katie Drummond: Right. There was a plan, there was a playbook. Leah Feiger: There was a plan. There was absolutely a plan. Being able to balance the chaos and planned chaos with also a very clear understanding of where to make the most impact. The treasury is such a good example of that. We're in this holding pattern right now. After our reporting that DOGE had read and write access, 18 attorneys general from around the country sued the Trump administration. There's now a temporary hold from a federal judge until Friday to say that not only can DOGE not have this access, they have to destroy anything they've taken out of these sensitive treasury payment systems. Musk meanwhile is tweeting away and saying, "We should have access. This is ridiculous. Why are you taking this from us? This is a breach of federal jurisdiction." Vance is getting in on it, too. Causing this chaos, causing this new cycle, but also knowing exactly what to target and exactly what will get him where he wants to go, it's wild to watch. Katie Drummond: It is wild. While all of that chaos plays out in front of the American people and sort of obfuscates and puts up some smoke around what's going on, I think what's important to know from WIRED is that we are really committed to just answering some very simple questions. I think that's what we set out to do with this DOGE reporting in the first place. It's what is this organization? What is it designed to do? Who works for it? What exactly are they doing inside of these agencies? That's all we're trying to figure out. Leah Feiger: Exactly. Katie Drummond: Those are the questions that our journalists have been trying to answer for the last several weeks and will continue trying to answer as we push forward with this reporting. We're going to take a short break and we'll be back in a minute. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. I'm WIRED's global editorial director, Katie Drummond. I'm here with Leah Feiger, our politics editor, and we are talking all things DOGE and federal government. Now, Leah, we talked right before we jumped into the studio. You are working on yet another scoop, and you have a look of panic in your eyes, so we do need to get moving soon. Before we leave the studio and you rush back to your desk, tell me what you and your team are keeping an eye on now. As you look ahead, I mean, it's hard to look past the next few days, but as you look to the next few days, and maybe the next few weeks, what stands out to you? What should people be paying attention to? Leah Feiger: A lot of people have been writing this over the last two days, and to echo so many who are much smarter than me, we're gearing up to a constitutional crisis right now. Musk, Vance, a number of people from the GOP Trump administration have made it very clear that they're not actually that interested in abiding by these court orders, or even temporary court holds that we have, for example, right now with DOGE's access to the treasury. What happens next? We're keeping a very close eye. As these court orders continue to come down, will DOGE's team be abiding by them? Is it just a lot of bluster saying, "Oh, we don't think that you should be being able to exercise this power over us." Are they actually abiding by them? If they don't abide by them, what happens next? This whole country is built on checks and balances, and not to go entirely Schoolhouse Rock, but we're about to enter some uncharted territory. Katie Drummond: It is very surreal. I remember just in the last few weeks talking to people about it's chaos, DOGE is doing all of these different things in all of these agencies. What's going to happen? My answer was they're moving very quickly. The courts move more slowly, but the courts will catch up to this. There are lawsuits being filed. There are individuals petitioning the courts for temporary- Leah Feiger: And so many have been. Absolutely. Katie Drummond: So many have been, so my answer has been this will go through court and it will churn through the legal system, and it will be slow and messy and painful, but that is what the legal system is here to protect and is here to safeguard is our democracy and these checks and balances. This is sort of the last stand, right? Leah Feiger: Absolutely. Katie Drummond: The courts are the last stand in terms of our democracy and constitutional integrity. What we are now looking at is the possibility that that may not hold. What would that even begin to look like if that came to pass? I know that you're not a legal expert in addition to being WIRED's politics editor, but what have you heard? What have experts told you in the course of your reporting? Leah Feiger: There's a lot of people that are saying, "Look, these holds are going to come through. Musk and Trump are going to be appealing them, and then eventually this is going to end in the Supreme Court." A lot of people are actually taking solace with this. They're saying, "Yes, the court may be leaning quite Republican ideologically, but these are trained professionals who will understand that these legal systems must be upheld and adhered to." I'm not as confident in that. Katie Drummond: Right. Leah Feiger: I'll be totally honest. In terms of what happens next, I think that because of, in some ways, the slow march of these court systems, although decisions, even temporary ones, have been coming down really fast, there's a lot of room to move fast and break things from DOGE's side meanwhile. Katie Drummond: Yeah. Leah Feiger: A lot of these eggs can't get unscrambled. A lot of these layoffs and firings and foreclosures are ... It's going to be really hard to walk those back once a court is able to finally say, "No, no, no, this just can't hold." And that's- Katie Drummond: If they can say that at all. Leah Feiger: If they can say that at all. Katie Drummond: Right. Leah Feiger: We're hearing that concern from experts all across the board right now. We've never seen anything like this. Katie Drummond: We certainly haven't. Not here in the United States. No. Leah Feiger: Not here in the United States. Katie Drummond: Well, in the meantime, we hold our breath. We keep doing the work, and we will keep delivering to all of you, WIRED listeners and WIRED readers, our reporting, what we know as we know it. That is our commitment to you. You can read all the reporting that Leah and her team are doing at Leah, thank you so much for taking the time to be here with me. I know how busy you are. Leah Feiger: Thank you so much. I love to talk about government takeovers with you, Katie. Katie Drummond: Well, now go get a granola bar from my office. Leah Feiger: About to go steal one immediately. Katie Drummond: That's our show for today. We will be back tomorrow with an episode from our regular roundtable, all about the state of dating apps, a little bit of lighthearted counter programming for all of you. If you like what you heard today, make sure to follow Uncanny Valley and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with any of us for questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Amar lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode, with engineering support from Jake Lummus. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Conde Nast's Head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon, and I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's Global Editorial Director. Thank you so much. Bye.
