Latest news with #UncannyValley
Yahoo
4 days ago
- Entertainment
- Yahoo
‘Poker Face': Simon Helberg on Singing Sondheim With John Mulaney and ‘Getting Into the S—‘ During Big Shootout Scene
SPOILER ALERT: This interview contains spoilers from 'Poker Face' Season 2, Episode 3, now streaming on Peacock. FBI agent Luca Clark (Simon Helberg) returned for more action in Episode 3 of 'Poker Face,' which is in the midst of a second season boasting more murders, more Charlie (Natasha Lyonne) investigations and more guest stars — including stand-up comedian John Mulaney. More from Variety 'Poker Face': How Old Hollywood Camera Tricks Were Used to Create Cynthia Erivo's Quintuplets Rian Johnson and Natasha Lyonne's 'Poker Face' Is Still Quite the Card Trick in Season 2: TV Review Natasha Lyonne to Direct Feature 'Uncanny Valley' Combining 'Ethical' AI and Traditional Filmmaking Techniques Rian Johnson's charming murder-of-the-week show features different marquee guest stars in every episode. But since Helberg plays one of the show's few recurring characters, he's had a chance to grow the trajectory of Luca since Season 1. 'It's exciting to see how he fumbles up the ladder, starting from driving around geriatric retired ex-cons in witness protection, all the way to cracking these really significant cases for the FBI and getting into the shit,' Helberg tells Variety. 'As an actor, it's a real dream because I haven't gotten to play a lot of heroic figures. It's really cool to play these moments where there's a damsel in distress, you're pulling out your gun and sticking your head out of a sunroof. It's probably stuff that Luca's seen in movies.' This episode sees Helberg back in action when Beatrix Hasp (Rhea Perlman) tries to find who in her crew is a mole — with the unexpected help of Charlie. Helberg recalls his first day on set — a car scene with Richard Kind, who plays Beatrix's murdered husband. 'It was showing up with this huge chunk of dialogue, a lot of, 'Hello, nice to meet you' on set, then jumping right into the scene,' Helberg says. 'It's unique because it's a TV show in its second season, but because you've got this rotating cast and rotating crew and directors, it always feels a bit like the first day of school on each episode.' Below, Helberg breaks down singing Stephen Sondheim tunes with Mulaney, why he thinks Luca would try to emulate 'Twin Peaks'' Dale Cooper and the 'fever dream' of returning to the Warner Bros lot to film the Season 3 finale of 'Night Court,' which was recently canceled at NBC. I was very excited that the 'John Mulaney type' referenced in the script actually became John Mulaney. That was a treat, because that's how he was described. Even if it ended up just being a 'John Mulaney type,' I'd be excited, but I had the real thing. He couldn't have been kinder and sweeter. We had to jump right in and wrestle each other and squeeze each other's cheeks with strange, clumsy fighting. And we were supposed to be best friends, too. So all of that breaks the ice pretty quickly when you're groping another guy on set. I had become, like most people, kind of obsessed with him. He's a very curious follow who's interested in everything that's happening and everybody that's around him. His observations are what sets him apart from everybody else. In terms of any kind of cliché about stand-ups being awkward or hostile, which there are some, John couldn't be farther from that. It's pretty verbatim on my part. I know John and Natasha improvised a bit in their scene when he's under arrest. But the writing is just so sharp. The team is so keen to good storytelling — always a beat ahead and shocking in a way that still feels authentic. We didn't meet with any musical coaches or work too intensely on those beats. I know Sondheim and some musicals, but I actually wasn't super familiar with 'Merrily We Roll Along' for some reason. And I don't know if John was. We didn't really talk much about it. Best left unspoken, I think. I listened to those songs and those phrases like a psychopath on repeat. There's these moments where he'll say something quippy and put on sunglasses and like, he's seen 'The Fugitive.' He's seen 'Point Break.' He knows that there's something to the suaveness that detectives can have and there's probably an awareness of that. I don't know if I should be embarrassed, or it's just a fortuitous thing, but I hadn't seen 'Twin Peaks' until after shooting the second season. I'm actually in the middle of watching it, but Kyle MacLachlan's Dale Cooper is completely someone who I think Luca would probably have seen and maybe even tried to emulate. After watching it, I was like, 'Wow, it's the same hairstyle!' There's that sort of earnestness and good-doer quality, trying to be the best FBI agent you can be. When I opened the script for this episode, I saw in the third page or something that I got shot in the head. I did get scared, but I guess that was the point. It was really technical and, in many ways, plays on things that I don't feel particularly skilled at doing. You're supposed to have a real second-nature quality to all that stuff, obviously, and it's not like I got to really spend a ton of time with the gun and doing those kinds of stunts with the time you have on set. There was some of that where, mechanically, you just want it to feel lived in. It's very piecemeal, shooting those kinds of action sequences. Sometimes you'll just film a moment of ducking out of frame, or it's the stunt person who falls in the shot but you're on the ground in the next. It's like hearing an album out of the order and trying to remember where each song goes on the playlist because you're like, 'Where are we in this?' And then you see it all put together and it might be 30 seconds on screen, but it's got 50 shots. It was a little like a fever dream getting to drive back on the Warner Bros. lot and going back on the sound stage. Seeing Melissa and some of the same crew was really a joy. I love Melissa so much. It was great to kind of hint at our former relationship and dynamic that we had on 'The Big Bang Theory' but still stray so far from it. The whole scene was really kind of a hint — letting the audience into a secret past that they didn't know she had. It was fun to pop in there and play a different version of husband and wife. My goal is to always be doing something different. I just hope not to repeat too many beats and too many of the same characters, which is funny coming from somebody who played the same character for 12 years. And maybe that's part of it. But when I started 'The Big Bang Theory,' it was, 'Hey, maybe we'll do a pilot and then get picked up.' I auditioned just like every other job, every other character I've ever played and it happened to last for an incredibly long time. So I'm just really hungry to have opportunities where I can challenge myself. It does tend to be in opposition to 'Big Bang' just because I did that for so long. This interview has been edited and condensed. Best of Variety New Movies Out Now in Theaters: What to See This Week Emmy Predictions: Talk/Scripted Variety Series - The Variety Categories Are Still a Mess; Netflix, Dropout, and 'Hot Ones' Stir Up Buzz Oscars Predictions 2026: 'Sinners' Becomes Early Contender Ahead of Cannes Film Festival
Yahoo
05-05-2025
- Entertainment
- Yahoo
Cinephile Natasha Lyonne Defends AI Film ‘Uncanny Valley': 'Nothing I Love More Than Movies'
Natasha Lyonne had a long press line clamoring for her attention Thursday night at the second season premiere of Peacock's Poker Face in Hollywood. The veteran actress, whose multi-hyphenate duties on the critically acclaimed comedy series include writing, directing, starring and executive producing, didn't have time to stop for every outlet before she was needed on the American Legion Post 43 stage to introduce the screening alongside her partner-in-crime Rian Johnson. So she did something rare (and appreciated among the journalists left waiting outside) by heading to the stage to deliver those comments only to return to the red carpet and give every reporter some of her undivided attention. After detailing the 'magic' of the new season thanks to a killer line-up of high-profile guest stars, The Hollywood Reporter asked Lyonne about that other new project of hers on the horizon — an artificial intelligence-infused film Uncanny Valley. More from The Hollywood Reporter Natasha Lyonne Set to Make Feature Directorial Debut With AI Film - With Help From Jaron Lanier (Exclusive) 'Poker Face' Season 2 Trailer Heads Back on the Road With Natasha Lyonne Kumail Nanjiani on Playing a Florida Cop Named Gator Joe in 'Poker Face' Season 2: "Did You Send This One to Me by Mistake?" News of the project broke two days before the Poker Face premiere and caused a stir. As reported by THR, Lyonne is set to make her feature directorial debut on the film from a script she wrote with Brit Marling and both are on board to star. Set in the world of immersive video games and said to blend live-action and game elements, Uncanny Valley centers on a teenage girl named Mila who becomes unmoored by a hugely popular AR video game in a parallel present. Partners on the project — designed to offer a 'radical new cinematic experience,' per an Asteria representative — include technology innovator Jaron Lanier, the AI-based studio Asteria (founded by Lyonne with partner Bryn Mooser) and Moonvalley. It was obvious that the buzz had reached Lyonne, who was quick to defend the project during her time with THR. 'Of course the movie's going to be shot like a real movie. Now I'm really threatening to just shoot it on 35 [mm] or something to prove the point because [we are using] real-life human cinematographers and production designers and all that, of course,' explained Lyonne. 'I'm a Mr. Moviefone. There's nothing I love more than movies. Cinema is my very celluloid blood that runs through these veins. I love nothing more than filmmaking, the filmmaking community, the collaboration of it, the tactile fine art of it. I love every aspect of it — it's so incredible. I understand my own church, in a way, even when the rest of the world doesn't make sense. In no way would I ever want to do anything other than really create some guardrails or a new language.' The guardrails she referenced relate to how Moonvalley relies on an AI model called 'Marey' that is built on data that has been copyright cleared, unlike other viral industry leaders. 'I have this new studio that I founded, Asteria, with Bryn Mooser, and we found these amazing engineers at Moonvalley, and they agreed off this idea of why is every model dirty, like Runway and OpenAI? And why are they building it off of stolen data? Why do cell phones just have stolen data? It's a problem,' Lyonne said. 'What's so incredible about Marey is that it's the first underlying foundational model that you build on top of that is actually on copyrighted license, and you can go in with your concept artist and your storyboard artist and start building out a world.' Lyonne then praised her collaborators like Marling and Lanier, the latter of whom she called 'a pretty heavy hitter in this space' and a 'philosophical, ethical guy.' She added: 'We're getting to really find these sort of rules of play and start to understand that there might be a way to actually have some artist protection and carve out within all this that keeps us doing the thing that we love.' Speaking of that affection, Lyonne then recalled how close she was with the iconic filmmaker Nora Ephron. 'She was a real mentor of mine — I played a lot of poker — and she would say, 'Whatever you do, don't be a female filmmaker. You're only allowed one mistake and they never let you work again.' Of course she made so many hits that wasn't exactly true, but it was an interesting lesson about the opportunities that are given or not. I really see this as a way to get a chance to make those sort of Avengers-style sequences or something that are essentially green screen and CGI. That's mostly what [AI] is going to be used for, and that's what the word 'hybrid' means here.' Best of The Hollywood Reporter 'The Goonies' Cast, Then and Now "A Nutless Monkey Could Do Your Job": From Abusive to Angst-Ridden, 16 Memorable Studio Exec Portrayals in Film and TV The 10 Best Baseball Movies of All Time, Ranked
WIRED
30-04-2025
- Business
- WIRED
A Tariff Standoff With China, Power Outages, and the End of Christmas
By Zoë Schiffer and Louise Matsakis Apr 30, 2025 12:21 PM On today's episode of Uncanny Valley , we break down how Trump's tariffs might threaten this year's holiday season. People work at a Christmas tree factory for export and domestic markets in Jinhua, China's eastern Zhejiang province on April 11, 2025. Photo-Illustration: WIRED Staff; Photograph:President Trump's tariff standoff with China has caused chaos, confusion, and major delays for companies of all shapes and sizes. As everyone waits to see what happens next, some businesses that depend on international trade are already feeling major impacts, saying that they might not meet their production deadlines. And one of those deadlines is pretty important: Christmas. Today on the show, we're joined by WIRED's senior business editor Louise Matsakis to talk through the latest on tariffs. Mentioned in this episode: Donald Trump Is Already Ruining Christmas by Zeyi Yang OpenAI Adds Shopping to ChatGPT in a Challenge to Google by Reece Rogers The Agonizing Task of Turning Europe's Power Back On by Natasha Bernal You can follow Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer and Louise Matsakis on Bluesky at @lmatsakis. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Zoë Schiffer: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley . I'm WIRED's Director of Business and Industry Zoë Schiffer. Well, we're 100 days in to Trump's second term in office and we're all waiting to see what happens with the tariff standoff with China. Especially for businesses of all sizes that absolutely depend on international trade. In some cases, the setbacks have been so significant that businesses with set production cycles are saying that might not even meet their deadlines. One of those deadlines is pretty important because it's Christmas. Today on the show, I'm joined by WIRED's Senior Business Editor Louise Matsakis to talk the latest on tariffs. Welcome to Uncanny Valley , Louise. Louise Matsakis: Hey, Zoë. Thanks for having me. Zoë Schiffer: Let's dive right in because we had some reporting on WIRED this week about Christmas specifically. I guess the first question to kick things off is is Christmas canceled? Louise Matsakis: Well, it definitely could be. I think that we're certainly in danger of missing a bunch of deadlines for, like you said, production cycles for things like artificial trees to be produced, decorations, toys for kids to put under the tree. All of those things start happening now in April. Zoë Schiffer: I think that that's a little bit counterintuitive for a lot of people. It definitely was for me when Zeyi, our reporter, started working on this story. The idea that these companies in the United States need to anticipate what they're going to need for Christmas now is mind-blowing. Louise Matsakis: Totally. If you think about it though, it makes a lot of sense. The first thing you need to do is negotiate with the suppliers, agree on designs, finalize product orders. Then it takes about two to three months for the manufacturing to actually happen. For all of those ornaments to be produced, for the decorations to put on, for everything to be packaged. Then it can take another one to two months just for those items to cross the Pacific Ocean and get to the US, and then be distributed to different retailers and warehouses across the country from there. That gets us to about mid-September to October. By, I feel like it gets earlier and earlier every year, but around November, Christmas stuff starts hitting shelves. Zoë Schiffer: It seems like there are also a bunch of products where consumers might be able to eat the cost, but when we're talking about ornaments, and trees, and stuff like that, you just really can't set the price that much higher, right? Louise Matsakis: Yeah. These are essentially non-essentials. These are the types of items that you don't necessarily need to buy, but that make life more fun, or perhaps make Christmas magical. Zoë Schiffer: Based on Zeyi's reporting, how are manufacturers doing right now? Louise Matsakis: There's two sides of the coin. On one side are the business owners, the retailers in the US, and then there are the manufacturers in China. The retailers are basically saying, "These tariffs are so high that we have to cancel or pause our orders." The manufacturers are saying, "Well, without orders, we have to close down our production lines." Or in a lot of cases, they're trying to pivot to other markets. Zeyi Yang, our senior China reporter, had this amazing anecdote about people in China who make Santa decorations, Santa figurines. They're trying to make Santa's face more European. Apparently, it's a slightly wider Santa in Europe that they prefer, an old-school Santa look. They're trying to pivot to making more figurines like that, instead of the chubby, jolly Santa that we prefer in the United States. Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh, okay. Is anyone winning as a result of these tariffs? Is this a total boon to people who manufacture ornaments in the United States? Or is that market just incredibly small? Louise Matsakis: I think aside from really small crafters who make ornaments and maybe other sorts of decorations here, it's basically a non-existent market. Even those crafters and small businesses, they're probably getting their craft supplies from China in the first place. This is not really benefiting any US manufacturing. There's not a renaissance of Christmas decorations happening. Zoë Schiffer: While I'm curious to see how this all plays out, I feel like if there's anything that will get Americans to riot in the streets, it's prices on Amazon going on, and/or their Christmas decorations getting too expensive. We'll take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the impact on ecommerce goods in particular. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley . This weekend, we saw companies like Shein and Temu hike their prices as a result of Trump's 145% tariffs on China. Let's talk about the impact of tariffs on ecommerce. Louise, I feel like this is maybe a core area of expertise for you. Can you get us started? Louise Matsakis: Yes. What's happening on Shein and Temu is my personal Roman Empire. What we're seeing, particularly on Temu thus far, is that they are actually adding a line item when you go to check out that shows the price of the tariffs. Yesterday, I just added about $32 worth of random goods to my shopping cart, and then I could see that there was a $44 tariff charge that was added on top. I think that's a really savvy move because it shows consumers exactly why they're seeing a price increase. I think it's also helpful for Shein and Temu, which have been pivoting even before these tariffs were announced to other markets, like Europe and Latin America. Those goods can stay roughly the same price in those markets, but it's just the American consumers that will see that added charge near where you see the added taxes. Zoë Schiffer: Got it, okay. Obviously, that makes sense for logistical reasons. It's easier to just add a tariff charge than raise the price of individual goods. But is it also a way to subtly exert pressure on the Trump Administration, or am I over-interpreting things? Louise Matsakis: I don't think that you are. I think it sends a pretty clear political message. That these charges are because your country has these really high tariffs. I think it's definitely a subtle message that these companies are sending. I think Temu in particular is a mystery. They don't have any lobbyists on Capitol Hill. They rarely if ever respond to media requests from journalists like me. It's interesting to see them I think doing something that is politically savvy in this case, whereas most of the time they're either silent or they're policy decisions seem a little bit haphazard. Zoë Schiffer: Like you said, for at least Temu and Shein, it's a line item right now. We're not seeing the price of individual goods really change at this point. But is that true across the board, or are there some items in particular that we should be worried about? Louise Matsakis: The types of items that you should look out for are things that really can't be made anywhere else. That's stuff like electronics, anything that's plastic. A lot of stuff for parents. Strollers, baby gear, baby toys, baby clothes, all of those things are almost entirely made in China. These are also product categories where the margins are already pretty thin, so there's not that much wiggle room for the manufacturer or the American brand to eat the cost themselves. These are items that are often already somewhere between 10 to $30. Zoë Schiffer: Right, okay. Well, I won't put you on blast and make you talk about the things that you've stocked up on recently. Louise Matsakis: I'm happy to share with our dear readers that I sent Zoë a horrifying photo the other day of an ungodly number of makeup sponges that I panic ordered on Temu the other day, because I refuse to go back to spending, whatever, $11 that Sephora charges for one of these. Zoë Schiffer: 100%. This is a little bit of a pivot, but I feel like you and I have talked a lot about how it's not as simple as just opening up production facilities in the United States. There's a lot that goes into China being so dominant in the space. I'm wondering if you can just talk us through that briefly? Louise Matsakis: I think that there's this narrative that all these jobs left the United States and they went to China when China joined the World Trade Organization at the turn of the century. But that's a really simplistic narrative. The reality is that 20 years ago, a lot of the products that we're talking about right now, makeup sponges, iPhones, small electronics, the insulated Stanley cup that I'm looking at right now on my desk, these products literally did not exist. It's not as though these supply chains moved from the US to China, it's that they were built entirely from the ground up in China. That includes things like the machinery. How do you do an injection molding to make this plastic cup out of a mold? Those machines were built, designed, manufactured, and maintained in China from the time that they were invented. It's really difficult to move that entire supply chain to the US. In China, the government has totally organized itself around supporting this type of enterprise. Where, in the US, we just don't have any of that infrastructure in place, whether it's even the most basic things. Roads, ports, land available to open giant factories, talent pipelines. We don't have a high school you can go to here to become a garment worker, which is a very common thing in China. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. I think it's so interesting, because I feel like prior to talking to you for many hours a day, I had the misconception that a lot of people have, that made in China was a synonym for cheaply made. But you've told me again and again that actually, the quality of manufacturing in China is far superior. When you talk to companies in the United States that have tried to source from the US versus China, what they'll say is that the US quality just absolutely isn't there. Louise Matsakis: Totally. I think it's just we don't have the supply chains in place. I think in China, you can definitely get cheap manufacturing, but I think that one thing people don't always understand is that if you're Walmart, your signature thing is that you have low prices. You're going to put pressure on your suppliers in China to ensure that prices remain low. If prices are low, then the manufacturing is not going to be high quality. I think that that's the type of retailer that a lot of people are historically familiar with when it comes to things made in China. But you can go to a much nicer store, and the stuff is still made in China and the prices are higher. It's just maybe less in your face or it's less discussed when you go to William Sonoma or to, back in the day we used to call Target Tar-jay when it was the nicer retailer. But it doesn't mean that it's coming from a different place, it just depends on the economics of that particular item. Zoë Schiffer: Then just getting back to the Christmas of it all, if they don't put in their orders now, those facilities in China that are working 24 hours or whatever, they conceivably would either have to pivot their manufacturing or lay people off. Which would mean that even if the tariff situation is resolved, we won't be able to get stuff back and working in a timeframe that would allow Christmas to proceed as usual. Louise Matsakis: Yeah, there's two things to consider here. One is that, let's say tomorrow, Trump totally changes his mind, which is perfectly possible. There's going to be a stampede to resume orders. All of a sudden, these factories that have been sitting idle for almost a month now are going to have to ramp up production immediately. Retailers are going to have to pay a premium to get space on that factory line, or to be prioritized, to have their orders made first and put on ships as quickly as possible. Prices are still going to be higher for consumers. The other thing is that if this goes on for too long and these workers and these factories don't have jobs anymore, a lot of them are going to go home. In many cases, these are migrant workers who come from more rural parts of China and they actually live onsite often at the factory. They live and work in the same place. They often do these long stints where they'll work six or sometimes seven days a week for a few months, and then take that money and go back where they're from, see their kids, see their families. If there's no more work, there's no reason for them to stay there. This isn't their home, this is not where they're from. It's really hard when that happens for factories to get those workers to come back immediately. Zoë Schiffer: Also, very hard to imagine even a remotely similar scenario playing out in the United States if we were able to open big manufacturing facilities here. Louise Matsakis: Yeah, I can't see that many Americans wanting to live in a dorm with 12 of their coworkers on the factory line. But let me know! Send me an email if you're interested in that setup for sure, because I would love to talk to you about it. Zoë Schiffer: We're going to take another quick break. Up next, our favorite reads on this week. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley . I'm Zoë Schiffer, WIRED's director of business and industry. I'm joined today by WIRED's Senior Business Editor Louise Matsakis. Before we go, Louise, tell our listeners what they absolutely have to read on today. Other than the stories we mentioned in this piece, obviously. Louise Matsakis: Speaking of online shopping, OpenAI is now getting into the ecommerce business. I highly recommend people read Reese Rogers, another one of our AI reporters, did a deep dive on how OpenAI's new shopping integration works. It's super fascinating. I think it'll be really interesting if, in a few years, when we all want to buy something that is now much higher in price because of tariffs, maybe we all start asking ChatGPT how to find the best deal. Zoë Schiffer: I'm a little worried about this because I feel like one reason that I like ChatGPT's search so much better than Google's is because it doesn't have horrendous ads all over the place. I feel like we are inevitably inching closer to a world in which they look more similar. Louise Matsakis: Yeah, I agree. Zoë Schiffer: Okay. The piece that I want to recommend is Natasha Bernal's piece from yesterday about the major blackout that hit basically the entirety of Portugal and Spain, and also small regions of France. This was obviously major news that we woke up to yesterday. She had a really good angle on it, on basically how difficult it is to get the grid back up and running. Experts she talked to said it will take several hours to several days. There was a quote in there that it's like "assembling some hellishly complicated Ikea furniture." That's worrying. Louise Matsakis: That's a great recommendation, Zoë. Zoë Schiffer: That's our show for today. We'll link to all the stories we spoke about in the show notes. Make sure to check out Thursday's episode of Uncanny Valley , which is about measles and the state of health in the United States under RFK, Jr. If you liked what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with us for any questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Kyana Moghadam and Adriana Tapia produced this episode. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Conde Nast's Head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon. Katie Drummond is WIRED's global editorial director.
WIRED
23-04-2025
- Automotive
- WIRED
Is Tesla on the Outs in China?
By Zoë Schiffer and Zeyi Yang Apr 23, 2025 1:29 PM Despite being the biggest electric vehicle market in the world, China might decide it's had enough of Tesla. In this episode of Uncanny Valley , we break it all down. Elon Musk, chief executive officer of Tesla Inc., during a cabinet meeting at the White House in Washington, DC, US, on Thursday, April 10, 2025. Photograph:China has long been an important market for Tesla and for Elon Musk, but with the new US tariffs and rising competition in the electric vehicle market, Tesla may be on the outs in China. Today on the show, we're joined by senior writer Zeyi Yang to talk about what this means for Elon Musk's company. Mentioned in this episode: DOGE Is Building a Master Database to Surveil and Track Immigrants by Makena Kelly and Vittoria Elliott Stumbling and Overheating, Most Humanoid Robots Fail to Finish Half-Marathon in Beijing by Zeyi Yang You can follow Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer and Zeyi Yang on Bluesky at @zeyiyang. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Zoë Schiffer: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley . I'm WIRED's Director of Business and Industry Zoë Schiffer. Today on the show, Tesla's troubles in China and what it means for Elon Musk's wallet. We're going to talk about how China is the biggest electric vehicle market in the world and has played a major role in Tesla's growth. But with the US tariffs and rising competition in the country, China may just be done with Tesla. We'll see. I'm joined today by Zeyi Yang, senior writer at WIRED. Zeyi, welcome to the show. Zeyi Yang: Thanks for having me, Zoë. Zoë Schiffer: Tesla is scheduled to release its first quarter earnings today, after a pretty grim quarter for the company's stock price. Can we just start with what are we expecting to see from these results? Because we're recording a few hours before they actually come out. Zeyi Yang: Exactly. I'm also looking for the result, too. But I think we already know that Tesla sales has doing pretty bad in Europe. It may have also been bad in the USA. Really, China may have been one of the last market where its sales are still doing relatively okay, but we're about to find out. I think from what I saw, the data collected by Chinese industry associates, they're saying that Tesla's doing still okay this year, mostly because of they release a new model of their car. But if not for that, maybe would have went down, too. Zoë Schiffer: Let's take a bit of a step back, because China has been a really important market for Tesla and for Elon Musk generally. He's a celebrity there and so is his mom, as you've reported. Zeyi Yang: Yes, she is. Zoë Schiffer: Can you talk to me about that relationship? And also, what is Tesla's standing like in China? Is it viewed as a popular, cool car still? Zeyi Yang: It's still sort of, because for the longest time, Chinese auto brands have been seen as much inferior than foreign brands. Tesla still has that halo on as this American electric car company. But it's losing it as we speak. Also, when we talk about the relationship between Tesla and China, sometimes I forget how far back it dates. There's one very interesting figure we have to talk about. His name is Zhuanglong. He used to be Chinese Minister of Industry and Information Technologies. Basically, the chief ministry of innovations in China. He went to San Francisco in 2008 and tried one of the roadsters, one of the first electric cars that Tesla makes. Because he came from the auto industry, he was an electric car nerd. That's how this all started. Then, from Musk's very first visit to China in 2014, he met this guy again. He really tried to push for it to sell his car in China, and later we know built a Gigafactory in Shanghai in 2020. That's a long history of how Musk and Tesla entered China. But what we know for now is that China is one of the most production facility for Tesla. It's also one of the biggest market for Tesla. Tesla absolutely cannot lose China. Zoë Schiffer: That's really fascinating, because we know with other tech companies like Google and Meta, they tried really, really hard to get into China and weren't quite as successful, or completely failed in some cases. But Elon Musk was able to prevail. Do we know why that was? Zeyi Yang: I think it helps that he's working on a car company instead of a social media company, because there's just so much stricter control over information and internet in China. Whereas if you're just making a car, it don't really go across those red lines that China has. Also, it just helps that China, for the last two decades, have really been thinking, "Maybe I should be betting on electric vehicle as the future of transportation, too." It did welcome Tesla to be a part of its grand experiment, and also investment to build up an EV empire. That's why Tesla become a very central part of it and contributed to how China has achieved so far. Zoë Schiffer: Well, that leads right into my next question, because China has invested really heavily in electric vehicles. In part, I think, to reduce its dependency on foreign oil imports. How is that going so far? Zeyi Yang: It's going pretty well, I will say. Yeah. China does not have very rich oil reserve and it has been importing oil from a lot of other places for the longest time. That's why the Chinese government have always been very careful about that, because if, for example, a World War III happens, those oil supply are going to be cut off. What is it going to do? I think in the early days, I will say the early 2000s, the idea of electric vehicles was this moonshot idea. Where they were thinking, "Maybe, if one day all the cars will be powered by electricity, then we don't need to import this oil anymore and we'll be much more secure if war breaks out." That's when they really started investing in the research of batteries and electric vehicles as a college research funds. But then, that gradually lead to Chinese companies building up. They heavily subsidize any car company who can make actually a product that get run on the road and customers can buy. All of that, after years of heavy spending, lead to what we have right now, which is a very booming electric vehicle market in China. I think the latest data says that more than 50% of consumers when they're trying to buy a new car, they go for electric rather than a gas car. That's pretty remarkable. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, that's really interesting. It's also something we're hearing a lot about now. We're seeing people close to President Trump saying, "Hey, look at China. They really help their homegrown tech companies, and now China seems to be beating us in key markets." It's this idea that perhaps the US government should have a friendlier relationship with the tech companies that are created in the United States. Zeyi Yang: Well, I will say it's more of a love and hate relationship between the Chinese government and their homegrown companies, because we definitely have seen the honeymoon eras where they subsidize them, where they get the domestic market and driven out all of the foreign competitors. But also, there are periods, I think around 2020, when they really cracked down on the tech companies like Alibaba and Tencent. It can backfire. The government can help you, but it can also destroy you. Zoë Schiffer: Okay. Who is Tesla's biggest competition in the country right now? Which cars are we seeing become more popular than Tesla? Zeyi Yang: There are so many, I will say dozens are EV brands in China right now. The biggest probably is BYD, just because of its sheer size. BYD, a Chinese company, that started really by making batteries and small electronics, now is I think the biggest electric vehicle companies in the world in terms of the number of cars they sell. Bigger than Tesla. Of course, they're growing in China and they're selling their cars much cheaper and in much more varieties in China. But we're also seeing there are a few more electric car, I will call it startups because they were funded in the last 10 years or so, but still they are big players in the Chinese market now, too. They are Neo, they are Li Auto. These companies have really rosen up from having nothing and becoming a big player, pushing for affordable and also capable cars to the market now. Zoë Schiffer: When we hone in on BYD specifically, what is that car like compared to a Tesla? I guess, I want your subjective opinion now. Are they better or are they just cheaper? Zeyi Yang: I think the biggest thing is that they come in more variety. You will get a very cheap car, for example, I don't know, a Toyota Corolla, something similar to that, but in an EV form by BYD. Or if you want a luxury SUV, you want something that you can show off to your friends, BYD offers that, too. Where Tesla really only have, what, three models being offered right now? It's hard to compete with them when you know consumers want very different things. The other thing I find really interesting is that because, I guess Chinese EV companies are already pretty confident with the quality of their car now, they're going for those very niche, very weird applications. They're making cars that can run in water, like turn into a boat. They're making cars that can allow you to play computer games, and they even have a hotpot in there. Not everyone's going to use it like that, but maybe someone will see that and be like, "I want a car that allow me to do that once in a year." Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh. Well, as someone who really liked the show Pimp My Ride on MTV when I was younger, maybe this was what I need in my life. We'll be right back. When we return, what does this mixed economic outlook mean for Elon Musk's wallet? The outlook seems mixed for Elon Musk's future in China, or Tesla's future in China I should say. What does this mean him, and specifically his overall wealth? Zeyi Yang: I will say that, first of all, he really wants to make sure the factory in Shanghai keeps producing more cars, because it is the most productive plant in Tesla. He wants it to keep churning out cars. But if the foreign demand doesn't catch up, then what are these cars for? We know right now it's mostly for I would say the European market and also the Chinese domestic market. He's proud that these factories are running 24/7. If that doesn't happen, it would really hurt Tesla's Shanghai factory's efficiency and that would not be good for him. Zoë Schiffer: Musk is in an interesting position with his business interests in China, particularly as the Trump Administration gets more antagonistic toward the Chinese Communist Party. Can you talk about that a little bit? And also, how do you see that playing out? Zeyi Yang: I think the whole development's very fascinating to me. One thing I want to mention right now is that, obviously everyone's talking about the tariffs. The Chinese government and Chinese people hate that Trump is slapping at 145% tariff on Chinese imports. Musk actually doesn't like that. He said it publicly on X, that he doesn't think the tariffs are a good idea. That is because if you are a multinational company doing business in US and China, you are going to be impacted by those tariffs. Even though we know that the cars made in the Shanghai factory aren't exactly shipped to the United States, but maybe they're trading car parts in emergencies maybe, or there's some kind of business developed between the countries that will be cut off by these tariffs. That's not good new for him. I think that's a good example to show that, even though we know Musk and Trump are in this very close alliance, there's still diverging interests between them. How to handle business deals with China, how to handle the private sector connections with China, that is one thing I think they will disagree on. Zoë Schiffer: We know from other reporting that Elon tried to privately lobby Trump against the tariffs on China, and ultimately he appears to have been unsuccessful, at least so far. It's interesting to see it play out, because those of these men seem very interested in their own bottom line and their own business interests. When those interests align, they get along really well, but China is this point where they seem to diverge, like you said, quite intensely. I'm curious if that will become a breaking point in the relationship, or if they'll be able to resolve their differences. Zeyi Yang: Yeah. The other thing I want to point out is that, for the longest time, China, both the Chinese people and the government, have really viewed Musk as one of their friends. They came here, helped us prop up the electric vehicle industry, and are still contributing a lot of tax dollar from their Shanghai Tesla factory. Now I think they're in a bit of figuring out what's their new attitude to Musk. It's like, "He's still doing all of those things. His company is still contributing to our economy." But at the same time, he's a close ally of Trump that's absolutely wreaking havoc to our economy. What do we see there? When I go on social media and just watch how people comment about Musk, I see a lot of mix there. There's people who still see him as the future of technology. But then there are people who are like, "Why don't you say something about the tariffs?" Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. It's so interesting. It'll be very curious to see whether his celebrity status starts to fade. Or even, we've seen in the United States and Europe, if this symbol of what a Tesla means, it used to be this very cool, environmental symbol, become something different altogether. We've all seen those bumper stickers that are like, "I bought this Tesla before Elon Musk went crazy," or whatever. Zeyi Yang: Yeah. Zoë Schiffer: I think the point where we know it's really shifted is when Maye Musk's popularity starts to decline, because you've reported that she's an enormous celebrity in China. Zeyi Yang: Oh, that would be a big change, for sure. I don't see that happening yet, but maybe soon. Zoë Schiffer: We're going to take another short break. When we come back, we'll share our recommendations for what to check out on this week. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley . I'm Zoë Schiffer, WIRED's director of business and industry. I'm joined by WIRED's Senior Writer Zeyi Yang. Before we take off, Zeyi, tell our listeners what they absolutely need to read on today. Zeyi Yang: I will say it's the story about how DOGE is building a massive immigration database by my colleagues Mackena and Victoria. I read the story on Monday morning when I was just coming back from work and my head was blown. I was like, "Oh, wow." It's connecting so many dots of our previous DOGE reporting, including some by you, Zoë. I remember when I was reading all of those previous reporting, I was thinking that, "Why do they want all of this data? What is it going to be of use to them?" Now, when we're finally connecting dots and be like, "Hey, maybe this is what they were going for," I think that's such a much better explainer of the whole DOGE operation to me. The last thing is that, I don't know, there are just so many granular details in that story. Absolutely everyone should read it. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, I completely agree. I think one thing we were wondering from the very early days of DOGE, because we saw them sucking up all of this data, or at least accessing it in a lot of different ways. The question was why, like you said. Now we know at least one use might be to track people coming into this country. Zeyi Yang: I have to say that, as someone from China, this is something people are always afraid of the Chinese government doing. They're saying that, "Well, you obviously have a lot of data of the Chinese people already. Please do not connect them and build into a central database to surveil everyone." Now we're seeing a similar kind of thing being built in the US and that makes me even more scared. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, completely. Okay. Well, my recommendation is a story that you wrote. You took your Saturday and probably some of your Friday to write about this humanoid robot half-marathon. It was a half-marathon that humans were running in, but also about 21 robots were running in. I think it was the first time we've seen this happen. You wrote this really charming, funny, scary at points dispatch from the race. Maybe because you're here, you can just give us a little bit of an overview, because the robots didn't do that well, right? Zeyi Yang: No. Unfortunately, no. I was expecting them to do a little bit better, but no. Basically, on Saturday morning in China, this was this half-marathon race in Beijing where 21 robot teams participated. Only six of them actually finished the race, and only one of them made it into the cut of time for human athletes. From that you know, they're not doing great. But also, just the literal ways that they fall and fail, it's hilarious. One of them, I remember so clearly. First of all, I don't think it actually worked. It used propellers, like drone propellers to push the robot forward. It immediately lost its direction, twirled in two circles, and fell. And dragged down the human operators too, which was really, really painful. I think it's a good example of saying that robots can do impressive things now, like for example finishing a half-marathon. But at the same time, there are a lot of problems we need to address. Definitely not every company is getting to that level. Zoë Schiffer: Honestly, it comforts me a little bit that there are some things that they're still worse at than humans, although I'm sure it will change soon. That's our show for today. We'll link to all the stories we spoke about in the show notes. Make sure to check out Thursday's episode of Uncanny Valley , which is about protecting yourself from phone searches at the US border. If you like what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with us for any questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Kyana Moghadam and Adriana Tapia produced this episode. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Pran Bandi was our New York studio engineer. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Conde Nast's head of global audio is Chris Bannon. Katie Drummond is WIRED's global editorial director.
WIRED
16-04-2025
- Business
- WIRED
Will Meta Really Have to Sell Instagram and WhatsApp?
People stand in line to enter the E. Barrett Prettyman United States Court House on April 14, 2025 in Washington, DC. Photo-Illustration: WIRED Staff; Photograph: Chip Somodevilla The trial between the US Federal Trade Commission and Meta began this week—and the future of the company is at stake. The FTC wants Meta to sell off two prized assets, Instagram and WhatsApp, arguing that it acquired them illegally to suppress competition. Today on the show, senior writer Paresh Dave joins host Zoë Schiffer to discuss what we know right now about the government's case—and what we learned when Mark Zuckerberg took the stand Monday. Articles mentioned in this episode: FTC v Meta Trial: The Future of Instagram and WhatsApp Is at Stake, by Paresh Dave You can follow Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer and Paresh Dave on Bluesky at @peard33. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'Uncanny Valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Zoë Schiffer: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley . I'm WIRED's director of business and industry, Zoë Schiffer. Today on the show, we're talking about the FTC versus Meta trial. The US Federal Trade Commission is alleging that Meta illegally acquired Instagram and WhatsApp in an effort to suppress competition, and it wants to force Meta to spin off those assets into separate entities. Yesterday, Mark Zuckerberg took the stand to defend his company. We're going to get into it today. I'm joined by Paresh Dave, senior writer at WIRED, to talk about the trial. Paresh, welcome to Uncanny Valley . Paresh Dave: Hey. Thanks, Zoë. Zoë Schiffer: Paresh, before we get started, what's the big story here? Paresh Dave: The FTC is trying to get Facebook to sell off WhatsApp and Instagram. That's huge. Zoë Schiffer: That's a big deal. Let's start with what the FTC is actually arguing here, because this is something you and I have talked about in recent days. What's the theory of the case? Paresh Dave: It's a couple of things. One, that Facebook has a long-standing monopoly on providing what's known in the FTC's parlance as personal social networking services in the US. We all know Facebook is a social media platform, but what kind of social media platform is it? In the FTC's view, it competes with Snapchat and this little-known thing called MiWi that are about connecting with friends and family. In the FTC's argument, TikTok, YouTube, all these other social media services we know of are not competitors to Facebook because those are about watching creators, not really about connecting with family and friends. One, the FTC has to establish that Facebook has this monopoly on personal social networking services, and the judge has to go along with that being the right market here. And then two, the argument is that Facebook made these acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp over a decade ago, and that the acquisitions harmed competition, being they were meant to take out competitors in this space of personal social networking services in the US. Consumers and advertisers are worse off as a result, that there's more ads that consumers are seeing. Worse advertising services. Consumers have less privacy because if there was more competition, Facebook wouldn't be able to get away with taking as much of our data. Issues like that are why the FTC say that this is a trial worth pursuing. Zoë Schiffer: I laughed when you were talking about it only because the definition of that market seems a little bit absurd to me. The idea that TikTok isn't a competitor seems like something maybe only the FTC believes. Paresh Dave: It does, but the FTC points to these emails from early Facebook days, right after Mark Zuckerberg created it, where he says Facebook is about connecting with family and friends. The argument being that Facebook kind of changed and evolved because it didn't have competition. And that's fuzzy, too, because we also know that Facebook copied a lot of what other companies did, but that's now for the judge to decide what the right market definition is. He was skeptical early on when this case was first filed by the FTC, and the FTC had to amend it. But if we land on this personal social networking services in the US, then Facebook commands 80 percent of that market, in the FTC's view. Zoë Schiffer: Interesting. And what is Meta's argument? What's its pushback to the FTC's case? Paresh Dave: Well, the first one is what we just talked about. The FTC is defining this market too narrowly, and Facebook faces tons of competition, including from TikTok in particular, and that when TikTok went down back in January as a result of the TikTok ban and the Biden-Trump transition, and there was that 12- to 14-hour period where TikTok was gone, a lot of TikTok users migrated to Facebook, is the argument. And so, Facebook is a substitute, and therefore they are competitors. Another argument is that consumers aren't actually worse off, that Instagram and WhatsApp would not have been what they are today without Meta's help, that they were these small startups with very few employees. Facebook showered them with millions of dollars a year, potentially to the tune of well over billions of dollars now, and that these services could not have thrived to the point that they are today with billions of users. And that the email in which Zuckerberg says that Facebook is about connecting with friends and family, that these acquisitions were about taking out competition, that those are all irrelevant because intent doesn't matter. What matters is whether the market has less competition, and Facebook's argument is the market doesn't have less competition, that there's very much all this competition. Zoë Schiffer: And we are expecting Instagram founder, Kevin Systrom, to testify at some point, right? Paresh Dave: Yeah. He's on the witness list, as are some of the venture capitalists involved that supported Instagram and WhatsApp early on. Zoë Schiffer: We know that Mark Zuckerberg was trying to really do, it seemed, everything in his power to make sure this trial did not happen. He was reportedly trying to make a last-minute deal with President Trump, and he's been cozying up to Trump in recent months. What has that looked like? Paresh Dave: You could imagine he of course wants to make a deal, because we're talking about two important assets for Facebook. Imagine losing that. He's trying to do whatever he can to, one, just save face and not have to have his dirty laundry aired at a big trial, but also save these two pieces of his empire. Zuckerberg, we've seen him relax Facebook and Meta policies that Republicans have criticized. He got personally involved in settling this lawsuit that Trump had filed against the company after it had banned his account back in 2021. And then Meta, which hadn't donated to Trump's first inauguration fund, did donate to Trump's second inauguration fund back in January. He's made all these overtures to try to warm this relationship, and they met a few times in recent months, but it doesn't seem like any deal was reached since the trial began. Zoë Schiffer: Right. And even that lawsuit settlement … I've seen it described as a frivolous lawsuit. In some ways, you could categorize that as a campaign donation of sorts. That's really helpful context. We are going to take a short break, and we'll be right back. Yesterday was day one of the trial. The FTC gave its opening remarks and so did the company, and then the star witness, Mark Zuckerberg, took the stand. Let's start with what we learned from that testimony. Paresh Dave: The government has begun its questioning of Mark Zuckerberg, and a lot of this case potentially hinges on what Zuckerberg wrote in emails and memos many, many years ago. And the government has been trying to get Zuckerberg to say that Facebook was meant to be about connecting friends and family, and that Facebook made these acquisitions of WhatsApp and Instagram to take out competitors, that they were freaking out because the world was moving to apps, and Facebook's apps kind of sucked. People didn't want to use them. They were buggy, and Facebook was losing out in areas like photo sharing that Instagram was just starting to really not dominate, but really taking off. And then WhatsApp was doing great in messaging, and Facebook's messaging plan was kind of all over the place. And so they needed these acquisitions. They took out competitors so they didn't have to build things themselves. And then there's this one email in which Zuckerberg says it's better to buy than compete. And so, the FTC is trying to really pin down Zuckerberg on some of these emails and what his thinking was. That was sort of day one. Zoë Schiffer: That was Mark Zuckerberg's testimony. He's probably going to be called up again. Who else could be called up as a witness? What should we expect as the trial continues in the coming weeks? Paresh Dave: The exact schedule isn't public, but we expect executives from competitors, such as Google, YouTube, antitrust experts, professors, to talk about that personal social networking services market. And even, I think, a big appearance could be former Facebook executive, Sheryl Sandberg. Zoë Schiffer: I would be curious for her specifically to take the stand. I feel like this is kind of beside the point from the anticompetitive allegations, but Mark Zuckerberg has, well, in an effort, I think to ingratiate himself to Trump, rolled back a lot of the DEI efforts that Sheryl Sandberg kind of touted as core parts of her platform when she was at the company. And they've made a big show of still being friendly, but I would expect inside maybe Sheryl feels a bit different about Mark than she used to. Paresh Dave: And I'm sure she's been involved with the months of prep that Meta has reportedly been engaged in for this trial. You could expect that they will all be on the same page here. Zoë Schiffer: Right. Right. What happens if Meta is successful here, if Meta wins? Paresh Dave: Well, it kind of is that nothing changes. If Meta wins, they get to keep WhatsApp and Instagram. They don't have to sell them off. Does it really send a message that the FTC should sort of not pursue actions like this where they try to unwind acquisitions from super long ago? Probably not, because the FTC doesn't usually pursue cases like this anyway, so it's sort of the status quo continues. And for startups, maybe not so great because Meta is going to be as dominant as ever. Zoë Schiffer: What happens if the FTC wins? Paresh Dave: That's the big one. There would be a second trial to determine remedies. What are the penalties that Meta should face? Should they be forced to divest Instagram and WhatsApp? Should they be blocked from doing similar acquisitions in the future? Should they be forced to share data with startups or other competitors to increase competition in the social media market? Those are all possible remedies, and the judge would basically decide what to order at a second trial. Zoë Schiffer: It could be a while before we see anything happen with Instagram and WhatsApp even if Meta does lose. Paresh Dave: Exactly. And add in appeals if Meta loses. Certainly, they would appeal. If the FTC loses, unclear if they would appeal, but could be years more. Zoë Schiffer: What stands out to you in all of this? You've reported on Big Tech for a long time. There've been various attempts to break up companies in the past. I'm curious. What's the big top-line information for you right now? Paresh Dave: To me, it kind of underscores how important it is for the FTC and the DOJ, the Department of Justice, which are the two big antitrust regulators in the US at the federal level. It sort of underscores how important it is for them to review these deals before they are finalized and consummated. I know predicting the future isn't easy. It's a tough job for regulators to balance innovation and competition and what the future is going to look like, but there's plenty of antitrust experts who believe both are possible so that we're not in this position again where we're talking about deals from 13 years ago, 11 years ago. Imagine how hard it is for a company to plan into the future if the government all of a sudden can come in and say, "You need to break up these acquisitions that you did so long ago." And then on top of that, how fast the tech industry moves. If the FTC's view of the world is to believe so many startups over the last decade could have existed or thrive that never did, it is just unimaginable in some ways. We need to get better at reviewing these deals ahead of time. Zoë Schiffer: I think that's really smart. And it's also true that Meta has done a lot to integrate the backends of these apps. It says it's to make it easier for people to talk between the different apps or view content between the different apps, but it also could have been a strategy to make unwinding these acquisitions incredibly difficult on a technical level. Paresh Dave: Absolutely. The timing when some of those moves were first announced was viewed as kind of suspicious because it was right around when these investigations into Meta and these cases started getting filed against Big Tech companies. Zoë Schiffer: We're going to take one more short break. And when we come back, we'll tell you what to check out on this week. Zoë Schiffer: Welcome back to Uncanny Valley . I'm Zoë Schiffer, WIRED's director of business and industry. I'm joined today by WIRED senior writer Paresh Dave. Before we go, Paresh, can you tell our listeners about what they have to read on today other than the stories we mentioned in this episode already? Paresh Dave: Yes. Smishing Triad, the scam group stealing the world's riches. Zoë Schiffer: Is Smishing a phishing variant? Paresh Dave: It's a combination of phishing with SMS. Smishing, yes. Zoë Schiffer: Smishing. Got it, got it, got it. Paresh Dave: I'm sure we've all gotten those text messages about, "You got to pay this toll road fee," or some parcel can't be delivered properly. Very annoying. I still get them all the time. I don't know why our phones can't stop this, but this story by our colleague, Matt Burgess, talks about how a lot of these messages, which are called sort of smishing messages, originate from this group of cyber criminals that is actually constantly improving their scamming software. The cybersecurity does not have the upper hand here. And my takeaway was we are going to get more and more of these messages before it gets better. And this article is part of a WIRED series, Guide to the Most Dangerous Hackers You've Never Heard Of. And this is dangerous, right? There are people who type in their credit card numbers in reply to these text messages and get all their money stolen. It's not great. Zoë Schiffer: I feel like after I started at WIRED, I started getting messages purporting to be from company executives asking me to input personal information, which was well timed because I had just started a new job. I was like, 'I don't know if they text me.' But no. Paresh Dave: Maybe it was our cybersecurity team testing us. I don't know. I had that too. Zoë Schiffer: They do that from time to time. Paresh Dave: And what about you, Zoë? What are you recommending this week? Zoë Schiffer: Well, in addition to your wonderful prewrite about the trial, which everyone should read and gives people kind of a good overview of what we should expect, we also published a piece just this morning by Caroline Haskins, another writer on the business desk at WIRED, about a New Mexico man who faces federal charges for allegedly setting fire to a Tesla showroom. This is part of the Tesla protest indictments that are happening. Pam Bondi, the attorney general, and Trump and Elon Musk have all called for the people who are engaged in violent acts against Tesla property to be charged with really, really serious crimes. And this is the second time that we know of that the FBI terrorism investigators have gotten involved in an investigation tied to the kind of public backlash against Elon Musk and Tesla in particular. Bondi said that the man in question would be going to prison for 20 years or more, even though he hasn't yet been convicted. We have a lot of detail on the allegations in the case, things that we found in the arrest warrant, and it's a really good kind of overview of what's happening on that. Paresh, thank you so much for joining me today. Paresh Dave: Thanks for having me. Zoë Schiffer: That's our show for today. We'll link to all the stories we spoke about in the show notes. Make sure to check out Thursday's episode of Uncanny Valley , which is all about surveillance technology, protests, and how to safely navigate physical and online spaces during this moment. If you liked what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with us for any questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Kyana Moghadam and Adriana Tapia produced this episode. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Pran Bandi was our New York Studio engineer. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Condé Nast Head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon. And Katie Drummond is WIRED's Global Editorial Director.
