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WIRED
17-04-2025
- Politics
- WIRED
How Americans Are Surveilled During Protests
Protesters rally in Manhattan to demand an end to cuts in science, research, education and other areas by the Trump administration on April 08, 2025 in New York City. Photo-Illustration: WIRED Staff; Photograph: Spencer Platt There have been a number of protests in the past few months pushing back against President Trump's most recent policy changes, and we're likely to see more. Today on the show, WIRED's senior editor of security and investigations, Andrew Couts, talks us through the technology being used by law enforcement to surveil protests, how surveillance tech has evolved over the years, and what it means for anyone taking to the streets or posting to social media to voice their concerns. Plus, we share WIRED tips on how to stay safe, should you choose to protest. You can follow Michael Calore on Bluesky at @snackfight, Lauren Goode on Bluesky at @laurengoode, and Andrew Couts on Bluesky at @couts. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. [Archival audio]: No justice, no peace. Ho ho. Trump and Musk have got to go. Michael Calore: People are taking to the streets to challenge President Donald Trump's most recent policy changes, some of which have been created with the aid of Elon Musk and his so-called Department of Government Efficiency. [Archival audio]: All 50 states saw these so-called hands-off rallies and so did a few cities in Europe. Michael Calore: The first hands-off protests occurred earlier this month. The Tesla Takedown demonstrations have been rolling for weeks and from the feel of it, we're looking at a summer full of protests. So today we're talking about the risks of being surveilled by law enforcement during protests. We'll talk about how surveillance tech is being used, how it's evolved over the years, and what it means for anyone taking to the streets or posting to social media to voice their concerns. This is WIRED's Uncanny Valley , a show about the people power and influence of Silicon Valley. I'm Michael Calore, Director of Consumer Tech and Culture here at WIRED. Lauren Goode: And I'm Lauren Goode. I'm a senior writer at WIRED. Michael Calore: Katie Drummond is out today, but we're joined by WIRED's Senior Editor of Security and Investigations, Andrew Couts. Andrew Couts: Thanks so much for having me. Michael Calore: So let's start by talking about what's going on right now. There are the hands-off protests, there are the Tesla Takedown protests. Are these related at all? Lauren Goode: The hands-off protests and the Tesla Takedown movement are not the same, but they are related. They're both in some way resisting some of the policies that Donald Trump has quickly enacted without congressional approval in the short time since he took office in January. Tesla Takedown is pegged directly at Elon Musk who has this official but unofficial role in Trump's administration as the leader of DOGE. We sometimes refer to him as the Buddy In Chief, and the idea there is to challenge Musk's power as one of the world's richest men by devaluing one of his most important businesses in the private sector, which is Tesla, whereas the hands-off protests are about all kinds of things. They're protesting the firing of federal workers, the overreaching and potentially unconstitutional immigration policies, threats to women's rights and LGBTQ rights, threats to social security, threats to healthcare. The list goes on. The idea is basically get your hands off my rights. Michael Calore: And how are the protests looking? Lauren Goode: They're fairly significant. Tesla Takedown is a grassroots movement that started outside of Tesla dealerships in showrooms back in February and has been happening on an ongoing basis and has gotten quite a bit of attention. Hands-off had its biggest day so far on April 5th I think, and organizers said that there were more 1,300 rallies of varying sizes across the United States on that Saturday. And if you haven't heard of these rallies or seen the sizes of the crowds that people like AOC and Bernie Sanders have been pulling in, then I would seriously question the media that you're consuming because this is really happening. Michael Calore: Yeah, there's been really striking footage of people walking in Manhattan and just wall to wall people down one of the major avenues just for like a mile. Lauren Goode: Right, and not AI generated. Michael Calore: The people who are out taking the streets and engaging in their constitutional right of free speech and assembly, what are they worried about? Lauren Goode: I can't speak for everyone and I want to toss this to Andrew because I think Andrew's going to give us the real meat here in terms of digital surveillance, but I would just say that I think with any protest, even before we all had smartphones and there were surveillance cameras everywhere on every street corner in every train station, you always had to weigh the risks of doing the surveilling as in being a watchdog of the powerful and questioning abuses of power and civil rights versus being surveilled at the same time you're doing it, but because we live in this digital world now, I think surveillance really is one of the biggest threats today. Andrew, do you want to say more about that? Andrew Couts: Yeah, I mean surveillance is just constant and we are all being surveilled constantly if you have a smartphone or just on the internet. So whether someone is being surveilled at a protest, the answer is a hundred percent yes, especially if they have their phone with them and there's obviously other types of surveillance, but I think one of the things that you have to think about if you're going to engage in any type of protest and engage in your first amendment right to speak out against whatever you want to speak out against is that it's not just what's happening at the protest that matters, it's also the constant surveillance that's happening of your social media feeds or any other types of publishing you might do online. You really need to be thinking about your entire life and your entire data footprint and how that's going to be contextualized within you being at a protest. The other thing I'd be worried about is bad actors or anybody committing crimes while you're at that protest, there's a difference between going and exercising your constitutional rights and committing crimes. And I think these days those two get conflated a lot, especially after the 2020 protests where there's a lot of vandalism and violence and the protesters and the people committing crimes get all lumped together and it's very easy to lump people together these days, and I feel like that's happening on an official level in terms of immigration right now with the Department of Justice, the state Department categorizing anybody who they deem as a problematic as either a criminal outright, they'll say that or just canceling visas because somebody spoke out against the war in Gaza. These things are all getting conflated, and so you don't necessarily have power over how you're going to be perceived if you go to a protest and something happens or somebody just decides to characterize that activity in a way that's inaccurate but is potentially consequential for your life. Michael Calore: And to get into how exactly that conflation happens, I want to talk a little bit about how devices and certain signals on social media are used in order to identify you and identify you as a certain type of person or a person who was somewhere. So let's talk specifically about the phone for a minute. What specifically does the phone do to identify you? Andrew Couts: So there's a few ways. The first is even if you had no apps on your phone except for the phone app basically, probably even not then, if you just have the device with you and it's powered on your phone is going to be pinging the nearby cell towers, it's going to ping whatever the tower is that has the highest signal that's close to you and that power is going to be collecting your device ID and the time and date when your phone pinged the tower. And so that information can easily be obtained by police with subpoenas and anything to get just whatever devices were pinging a specific tower. So that's one way. The other way is through the apps on your phone. And so we've done a ton of reporting at WIRED about the ways in which advertising data, which can be collected in a few different ways, but is often collected through developer kits or SDKs, and these can often include very, very precise location data down to which parking spot you parked your car in front of a Home Depot or something. It can be extremely precise and it's constant. And so as long as your phone is on and is communicating with any server that's connected to an SDK on whatever random apps on your phone, that data is then being backing up and used typically to serve you ads, but it can also be purchased by governments, it can be purchased by police departments or anybody, me or you, if you have the money to buy that data and you can see exactly where someone was at a specific time or at least you can see where the device was. And so it's not too difficult to kind of figure out where somebody was at any certain time if you have your device. And so that's one of the main reasons that having a phone with you at a protest, you got to make that decision about whether that's the best choice. Michael Calore: Right. The idea is that as you move around in the world, if law enforcement wants to sort of draw any sort of conclusions about what kind of person you are and who you hang out with and what sorts of places you go, it's relatively easy for them to do so. Andrew Couts: Yeah, absolutely. And the fact is that they're not going to just be using one or the other. They're going to be using basically every tool available to them. So that can include other people's social media posts that show you in photographs or videos. It's going to be police body cameras, it's going to be your own social media posts or statements saying that you were at a certain place at a certain time, and so it's all going to be used together to show like, yes, this person was at X place at X time. Lauren Goode: What is your advice then for sharing the social media from a protest, particularly since social media can be an important tool for getting a message out or letting people know there is a rally happening? Andrew Couts: When making these decisions, it's really depends on your risk threshold. I think if you are really concerned about your safety and maybe your immigration status or your ability to live freely in the United States, I would definitely limit your exposure to other people's social media posts, meaning wear a mask if you're able to, remove any identifying features that you can cover up or make sure you don't have your name on your shirt or anything like that. And definitely don't post to your own social media about the protest if you're really concerned about that. Not everybody's risk levels are going to be the same though. Maybe getting the word out is the most important thing to you, maybe that's your job, but it is definitely something to factor in that you are almost certainly going to be subjected to other people's video and photos and you need to take that into consideration before you decide to go to a protest or how you decide to conduct yourself there. Michael Calore: So if we can assume that what you're doing online and not only moving around in the world, but the things that you're doing online are being monitored, then what about your private conversations? What about if you're using Twitter DMs or if you're on Facebook and you're private messaging with people on Facebook? Lauren Goode: Or WhatsApp or any of the Facebook-owned apps? Michael Calore: Yeah, sure. Is it possible for those types of things to also be exposed through like a subpoena? Basically my question here is are tech companies protecting us in any way against governments prying into our DMs? Andrew Couts: So there's a difference between active surveillance and passive surveillance, especially when we're talking about social media. There are companies that are constantly collecting everything that is posted publicly online about a particular keyword or a hashtag or anything like that. So anytime you're posting about a certain protest or a certain political thing, you might be getting subjected to some kind of surveillance there, but it's very passive. You're part of many people who are talking about a thing presumably, and it's not targeted at you. Then there's active surveillance where you are a subject of an investigation or you're a person of interest to authorities, and that can be much more invasive. So if somebody suspects that you say caught a car on fire at a protest, you may be subjected to subpoenas or your communications may be subjected to subpoenas or warrants, search warrants, and the sky's the limit on how much the police are going to be able to get about your communications if you are subjected to a police investigation or some other government investigation. So those might not be subjected to it because those messages are much more limited in their availability. So that's going to be a big difference in terms of whether you're just at a protest, nothing has happened, you're just posting about stuff on social media that's just going to be probably passively surveilled in one degree or another. If you're subject to an active investigation, that's a much more serious type of surveillance and you're in a much more serious situation. Michael Calore: So there are several companies in Silicon Valley that specialize in surveillance technology. They basically make products that law enforcement and governments can use to surveil people. So I think we should identify some of them. Who are the big names here? Lauren Goode: Well, there are some companies that are specifically in data intelligence, and I think the Silicon Valley company that comes to mind for most people is Palantir. Palantir is building ICE's case management software. That's just one example. There's also Clearview AI, which is a facial recognition company, and then there are data aggregators like Data Miner, and then of course there's the whole network of other tech companies too, whether they're chip makers like Nvidia or Intel or they're cloud service providers like Amazon that directly or indirectly power some of the systems that governments around the world would use in their surveillance technology, if you want to call it a surveillance technology, but there are different contexts for all of these too. For example, Andrew, one of the things that you mentioned in your video series Incognito Mode is you call out Data Miner, but you also say, "But as a journalist I've used that too." Andrew Couts: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of overlap with what reporters do, what journalists do, and what other types of investigators do. You're trying to get the information and connect dots and try to see what you can prove. And so the motivation or the end product of that is going to be very different depending on what your job is. The thing, I think anybody using them regardless of why is just how powerful they are and how much data we're all producing all the time. And I think Data Miner is a good example. It's really one of the main ways that social media is surveilled, and I think when we're talking about social media, we're not just talking about X and Instagram and TikTok, we're talking about all of those plus Reddit forums, everything where there's user participation online is often getting sucked up into these tools as long as those posts are publicly available. A lot of these companies, they're now using AI to perform additional data analysis, at least on these conversations that are happening online and kind of flagging things to say, "This looks like it's maybe a threat," or, "This looks like it maybe falls into whatever parameters that an investigator of any type wants to look into." And so we're taking the human element out of it so it's not just some guy watching your Bluesky feed, it is a computer watching everybody's Bluesky feed and then using AI to flag that for human beings who can then maybe look into it further. It's happening constantly. We just have to assume everything you post, even if you delete it, whatever, it's all being vacuumed up into these big data tools and then potentially used by authorities in whatever way they're going to use them. And I think the biggest change from say the 2020 protests is we don't know how they're going to be used, what the authorities are going to be going after, what they could go after in a year from now. And so when we're talking about assessing our own personal risks, that has to be at the forefront of it is that we don't know what's going to matter or what's going to be a problem or what's going to even be a crime within the near future. Michael Calore: All right, that feels like a good place to take a break. We'll be right back. Okay, let's go back in time a little bit about five years ago to be exact. It's May 2020 and we're in the first year of the pandemic and George Floyd has been murdered by police in Minneapolis. This sparks nationwide an international protest. It also sparked a huge conversation about surveillance technology and how it was being used to monitor protesters. And Andrew, you wrote a story around this time about how hundreds of protesters in New York were arrested and eventually won a landmark settlement against the city of New York. Can you tell us about it and where the surveillance tech came in? Andrew Couts: Yeah, so this is an interesting case where the police body cam footage was ultimately used against the police department in the form of a lawsuit because the plaintiffs in this case and their legal team were able to gather, I think around 6,300 videos from protests around the New York City and use the body cam footage to document instances of police abuse in various ways against the protesters. And so they were able to win millions of dollars by doing this, and they were using the body cam footage that the police were capturing themselves. This is one instance where the system worked how it was supposed to in certain ways. They also used a tool that allowed them to go through this many, many hours of footage to be able to pinpoint instances of police use of force, use of pepper spray, other types of police infractions against the protesters. So it was really an interesting use of surveillance technology used against the police themselves as well as custom big data tools that are able to make sense of all this data because that's a lot of times when we're talking about surveilling protests, we're talking about just massive, massive amounts of data and the data doesn't matter unless you're able to make some sense of it. And so I think the tools that are used to analyze big batches of data are just as important as the tools capturing the activity or the speech or whatever it is themselves. Michael Calore: Back at the time of the 2020 protests, one of the tools that was used to identify who was in a specific location was a geofence warrant. How have geofence warrants evolved since 2020? Andrew Couts: First, let's just start with what a geofence warrant is. A geofence warrant essentially allows law enforcement to go to a tech company and ask for every device that was in a specific location and give us all the devices that were in that location at a specific time. Now, very often police departments would go to Google for this because Google's apps are on so many people's phones or Google makes people's phones, and so they're going to have the most data. They're going to probably get something on every single person who had a phone in that location, in that geofence area. Google has since said that it's no longer going to provide information that way. That doesn't mean police aren't going to still be able to get that data in some form or another, but Google isn't going to just hand over this big batch of data the way that it used to. And so that's one big change. They can also go to another company, they can go to TikTok, they can go to whatever. That said, there's been a couple of changes on the legal front as well. Last year there were two court rulings, one in the Fourth Circuit and one in the Fifth Circuit specifically about geofence warrants. And these court rulings looked almost identical from the beginning of the case, but the rulings were completely the opposite. So essentially the Fourth Circuit ruled that a geofence warrant, it doesn't constitute a search in the way that the fourth Amendment requires. The Fifth Circuit ruled that it does. Michael Calore: And as of April, the Fourth Circuit Court is actively reconsidering its stance on geofence warrants. So there's still more to come, right? Andrew Couts: There's still a lot of ambiguity around it and the changes that Google made definitely impacted police ability to get that information in such a clean one-shot way, but they're still happening. Michael Calore: What if I'm just walking by a protest going from one bus stop to another or getting a bagel? Do I get trapped in the circle that they've drawn on the map? Andrew Couts: Yeah, if you're there at the specific timeframe that the police have stipulated in their geofence warrant, then yeah, you would. Michael Calore: That's super reassuring. So we've talked a lot about police, specifically law enforcement and cities, but also the US government is collecting this information and analyzing the data that they're getting. What agencies are using these technologies to surveil people? Andrew Couts: So we know for certain that the FBI is going to be collecting data for national security purposes. We're likely seeing Department of Homeland Security collecting a lot of data. Customs and border protection are using social media surveillance. ICE is using social media surveillance. At this point, I think you just have to assume all of them are. I mean, part of the capitalism of it all is that these companies are competing and that means prices get lower. And so it's not just one company that's offering it. It's multiple companies that are offering different surveillance platforms or technologies. And so it gets cheaper for governments to get it, and then at some point it's going to make a lot more sense for a certain agency to have it, even if five, 10 years ago they wouldn't have had it. Michael Calore: Okay, let's take another break and then come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley . Okay, let's talk now about what our listeners can do if they want to go and protest out in the streets or if they want to tweet through it, if they want to express themselves online, what measures should they take to protect themselves if they're worried about surveillance and if they feel as though they would not want to share as much information as we now know law enforcement and the government can collect on them? Now, Lauren, you co-authored a piece a few years ago and then just recently updated it with advice for people to go out and protest safely. And I know we have a few different guides on WIRED that people can read, but let's talk through some of the high-level stuff here. This question is for both of you, what are the top things that you would recommend for people who want to go out and protest in person? Andrew Couts: I think the top thing I would consider is whether you should bring your phone with you or not or potentially put it in a Faraday bag, which can block all signals to and from the device and limit that surveillance. That's going to be one of the greatest sources of data for anybody who wants to investigate anyone who's at a specific protest. Your phone is a surveillance machine. The best thing you can do is to throw it in the sea if you want to protect your privacy overall, but that's not practical, so consider leaving it at home. I would also be really careful about what you're posting online. If you're serious about an issue, avoid making flippant jokes that are going to be misconstrued by prosecutors basically. And don't joke about spray-painting Tesla's. Don't joke about committing crimes of any kind. Don't joke about engaging in violence and because that will be used against you if something happens and you find yourself under arrest. Michael Calore: Would you recommend that people turn off biometrics on their phone? That's a tip I see a lot. Lauren Goode: Yeah, that's one of our biggest pieces of advice. Turn off your face ID. Michael Calore: Face ID. Lauren Goode: What do they call it on the Google phone? Michael Calore: They call it fingerprint detection. Lauren Goode: Fingerprint. Sure. The idea being that if you are approached by authorities, and this goes for if you're even traveling through an airport by the way, and you're concerned that you might be detained, the idea is that someone could basically hold the phone up to your face or force you to unlock it versus using a numeric passcode. Michael Calore: Okay, and what stops somebody from holding up your phone and saying, "Plug in your passcode"? Andrew Couts: You can also just say, "I am exercising my right to remain silent," and you can say, "I'm exercising my Fifth Amendment rights." That's the law, which that advice actually stems is because police can't tell you to turn over evidence against yourself, which is ostensibly what a password is if they go in your phone and find something there. I think that advice is especially important. You mentioned airports, but the ACLU has pointed out the so-called a hundred-mile zone, which is a hundred miles from any US border or any ocean where ICE and other immigration authorities can basically just search anybody for any reason. You just have to be a much more cognizant of that. And if you're in the US on a visa, I'd be really, really careful about that because we've seen people who are here perfectly legally, and then their visas get just canceled. So if for some reason you're at a protest that is deemed not within the Trump administration's okay list, you might find yourself just automatically getting your visa canceled or anything like that if you're going to a protest. So I would just add being realistic about your own personal risk thresholds and what personal risks you probably face. The answer to that is to not go, and that's also very problematic because then you are limiting your First Amendment rights yourself and it's the chilling effect, but you have to balance those two things out. We're in kind of no man's land at the moment, and so you have to be really realistic about what makes sense for your own personal life. Michael Calore: So Lauren, what are some of the other things that you would recommend people do to stay safe if they want to go out and protest? Lauren Goode: Well, our guide recommends that you don't go alone. So traveling groups. I would also throw in there avoid taking your own car. Not only is your license plate likely to be scanned, but in terms of the location of your vehicle can be pinpointed specifically to a parking spot. Also, for whatever reason, you have to get out of there sort of quickly, having to get to your car and possibly get out of a log jam doesn't make any sense. So use public transit or traveling groups. Certainly back in 2020, we saw a lot of people wearing masks during the protests because it was covid. It was covid times. It's still not a bad idea to wear a mask, not just for health reasons, but because it obscures some of your face and therefore less of your face is being recorded and stored somewhere. This is kind of social media hygiene, which Andrew has given us a lot of great tips on, but don't capture people's faces in photos and videos. Be considerate. If you are going to take an image, maybe shoot from behind, you can't see people's faces. Try not to capture any sort of distinctive outfits, tattoos, something that could sort of set someone apart because you don't want to be a narc for them basically. Use encrypted messaging once you're on the ground. I mean, I think that these are all kind of standard good safety policies. If you suspect things are really going to get pretty hairy, it's a good idea to have important phone numbers written directly on your body. We sort of joke these days about how we don't remember anyone's phone numbers in our lives. They could be the most important person in your life. It could be your partner and you're like, "I don't know anyone's phone number because it's stored in my phone." But that can become a real issue if your stuff has been confiscated and you've been detained or arrested. A couple other things. Keep in mind the ACLU says you can protest at government buildings, but you should maybe try to stick to traditional public grounds like public streets and the sidewalks outside of government buildings. Don't block access to a government building if you're protesting. Don't do what January six protesters did, and Andrew mentioned your immigration status as well. But basically you really do have to consider the risks quite carefully if you are someone who is here on any kind of student visa or any kind of non-immigrant visa like an H-B or an O-I. I spoke to an immigration attorney who just said, really think twice about going. And she said, "It pains me not to tell people to exercise their First Amendment rights, but you're much more vulnerable in that situation and the risks are much higher for you." Michael Calore: Okay, well, this is all very good advice and I would just add to all of that hydrate, because it's going to be a very long summer and it's going to be very hot summer, and you need to make sure that you don't pass out while you're out there. Lauren Goode: That's good advice. Michael Calore: Andrew, thanks for joining us today for this conversation. It was filled with a lot of great info. Thank you. Lauren Goode: Thanks, Andrew. Andrew Couts: Thanks so much for having me. Michael Calore: And of course, everybody should check out Andrew's YouTube series on WIRED's channel. It is called Incognito Mode, and it's all about surveillance and it's all about digital privacy. Thanks for listening to Uncanny Valley . If you liked what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with us with any questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Today's show is produced by Kyana Moghadam. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Page Oamek fact checked this episode. Jordan Bell is our executive producer, Katie Drummond is WIRED's Global Editorial Director, and Chris Bannon is the Head of Global Audio.
WIRED
20-03-2025
- Entertainment
- WIRED
Who's Elon Musk's Biggest Fan? His Mom
Photo-Illustration: WIRED Staff; Photograph:If you buy something using links in our stories, we may earn a commission. This helps support our journalism. Learn more. Please also consider subscribing to WIRED She sits in on his business meetings, defends him on X, and travels to give talks about how she raised him, the richest man in the world—but who is Elon Musk's mother? Today on the show, we learn all about the model, influencer, and author, Maye Musk, while dissecting her most recent travels to China and her possible influence on foreign politics. You can follow Michael Calore on Bluesky at @snackfight, Lauren Goode on Bluesky at @laurengoode, and Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Michael Calore: Hey, Zoë, what does your mom call you? Zoë Schiffer: I feel like I'll erode a lot of my credibility if I tell you, so I'm just going to say that a lot of people call me Zoe for short. Michael Calore: Okay. Zoë Schiffer: Which is what my name looks like. Michael Calore: If you don't have the umlaut over the E, it just looks like Zoe? Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, because it doesn't have the Y so people always get confused. I'm like, "Oh, no, my parents call me Zoe. Don't worry about it." Lauren Goode: Oh. Right, right. Like Zooey Deschanel, she has the Y, right? Yeah, okay. Michael Calore: But she's Zooey. Lauren Goode: I never thought about that before. Michael Calore: Isn't she? Isn't she Zooey? Lauren Goode: No, she's Zooey. Zoë Schiffer: Like Franny and Zooey is spelled Zooey but it's Zooey, Franny and Zooey. Anyway, Mike, what do your parents, what did they call you when you were little? Lauren Goode: She's deflecting really hard. She doesn't want to tell us the real nickname. Zoë Schiffer: I can't. I just feel like I already have too much imposter syndrome. Michael Calore: For a very long time, my mother referred to me by my full name, Michael, and so did my father. Lauren Goode: What's your middle name? Michael Calore: Seth. Lauren Goode: Did they call you Michael Seth? Michael Calore: On very, very rare occasions. Zoë Schiffer: Seth really could be your first name, too. I feel like that feels like that almost fits. Lauren Goode: Oh, yeah. You're a Seth. Michael Calore: Do I present as Seth? Zoë Schiffer: A little bit. Seth rising, if you will. Michael Calore: Okay. Lauren Goode: Yeah. Seth goes to a lot of live music shows. Yeah. Michael Calore: Seth's a guy, you know? What about you, Lauren? Lauren Goode: My name is Lauren Goode. Michael Calore: Yes. Lauren Goode: I have a hard time pronouncing my name. You know this from years of doing podcasts with me. Whenever it comes to that moment of I'm Lauren Goode. Michael Calore: Yeah. Lauren Goode: Sometimes when I got to order coffee, they ask for my name, they end up writing it M because I struggle to say the L. I feel like I should just change my name. Michael Calore: What do you think your psyche is telling you? Lauren Goode: When I was a kid, sometimes my mom called me Wren. Zoë Schiffer: Oh. Lauren Goode: I feel like I should be a Wren. Zoë Schiffer: I really like that. I think that's a sweet name. Michael Calore: Wren. Zoë Schiffer: I feel if were at the Joe Rogan Podcast, which we're all devout listeners of, we would be asking Grok right now what your name should be, and then you would be called that for the rest of time. Lauren Goode: Or just be Wren. But the thing with Wren Goode is it's two really hard single-syllable words. Michael Calore: That's true. Zoë Schiffer: What's your middle name? Lauren Goode: Margaret. Michael Calore: It's like a spondee, though, Wren Goode. Lauren Goode: Wren Goode, it is kind of cool. Wren Margaret. Maybe I should just be Wren Margaret. Now if anyone really wants to dox me. Would you like my social security number? They're all going to be public soon anyway. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. Let's talk through your birthday. Lauren Goode: Right. Some 19-year-old currently has my social security number, so great. Michael Calore: Okay. Well, here is a more topical question. What do you think Elon Musk's mom calls him? Zoë Schiffer: Little E. Lauren Goode: Oh. I don't know. Maybe? Zoë Schiffer: He did actually take over the @E handle shortly before he bought Twitter. A little scoop for you. I don't know what nickname she calls him, but I do think it's funny that she's been like, "It's insulting to call him a billionaire. He is the genius of the world and should be recognized as such." Michael Calore: That's some strong mom energy. This is WIRED's Uncanny Valley, a show about the people, power, and influence of Silicon Valley. Today we're talking about Maye Musk. She's a model, influencer, and an author of the memoir A Woman Makes a Plan. She's been traveling to some notable places this year to promote her work and to rep her son, Elon Musk. Who is Maye Musk? What do you need to know about her? And how much influence does she currently have over US politics? I am Michael Seth Calore, director of consumer tech and culture here at WIRED. Lauren Goode: I'm Wren Goode, senior writer at WIRED. Oh, that was easy. Michael Calore: Yeah. Zoë Schiffer: I'm Zoë Schiffer, WIRED's director of business and industry. Michael Calore: With an umlaut. Zoë Schiffer: With an umlaut. I almost said Zoe and I was like it's too many bits for us. Michael Calore: Let's get started with the big question. Who is Maye Musk? Lauren Goode: Maye is an entrepreneur, and a model, and a dietician, and an author in her own right. I think she's probably best well-known for being a model. She's been a model from a young age and continues to model into her late 70s. She's also the author of a book called A Woman Makes a Plan. This came out in 2019, but it continues to be popular particularly because it's popular in China, where it was translated into Chinese the year after it came out. She was born in Canada. She was raised mostly in South Africa, which is where she started modeling. She was 15 then, and she was a finalist in the Miss South Africa contest. Michael Calore: Hey, mazel tov. Lauren Goode: Yeah. This is also where she got married, she had kids, and then divorced. She's got three kids. In addition to Elon, there's Kimbal, who I think a lot of people have also heard of, and Tosca. It sounds like a cookie, doesn't it? I'd love some Tosca with my tea. Zoë Schiffer: She would never have a cookie. Her mom talks constantly about no cookies. Michael Calore: Yeah. Lauren Goode: Wow. Fascinating. She ended up moving to California in 1996, when her two sons started the software company that gave Elon his start. It was called Zip2. Now she bounces around the world. She's a citizen of the world, this is partly because of Elon and partly it's because it's where her work takes her. One note that's interesting about her modeling career is that she's become an advocate or representation for people of all ages and sizes. The fact that she's an older woman and still has these makeup and beauty product endorsements says a lot about her durability as an entrepreneur and as a model. In 2022, she was also the oldest woman to appear on the cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition. Zoë Schiffer: It was a good cover. Lauren Goode: Which I think then, she was later maybe surpassed by Martha Stewart. Michael Calore: Oh, really? Zoë Schiffer: Interesting. Lauren Goode: Martha Stewart was 81- Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh. Lauren Goode: ... when she graced the cover of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue. Zoë Schiffer: The term dietician always gives me pause. What is ... Lauren Goode: That's a really good question about her dietician career, Zoë. She studied nutrition, or she calls it dietetics, from a young age. But it was after she got divorced, she was around 31, that's when she had to build up her own practice. She has said that she was, at one point, seeing up to 25 patients or clients a day while modeling. Zoë, would you call this extremely hardcore? Zoë Schiffer: I would say that's extremely hardcore. Lauren Goode: These days, she's doing a lot of speaking engagements that are often geared towards women. Women's empowerment, beauty, health. And also, parenting, because we're going to keep coming back to this, she has a very famous son. Michael Calore: Yes, she does. We all know about Elon's influence and how important he is in our world, and now in the larger world of the United States government and the world stage. But what is Maye's own personal influence? How does she move the needle around the world? Zoë Schiffer: She has a really big social presence. I think she's got about 1.5 million followers on Instagram, where she posts a lot about her family. I think one recent video, the voiceover was like, "As the mother of three billionaires." I was like, okay. But she also has 1.4 million followers on Twitter. And as Lauren mentioned, she's got her book, she's a model. She's an influencer in China, which we can get into later. Her profile has grown alongside Elon's. Michael Calore: Right. She's been in the news lately for a lot of reasons and we'll get into those later, as you mentioned. One of the most obvious is that she is Elon Musk's mother and Elon Musk has been in the news, so she has also been in the news, too. Let's talk about the two of them and what their relationship is like. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. By all accounts, Lauren, I'm curious to get your take, but it seems like they have a pretty tight relationship. Elon famously is estranged from his father, Maye's ex-husband. When I was reporting my book about Elon Musk's acquisition of Twitter, I would talk to executives who would say, "Yeah, we sat down for this very high level meeting, and inexplicably Elon had brought his mom along." Everyone was like, "What is she doing here?" She would pipe in and give her suggestions. People found it to be pretty odd, according to the conversations that I had with them. She also is known for going head-to-head with reporters and other people online who are critical of her son. One recent example was that CNN did a panel after Elon Musk appeared at Trump's inauguration in January. Then implied that he had done a Nazi-like salute. Maye was out there, suggesting that he'd simply sue CNN for that coverage. Lauren Goode: Yeah. There was this moment back in 2022 when it was shortly after Elon had announced the Twitter acquisition. His tweets started getting a little bit bizarre. Because a lot of these business negotiations here happening out in public. As a result, people were responding to his tweets. One of his crusades was against spambots. Maye took it upon herself to start calling people out on Twitter who she identified to be spambots or in other ways disingenuous. She was using the hashtag #nasty. She would put nasty, nasty. At one point she quote-tweeted someone and she said, "Is this a bot or a troll? 16 followers, nearly 2000 likes, makes you think. #nastynasty." She waged this one-woman campaign to be like, "Hey, one, I'm highlighting spam on the platform, which is something that my son is currently investigating. Two, stop picking on Elon." Michael Calore: Yeah. Zoë Schiffer: I find this so relatable. She's just being such a mom. But the, "No matter how rich and influential my son is, I'm still going to be out there defending him to critics on Twitter, including to accounts that might be bots and have 16 followers," is so funny. I'm like, "Yeah. Me, too, girl." Michael Calore: I do think it's kind of sweet, the way that they pay attention to each other a lot in public. They show up to events together. She's a model, she's a very glamorous dresser. She always appears very well put together. And she dresses up, I would say better than he does. Zoë Schiffer: Not hard. Michael Calore: Absolutely no shade at all. I'm wearing a camo hat right now and I have an unbuttoned flannel over a branded T-shirt. But she does, she dresses up very well. They appear together at events. At galas, at dinners, and things like that, in formal wear. Lauren Goode: Right. Michael Calore: I think it's kind of sweet. Zoë Schiffer: Totally. Lauren Goode: This is actually another great anecdote from Issacson's book, which is that they went to the Met Gala. Zoë Schiffer: Right. Lauren Goode: Which is, of course, run by our boss here at Conde Nast, Anna Wintour. All of us, of course, have been invited to the Met Gala, we just haven't been able to make it yet. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, a conflict. Lauren Goode: Yes. Scheduling conflicts. Elon and Maye were invited. Apparently he got out of a meeting at about 9:00 PM, but they had to show up at the Met Gala. Zoë Schiffer: Wow. Well, this is the sweet segment of the show. I feel like we have to talk about some of the potential issues with Maye Musk's profile around the world. But let it be said that we had a whole segment where we talked about how charming it is that they love each other apparently. Michael Calore: Yes. Yeah. On that note, let's all hold onto those feelings while we take a break, and we'll come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. Maye Musk has been traveling all over the world. Most notably, she's been going to places like China and the United Arab Emirates. Why is she going to these places? Lauren Goode: Well, Maye Musk is in the business of being Maye Musk. She's known as a silver-haired influencer in China. In China in particular, she's got a lot of product endorsement ties. Makeup, massagers, clothing. She does a lot of speaking engagements. I think in order to really under her presence there, we should take a look at this ad that ran sometime in 2024. She's tied to a brand called Babycare. [Archival audio]: (Singing) I look up and think about the new. Lauren Goode: The rest of the ad is in Mandarin, but there are English subtitles. [Archival audio]: (Ad playing in Mandarin) Lauren Goode: She's asking, "How do you raise successful kids?" It's Maye, just cruising through the streets, looking as elegant as ever. With beautiful scenery of children playing in the street and everything. Zoë Schiffer: Wow. Lauren Goode: There's a little girl dancing. It's very cute. Zoë Schiffer: Wait, I love this ad. Michael Calore: The messaging here is that you shouldn't tell kids to be quiet, and sit down and do what they're told. You should tell them to be loud. You should tell them to get up and run. You should tell them to disobey authority. To be themselves. Zoë Schiffer: Let kids grow up free. Lauren Goode: Free-range kids. Zoë Schiffer: Don't obey the rules. [Archival audio]: (Ad playing in Mandarin) Lauren Goode: What's interesting about this too, is that in Issacson's biography of Musk, he writes about how Maye herself grew up where her parents took a lot of risks. They are free-range children. It is in their family DNA in a sense, to have these risk-taking, courageous kids. Zoë Schiffer: Not to make this all about my kids always, but I tend to raise very free kids, let them do what they want within the bounds of reason. The result is that my three-year-old hasn't washed her hair in four weeks. I don't know if I'm benefiting in the way that Maye Musk seems to believe is possible. Michael Calore: If you're watching Chinese television, you'll see this ad. You'll have very warm and affection feelings toward Maye Musk and her famous children. Joking aside, she is an influential person in China. Why does that influence concern some? Zoë Schiffer: We're just at a very interesting moment with diplomatic relations with China. We're in a Cold War, some have called it, related to AI and it raises a number of concerns. For example, foreign governments could conceivably use Maye Musk as a way to try to get close to Elon, and thereby Trump, almost to exert control on the current administration. That's just something to pay attention to. There's fears that her phone could be hacked while she is there. Michael Calore: Oh. Zoë Schiffer: She was riding on Air Force One recently. While these are purely theoretical, the stakes are pretty high. There's worry that foreign governments could try and curry favor with her by asking her to model or be brand ambassadors for various companies. There's, again, no evidence that this has happened with her current relationships with brands overseas, but something to pay attention to. They could retaliate if the US government does something they don't like, by pulling her books of shelves or canceling contracts. Then there's this more far-fetched, but very problematic issue, which is in a worse case scenario where China was retaliating against the US for something that the US or Trump did, if Maye Musk was in China during that time, could they physically hold her there? China is known for going tit-for-tat. If a foreign government does something that China doesn't like, China will retaliate in kind. We have Marco Rubio in the administration. He is a serious China hawk. I think the fear is that the Trump Administration would do something that China doesn't like and that Maye Musk could be in the middle of this national security fiasco. Lauren Goode: Right. It's not clear how much money she's actually making from this incredible influence that she has in China. Nor does anyone think that she's getting money from the Chinese government directly, or anything like that. Zoë Schiffer: No. Lauren Goode: We know that she's been to China at least four times in late 2024, the New York Times did report that. She's promoting her makeup products. Presumably, she's still promoting her book or using that as leverage for her brand, and that sort of thing. It's more about that influence. In particular, when you think about Elon's business. China is a huge market for Tesla vehicles. Tesla's largest production factor is in Shanghai. Tesla also built a large battery factory last month in Shanghai. Last year, Tesla's China sales hit a record high. Nearly 37% of its cars were delivered to customers in China. That's more than 657,000 Tesla vehicles. Elon has very vested interest in the Chinese market, and I think people are looking at some of his mother's activities there, and looking at the importance of his business there, and just wondering if there's a line to be drawn between the two of them. When Maye was in China last fall, she wrote on X, "China is so advanced in roads, tunnels, buildings, infrastructure, and ports. I'm always impressed when I visit." Sure, you could be someone on vacation who's just, "Wow! I'm marveling at this new place that I'm in," right? Michael Calore: Weird flex, but okay. Lauren Goode: There also could be a lot of subtext there. Michael Calore: Yeah. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. I think, Lauren, your point brings up the larger issue, which is just we don't know, but there are possibilities of undue influence. I think the fact that it's not known and there's not a lot of controls in place. Normally, if someone who is close to an advisor of the president was traveling overseas, there would have been checks on their background, there would be investigations. It doesn't appear that those things have actually happened. There was a lot of security protocols that weren't followed. I think there's just, again, the possibility that something more nefarious could happen in the future. Michael Calore: Elon Musk has been able to sidestep a lot of the requirements for security clearance, simply because he's always taken on an advisory role in the US government, or as a contractor for the federal government. We would assume that his mother is not even anywhere on that map as well. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. Michael Calore: As far as getting a lot of scrutiny from security clearance people. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. We don't have any evidence that she's been through that process. Judging by how the DOGE employees went about entering government, which in many cases, they were up and working in government systems before having received security clearances, yeah, I think there's reason to be suspect that she was put under that microscope for that process. Michael Calore: When countries invite celebrities, people who have some sort of influence on the world stage, to come visit their country and hang out, and they wine them and dine them, there is some soft diplomacy happening. "We are going to invite you here, you're going to have a great time. You're going to go back home, you're going to tell everybody about how great of a time you had, how welcoming the people were. Wouldn't it be great if we were a little bit nicer to them?" We can see that being implied in a lot of the places that she's traveling, like China. She went to Kazakhstan recently to promote her book. Maye Musk has also gone to the UAE to speak and to make appearances there. You can see, if you're inviting a Maye Musk into your world, there are implications about wanting to reach out, wanting to have a better relationship with the United States, right? Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, for sure. She's not an ambassador in the official sense, but she's playing an influential role nonetheless in the United States' relationship with these foreign governments, just by simply going there and posting about it on social media. Lauren Goode: Totally. Yeah. In January, just before the inauguration, she did go to Dubai and she gave a talk. It was called How I Raised Three Amazing Children, Including the Richest Man in the World. Michael Calore: Oh. Lauren Goode: What an incredible flex. Michael Calore: Wow. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. Michael Calore: I was just going to say, I would have loved to have seen that talk. Zoë Schiffer: Unironic same. Michael Calore: Can we tell where Maye Musk is just being a supportive mom and spreading the gospel of Elon, and can we tell where she might be doing a little bit more than that? Lauren Goode: I tend to see Maye as a little bit of a Kris Jenner. Michael Calore: Ah. Lauren Goode: Her children are very famous, and she's clearly very supportive of their careers, and will defend them to the ends of the Earth. But also, she's an operator to the point where she has become her own really powerful and influential brand. There are probably a lot of ties behind the scenes that we don't have full access to. I think what everyone's going to be watching really closely is to see how those ties with China develop or evolve, and if there's any possibility that they could be exploited. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. I would just add to that, that as her influence has grown, she's using that influence to try and preserve Elon's reputation, to try and promote his business. Again, a Kris Jenner profile. She's not just doing that as a mom, she's also doing that as someone who's very invested in his tangible success it seems like. Michael Calore: Well, somebody's got to look out for him. Zoë Schiffer: So true. Michael Calore: Somebody really needs to step up and make sure that he remains a successful person. Zoë Schiffer: Right. Lauren Goode: I think that if Maye Musk ever shows up in the Oval Office and starts answering questions from reporters, then we'll have reached a new tipping point. Michael Calore: Do you think she'd sit on his shoulders? Zoë Schiffer: That would be really difficult. She looks really tall. Michael Calore: All right. Well, let's take another break and we'll come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. It's been a while since we have done an Overheard in Silicon Valley, so we're going to play that game this week. We're going to dish some buzz, and I only want good answers. Who wants to go first? Zoë, Lauren? Zoë Schiffer: Wait. I feel like you might have the best tea. You were at South by Southwest. Lauren Goode: Yeah. Zoë Schiffer: You must have overheard the craziest things. Michael Calore: Well, it's not necessarily a crazy overheard, but there were Waymos at South by Southwest this week. Zoë Schiffer: Wait. Is Waymo running there? Michael Calore: It is now, through the Uber app. Zoë Schiffer: Oh. Michael Calore: They partnered with Uber. Lauren Goode: Interesting. Michael Calore: When you're at South by Southwest for specific parts of Austin, you can request a Waymo through the Uber app. I did not do this because I needed to get where I was going in a quick manner and the wait time for a Waymo was around 20, 25 minutes. Zoë Schiffer: Oh, wow. Michael Calore: I just chose regular Ubers while I was there. But the company was offering rides, regularly priced rides, just like the Waymos are priced in other places where they operate through the Uber app. It was kind of interesting, kind of weird. I quizzed people about them all week when I was there, and people loved it. There were people obviously from all over the world there. Everybody was, "Oh, it was so easy and it was so nice. I was scared and I didn't know what to do, and the experience was really helpful. They hold your hands," and all this. Then the other question that I would ask people from Austin is if they were aware that the Tesla Robotaxi service is supposed to be launching in Austin in June. Because last year, Elon Musk showed off the new Tesla Robotaxi. He said that, as part of this car's release, they're going to be launching a robotaxi service for Tesla cars. Zoë Schiffer: Full self-driving, like Waymo-esque? Michael Calore: Yes. Not only will you be able to order a robotaxi to show up, a Tesla-branded robotaxi to show up, but you'll be able to, if you're a Tesla owner, put your Tesla into a pool so that your Tesla can drive around and offer people robotaxi rides while you're at the office, or sleeping, or whatever. Lauren Goode: Passive income. Michael Calore: Right. He has said multiple times that this is going to be launching in Austin, Texas in June. We're all like, "Okay." I was asking people in Austin, "Have you heard of this?" And nobody had heard of it. Lauren Goode: Huh. Zoë Schiffer: Well, he famously over-promises on the delivery date of certain things. Michael Calore: Yes. Zoë Schiffer: I feel like that's fair to say. Michael Calore: Yes. I think it will be a small miracle if there is one robotaxi ride in Austin at the very, very end of June this year. Lauren Goode: Wait. Can I share an overheard that is related to your experience at South by Southwest, Mike? Michael Calore: Yes. Lauren Goode: Someone who we work with sent me a video and said, "Check out Mike." It was you getting into a baby blue Cybertruck. Michael Calore: Yes. Lauren Goode: What was happening here? Michael Calore: We called a Lyft, and the Lyft that showed up was a Cybertruck. When it rolled up, the guy had a wrapper on it, it was baby blue. Zoë Schiffer: Wow. That is a shocking turn of events. Lauren Goode: You didn't know a Cybertruck was showing up? Michael Calore: No. No, we did not know. Lauren Goode: Oh my God, incredible. Michael Calore: Yeah, it was shocking. It was very shocking. I was like, "Well, we're getting in it," so we got in it. We asked him about it. He was a little chatty and he told us why he bought it. He drove it out from San Diego to Austin. I asked him if anybody had vandalized his car or defaced it and he said, "Yes, somebody drew a swastika on it and wrote Nazi." Then he wiped it off because of his baby blue wrap makes it so that you can just wipe off vandalism. Zoë Schiffer: Wow. Lauren Goode: Did that change the way he was feeling about his Cybertruck? Michael Calore: I don't think so. I think he's still proud of it and still likes it. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, I feel like you double-down if you're a Cybertruck owner. We had a recent incident earlier this week in Ventura, where a Cybertruck, I think the owner was attempting to launch a jet ski and the Cybertruck ended up in the water. Michael Calore: Oh, no. Zoë Schiffer: It was being towed out of the ocean. Lauren Goode: Oh, no! Michael Calore: Oh, no. Zoë Schiffer: In footage that was circulating on social media. Lauren Goode: When you say that, Zoë, about the Tesla being in the water and being towed out, I'm thinking of those duck boats in the Boston Harbor. Do you know what I'm talking about, Mike? Michael Calore: Did it float? Lauren Goode: Did it? Zoë Schiffer: It did not float. But we did just get a really old children's book about the duck boats in Boston. Lauren Goode: Oh. Zoë Schiffer: Okay, Lauren, what's your overheard? Lauren Goode: Well, I was going to talk about vibe coding in Silicon Valley, but now I feel like I want to keep consistent with your theme. Michael Calore: Oh, yes. Lauren Goode: Which is there's this little cottage industry popping up on Etsy, I noticed. If you type in just Rivian sticker, there are more than 1000 results that come up. It's basically the sticker for people who have a Tesla but wish they had a Rivian right now. Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh. Michael Calore: Oh, boy. Lauren Goode: A couple episodes ago, we talked about all of Elon's babies. Now we're talking about the woman who had Elon as a baby. We talked about how the status symbol is now having three kids and a Rivian. Now we're talking about Rivians again. Honestly, I think we're just living in a simulation. Zoë Schiffer: Okay, Elon. Lauren Goode: Right? I would be happy to talk to more people about the simulation. Some of the stickers say, "Only driving this until I get my Rivian. I identify as a Rivian. The Anti-Elon Tesla Club," that's a car magnet. "This Tesla does not endorse Musk." There's a, "Love the car, not the CEO." Yeah. If you're looking for a sticker that's pro-Rivian or anti-Tesla, there are a lot of options out there right now. Zoë Schiffer: Etsy has your back. Michael Calore: All right. That was some good overheard. Thank you. I feel so happy that we did that. I feel like a weight has been lifted off of my shoulders. Thanks for listening to another episode of Uncanny Valley. If you liked what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with us with any questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Today's show was produced by Kyana Moghadam. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Matt Giles fact-checked this episode. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Katie Drummond is WIRED's global editorial director. Chris Bannon is the head of global audio.
WIRED
06-03-2025
- Entertainment
- WIRED
A Look at a Very Silicon Valley Approach to Repopulation
On Uncanny Valley this week, our hosts talk about the pronatalism movement, and how the push to increase birth rates is trending among some of Silicon Valley's biggest and wealthiest names. Photo-Illustration:If you buy something using links in our stories, we may earn a commission. This helps support our journalism. Learn more. Please also consider subscribing to WIRED Silicon Valley is obsessed with solutionism. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that when it comes to a declining birth rate, some of the valley's elite have a clear answer: more babies at all costs. Today on the show, we talk about the pronatalism movement and how ideas around increasing birth rates are trending among some of the valley's biggest and wealthiest names. You can follow Michael Calore on Bluesky at @snackfight, Lauren Goode on Bluesky at @laurengoode, and Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Michael Calore: Zoë, you're here in the actual studio today, in San Francisco. Zoë Schiffer: I'm here, and Lauren is not, and then we'll be switching places starting next week. Lauren Goode: Oh, sadness. Although, we did have the quintessential San Francisco experience together, Zoë, which is that we had a burrito. Zoë Schiffer: We ate a burrito, and I took a Waymo to eat that burrito with you. So, I really, I did it all. That was a good time. Michael Calore: How many Cybertrucks have you seen? Zoë Schiffer: Honestly, I don't think I've seen a single Cybertruck. Michael Calore: Really? Zoë Schiffer: I don't think so. I will say, I've been on a screen for 20 hours a day, even in the car on the way to various places, I'm working. So, I wouldn't say, I haven't been searching for the Cybertruck. Michael Calore: I sit by the window here in the WIRED office, and when I look out the window, I look right on the Bay Bridge and I see Cybertrucks all day. Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh. Lauren Goode: It's almost like the Cybertrucks are just reproducing in real time. They're spawning, they're spawning more Cybertrucks. Is this the worst lead-in ever to this episode? Michael Calore: You know what? I will take it. Lauren Goode: All right. Michael Calore: I will absolutely take it. This is WIRED's Uncanny Valley , a show about the people, power, and influence of Silicon Valley. Today, we are talking about the pronatalism movement, and how the push to increase birth rates is trending among some of Silicon Valley's biggest and wealthiest names. We'll talk about some of the history behind pronatalism, who the big advocates are right now, and what it all points to. I'm Michael Calore, Director of Consumer Tech and Culture here at WIRED. Lauren Goode: I'm Lauren Goode, I'm a senior writer at WIRED. Zoë Schiffer: And I'm Zoë Schiffer, WIRED's Director of Business and Industry. Lauren Goode: So, a few weeks ago when we were talking about dating apps, I was like, oh no, you guys are going to be leaning so heavily on me because I think among us, I probably have had the most experience using dating apps, but now I feel like Mike, you and I are just going to be like, "So, Zoë, tell us what it's like to have babies." Zoë Schiffer: I do feel like I'm doing my part for the population decline. I've had two and I will not be having anymore, thank you. Michael Calore: And setting the scene here, Lauren and I are both child free. Lauren Goode: And Zoë is also now one of our big bosses at WIRED. So, I would just say in a normal setting, not a podcast setting, I might not sit across from her and say, "Tell me about your experience having babies and being a parent," but for the sake of the podcast. Zoë Schiffer: Lauren, we bring our whole selves to work, come on. Lauren Goode: Me too. Zoë Schiffer: And we're friends. Lauren Goode: Yeah, we're friends. Michael Calore: Well, to start the conversation, I think we should define what pronatalism is and who are the biggest supporters right now of this movement. Zoë Schiffer: I thought you were going to say, we're going to define what a baby is. It's like a small, bald human. Next question. OK, so pronatalism at its core is an ideology that promotes people having babies. And in Silicon Valley specifically, it's been linked to this preoccupation with population decline. The idea that people are not having enough babies to kind of replenish the population, and that it creates all sorts of economic problems down the road. Obviously, when we think about pronatalism, the first name that comes to my mind is, drum roll, please, Elon Musk. So, he has said very clearly that population collapse due to low birthrates is a bigger risk to civilization than global warming. He's called it, I think one of the biggest threats that humanity faces. And when we speak about someone doing their part, he has fathered 14 children. A new baby was literally just announced. The other name that comes to mind is Jeff Bezos, because he has also talked about low birthrates. Lauren Goode: Zoë, I think you forgot to mention a pretty well-known venture capitalist these days who's expressed some pronatalism remarks. Zoë Schiffer: Are we talking about Balaji? Lauren Goode: We are talking about the now Vice President of the United States. Zoë Schiffer: Oh, OK. Tell me more, tell me more. Lauren Goode: Well, JD Vance was a venture capitalist. I don't know if he still is because I don't think that you can be when you are also the Vice President of the United States, but he has made remarks about the Democratic Party being anti-family and anti-child and has suggested that the votes of people with children should count for more than those of non-parents. And these have been some pretty controversial statements that he's made. So, it would be a mischaracterization to just lump him in with the tech guys that we're talking about right now, but I think what we are going to talk about is this intersection of tech and politics and policy and culture. And JD Vance did happen to work in tech investments and now is one of the leaders of our government. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, this feels in line with his kind of childless cat lady type comments. Michael Calore: Yeah. So broadly, when we talk about people who support pronatalism and want human beings to reproduce at higher rates, they come at it from different angles. There's not just a capital P, pronatalism movement, there are different movements within the movement. What are some of the different sort of flavors of pronatalism? Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, so the effective altruists have a stance here. It's been kind of linked to the idea of longterm-ism, which is a set of concerns about protecting and improving future, and that there are steps we can take now to determine what that future is going to look like. So you can imagine that birth rates factor into that. Michael Calore: Right, if you're thinking about what the country looks like 50 years or 100 years from now, or not even the country, but the society and the planet looks like decades from now, then you have to consider how many people we're going to have. Zoë Schiffer: Exactly, yeah. And this is where I feel like pronatalism starts to get into thornier issues. When you're talking about what the population should look like, it becomes less of a matter of pure numbers and can get into the almost eugenics feeling flavors of kind of trying to construct a society that looks a specific way. And often, that way is white and heteronormative. Michael Calore: Yeah, and along class lines and along socioeconomic lines as well, right? Zoë Schiffer: Exactly. Yeah, and you can imagine that the policies that you would design would be really different if you're focused on the family unit versus the number of babies. And so yeah, the different flavors of this kind of matter from a policy perspective too. It does also feel like, especially when we're talking about JD Vance's views and some of the tech elite's views, that this has become somewhat of a right-wing issue, which is interesting because, is population decline at its core, right or left coded? Michael Calore: It is not particularly coded one way or the other, but I think when you talk about the reasons why population decline happens, there's not one thing you can point to. You have to point to a bunch of things that are happening economically and a bunch of things that are happening societally. Right? So, when women enter the workplace, they tend to have fewer children. When women have more control over their reproductive health, they tend to have fewer children. When countries get more affluent, there tend to be fewer children. When countries have less support systems, like they don't invest in health care and they don't invest in child care systems for their populace, then there are fewer children because people have more anxiety about having kids. So, there are these things that feel like they're progressive political issues that if we followed those policies, they would result in fewer children. And if we rolled back those policies, sort of double down on the idea of traditional marriage, of a woman's place is not in the workplace but it's in the home. I mean, this is saying, this is putting a lot of words into conservatives' mouths because I'm sure there are a lot of conservative people who do not feel this way, but that is why it is traditionally right coded. Zoë Schiffer: Got it. Lauren Goode: Yeah, and just to double tap that, this has become politicized. This is now kind of broken down into liberals versus conservatives, but traditionally, the elites have determined in some ways whether we're supposed to be having more babies or whether we're supposed to be having less babies, because there have also been concerns in the past about the population bombs and the fact that we need to make fewer babies. I can't believe we're talking about this like talking about baking a cake, but [inaudible 00:08:29]. Michael Calore: It's sort of baking a cake. Lauren Goode: But it is. Michael Calore: You put one in the oven. Zoë Schiffer: A bun in the oven. Lauren Goode: But a lot of times it is the elites of a society that are setting the tone. And then ultimately, when those who are considered of a lower class either start to make more babies or start to have fewer babies, there's a little bit of the elites become appalled like, wait a second, this is supposed to apply to certain segments of society. Zoë Schiffer: It's also interesting because the countries that have tried to roll out policies to encourage people to have more kids have largely been unsuccessful. Japan has had a real problem with a declining birth rate, this kind of looming crisis with an aging population. And they rolled out policies to try and encourage people to have more kids, like more family-friendly type of government policies, but it hasn't changed the kind of statistics. Michael Calore: Well, I want to talk more about the actual crisis and how we got to this point, that we're calling it a crisis. So, let's take a quick break and we'll come right back. All right. So, let's talk about the history of birth rates. Lauren, I know you've been researching this a little bit, so, can you please let us know what is actually going on with the birth rate in this country, in the United States, and elsewhere around the world? Lauren Goode: Yeah, so when we say birth rate, I mean, I think we should just quickly define that. There are at least a couple different ways of looking at it. There's the number of live births per 1,000 people. Some people lean on this idea of the total fertility rate, which is the average number of babies a woman or a person with a uterus will bear. And everyone seems to be pretty happy when this total fertility rate is around 2.1. So basically, if women are having two children, the population seems stable, everything seems great. Zoë Schiffer: Got it, OK, so it's a little different than the kind of joke that in the Bay Area, that the ultimate status symbol these days is three kids in a Rivian. The happy place is a little less than that. Lauren Goode: What was I saying earlier about the elites? But yes, that's a pretty good one. I hadn't heard that before. Michael Calore: No shade at all if you're listening to this in your Rivian right now. Zoë Schiffer: No, absolutely not. We're— Lauren Goode: Yeah, that's right. Rivians are pretty— Michael Calore: You're cool. Lauren Goode: I went for my first ride in a Rivian recently, and I was like, this is pretty nice. But, yeah. Michael Calore: You're cool, don't worry. We think you're cool. Lauren Goode: So, as of around 2023, we've been in something that has been referred to as the birth dearth, which means that there are approximately 1.62 children born per woman, when the ideal replacement rate is once again 2.1. But we've been in this birth dearth now since the late 1980s. So, this is not a new thing, but it is part of the new conversations that we're having now. Michael Calore: So, we're all hyper aware of the conversation around pronatalism right now, because politicians and cultural influencers are always talking about the declining birth rate and their messaging around what the ideal family looks like. But the period of time in this country from the 1950s to the 1970s was a different kind of moment for birth rates as well. What happened then? Lauren Goode: This is the part of the podcast where we get into a little bit of a therapy session about the baby boomers, which I think are all of our parents, right? So everyone knows the term baby boomer and the baby boom. This happened from the late-1940s to the late-1960s, and prior to the baby boom, it was a boom because before that, fertility rates had been down. So, around the 1930s, the fertility rate was around two children per woman. During the baby boom, that fertility rate shot up, nearly doubled to nearly four children per woman. Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh. Lauren Goode: Yeah, and those levels haven't actually been seen since the beginning of the 20th century. So, what happened after the baby boom in the late-1960s is that everyone got really concerned with overpopulation, right? There were books and panels and talks and podcasts and Instagram stories. I'm just kidding, those didn't exist then, but the influencers of that time. People were panicking about this idea that the world's resources were going to be depleted, and we basically couldn't meet the need of this overwhelming population. So, that was around the time that China started rolling out one-child policies. People started using birth control more. There were even forced sterilizations in some countries. And so, there was low fertility rates in the 1930s and '40s, there was a boom, then there was an overreaction to that. Zoë Schiffer: And an overcorrection, it sounds like. Lauren Goode: That's correct, and an overcorrection to that as well. Zoë Schiffer: Interesting. Yeah, I mean, the issues with overpopulation to me feel a lot more tangible than the issues with declining birth rates. But I get that if you throw far enough in the future, both of these things can be problematic. Michael Calore: Yeah. Is population decline a concern around the world? Is everybody as worried about it as JD Vance and Silicon Valley? Lauren Goode: Yeah, no, this is a concern beyond just the western world, beyond the US. Global fertility rates are declining too, it's almost universal. And that's partly because of the reasons you mentioned before, Mike, where in developing countries, women are becoming educated or they're staying in the workforce, or where there's generally greater wealth, people have fewer babies. But there's also this factor of instability. We've just been through a pandemic, there's climate change. Now we have concerns about a destabilized government that may further slash social services. I guess if there's any learning we can take from the 1930s and '40s, the era before the baby boom, maybe it's, don't start wars and dismantle society. Zoë Schiffer: OK, so in summary, it sounds like population decline, as Elon Musk has said, is actually a problem, both in the United States and around the world. But the question of what to do about it differs, depending on who you ask. Lauren Goode: Yes. Michael Calore: And how big the problem is also depends on who you ask. Lauren Goode: Yep. Zoë Schiffer: OK, OK. Lauren Goode: Right. Michael Calore: So, what are the concerns? Why do the pronatalists among us feel as though we should be having more children? Lauren Goode: Well, they want to maintain population levels, clearly. I mean, they just want to support economic growth. They want to preserve national identities. They want to make sure that we have a strong military, they want to make sure that we're growing as a nation, essentially. People look at it as a direct correlation to things like prosperity as a nation and GDP, effectively. What are we able to produce as a society? There's also a factor here where in some cultures it's pretty standard for younger people, younger generations, even if they're no longer young, to care for their aging or elderly parents. People are now living into their 70s and 80s, and when you have fewer kids or no kids, then it reasons that your potential caretakers go away as you get older. And I think that's part of the tension here too, is that people are having fewer babies, same time, boomers and let's assume Gen X'ers are going to be living longer. We're all going to be living longer. Who's going to take care of people as they get older and need legitimate care? But at the same time, social services may not exist to support that either. It's a genuine problem, and so I could see how if you're just thinking about it purely from a pure reasoning or logical perspective, you would be like, well, we just need to have more babies then, because as people get older, we need more people to take care of the elderly. Michael Calore: That's why we have AI humanoid robots. Lauren Goode: Right, yeah, that's definitely going to make everything better, I think. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, it's interesting. I don't want to derail us too much, but it does feel like there's this emphasis on, who will do the caretaking in future generations? And yet, caretaking work, at least in the United States, is some of the least valued work in our society. It's either very low paid or unpaid. And ideally, I think there are a lot of experts who would say if that is an important factor, then the government should show that by actually compensating people adequately for that type of work. Lauren Goode: I think you're totally right, and I think that says something about the way that we look at labor now, and in particular Silicon Valley. Because as we all know from covering this world, there tends to be this kind of obsession with solutionism in Silicon Valley. And what that sometimes translates to is dehumanizing the humans in the workforce and just thinking about them as workers or laborers. And so when you're thinking about in pronatalism, well, we need more people to fuel our economic growth. What's the most obvious solution? What's the low-hanging fruit? Let's make more babies, right? But I do think it's also, pronatalism is inextricably linked with so many other factors of our society. The New Yorker was writing about this recently, and there was this one sentence that jumped out at me talking about how fertility is such a significant decision that any individual is going to make, but it's not just like this one decision. They wrote, "A theory of fertility is necessarily a theory of everything. It's gender, it's money, politics, culture, evolution." I would add religion to that list. And right now, we're in this moment where Democrats and I believe rightfully, are emphasizing bodily autonomy on the heels of Roe v. Wade being overturned and abortion rights being seriously threatened or eliminated entirely. And meanwhile, Republicans keep stressing a more traditional, and in some instances outdated idea of the family unit. And there's this element of control around all of this. Michael Calore: Silicon Valley is very good at thinking up tech-based solutions to problems. And I mean, there's a lot of very, very good data for the population trends, right? Governments and NGOs have been tracking it for decades. And I feel like when you put reams of data in front of somebody who is in founder mode, they're going to start thinking of every tech-based solution that they can. And that's going to spin off a whole bunch of ideas, it's going to affect the culture around them in their friend group and their peer group. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, you can see why this is an attractive idea for the tech elite, because it is, it's a big humanity level problem that has a lot of different factors at play. And the idea that you could come in and armed with enough data, solve it with an app. That's kind of core Silicon Valley. Lauren Goode: Totally, yeah. And Silicon Valley really embraces the idea of optimization too, always be optimizing, which can apply to child-rearing as well. There's so much expectation on parents these days, it seems. Of course, people are going to try to optimize parenting. On the other hand, people have been having babies for millennia and without being rich. It's just, how much love and care can you provide for a child, right? And I think people do still want to believe in that, and yet they feel that's insurmountable because of our lack of economic stability. Zoë Schiffer: I'm just snapping. Michael Calore: Let's snap our way into a break. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley . So on the surface, the idea seems to be, more babies. We need to have more babies, babies, babies, babies. But in practice, this kind of looks like something beyond just making more babies. It seems to be more babies of a certain kind, a sort of selective pronatalism. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, there's been a lot of investment in this area. It kind of dovetails into the longevity stuff that we talked about in an earlier episode. People like Sam Altman and Jeff Bezos and even Peter Thiel, have invested in a number of biotech or longevity type companies. Sam Altman, for example, is invested in a company that's trying to see if it can grow human egg cells from blood cells. So, there are a bunch of different efforts to try and influence how people are able to have babies. And then Lauren, I know you've done a fair amount of research on what types of babies and what traits you can select for. Lauren Goode: So we actually ran a story in WIRED last year, written by Jason Kehe, it was one of our big interviews, and he interviewed the founder of this interesting company called Orchid, and the woman's name is Noor Siddiqui. Orchid is one of these technologies that allows people to screen for truly debilitating conditions or diseases at the embryo phase of IVF. So typically, embryos are screened before they're transferred to someone's body to make sure that there are no genetic abnormalities and that there's some likelihood that this would result in a successful live birth. And so this company, Orchid, takes that a step further during the screening process. They screen for all sorts of things. But when you get into this idea of we're screening for all of these things, it's a slippery slope. At what point do you start screening for intelligence or athletic ability? And at what point is the E word a dirty word here? I don't think so. At what point are you doing, is it eugenics? Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, I think Elon Musk and Grimes used Orchid for one of their pregnancies. It's interesting because it's a more extreme example of a question that almost every parent has, which is, how much screening do I want to do? It's a question that you're asked when you're pregnant and you have to decide, do I want to just see if me and my partner are carriers for any of the same things? Do I want to do no testing? I've had friends that decided not to because for them it wasn't going to make a difference either way. And yeah, but we're in this interesting era where the number of things that you can test for go, like you said, Lauren, far beyond just genetic abnormalities. Lauren Goode: What's fascinating about this too, is that the people who now go this route, they sometimes choose which gender they want to try to have first, because the embryos are identified as male or female. And then some families kind of strategize around it. If they have embryos frozen on ice waiting, they'll go, well, we sort of wanted to have a girl first, and so we'll do this, or whatnot. And that's fairly normalized now. Zoë Schiffer: Totally. Lauren Goode: Right? That idea. And so as this technology advances, and maybe this is getting a little bit off topic, but it is taking it a step further. So as it goes a step further, at what point does it cross over into a territory where if someone is just screening for, we want to make sure we're having not only the healthiest but the smartest and the children with the most potential, and really kind of designing this hyper elite society in a way that just feels dangerous. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. It makes me think of this line from Chloe Cooper Jones' book, Easy Beauty , where she talked about the assumption that certain characteristics will lead to a better life. Like if a baby is born with better "traits," that they will be happier and have a better life is, that's a big assumption. There's no reason to believe that that would lead to a better life down the road. Lauren Goode: Well, I think what you're tapping into is, it's like, what is the definition of better, right? Michael Calore: And that's something that we can't ignore when we talk about this because there's so much tremendous ego involved with people who want to have a lot of children because they're saying like, "Hey, I'm a smart and really good person, and the world is lucky to have me here because I'm making the world better. We should have more of me." Zoë Schiffer: Right, I mean, that to me feels very Elon Musk coded, not to bring it all back to him, but—and I know this point has been made a lot, but it really does piss me off when someone says, talks a lot about how we should all be having more babies. And then in the case of Elon, is actively stripping away parental leave policies at his various companies. It just seems like the point is to care about the baby until they're born or the parent until they've had the baby, and then kind of leave them to fend for themselves, which is so problematic. Lauren Goode: Zoë, if I may ask you. When you were going from, you had one child and now you have a second, when you were thinking about the concept of more babies or having more children, were there factors in your mind like how much leave you might get at work or schools in your area or things like that, that were actually affecting your near term thinking about it? Zoë Schiffer: Honestly, no, that's just not how my brain works. I was really purely focused on the kind of idea of the family that I wanted. Wanting my first child to have a sibling, wanting to really experience having a baby again, the joy that brings, the fulfillment that that brings. Once my second was born, of course, those things were very on my mind because suddenly I was back at work trying to manage two kids, and the social safety net or the absence of that net was very apparent to me. So, I understand why people think that way, it's just, yeah, not how my brain works. Lauren Goode: Yeah. One of our colleagues once said to me when I was asking how their return from parental leave was, they said something really interesting that has rattled in my brain ever since, which is, "So it turns out the only way to have a kid is to have a kid." Michael Calore: That's poetry. Lauren Goode: And so I guess, yeah, there's part of you that just has to jump and take the leap. And if you just think about all of those other factors, then you'll psych yourself out of literally doing anything in your life. But that is not to downplay the very real concerns and economic realities and social instability that a lot of people feel. Zoë Schiffer: For sure. Lauren Goode: I mean, we're in a privileged western world, we just have to blanket statement this entire episode. Michael Calore: Fully. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, so Lauren, that makes me think about, I mean, and this might be simplistic, but when we're talking about concerns with a declining population or declining population rate, to me, a natural solution would be increased immigration. And yet we are having a very contentious discussion in the country and in Silicon Valley about that very issue. And while Silicon Valley has historically been pro-immigration, we're seeing more and more that it's a very specific type of immigrant with specialized skillset that is being welcome to the country, while a lot of other people are being either pushed out or barred from entering in the first place. Michael Calore: Yeah, and there is a correlation, like what we talked about earlier with regards to the factors in a society that lead to it having a declining birth rate. Economic prosperity is one of them, so as your country becomes more prosperous, then your birth rates go down. But also as your country becomes more prosperous, then you attract more people into the country through immigration. So, that's something that we're seeing a lot in the United States. People come to the United States to have a better life. Zoë Schiffer: Right. Michael Calore: Right? OK, so are there any final thoughts? Zoë Schiffer: My very personal final thought is just that having a baby for any reason outside of the fact that you just really want to have a baby, is a really foreign thing to me. I don't want to put judgment on anyone, but that just seems totally crazy. Michael Calore: But it's for the good of humanity. Zoë Schiffer: It's such a personal thing. I don't know if the good of humanity is going to get you through the very long nights where you're not sleeping. I'm sorry. It's so wonderful, but it's also so hard. I think you really need to want to do it. What's your final thought? Lauren Goode: My final thought is a little bit more of a question to put back on you guys, which is, do you think that this messaging that we're hearing now from members of government and from our technocratic elite, "Do you think this is going to work?" Will it be effective? Will we see a baby boom? Will the fertility rate go up? Michael Calore: I think the reasons for a baby boom are so complex and out of our short-term control, that we won't see big effects for a long time. Zoë Schiffer: I think if we see a change in the fertility rate, it'll be because we're taking away people's access to contraception or abortion, and not because Elon Musk and JD Vance are telling us to have more babies. That's my take. Michael Calore: I have a final thought that maybe will allow us to end on a brighter note. Zoë Schiffer: Please. Michael Calore: Which is the fact that all of this attention that Silicon Valley is paying to fertility stuff and women's reproductive health in general is a good thing, because there's a science-based mindset now to fertility and longevity in Silicon Valley, and I think that's a good thing. I think we can all agree that the state of women's fertility treatments and gadgets and various technological solutions to women's reproductive health have been bad for a very long time, and that is changing. And I think the reason it's changing is because there's all this investment in science and personal technology. You can buy a smartwatch that tracks your cycles now, right? You can buy sensors that you put on your body that measure your basal temperature. And all of these things that are accessible to more people now in order to give them technological solutions to have kids if they want to have kids. Zoë Schiffer: You could buy a ring, which we won't mention by name until they sponsor the podcast. No, I think that's really well said, Mike. Michael Calore: Thanks. Lauren Goode: OK. I have one pushback to that, Mike, which is, you're correct that it's great that all of these consumer tools are available to people, and the more advanced assistive reproductive technology is getting more advanced. That's all great. These things need to be designed very thoughtfully by a diverse group of people, including some people who have experienced pregnancy and other issues surrounding pregnancy. And they need to have truly, truly in today's day and age, have privacy in mind. That is of the utmost importance. Zoë Schiffer: And you know what I want? I want a better app that tells you the size of your baby week to week, because it's all like, your baby is the size of romaine lettuce. And I'm like, there's very different sizes of romaine. That doesn't tell me anything, this is crazy. All those apps suck. Michael Calore: Plus we live in California, our romaine lettuces are huge. Zoë Schiffer: They're huge, yeah. Michael Calore: [inaudible 00:30:19]. Zoë Schiffer: There's no way [inaudible 00:30:21]. Michael Calore: Thanks for listening to Uncanny Valley . If you'd like what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with us with any questions, comments, baby name suggestions, or suggestions for the show, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Today's show is produced by Kyana Moghadam. Amar Lal at Macrosound mixed this episode, Daniel Roman fact checked this episode. Jordan Bell is our Executive Producer. Katie Drummond is WIRED's Global Editorial Director, and Chris Bannon is our Head of Global Audio.
