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Hospitality Net
21-05-2025
- Business
- Hospitality Net
Recast: Guests define what luxury means today
In this week's episode of Hotel Moment, we're re-visiting a conversation with Shannon Knapp, President and CEO of The Leading Hotels of the World, and Revinate CMO Karen Stephens. They discuss how technology is the 'great facilitator' of luxury experiences and the driver of true guest loyalty. Shannon also sets the record straight on who really calls the shots on luxury experiences (hint: it's your guests), and shares why serving your guests' preferences is one of the best things you can do to elevate on-property experiences. Tune in to discover what's really important to your guests and get tips on how you can teach your staff to make the most out of your technology so your efforts don't go to waste. Meet your host As Chief Marketing Officer at Revinate, Karen Stephens is focused on driving long-term growth by building Revinate's brand equity, product marketing, and customer acquisition strategies. Her deep connections with hospitality industry leaders play a key role in crafting strategic partnerships. Karen is also the host of The Hotel Moment Podcast, where she interviews top players in the hospitality industry. Karen has been with Revinate for over 11 years, leading Revinate's global GTM teams. Her most recent transition was from Chief Revenue Officer, where she led the team in their highest booking quarter to date in Q4 2023. Karen has more than 25 years of expertise in global hospitality technology and online distribution — including managing global accounts in travel and hospitality organizations such as Travelocity and Watch the video Transcript Intro – 00:00:04: Welcome to the Hotel Moment podcast presented by Revinate, the podcast where we discuss how hotel technology shapes every moment of the hotelier's experience. Tune in as we explore the cutting-edge technology transforming the hospitality industry and hear from experts and visionaries shaping the future of guest experiences. Whether you're a hotelier or a tech enthusiast, you're in the right place. Let's dive in and discover how we can elevate the art of hospitality together. Karen Stephens- 00:00:37: Welcome to the Hotel Moment podcast. I'm your host, Karen Stephens, the Chief Marketing Officer of Revinate. And on today's episode, we are thrilled to have Shannon Knapp. Shannon is the President and CEO of The Leading Hotels in the World. With a deep background in luxury hospitality, Shannon has been pivotal in driving global customer engagement, brand strategy, and marketing innovation for over a decade. Under her leadership, LHW has seen significant growth in brand awareness and customer loyalty. Prior to her current role, Shannon held various senior positions at American Express, including Vice President of Marketing for Travel and Lifestyle Services, where she spearheaded key initiatives in customer experience and loyalty programs. With over 20 years of experience in creating integrated marketing strategies, Shannon is recognized as a leader in elevating brand presence and enhancing customer satisfaction in the luxury travel sector. This conversation was just phenomenal. I mean, first of all, to have a leader of Shannon's caliber on the podcast, I mean to say — I am very grateful. We started out our conversation talking about the shift in the luxury space. So Shannon had a really good insight about how luxury has shifted over the last, call it 20 years or so. It used to be very led by the hotels, and now it's really down to the travelers. So it's really an n-of-1, is how she put it. So the need to understand the expectations of the customer and how to provide the guest experience is more important than it's ever been. And personalization is really at the core of that. She also talked about the shift in the technology stack. So the center of the hotel that used to be the property management system has now really shifted over to the CRM. And we also talked a lot about, since the time of COVID, the shift for a lot of hotels in their marketing mix. Obviously, we're seeing a lot more leisure than we've seen before. Corporate has kind of stepped back, and it's ebbed and flowed, but she really hit on how hotels should think about how they get the right mix of business in their hotel and what really matters there. And finally, we capped off our conversation by Shannon talking about her own career trajectory that led her to the top spot at the world's leading hotels. So obviously, as a CEO, whether it's in hospitality or in any industry, it's still fairly rare for a woman to be holding that top position. And Shannon talked a lot about what got her there. So some of that has to do with the mentors that helped her throughout her journey with advice as she came up in her career, and the importance of mentorship. And then she also talked about being open to all kinds of different roles, understanding what you like and what you don't like. So I really encourage anybody who is looking for career advice or is inspired by someone who has reached that echelon, to give a listen. So I give you Shannon Knapp. Welcome to the podcast, Shannon. We're so delighted to have you here. Shannon Knapp – 00:03:34: Thank you, Karen. I'm thrilled to be here. I appreciate the invitation. Karen Stephens – 00:03:38: Absolutely. So I'd love to jump right in. So can you give our audience an idea of who are The Leading Hotels of the World and what is, kind of, your role? Obviously, you're the President and CEO, but we'd love to hear a little bit about the luxury travel space and how Leading Hotels of the World really contributes in that area. Shannon Knapp – 00:03:55: Sure. So Leading Hotels of the World is a collection of over 400 truly independent luxury hotels all around the world. We're in, I think, over 80 countries at this point. And our mission is really to empower the success of our independent hotels so that they can continue to make the choice to stay independent, which, as you know, in this time is increasingly difficult thing. So what we try and do for our members is to provide global distribution, obviously a global luxury brand, sales, marketing, technology, data analytics support, so that they can continue to be successful. Many of them are brands in and of themselves, but they can continue to be successful, grow their business, and we can continue to support this thriving independent luxury segment. Karen Stephens – 00:04:44: Yes, and we're familiar, we have a lot of Revinate customers that are also the world's leading hotels. And I can tell you, I mean, obviously, you know, some of the most beautiful hotels that are all over the world. And I think what I love so much about your organization, and you just hit on it, the hotels are able to maintain their independence. And so they have their own character, their own experience, but they have that support from the overall organization. That's great. So you've been operating in the luxury travel space for quite a while. So before you were at the world's leading hotels, you were with American Express on the luxury travel end. So can you talk to me a little bit about the history of luxury hospitality? What have you seen change when it comes to creating a luxury stay experience and what has kind of remained constant? Shannon Knapp – 00:05:29: I think, and I'm certainly not going to share anything that is probably earth-shattering here, but luxury has changed so significantly over the last, let's call it 20, 25 years. I think in the past, especially on the hospitality side, the hotel side, the hotels almost used to dictate what luxury was. We define the standards of luxury, and we told that to the consumer, and we demonstrated that in the experience to the consumer. But what has evolved and changed so significantly, is that luxury now is such a personal experience. It really is about what is important to me as a traveler, as a person, and what is luxury to me might be completely not luxury to you. And I think that that is both a challenge and an opportunity in our business. I mean, we certainly see this reflected in the guests that stay with leading hotels. Not only do they absolutely love their traditional palace hotels in our portfolio, like the Ritz-Carlton, or like the Lowell here in New York City, but they're also really interested in hotels that meet different criteria for luxury these days based on who they are. Maybe having different experiences being with a hotel in a remote location or a hotel that offers a hyper authentic experience that is authentic to its destination. Or maybe they want to stay at a really small, intimate hotel that maybe doesn't have all the traditional five-star amenities and multiple F&B outlets. Or maybe not a central lobby, for example, but something that's a little bit more home-like. They embrace different kinds of architecture and design. We see, obviously, and I know, again, this is a trend that we're all seeing in the industry, but this shift towards a focus on holistic wellness and sustainability as interest. So I think the definition of luxury over the last several years has evolved to be much more of an N-of-1, in a way. What is luxury to me, and how will I express that in the choices that I make with the hotels that I stay in? Karen Stephens – 00:07:27: You know what, that's a really great point. And what you're hitting on or what I'm hearing from that is how important personalization is. So really understanding what that guest wants and needs. Because as you mentioned, again, going back to the uniqueness of the world's leading hotels, 400 hotels, they're all different. You know, they all have their own flavor. So can you talk just a little bit, how do you approach that from a marketing standpoint, thinking about how you understand the guest and make sure that that experience is as personalized as possible from the communication standpoint, website brand? Like how do you approach that? Because it's a tall order. Shannon Knapp – 00:08:02: Absolutely, as marketers, it's no longer just broad segments that we can create offerings for and call it a day. It really is segments of one. So it starts with, and this again, many years ago, the center of the tech stack universe at the hotel used to be the PMS. The PMS did everything for our members and for hotels around the world. But so much more now is available to enable the hotel, to deliver a truly personalized experience. I mean, obviously Revinate is a partner of leading hotels, actually, in terms of being a CRM provider. You know, CRM for a hotel is really a fairly recent development, and it's something that has become so vital to being able to collect the interests and the needs and the preferences of your guests, and then be able to match the right promotion or the right experience. That is all being done now at scale. So especially on the luxury side, when you think about luxury being, about white glove service, personalization, really delivering that, that used to be delivered exclusively by the most connected GMs who had the most robust Rolodex of customer information on their desk that they could pull out when they knew you were coming to stay. But now we can do that level of personalization at scale, and really free up the front of house staff to deliver the experience that they want to deliver, to do what they do best, which is really, spend time with the guests, speak to the guests, get to know what their needs are and kind of match the experience for them. That's something that historically couldn't be done at a scale that we can do it today because of the availability of technology and data resources that post-COVID, we've really seen the luxury hotel industry embrace. Karen Stephens – 00:09:45: And that is so exciting. I think you really hit on something extraordinary there. If you have somebody who really loves hospitality, staff and hotels, what they really want to be doing is interacting with that guest. And if you're leveraging that technology properly, you've done the heavy lift for them, and then they can just put the guest experience on top, which I know for luxury hotels is at the center. Shannon Knapp – 00:10:04: It's their passion, right? Their passion is not technology, but I think they've come to realize that technology can really empower and enable them to do what they do best. And what they want to do is make that guest return. They want to make that guest so happy that they want to return to their hotel, and they now see the power of technology to enable that experience that they deliver personally that drives that level of loyalty. Karen Stephens – 00:10:27: That's exciting. So speaking of loyalty, you just brought up another buzzword near and dear to my heart. Loyalty in the context of a collection of independents. And I know that you initiated the Leaders Club program. So can you share how the program has evolved since its inception and how hotels are utilizing it? Shannon Knapp – 00:10:45: Sure. And Karen, I wish I could take credit for initiating the Leaders Club program, but I certainly can't do that. It's been around for many years, but we did relaunch the program in 2018. First off, and kind of leading from the last question, loyalty really starts and ends with the experience that's delivered at the hotel. From our perspective, we have the best hotels and hoteliers in the world who do this every day. And so it really starts and ends there. But of course, being in hotels, we need to have a loyalty program. And we have created what I think is a really great platform, loyalty platform for both the consumers as well as the hotels themselves. So as an independent hotel, it neither makes economic sense nor practical sense for you to have your own loyalty program. The expense of the loyalty program is very difficult. The diversity of where guests travel makes it very difficult for smaller-scale groups or individual hotels to have a loyalty program that makes sense. So what we've done is we've provided a platform for our members to be able to offer loyalty benefits from Leaders Club that enable them to reward their best guests, to enhance the stay experience, again, to make that guest want to return, not only to the hotel that they're staying at, but also to make the connection between the hotel and the extraordinary experience that they're having there with Leaders Club and The Leading Hotels of the World, so that when they travel to a new destination, they look to The Leading Hotels of the World and Leaders Club for where they would like to stay. So the loyalty program is complimentary to travelers, and it really creates that gateway to our extraordinary collection of independent luxury hotels around the world. And it enables the guests to have an elevated stay experience with benefits and amenities, including pre-arrival upgrade, complimentary breakfast, the ability to earn points to redeem later for stays. And what's interesting or unique about our program is that you earn those benefits from day one. So you don't have to go through a tier before you get some of these, for example, complimentary breakfast or upgrades. Those come day one with your membership with Leaders Club. Karen Stephens – 00:12:53: That's wonderful. And are you also leveraging personalization within Leaders Club? So making sure that whatever the guest is telling you, you can then transmit to other hotels. How does that work? Shannon Knapp – 00:13:03: There's quite a world of GDPR and PII and all those things that we have to obviously be very conscious of and very careful with the data of our guests. And we are different than your traditional fully branded hotels like Marriott or Hilton's, and that we don't own operate or franchise our hotels. So the data of our hotels is actually uniquely the data of our hotels. However, as Leaders Club, the program, if you sign up as a Leaders Club program, and you choose to share with us your preferences and you choose to say that you're happy to have those preferences shared across your stay experiences, we absolutely do and are able to share that information with our hotels, whether that's something as simple as your arrival time. So you can hope that your room would be prepared for your arrival to your preference in the type of location of your room or the type of amenities you enjoy. So when the guests chooses us to provide that, and they're comfortable with us sharing that, we do share that with our hotels around the world. Karen Stephens – 00:14:03: That's wonderful. You know, one thing that we've always talked about with personalization, or if you're asking for guest information, is that you use it properly, obviously, but then you do actually use it. So if somebody tells you in one hotel, you know, I want to be facing whatever, the courtyard, you want to make sure that the next hotel gets that information. So that's great. You're able to tie it together with the loyalty program. So shifting gears a little bit, it is that time of year, we are heading into the budget season. And so I'm sure as the world's leading hotels, you probably give a lot of advice and help hotels as they move through it. But generally, what kind of advice do you give during this period? Why do they think about their financial planning, their marketing budgets, their tech stack? How do you advise the hotels in that regard? Shannon Knapp – 00:14:46: It's such an interesting time. I do think that it has really stimulated a different approach and a different take on the annual budgeting process now. What we try, and when we speak to our hotels, and we are strategic business partners for our hotels, we are there to help ensure that they're maximizing the revenue that comes to them through all channels. So we work with them on their budgeting strategy from a revenue perspective, as well as their distribution strategy. How will they achieve that outcome? And what we're seeing a lot of these days is a shift in mix. So leisure, obviously, it kind of took off in 2021, 2022, and has really become a major part of the mix of a lot of our hotels, so much so that some of our hotels who were historically maybe more of a balanced mix of corporate, and group, and leisure, are now really leaning very heavily on the leisure business, and maybe reducing the amount of corporate business they have or the amount of group business that they're pursuing. So the guidance that we give to our hotels is really understand, obviously, your owner's expectations, but also where is that business coming from today? Where do you think you need to invest resources to increase your share? And increase your share in a way that's realistic. So you may wish to have a highly rated business from a certain country of origin, but if you've got zero of that today, it's going to be very hard for you to suddenly blow that out of the water. So help them really have an eye to what is their mix today? What is their aspirational mix? What is the investment that they need to make both themselves as well as in collaboration with us to affect that outcome? As it relates to budgeting for CapEx related things, specifically technology, we have a lot of conversations with our members about not being distracted by the new shiny object. Really understand what the use case is for these new technology platforms that we all get. You know, every day I get probably 50 emails from various vendors of data technology. They're all great, I'm sure. But what is the problem that I'm trying to solve as a hotelier from my hotel? Really be clear on what the use cases are. Don't be distracted by the next shiny object coming through. And make sure that you have somebody on property who can actually manage that vendor. And if you can't, work with us because we can help you with that. Because having the greatest technology platform that no one on property understands means you're not maximizing the value. It means you're wasting money and resources. Karen Stephens – 00:17:19: Oh my gosh, truer words were never spoken. You know, we had our own conference this spring in Miami, and our CEO got up on stage, and he showed a picture of a utility closet, you know, in a hotel with all the wires and hanging out. It's like, here's where technology goes to die. And I think you hit it on the head. All these platforms, they don't speak to each other, and nobody's managing it. And so somebody thought it was a good idea, but I think that truer words were never spoken. Making sure that everything could be integrated, you can have access to the data, and someone's managing it. Shannon Knapp – 00:17:50: Exactly. And I mean, think about it from an independent hotel's perspective. If you're a small hotel in the middle of the Swiss Alps, maybe you have a team of 10 folks on property between sales, marketing, and distribution. It's hard to expect that somebody on property is going to have the experience, the knowledge, the time to be able to manage this increasing collection of technology providers, especially when they don't speak to each other, especially when what they sold you is not necessarily what has been implemented. So it's really important. And this is a role that has become increasingly important for leading over the last several years is consulting with our members first. As I mentioned, don't get distracted, understand the problems you're trying to solve, but also then how are you maximizing the tools that you have? You don't need anything new. You actually have a great setup here. You have a great tech stack. How are you using it? And how can we help you do that? Karen Stephens – 00:18:42: Absolutely. And I can just say from the vendor side, when we went through the partnership with Leading Hotels of the World, your team stepped in to do all of the technical due diligence. It was not a one-and-done. There were many competitors in that boat. So I just want to give a shout out. I think, again, if you're an independent hotel, for you to do that kind of diligence is difficult. So to be able to kind of look to Leading and say, 'Okay, this vendor works or doesn't', I think is important. Shannon Knapp – 00:19:07: Yeah, thanks, Karen. It is something, like I mentioned, it's a newish, certainly not a newish capability for us. We've had a very strong tech team for many years, but in terms of turning to the hotel operations side, and really helping to be a partner for our members in identifying their needs, finding the right partners, the right vendors to meet those needs, because the needs of smaller hotels, independent hotels are very different from those of larger hotels or hotels that are part of chain brands. So really understanding what the distinct needs of these members are and then helping to make sure that they're getting the best business terms, the best commercial terms, best service terms, as well as obviously world-class technology solutions. So, I mean, we're proud that we're able to help in that way. And the demand for that is ever-increasing. Karen Stephens – 00:19:51: It really is because, my goodness, to your point, to wrap your brain around the speed at which all of the things are coming out now is a lot. And so to be able to leverage kind of the experience of a central team, to be part of an association where you've got other hotels, you can leverage that knowledge and have something centrally driving it, it's really exciting. So speaking of kind of global brand presence for a hotelier, what one piece of advice would you offer to hoteliers that are looking to increase their brand's global presence and customer experience in the digital age? Is there anything that comes to mind? Shannon Knapp – 00:20:25: I think it comes down to really having a good understanding of your business, your growth aspirations, and trying to, in all seriousness, maximize the partners that are available to you. Because I would say, and it's truer than ever, as much as I think there are a ton of capabilities that enable, that may sell themselves as, 'Hey, you can do this all yourself', I think that that is a really tall order for any independent or smaller operator to figure out how to elevate your brand, how to define your distribution across literally, thousands of channels globally to manage your operations, to deliver a great guest experience, to manage your loyal guests. The task is taller than it has ever been for hotel operators. And I think the best advice that I could offer is to stay maniacally focused on what you are trying to achieve from a business outcomes perspective, from a guest experience perspective, and put your resources on the things that matter in driving those outcomes. Karen Stephens – 00:21:33: I love that. That's great advice. Okay, so Shannon, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you this question. So for women aspiring to reach top leadership positions, what tips do you have based on your own career journey? Moving from a marketing leadership position to the top job, what helped you make that transition? Shannon Knapp – 00:21:51: I would say the most important thing across my entire career has been the support and advocacy of mentors. I have had three mentors across my career that have really invested in me and have helped me, and they've challenged me. They have helped me refine what my career aspirations were, and they really invested in my success. And that's something that I think as a rare female leader in this industry, is something that I love to kind of pay it back or pay it forward, however you want to look at it. But it's something that I think is really important for those of us that are in this industry to be able to not only model behavior for future leaders, but also to take the time to mentor and be a support so we can help bring more women into the leadership positions in hospitality in particular. I would say the other thing that I did that maybe at the time I wasn't as conscious about, but I think has been a really important part of my ability to continue to progress in my career is I never charted too narrow a course for my career. I was very comfortable taking lateral moves. I was very comfortable going into areas that I perhaps, that maybe it first didn't appeal to me or I wasn't aware of. And what all of that did was help me really understand and refine over time what I liked, what I was good at, what I didn't like, what I wasn't good at. And all of that helped kind of refine my path as I went along in my career. And I think that that's a really important, especially as I kind of look at our younger workers these days, is to be okay with having a broader scope of experience. Because ultimately that is where I had the greatest learnings. I got to work with different customer types. I got to work in different functions. I got to work with different types of products. And all of that contributed to my knowledge base that I think was really important for me as I moved from being a functional expert in marketing to really taking on the CEO role. I was able to draw on a really diverse background and experience. Karen Stephens – 00:23:59: I love that. And I love the shout-out to mentors as well. I think it's so important to be able to have trusted advisors because I think as we grow in our careers, we gain more and more confidence and to be able to help younger people get some confidence and try and fail and it's okay. Shannon Knapp – 00:24:16: Yeah, failure is an amazing thing, actually. Some of my best lessons, bar none, have been as a result, not of successes, but actually of failures. Karen Stephens – 00:24:23: Failure and learning. Oh, I love that. Shannon, it's been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much. My guest has been Shannon Knapp, who is the president and CEO of Leading Hotels of the World. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Shannon Knapp – 00:24:34: Thank you so much, Karen. Karen Stephens – 00:24:40: Thank you for joining us on this episode of Hotel Moment by Revinate. Our community of hoteliers is growing every week, and each guest we speak to is tackling industry challenges with the innovation and flexibility that our industry demands. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review. And if you're listening on YouTube, please like the video and subscribe for more content. For more information, head to Until next time, keep innovating. View source
Hospitality Net
08-05-2025
- Business
- Hospitality Net
Recast: If you're willing to pay, we will give it to you
In this recast episode of Hotel Moment, we revisit Karen Stephens' conversation with Casper Overbeek, Chief Product Officer at citizenM. Casper shares eye-opening insights into citizenM's groundbreaking paid subscription loyalty program and their distinct approach to personalization across different cultures. From their guaranteed availability promise to their fascinating observations about European versus American guest preferences, discover how citizenM is reimagining hotel loyalty for the modern traveler in ways that continue to disrupt the industry. Meet your host As Chief Marketing Officer at Revinate, Karen Stephens is focused on driving long-term growth by building Revinate's brand equity, product marketing, and customer acquisition strategies. Her deep connections with hospitality industry leaders play a key role in crafting strategic partnerships. Karen is also the host of The Hotel Moment Podcast, where she interviews top players in the hospitality industry. Karen has been with Revinate for over 11 years, leading Revinate's global GTM teams. Her most recent transition was from Chief Revenue Officer, where she led the team in their highest booking quarter to date in Q4 2023. Karen has more than 25 years of expertise in global hospitality technology and online distribution — including managing global accounts in travel and hospitality organizations such as Travelocity and Watch the video Transcript Brenna Turpin – 00:00:00: Hey, Hotel Moment listeners, welcome back to the podcast. Before we get into today's show, we have some exciting news for you. And I know you're expecting to hear Karen Stephens, host of this podcast and Revinate's Chief Marketing Officer, but instead you get me. My name is Brenna, and I'm a Revinator, and I've been working on the Hotel Moment Podcast for the past three years. But I am standing in for Karen today. We're hoping she gets the time off she deserves, but we just couldn't wait to bring this news to you because it is that exciting. So, if you've been on LinkedIn and you're in the hospitality space, you've probably already heard citizenM was acquired by Marriott. We're friends with everyone over at citizenM, and we couldn't be more thrilled for them. If you want to understand why citizenM is a brand to follow, listen to this episode with their Chief Product Officer, Casper Overbeek. He talks with Karen about their approach to innovation and their paid subscription loyalty program. Casper and everyone else over at citizenM, congratulations from all of us, on to the recast of this episode, which first aired in February of this year, but it is still just such a great listen. Casper Overbeek – 00:01:07: That's what we call the European Personalization. Because if you talk about Europeans, very often when you talk about personalization, we could just do some study there. They want to be recognized. The American side is more about customized personalization. It's about how can I make it mine? Intro: 00:01:27: Welcome to the Hotel Moment Podcast presented by Revinate, the podcast where we discuss how hotel technology shapes every moment of the hotelier's experience. Tune in as we explore the cutting-edge technology transforming the hospitality industry. Karen Stephens- 00:01:58: Hello, and welcome to the Hotel Moment podcast. I am your host, Karen Stephens, the Chief Marketing Officer of Revinate. And today we are thrilled to have Casper Overbeek, Chief Product Officer at citizenM joining us. Casper is at the forefront of blending innovation with the guest experience, leading citizenM's digital transformation, and driving the development of products that truly enhance the guest journey. Having worked for over a decade in customer experience and digital strategy, Casper's insights into how technology can elevate hospitality are invaluable. So I have to say, this has been such a fun conversation for me. And I think you'll really hear that when you listen to the episode. So what is blowing my mind about Casper and his approach to innovation is that he and the team at citizenM started with the customer at the center of the journey. And we all talk about that from a high level, but really, really listening. And when he goes into the level of feedback he gets from his customers, his members of the loyalty program, and how that gets implemented across the brand, I mean, it's really going to blow your mind. So that's the first thing that I want to call out. The second thing that I want to call out about the loyalty program itself is the tenets of what it means for the customer, which basically means if you want a room, we're going to find a room for you, and you can rest easy that you're absolutely going to get the best price with us, hands down, no question. So I think those two things are really powerful in terms of a loyalty program. I mean, it is a subscription membership, which is also very interesting. So it's really something to think about in the back of your mind while you're listening here to Casper. So without further ado, here is Casper Overbeek. Casper, welcome to the Podcast. It's a pleasure to have you here. Casper Overbeek – 00:03:38: Hi, Karen. How are you? Karen Stephens- 00:03:39: I am wonderful. You know, I've admired citizenM for a while. So before we jump into the questions here, I would love it if you could just give our audience an overview of the brand itself, how many hotels, the locations, just the high-level view of what citizenM is. Casper Overbeek – 00:03:54: Yeah, appreciate it. So citizenM, it was founded, I think, 15 years ago. And the whole idea was to disrupt hotel industry by solving some key customer problems or traveler problems like, 'I want to stay at a great place, but how can I make it affordable? How can I avoid long check-in lines? How can I avoid having to pay for Wi-Fi? How can I avoid not finding light shifts, switches in the hotel room?' That was the start of the journey. The idea is that we have hotels in AAA locations with rooms that are not too big, but stocked up with the right tech, and that you have your whole live and play in our living rooms, where we are fantastic — for myy staff — to help you. We call them ambassadors. We have Vitra furniture. We have art on the wall, and we are just a friendly go-to place. So we like to call that your best place home where you can take off your shoes, and there is still someone that welcomes you. So that's what we want to give as an experience to each of our guests. We now have 38 hotels mostly in Europe and in the U.S., so we are in cities like, London, Paris, Amsterdam, Zurich, Geneva, Copenhagen, and we have multiple in most cities. But we're also in New York. in Boston, in San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago, Austin. So, I would say the western cities, we are one by one conquering, and we love to do that. I started at citizenM, when we had 10 hotels, now 38. so it's quite a ride. Karen Stephens- 00:05:24: Wow, that's fantastic. And as you mentioned, all really AAA locations. So you can go to these really fabulous cities and stay in a hotel that's at a great price point, but also all the conveniences. I also note that you're really into the big beds. And I think about when I go to a hotel room, I want a comfortable big bed, a nice shower, everything I need. I love that. Casper Overbeek – 00:05:44: Yeah, and those were the starting points in the beginning, and we are still being recognized for that. So thank you for picking that up because one of our key USPs. Karen Stephens- 00:05:52: Absolutely. Absolutely. So you've had a fascinating career. You know, I took a look at your LinkedIn and you mentioned you've been at citizenM for a while now. But before that, you worked in different industries and in customer experience and digital strategy. So what drew you to hospitality initially? And how do you think your experience kind of helped you along in your journey now that you're in hospitality? Casper Overbeek – 00:06:14: Yeah, well, I started my career as a typical corporate management trainee, one of the potentials at KLM — the airline — later on Air France-KLM. And while I was on my journey through the hierarchies, I found out that I actually developed a passion for anything that has to do with customer and digital. So my last role at KLM was being in charge of customer service and service recovery. And I found out, which was quite unusual in those days, that the way we treat our passengers when something goes wrong actually has a very high impact on their willingness to come back, and their comfort level, and their NPS. And basically, I developed a vision on that. We developed it and deployed it through social media, through lots of other ways of working that were quite new at that time. And that was a reason for which is the Amazon of the Netherlands, you can say, to pick me up. It was an online retailer. And there I had the opportunity to look at online retail, but also how you can bring customer mindset there. And I learned a lot about data and digital. And then when citizenM came, they said, 'Well, Hey, listen, we're looking for someone to lead a digital transformation, to set up a membership, and we think you are the right guy.' And I was saying, 'Okay, let's find out.' I'm intrigued because what I really loved about citizenM is that they took a white sheet of paper and they said, Well, what is the ideal customer journey that we would like settle. With choices do we make? And specifically, what don't we do?' And that is something so obvious, but so new at that point, so that I was really immediately inspired by it. citizenM is truly a dream company. We really want to dream big, build great stuff. And that actually got me there. So that is now seven years ago. And I still enjoy it. Although the real life was a bit different from what I expected it to be. But I guess. A lot of folks will recognize that. Karen Stephens- 00:08:09: Yeah, I think that's always the way, isn't it? Yeah. So now you're the Chief Product Officer at citizenM. As Chief Product Officer, you're at the helm of driving innovation. So as you mentioned, it started as an innovative company. Now you're taking that forward. Can you tell us about the journey behind launching the paid subscription program for the guest loyalty? So that is really intriguing for us. So how has that program been received by the guests and what kind of impact has it had on loyalty and overall guest experience? Casper Overbeek – 00:08:37: Yeah, happy to. Before I was the Chief Product, I was actually the Chief Customer Experience and the Chief Digital. I did all these kinds of roles. A lot was about connecting a successful front-end and guest experience to a back-end that actually avoided to get too much into legacy and complex problems. And the paid subscription is actually one of the best displays of that. Because at a certain point we said, 'Hey, we recognize that our guests, they don't want to go into these typical traditional loyalty programs. But they do want to be recognized for their loyalty and they want to have access to certain features or functionalities that we currently don't offer.' And we started by listening. 'Okay, like what is it then that you miss?' And there were two things mainly. First of all, there was the guaranteed availability because they said, 'Well, I want to stay in London, and I can stay on Monday and Tuesday, but Wednesday you're a fool. Why can you not arrange it for me?' And then the other part was price security. They said, 'Well, listen, we are willing to pay the price, but we don't want to be fooled. We don't want to discover later on that it's cheaper somewhere else'. And we took those two, and that's where we sort of built the first building blocks of our paid subscription, which was really emerging and on the rise during those days. But then when you are saying this is what we'd like our customers to experience, and then to organize that at the back end, that was then the second big challenge. And then we had to look into customer data, how to link it, how to be able to manage it, how to build an app, how to build a website to all be able to service it. And then when we were about to launch it, we were still in the middle of COVID. So we actually have very little opportunities to actually test this. That only came after. Karen Stephens- 00:10:23: Right. Well, you hit on two really interesting things. So I've talked to a lot of people about loyalty programs, even subscription loyalty programs. This is the first time that I've heard something around guaranteed availability, guaranteed rate. So that's something or guaranteed best — really, truly best available rate — rate parity, across all channels. So that I mean, I'm just sitting here, and I'm sure anybody listening on the podcast, we have a lot of professionals in revenue management distribution. Those are terms typically when you have a high OTA presence. Those are the things you got to give them. You got to give them parity and availability. I think it's so interesting that you've kind of flipped that model, and you're guaranteeing that to your most loyal guests. So first of all, kudos. Wow. That's amazing. Second of all, how does that work with other distribution partners? I'm really curious about that. If you can share. Casper Overbeek – 00:11:10: I think there's three things to say about this. The first one is that we made it a paid subscription, and the paid subscription made that as we asked for a commitment, but you get instant access. And we are not the only ones with some kind of guaranteed or semi-guaranteed formula. But we say, 'If you're willing to pay, we will give it to you.' The second part has to do with the availability itself. That was one of the biggest discussions because we didn't know what we would say yes to. So we said 48 hours in advance, we can still manage it with our reservations, demand, and revenue management gain, so to speak. And up till now, I think we had one day on an event in San Francisco that we had to say no, but for the rest, we always found a way. So we proved it worked, and we now have like 45,000 members that are very, very active. So that we solved. Then the rate parity, the revenue management, on the OTA. Yeah. That's interesting, but we already left that a while before. So we already said to OTAs, we no longer guarantee, and we are sort of accepting the consequences of that. And actually the OTAs were not so concerned. Well, I cannot speak on their behalf, but because we had it in a closed environment and where you had like a paid setup, like real subscription model. Yeah. Basically it was a little bit less threatening for the game, the day play. So I think we've sort of found the sweet spot that has been stress-tested over time. And that is now something that definitely works for us. Karen Stephens- 00:12:42: Wow. So that, I think, you hit on a lot there that I hope our listeners are really key in on. Fenced environment. So you can still work and play the game. Obviously, distribution is a complex game, and there's a lot of different markets, a lot of different demand. But if you're interacting with your guests directly, either that's through a loyalty program or communicating with them through they've signed up for communications, newsletters, you know who they are, you're marketing to them, then you're able to maintain certain offers for your most loyal guests. I mean, is that a good way to encapsulate that? Casper Overbeek – 00:13:12: We basically say 15% of the best rate that is out there. So that's basically what we guarantee. We make it very simple and very visible in the booking flow that you can have a look. Ah, you can compare the rates. We also track, once you're a member, we track how much you saved. You can see that on a monthly or yearly basis just for your own satisfaction. Usually that changes like, ah, yes. And then when the rest of the rates are concerned, yeah, that's where we are still in line with some of the OTAs. So yeah, it's working well. Karen Stephens- 00:13:44: That's wonderful. Publicly available rates. That's great. So do your loyalty members have a portal or how do they look and see how much they've saved over time? How do you communicate that? Casper Overbeek – 00:13:53: A good question. Well, in parallel of the subscription, we also launched our guest app. And we launched the guest app basically to enhance our customer experience. So you can control your entire customer journey from booking, check-in, check-out, but also doing the curtains and the lights in your room, the costing of your favorite stuff or watch TV. You can do everything with our app, the invoices. We also now have an SMB version of it. So that was there and we had both of them running in parallel. But what we now find out is that this top tier of loyal guests are also the ones that are using the app most. And that made us realize, 'Okay, listen, the members are our top tier. So we need to have a managed section and all the things.' But what I think is one of the again, like a flip thinking, we started by the guest experience. Like what does the guest or the customer need? And then we build the app instead of like, 'Hey, we have an app.' And most probably want to have people made their bookings through it because it's like a commercial drive. Or we started by the guest experience. This for us is still a discovery, I'll be completely honest. Because how do you know what kind of features or things our members would like to see? So we look at other apps that we know. We have a lot of webinars and contact with members. And then we just test and learn and we use A/B testing and all kinds of other methodologies to make that better. Karen Stephens- 00:15:21: Wow, I think I love that starting from a guest experience lens. And I think that's so important because all of us think about, 'Okay, I want people to adopt this, or adopt that because it's good for me commercially.' But you absolutely hit on it. If it's not delivering value to the customer, they're not going to use it. Casper Overbeek – 00:15:39: And they tell us. And what I like about it, because we call it reverse thinking. The reverse thinking —- it's also one of the key principles in citizenM, that we start by the guest experience, the desired guest experience, and then we take everything to make it happen. And it's so obvious, but to make it in practice is not always easy because you need to make choices, you need to make sacrifices. But what I like about it is that if we look at customer engagement, we have it in multiple levels. We have some micro-feedback tools. So basically at every step of the journey, we ask, 'How do you like it? Give us a thumbs up. Give us a thumbs down.' They do it a lot. We are actually through Slack. We are connected to that feedback directly. So I get like, I think about 100 messages a day of guests wanting to tell me something. Then we have a number of webinars and we try to organize at least 10 events a year to go into a dialogue to also use, bring back that feedback. 'Hey, this is what we observe. What do you think about it?' And we get people wanting about ironing, about laundry services, about the FMB menu, but also about this many section or anything. And then the third option is that there is even a number of members that got my phone number, and then they set up a WhatsApp group and they say, 'Hey, I want to stay in London, Victoria next week. Can you book it for me? Or can you help me? Or we could be there.' or, 'Hey, we have that.' And that's actually fantastic because if there's anything new, I can text them and they respond instantly. Karen Stephens- 00:17:07: That is incredible. That is a level of customer feedback. I don't think I've ever — and I've been in the customer feedback game for a long time. So I think that is incredible. Great. So I really want to talk a little bit more about innovation, but also how, you know, operational efficiency. So I hear you think there's a softer side to innovation. So what does that mean to you? And how do you ensure that technology isn't just streamlining operations, but also enriching the guest experience? So I think, as you mentioned, you know, people can get excited about all these things, but then you need to take that feedback and actually operationalize it. So you can talk a little bit about that. Casper Overbeek – 00:17:46: And when you say operationalize it, you mean how we do it in practice? Let's say in the hotels, or how do we operationalize our innovation tracks? Just that I understand. Karen Stephens- 00:17:56: Let's first talk about the hotels, because I think for a lot of operators out there, it's like, 'Wow, this is great.' Like, okay, you have an app and you have all this feedback coming in. But then at some point, you have to roll that out across. So, yeah, let's talk about that piece of it. Casper Overbeek – 00:18:10: So we have a bottom line and a cost management. We also have a CFO. So I recognize that pressure in full. And what I think we developed or try to develop is also to make it logical also from a cost sense and also from an implementation sense. One of the best examples, I think, is our housekeeping policy. So we basically, in the corona period, we discovered, yeah, okay, a guest don't want typically someone in their room, and they want to have control of their housekeeping. So we developed some tech features that would allow guests to sort of say, 'I want my room cleaned on these days, and not on these days.' And then that eventually led to that guest to tell us, like, 'Okay, but listen, we like that by default.' So it's actually something that was a service to our guests. So to let us know, 'Do you want your room cleaned or not?' It became actually a cost-efficiency driver. It became essentially like the door hangers with like the tons of detergent or anything that everybody recognizes. But what is the big difference is here? Is that we connected it to our housekeeping systems of my housekeeping partner. So now it's not that the housekeeper discovers it the moment that she is already or he is already in front of the door. No, they can already cater on it. And we develop algorithms on how we can predict how many of our guests need actually in the service. And that is something that started. We want to stay away from the, let's say, imposes? So we really say is the choice is at our guests. And this is one way we make it very easy for our guests to let us know what they want, but we can also operationalize it in the most efficient way. And these examples, they happen everywhere. We have it in F&B. We have it in the check-in. I could talk about our employee app that we now have that allow ambassadors, as we call our frontline staff, for very typical to record incidents. So something is happening. Like what a damage in a room or an elevator is broken. The time that it takes for someone to go there, and then go back to some kind of front desk to fill out all kinds of forms and everything. We took it away by the employee app that basically is. And we call it Mamba, that basically to allow to fill out incident management forms on the spot. But not only that, also triaging it. Like, is this a maintenance issue or is it actually a tech issue? Or is it actually just a guest that needs a little bit of extra comfort? So that's how we are also able to bring in these kinds of smaller efficiencies. And we measure that by even by minutes per day that we win because of that. Karen Stephens- 00:20:47: Wow. That's fantastic. And I think that that really resonates. You know, it's operational efficiency means that you can save on staffing costs. You can be more efficient with how you use your team. And also, I think it also lends to staff satisfaction. I imagine for your ambassadors, it's easy for them to do their jobs and they feel like they have the right amount of people. Can you talk just a little bit about employee impact there? Or is this a fair statement? Casper Overbeek – 00:21:09: Yeah, I find that one of my own key learnings this year, because if you look at any review or trip advice or anything, and you type in citizenM, and you ask, like, why do people like citizenM? Very often our frontline staff. The ambassadors come back. So it's something that we need to cherish. And it's really part of our what we call secret sauce on what makes citizenM a citizenM. And for a while we were focusing on it, and not so much in the hotels, but when we were defining innovation, we were looking a lot like, Okay, the customer experience is empowered by, an ambassador experience.' So we knew that, but we didn't really know yet in practice what it means. And also we already had an employee app before, but we launched it with some features that we thought were nice for them. But we thought about it for more support of us, and we didn't really go into it. Now we launched it really going into the hotels, trying to find out what drives them, and really to see if we can provide solutions for that. So to give an example, we have iPads in a room, to control your room. If you go into your room and your iPad is broken, you call the front desk and you say, 'Hey, my iPad is broken' But very often, it's just a reset of the iPad, that is needed. And then it's certain, of restart the iPad. And for them, it was like, 'Wow, this is so nice.' Another thing was another example is that if you look at our F&B menu, we have like casual food for folks that just want to have a bite. That's how we also position it. So you look on your app or on our website to see what the menu is. And then you say, 'Ha, I would like to have a pizza.' And then the ambassador has to say, 'Oh, sorry, we are sold out.' So we gave the option to control the F&B menu. And for them, that gave a level of autonomy, like, okay, I'm in charge of what's going on. And if I would, I'm sitting here at a desk, I would never imagine that these were the things that were bothering them most. But by actually listening to them, we find out these funny, fun stuff. And then we also see it back in all the surveys that we do on employee digital engagement, for instance. Karen Stephens- 00:23:28: Yeah, I think basically what you're talking about is sitting on one of my favorite things, which is technology and innovation exists to make our lives easier. And you're allowing your ambassadors to spend more time in front of guests doing what they love to do, why they took the job instead of running up and resetting an iPad or telling somebody, bumming somebody out because we're out of pizza. They can just remove it from the menu. So they spend more time doing what they love. Casper Overbeek – 00:23:53: Yeah, Karen, you could work with us, because this is exactly the way we also look at digital. I think the days of like, Hey, look at this cool tech feature stuff', Blah, blah, blah, oh, and that's gone. It's so quickly, everything is hygiene. But if we can discover what is truly moving, and making lives of either our guests, or our members, or our employees better, and take that as a starting point, and then draft whatever roadmap we have to make it happen, then we are much closer to success. And then if we even on top of that, find a way to have like continuous feedback loop to iterate on it and not to be afraid to make a mistake here and there, because we do that a lot. I mean, yeah, you try out and sometimes it doesn't work or yeah, it works for us at least. Karen Stephens- 00:24:36: That's fantastic. Okay, I have one last question for you. So looking to the future, how do you see the intersection of digital innovation and personalization continuing to evolve in hospitality? Casper Overbeek – 00:24:48: I would like to know that as well. Yeah, automatically you think AI. What I observe, I would say,. I think that the need for personalization is, it becomes bigger and bigger. And I think hospitality is only touching the surface of it. If you come to your favorite place, very often you're recognized, let's say, the fifth or the sixth or the tenth time that you're coming there. But not if you've already been at somewhere in another chain or the same chain in another branch. So I think that that kind of personalization, when it comes to recognition, we can really take the next step. So for us, for instance, I was talking about the employee app. If a member comes into the hotel, we are able to identify, let's say, through Wi-Fi ID. Well, I won't go into details there. And then the ambassador gets a small buzz on the employee app, like, 'Hey, a member is coming in.' And then you don't need to script. We don't want to script, but just be aware, someone coming in. And that can already be a first step on it. And if we are taking a number of steps throughout the customer journey, we believe that we can take the next step in personalization. That's what we call the European personalization. Because if you talk about Europeans, very often when you talk about personalization, we can just do some study there. They want to be recognized. The American side is more about customized personalization. It's about how can I make it mine? It's not for nothing that Starbucks invented the whole, like, I don't know how many flavors. And then that's what you like. And so in the US, it's much more about, can I select my room number? Can I already pre-assign, a certain services? Can I make sure that when I order F&B or order a beverage or food that I have it exactly the way I like it? And that's where, can I organize that I'm being picked up at the airport? That's what we're looking at. So that kind of personalization we are bringing in. And then you might ask, like, what is the role of AI in that? What we're looking into is, like, how can we learn faster? So the algorithms that sort of trigger this kind of behavior that we can iterate on it. Because then we can sort of make sure that it all goes to the right systems to deploy it. Because I started by saying that the backend was a challenge at the start when I was starting at CitizenM. I think we got a lot of it solved. But if we really want to deploy AI to help us there, that's first definitely the next step. Karen Stephens- 00:27:13: Okay, wow, that is absolutely fascinating. And I love the distinction of American personalization, which is customization versus European, which is more recognition, which really resonates with me. It's like, just say welcome back, but don't get too much in my program. Which I love. Casper Overbeek – 00:27:31: Yeah, just a funny anecdote, because also we have on the ESG and on the sustainability. And so at the point we thought, Okay, most probably everybody wants to know how long they can take a shower.' So we thought, what if we would put an indicator like the shower turns red or something like, 'Hey, now you're too long under it.' And we did a survey, and we got 12,000 responses, but this was not a good idea because what do people think when I'm in different city, when I'm on holiday or after busy working day, I want to indulge myself a little bit in my room. So I don't want to have some kind of rationalizing, like, 'Hey, watch out, you're standing too long in the shower.' So yeah, indeed, you're right in this one as well. Karen Stephens- 00:28:11: That's great. Well, Casper, it has been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for being my guest. It's been really great. Casper Overbeek – 00:28:17: Yes, thank you very much. It was great to talk to you. Outro- 00:28:24: Thank you for joining us on this episode of Hotel Moment by Revinate. Our community of hoteliers is growing every week, and each guest we speak to is tackling industry challenges with the innovation and flexibility that our industry demands. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review. And if you're listening on YouTube, please like the video and subscribe for more content. For more information, head to Until next time, keep innovating. View source
