The Offline Rebellion of the Most Online Generation - The Assignment with Audie Cornish - Podcast on CNN Podcasts

CNN

16 hours ago

Audie Cornish
00:00:00
I'm Audie Cornish and this is the assignment. There was a time when social media was supposed to connect us. Instead, it's starting to feel more like a trap.
TikTok clip
00:00:09
There's a really scary trend happening right now on the internet, and they're trying to take away your ability to browse anonymously.
Audie Cornish
00:00:15
For example, governments are rewriting the rules of the internet, especially for young people. In the name of safety, users are being asked to verify their identity for all kinds of sites.
CNN news clip
00:00:25
Now the congressman behind the bill argues it would essentially be like kind of showing your ID at a liquor store if you want to buy beer.
Audie Cornish
00:00:33
Feeds are shaped by algorithms we don't control, disinformation spreads fast, and some topics just disappear. And so the question becomes, how do you opt out of a system that insists you stay logged in? For some artists and organizers, the answer isn't new. It's folded, stapled, and Xeroxed, the zine.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:00:54
It's a practice, it's a medium, it's an art form, it is a meditation. I think every creator has their own definition on how they call it.
Audie Cornish
00:01:03
'Self-published magazines zines are handmade deeply analog no-to-low commitment for the reader no platform or password necessary and for a growing number of gen z artists and organizers zines aren't just nostalgic they're a way to connect and resist and create outside the algorithm but why would the generation raised on tweets tiktoks and Hashtag activism turne to paper? Stay with us.
Audie Cornish
00:01:38
'Like fanny packs, vinyl, and internet-free dumb phones, zines are back, revived by a new generation for the nostalgia, but not necessarily as novelty. Kennedy McDaniel first discovered zines in a college class working with high school students called poetry and social justice. And she wasn't in the class because she just like really loved poetry. It also brought her into community with other young people from her hometown of Baltimore.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:02:05
I did come across zines as a practice I was like, oh, this could be a cool way to kind of combine our works together.
Audie Cornish
00:02:13
'That same semester, Freddie Gray died while in police custody, sparking riots known to activists as the Baltimore uprising. McDaniel's first zine was a self-care guide for activists. And it was born out of those protests in 2015. And in a moment when activism was going viral online, she was drawn to something slower.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:02:36
'Instagram, TikTok, all of these different pieces of social media or spaces on the internet that were meant to connect us and increase engagement across the world. These have also been co-opted in many ways. There's a lot of disinformation and misinformation. There's lot of censorship and suppression of information. There are also even safety elements such as, do I want to be posting about a protest knowing that my face may be identified, my face maybe connected to my Instagram, the cops may open my phone using my face ID and now see all of this information online and now all of a sudden we're being tracked. And that wasn't necessarily always there when we first started thinking of hashtag activism and how the—
Audie Cornish
00:03:24
Or even now that I think of going back to the 90s you one of the things that was intriguing is people When they moved zines and zine culture and I think in a way became blogging culture Um, it's sort of there's a through line there. It's still you didn't feel like You were at the mercy of the algorithm you were at the mercy.. right like the sort of weight and impact and the infrastructure of the business of social media ...wasn't quite what it is today.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:03:57
Right, right, I think it was very person to person. There was no one else involved. Now there is an algorithm involved. There are many people behind an algorithm, right? That also have their own intentions and motivations in a way that they want to shape the world. And all of that adds into, okay, now my communication is being disrupted, it's being censored, it's been blocked from getting to who I wanted to reach. And when I think of zine making, there's just this level of freedom from start to finish. Thinking of an idea, sharing an idea. You do the research the way you want to. You reach out to who you find interesting and the voices you feel are important to document. You decide how you want it distributed and who you want share it with. There's just a level of free and independence at every step of the process.
Audie Cornish
00:04:49
Do you think there's a rise in zines also because people feel a little bit scared or people feel like it's safer politically?
Kennedy McDaniel
00:05:00
I think there are a few different reasons for the rise in zine making, and I definitely think that is one of them. I guess I would say more so, what feels important in this moment is community and the people that you have that are directly around you, the proximity.
Audie Cornish
00:05:20
Which is different than the megaphone, right? It's different from hashtag activism, what you're saying. Like you keep coming back to this idea of like safety and community. And I just sort of, I hear you cocooning, which is sort of interesting coming from your generation.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:05:35
I would say not cocooning, I would say rooting, getting people in where we are, connecting with each other underground. You're not always going to see, like, this big fanfare. Also knowing when it comes to, again, the things that we share on social media, there is this level of. For example, I've seen people post different fundraisers for feeding people in Palestine, and they're having a lot of challenges in part because people are responding and sending funds, but they're saying it right in the tagline, for Palestine, for Gaza, and it's like, whoa, this is about to get blocked immediately and these funds aren't going to go anywhere. And that's because you see something on social media, maybe you rush to action, you're not thinking it through, you're not in community necessarily. And then things kind of can fall apart when they're so broad versus if I'm with in my community, if I hand you a zine and you read it, there's something more intimate. There's something we're connected. There's Something that puts us all in community and in space with one another. And that deeper connection, I think, is where a lot of real power can be built. We're starting
Audie Cornish
00:06:49
to see big brands borrow the esthetics, for lack of a better term, of zines. There was a collaboration between the music site Pitchfork and Turnstile, Gucci, the most mass label ever, and is prone to a little reaching into the culture, dating apps. There's a visual element that I thought was just a 90s thing that now I'm actually seeing in the context of this. It is the imagery from zine culture. And what's the difference between that, right, and what you're doing? Or let me take that back. What's the different between a zine and like a product like that, right, something that looks like it?
Kennedy McDaniel
00:07:34
And one, shout out to TransStyle, also Baltimore Love. I think I will say, I would not necessarily say that that is a zine when you have a big backer behind it, like Bridgeport, that is now a magazine. But I think, you know, they are also a part of the subculture too, so that lends some...
Audie Cornish
00:07:53
But who's getting what out of it, right? When there's a collab like that, is it Pitchfork who benefits? Is it Turnstile? You know what I mean? It's kind of borrowing the shine.
00:08:02
'Yeah, and I'll say beyond the Turnstile piece, but just in a broader sense. I think that corporations always take whatever is hip or cool, whatever they can use to make more money, they will co-op that, whatever that is. So that can be a bit frustrating as someone who authentically makes zines from their heart and from their lived experience. And I'm not in it for the money. There are... Who is making seeds, who is in it to, you know, even live off of, like, this is not something that you're, it's gonna pay your bill to put food on the table by any means. And so I think any, I think larger groups, larger, you, know, something like pitchfork or I've seen other things too, where it's like, okay, like you have a lot of backing behind this, this being very professionally.They printed and distributed across the street.
00:08:54
Wait, are you saying they're industry, zine industry plants? You think there's some people who look a little too polished? You just said, I hear what you're saying.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:09:03
And it's always the bigger names when it's like a magazine, but then they'll do a smaller zine or that's a limited edition of your magazine. That's not necessarily a zine when it's, you know, from a national, you don't name. Um, but of course, you know, I don't want to gatekeep too much on the zines either.
Audie Cornish
00:09:24
That is the most Gen Z thing you've said, which is truly saying something. But you need to say it with your whole chest. You're like, some of y'all out here are not real zine people.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:09:35
Everyone should make zines besides corporations and billionaires. That would be my my my statement on the matter. I don't really want to hear their personal thoughts or insights. That's of no interest to me.
Audie Cornish
00:09:53
'Is there also something about the whole, you mentioned holding something in your hand. And it occurs to me that, you know, right now we're in an era where very few of us can like own, so to speak. Like our music in a way, we're like renting or leasing when it comes to streaming. If you use an e-reader, that's a book that could be yanked from your device. Like, I don't know, it feels like maybe... This obsession that Gen Z has with like vinyl or whatever is about being able to hold something and to own something. Yes, they're... And you can tell me I'm wrong.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:10:37
No.
Audie Cornish
00:10:38
Like, do you feel like you own things?
Kennedy McDaniel
00:10:40
Oh.
Audie Cornish
00:10:41
I feel like I used to.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:10:43
I don't own the house that I'm in, I don't own the music that I listen to, I don't own a car, I don 't own anything in this economy. So I think being able to hold materials, physical objects, especially just ephemera that is meaningful. Like there's a reason why your family has stacks and stacks of these old scrapbooks and you open them up and you can just go through them And that is... You know, not just a visual experience, but a spiritual and a physical one too. And I think that there is something really important about being able to hold this in your hand, to hold your own history, to hold things that feel meaningful to you, to whole things that have spoken to you. I get a very different feeling, I think, reading a poem that I see online versus is. I got an amazing zine work that you open an envelope and you take out this folded piece of paper and you unfold the paper and you read this poem. That is a moment in time and space that is so separate from this idea of just scrolling through, looking at something, scrolling through. It requires a level of attention and presence and... then it evokes this level of intimacy that I think is really powerful.
Audie Cornish
00:12:09
Artist and activist, Kennedy McDaniel, will be back in a moment.
Audie Cornish
00:12:18
You know, I feel like it's a little unfair. I'm kind of poking at you here in an anthropological way. I'm like, tell me about your culture, young person. But Kennedy, what questions do you have for me? Because in a way, I'm here, yeah, like at a big vintage, let's call it, media organization. I have friends who came up in magazines, friends who come up in the blogging era. Like what, yeah. I'm asking all the questions, but how do you think about all this? What do you wanna know?
Kennedy McDaniel
00:12:45
Yeah, and I will say I'm 28, so I don't feel like so young.
Audie Cornish
00:12:50
No, no, that's so young. I'll just stop you right there. I'll take it. Thank you. No, but my judge is like, how old were you like your freshman year of high school?
Kennedy McDaniel
00:13:02
What year was it? Oh, it was 2014.
Audie Cornish
00:13:05
Yeah, okay. Yeah. You're a child.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:13:13
As long as I can take it, I will.
Audie Cornish
00:13:12
Take it. Take it as long as you can. Keep moisturizing. That's all I'm going to say.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:13:17
Um, I think one thing that is coming to mind for me is like, um, the presence of these different black publications, right? Essence, Ebony, Jet Magazine, like these are things that I would see growing up in my house, or I would kind of like peek through, I'd see Jet Beauty of the Week, like, oh, who's she? Yes. These like images of black people and black beauty and... These are images that I don't see so much anymore, especially not in print. So I would love to hear about, and these magazines are still in existence, so what that experience was like, kind of living through the height of this. Where it is now and—
Audie Cornish
00:14:05
'It is — that's a good point that's a very good point first of all it's funny you bring up like Jet like those things were the size of zines, right? Like they weren't even they were these little booklets that you'd flip through and then later ebony and essence took over in that realm of kind of constantly showcasing black excellence that that was sort of the under girding of all of that. And you know, now that I think about it, two things happen. One, over time, and you are familiar with this, there was a sense of being anti-respectability politics, right? Respectability politics according to your generation is there's no amount of good dressing, good looks, class you can deploy that will protect you against instances of racial discrimination or harm, okay? So right away, that's different, right? So is that same person gonna pick up a zine or a magazine that's like, top five best dressed lawyers in Atlanta, you know what I mean? Which was the bread and butter of that stuff. And then the other thing, I think journalists like me, and I take full responsibility of this, I feel like there was a 90s era of black journalists who really made their way in the business. They're big names, and they were kind of the black journalists in the newsroom. And then there is a generation like me that followed that was like, well, I don't want to be pigeonholed. And there were moments where I really sort of fought against focusing on just the black community because I wanted to have the biggest possible reach. And I thought, oh, if I'm integrated into this world, I'll be able to bring these ideas and people like you right now. Into this story. There's a version of this interview that is with a white punk rock guy from Baltimore. You know what I mean? Like just with a different interview where that would have happened. But to your point, you're raising a good question. I'm going to think about now is like what was lost in that decision making? And the revival of kind of black media or Latino media, this sort of effort to refocus and create so-called safe spaces is reminding me that something was lost. In that line of decision-making.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:16:25
'Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Audie Cornish
00:16:27
Did any of that make sense?
Kennedy McDaniel
00:16:29
It made perfect sense. And I think, yeah, I mean, I have these conversations in my own life, in my career, around what does it mean to work outside of systems versus within them? Or when you're working. Yes, it's that. Yes, yes. So I think we all are contending with that in one way or another. And of course, it comes up in media and in the way that we relate to each other.
Audie Cornish
00:16:55
It's fun, I'm glad, it's so interesting that you asked that. What about the line of questioning made you ask that?
Kennedy McDaniel
00:17:01
'Well, I will say that what I've been really enjoying about certain black zine experiences I've been in, one of these is at the Black Zine Fair in New York, which is run by Sojourners for Justice Press. Amazing work, amazing organization. But one of the zine workshops there, people brought ebony magazines and essence, and being able to just really engage with those magazines and make zines out of those reinterpreting, re-engaging, re-storying, or like creating new narratives when it was there was a really beautiful experience and also a way to engage with history, right? Recent history, but not something that we're always looking through and not something that we really have a good version of today in a, you know, in a —
Audie Cornish
00:17:49
Or, in fact, that we're still arguing about today. So much of recent black political history, let's just say, or brown political history if you think of other communities, we're so fighting over it.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:18:03
Yes. Yes. And I think there's a lot to be said around voice, around what is the truth, around even we are, as the collective, we're very committed to creating spaces for Black zine makers. But we also know that we are not a monolith. So there are many voices even within that that we're not necessarily in alignment with, right? So there's this dance of how do we create a space that we really want everyone to feel like their voice can be heard and shared, while knowing that not every black person has a zine that will deeply resonate with me because we're Black. That's simply —
Audie Cornish
00:18:48
Yeah, and depending on where you are in the country, the politics are going to feel very different in that zine.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:18:55
Absolutely. Politics, priorities, yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:18:59
So we've talked so much about kind of why your generation might be interested. We've talked about why you're interested as an artist. What's your advice or takeaway you want people to have? Who are going pick one up? Or who wouldn't have typically, right? Because I'm seeing them very suddenly, like there was a new newish bookstore that opened in my town and there was, a wall of zines. And I was like, what? You know, and you open them up and sometimes it's words, sometimes it is pictures. And the thing you say in your mind is enormous is, what is this? What is this and who is this for? So give me some takeaways.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:19:37
Yes, I would say that zines are by everyone and for everyone. So if you are someone who is seeking any form of connection, community, information from a source that you might not find or that might be different from the mass media that you are tired of potentially. You might be interested in picking up a zine. Now, there are many zines that don't speak to me. That's why I also talk so much about black zine making, because I want people to know, just because a certain subsection of zines have never called to you before, there is a section that does, based on your interest, based on, maybe it's music, maybe it your creative hobbies, maybe it is your politics or your art, whatever it is, there zines about it, And they're made by people who have. Experiences that you might resonate with or that you might learn from. So I think if you are interested in having this moment of connection and this moment of intimacy, of really understanding the thoughts and experiences and feelings one individual to another, I think that you should pick up a zine and see what's inside.
Audie Cornish
00:20:56
I think my takeaway is that if I pick up a zine now, I'll know that I'm looking at something that is a window into a person's mind and expression, untouched by the algorithm. Like now that is really striking me because our entire existence now is shaped by this thing we create online and that's shaped by algorithms. And all of a sudden you have this little book that's an expression of you that isn't put through that grinder.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:21:38
Absolutely. And it goes both ways.
Audie Cornish
00:21:40
'Do you see, like, an actual light bulb over my head now that I'm saying this? It's not like I don't understand self-expression, but I just don't understand, like why wouldn't you blog? Why wouldn't you, you know, there's so many other ways to do it, but there's something about what you're saying of, like no, no, you're guaranteed if someone hands this to you that it is untouched by that entire thing.
Kennedy McDaniel
00:22:04
'Yes, it is pure and it is relational. And I think a lot of the information that we receive from many other sources, it can be a dump and it can just, you're kind of, it washes over you. Yeah, a feed, right? Feed these atoms and it's like, but I think zines can disrupt all of that and take you out of whatever this space is, that many of us don't even want to be in, that we actually use so that we can be connected. And it's not serving us, and yet it's the only thing that we have. So zines are another thing, another tool that we could use to connect, one, with ourselves, right? Reflection, introspection, that can be done through zine-making. And two, connecting with one another and creating a sense of community, whether it's through— I read the zine and it's done and I felt this connection with someone. Or whether it's I've read this and I moved to action or this is a really interesting group and I want to do more in my community around this. Or whatever that call to action may be.
Audie Cornish
00:23:16
Without the pressure of likes, followings, of performance, of public performance. Like, do you even know how to do this stuff without likes? Like, what happened to you? Did you put out a zine and like look around like, like someone up vote me, what's happening?
Kennedy McDaniel
00:23:34
And I'll say that, I think is where something really special about zine making happens. When you're sharing it with someone, when you put it in someone else's hand, like there's this level of appreciation and care and gratitude. I think a level of respect and care that comes into sharing and trading zines too. And that can be a really special space.
Audie Cornish
00:24:00
'That was Kennedy McDaniel, one-third of the Blackberry Zine Collective, which is actually named for the fruit that grows in clusters, a nod to the power of folks working together, one page at a time. I want to thank you so much for listening. Come back next week.