After Marriage Equality: Growing Up Queer with Chinese Parents

SBS Australia

7 hours ago

To put it in perspective, it's like, what's homophobic to us... it's already progressive for my parents. Victor Wu
Credits:
Host: Wing Kuang and Bertin Huynh
Producer: Bertin Huynh, WIng Kuang, Dennis Fang
Art: Joanna Hu
SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Nguyen and Philip Soliman
Wing Kuang
This podcast was recorded on the land of the Cammaraygal people and Wurundjeri people. We'd like to pay our respects to Elders past and present and recognise their continuous connection to Country.
Wing Kuang
Welcome to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it is like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. My name is Wing. I'm a former Chinese international student,
Bertin Huynh
and I'm Bertin, a Vietnamese Chinese Australian. So Wing, I wanted to ask you, what does it mean to be a good Chinese child, especially a good son?
Wing Kuang
Oh, I don't think this is determined by me, but by our parents. For a long time, I think it's been the consensus that you need to be obedient and follow their wishes in order to be the good child, and especially if you're talking about son. Well, sons are very important in Confucius culture, you are supposed to do everything for your family.
Bertin Huynh
What if a fundamental part of who you are goes against that, like against their wishes?
Wing Kuang
What do you mean by that?
Bertin Huynh
Well, I'm gay, and let's face it, our Chinese parents are often more conservative than their western counterparts. In fact, my dad doesn't accept my sexuality as a gay man.
Wing Kuang
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that Bertin. But I also really appreciate that you are willing to open up in this podcast about your identity, and in fact, I think a lot of reports have shown that many people in our community who identify themselves as LGBT+ group might share similar experiences as you. So in this episode, we are going to ask the very question: how can we be filial children, but also be our authentic selves? Joining us is Lucy Xu, who is a writer and recent graduate of the University of Melbourne.
Lucy Xu
Hi, I'm Lucy. I use the label queer, and I go by she/her pronouns.
Bertin Huynh
And we have Victor Wu, who's a Hong Kong Australian filmmaker.
Victor Wu
Hi, I identify as gay and queer, and my pronouns are he/they.
Wing Kuang
So I want to start at the beginning. Tell me Victor and Lucy, what's your coming out story? And did being Chinese complicate this process?
Victor Wu
I did not really have a really traditional, or what people would think of a very stereotypical Chinese upbringing. When we were in Hong Kong, my mum worked for the education department, so she had a little bit of more of a progressive mindset. And also, I would say that I'm not neurotypical, so a lot of the social pressures that other people feel I don't necessarily feel. I don't feel the same pressure from my parents or from the families as others might. So I was aware, like growing up, that we were the only sons to our grandparents on our father's side, and they were always talking about how they never had any male grandchildren. And then we came along really late.
Wing Kuang
Can you bring us back to the day when you tell your mom that, 'hey, I'm actually gay'?
Victor Wu
In my family growing up, face to face discussions or conversations aren't necessarily that productive. I don't feel like people listen to each other. I'm sure a lot of Chinese people will identify with this. There's a lot of fighting, and I don't think people understand each other any more, as you continue to argue. So a lot of the more serious conversations were actually conducted through written letters between family members, so that you could save your peace and have your train of thought and put your perspective forward and your argument forward in its entirety, without being interrupted. I wrote a handwritten letter to my parents and just kind of spelled out exactly how I felt, what my position was, which was that I'm not asking for approval, I'm not asking for acceptance. This is who I am. Like their decision, yes, is whether they accept it, but their decision affects whether they have a place in my life.
Bertin Huynh
I find it mad that you wrote a letter because my family's exactly the same. Any tiny thing will turn into a huge argument, and you're yelling and you're crying. And I actually also wrote a letter as well in Mandarin. Just like, there was no miscommunication at all, because I'm, like, if I write it in the language that you think in, and if you misunderstand, it's your fault. Like, it's not my fault. It's not I'm the one of the problem here. But you know, Lucy, you're laughing now as well. Is that kind of something? You know, your experience of coming out? Was it similar?
Wing Kuang
Did you also write a letter?
Lucy Xu
I've definitely written letters, just not about coming out. I feel like my experience was similar, but also the complete opposite in so many ways. I grew up in a very, very traditional family. My dad was a Chinese medicine doctor, my mom was an accountant, and they moved here when they were in their early 20s. They had very different, I guess, strict ideas about what they wanted for me in my life, and also, I have an older brother, both of us went through so much pressure. So for me, I left home as soon as I graduated high school and moved out. Was fully financially independent. My mum and I were actually no contact for a while, because I knew that she wouldn't be accepting of my sexuality, and I never got to come out to my dad, because he passed away when I was 13. It was only really after about a year of no contact with my mom, where both of us decided it was time that we should come back together. We did some therapy together, and it was actually through therapy, in one of our sessions that I came out to her.
Victor Wu
Well, props to her for agreeing to go to therapy, because I know my mom would never agree.
Bertin Huynh
Wing Kuang
If you don't mind, Lucy, would you be able to paint us a picture about what the therapy is like?
Lucy Xu
I think it was a very unique situation that my mum and I were in. I'm so lucky that she was even open minded enough to want to try therapy with me. I think that it was partially to do with the fact that my dad had passed away earlier on, so she was already processing a lot of grief through therapy, just with someone else. I had a therapist who spoke Mandarin and English, so he was actually like a translator for the two of us, because I'm sure that you guys can all understand what it's like moving between different languages with family and never really being fully fluent in either with each other.
Victor Wu
But especially with queer issues like, it's so difficult to articulate.
Lucy Xu
Yeah, I was so lucky. My therapist was a gay man who was Malaysian Australian, so, yeah, he really understood, like, all of the different, I guess, like, perspectives.
Victor Wu
Did you find him, like, through your queer networks?
Victor Wu
No, I actually just googled "gay Asian therapist".
Bertin Huynh
I feel like it sounds like that whole inability to have the right vocation to talk about queer issues with our parents is an issue that stops us from helping them understand us. Do you feel that?
Lucy Xu
Bertin Huynh
I feel like, in queer stories, this is a recurring narrative, especially in western queer stories, where we just cut parents off and we decide that, you know, our family's toxic, so no more family. But I feel like as people from a minority community, family is such a cornerstone of what makes us us. So I don't feel like cutting parents out or cutting family members out is as simple as it is for non-Chinese Australians or non-Chinese people in Australia. You know, why isn't it as simple for us?
Victor Wu
I think what makes it hard for us, to be kind of honest, is that there's more at stake. Often, it's easy to tell someone where there's nothing at stake, right? Like, white people would never understand why it's difficult to move out, right? Because for them, like their parents want them to move out, and like they would help them move out.
Bertin Huynh
Well, Lucy, you went no contact for two years?
Lucy Xu
Bertin Huynh
A little over a year. Was that painful to do?
Lucy Xu
Oh my gosh, it was the most painful thing of my life. I can't imagine ever going through that again. Yeah, thinking about that question of why, I guess Asian Australians find it so much more difficult to cut off family, at least for me, I'm not as close with my extended family, who all live in China. And so for me, the only real family that I have right now in Australia is my mum. And so there's so much more at stake. In many ways, it kind of feels like, if I don't have my mom in my life, then it's kind of like I'm just floating around. And I think also being Asian Australian, growing up in Australia, especially surrounded by a lot more, like majority white communities, you kind of feel like you exist in this third space where you are Australian, but you're not really, and you are Chinese, but you're also not really. And so it feels like when you lose something, it's so much more impactful, because you already didn't have, maybe as much as someone else who was white growing up in Australia.
Wing Kuang
There's something that both of you have mentioned that really struck me, like Victor, you mentioned that you are the youngest son of the family, while Lucy, you said you are like the daughter for your mother. I just wonder, because LGBT plus is not just about sexuality, it's also about your understanding about your gender identity and also the relationship. But our own family relationship is so sex bias or gender bias in this way, like you talk about you being the youngest son, and you talk about being the daughter to your mother. How do you find that and how does that create this extra layer for you to explain to your parents and come out?
Victor Wu
My situation is actually really interesting...
Wing Kuang
Because your family has two sons, you don't need to be the one that bear the child.
Victor Wu
Firstly, there's that. But also what's really weird or interesting is that my mum always wanted a daughter, and she thought I was going to be a daughter, and she kind of almost treated me like a daughter. But it's kind of like a gay son and a mother bond as well. That's quite common.
Bertin Huynh
Well, they say gay sons are the best daughters.
Victor Wu
Exactly. So I did kind of have that relationship with her. And even growing up like, I think when I was born, people go, Oh, that's a beautiful baby girl, and she would be really happy, because she thinks she said that my face was like, fine when I was born was fine, and more like girls, and people would think I was a girl, and she would be really happy so and I've got lots of pink things, for some reason.
Lucy Xu
My mum compared to, I would say, her peers and her friends, she's also definitely more open minded, especially with my dad passing away. I think that changed a lot of her ideas about life. But certainly I think she does have quite traditional expectations for me. You know, growing up, she took me to ballet class, and I was always like her little baby, her beautiful daughter. I remember getting my ears pierced at 18, and she was crying because she's like, no, you have holes in you, like you're not perfect. And it's so funny because, like, if you look at me now, I have bleached brows. I'm probably just like everything that isn't a stereotypical Asian daughter image. But I think as my mum has grown with me, her ideas of what it means to be a good child and a good daughter has changed, and overall, I think she cares more about the values that I have inside me, and I respect her so much I have so much love and just, yeah, I worship her. She's just the most amazing person in my life.
Wing Kuang
Do either of you feel like you owe something to your parents? Because as a heterosexual, I have always felt that this is how my parents tried to pressure me when I was a kid.
Bertin Huynh
Even though my dad doesn't accept who I am and probably will never accept where he likes. We will go to family functions. I will go with my fiance to family functions, and he'll pretend both of us don't exist, but at the same time, like I do feel like I owe him a lot, like he was a refugee came to Australia with the clothes on his back and the passport in his hand, and has managed to kind of raise two children on his own. He's a single father as well, despite all the unpleasantness of coming out, and here's the homophobia, I can't hate him for it, because I feel like I owe him something. So that's what I feel like. Why we want to ask this question,
Victor Wu
To put it in perspective, it's like, what's homophobic to us, like, it's already progressive for my parents. One example is that when we first came to Australia, we went to an evangelical Christian church that my dad's old childhood friend who had been living in Australia for a little while, went to because we just wanted to find community and friends, right? And then we stopped going. It was because my mom came back one day, like from church, and she was talking about how vicious the people were about gay people, and how cruel they were, and and then, which is progressive, right? And then she follows up by saying that, you know, gay people are just mentally ill. They just need to be treated like it's, on one hand, progressive, but then on the other hand, still homophobic, right? So it's quite a lot of conflict, because they will have what can be considered homophobic views. But I won't ever say that they're homophobic people.
Bertin Huynh
And Lucy, what about you?
Lucy Xu
I'm so sorry that you're experiencing that conflicted relationship with your parents, but I also, sadly, fully relate to how you feel. Yeah, it's always this tension. I think I definitely still feel that I owe a lot to my mum. I've said it so many times already, but, yeah, I have so much respect and love towards her. But it's also so funny, because I think that, because I'm a daughter, some of her expectations of me, I've fully exceeded, and others, maybe not so much like when it comes to my sexuality, I think it's always going to be complicated with her. I also agree. I don't think that I would say that she's homophobic, but she certainly understands the issue in a different way. I think she always will, but I also have kind of come to peace with that, because I know that she'll be there for me when I really need her, and I'll always be there for her when she needs me the most. And I think overall, that's what's more important to me.
Wing Kuang
I want to ask a question about visibility, because I'm coming from a really privileged position for this in this episode, because I'm heterosexual, and my parents wouldn't have to think that, okay, if I was gay, someday I will I'm un-gay But I do have lots of gay friends, and I also find it really difficult to educate my parents that, look my friends are gay and it's their right to pursue who they love. My mom will always come back and say, yeah, maybe when he turns 30, he will become straight again. But a couple of years ago, I found a turning point. One of my cousin's friends who's quite close to my mom, came out as a lesbian and entered a really stable, long term relationship with her girlfriend. She was really happy. And my mom watched how that relationship flourished, and somehow it helped her understand, oh yeah, being LGBT, being lesbian is actually not bad. Like she even asked me, are you really sure that you are straight? Like, maybe finding a girlfriend will be much better than finding a boyfriend. But I spot the difference. It's because she saw someone who is a lesbian and she found out, oh, there's no difference, and they can live a way much better, yeah, maybe much better life.
Victor Wu
They don't have to serve a man.
Wing Kuang
And it just makes me think, like it makes me think into your stories, that your parents feel it's very difficult to accept your sexuality. Do you think that, though, if they see that you are very happy, you are having a great time with your partner, despite you having the sexuality that he disagrees with, they will actually go and accept that, because at the end of the day, they love you?
Victor Wu
That really resonates with me. It's 100% what I feel. In fact, that's like the main message of my film is that it's the ordinary, everyday visibility, seeing people in our own communities, not seeing something in the media, seeing some people in our schools, our workmates, not something presented in the media that's going to change their minds. And ANTRA, an advocacy and support group for queer Chinese people in Australia and New Zealand, one of their main projects is just to connect parents who have just discovered or that the kids have newly informed them of their gay or queer identity, to connect them with other parents who have already gone through that journey and accept the kids and to see all these other wonderful queer kids who are, you know, successful people, healthy people you know. And that's like their main goal.
Lucy Xu
I think, also by bringing your community and your lived experience in to your relationship with your family in those little everyday moments, it slowly, like, changes the way that they see just the topic of sexuality in general differently. Like for me, almost all of my friends are queer, and I'll just get my mum to meet them when we're hanging out. I'll name drop them all the time, tell them just casual things, like, oh, so and so got a boyfriend, I'm so happy for them, and I think it's just those day to day interactions that you have with your communities that really changes the way that they view topics that might come across as scary or painted differently in the media.
Victor Wu
I think part of the problem is because the narratives in the media and storytelling are still so much around pain and tragedy and loss, right? And it's because we don't have these positive stories that queerness equates to sadness and death and tragedy and pain.
Bertin Huynh
How do you feel about that? And how do you know what you're trying to achieve if you know your film as well?
Victor Wu
Yeah, the film is called Freely Flourish 綻放, which means to blossom in Chinese. It's set in the marriage equality debate. The inspiration for the film was not actually that, even though that was where it came from, the inspiration was actually seeing hopeful narratives, because during the pandemic. I wanted to watch something that was light hearted and that could lift me from that, you know, the darkness of a) the aftermath of the marriage equality debate, which had such a destructive impact, you know, in our communities and for trans people, like the most vulnerable people, trans community, school age kids, queer young people.
Wing Kuang
And since we've been talking about media, I want to mention this classic Chinese film in 1983 and I think you both know which one I'm talking about, Ang Lee's the Wedding banquet, the classic of the classic, which is also having a remake in 2025 under the same name, also talking about how gay couples try to hide the fact that they are gay and they get married to the Asian parents, because we're saying, yes, the issue is still ongoing. But it also gets slightly different from your perspective. Do you see that nowadays, in 2025 the thing that we deal with, its core is still the same, but maybe its surface is becoming different, because at the end of the day, the society is making progress?
Victor Wu
It's really dealing with the issues that our gay queer community deals with. Like in the past, it may have been dealing with your parents and their homophobia, but nowadays, because they see that legal changes, you know, especially in western communities, are here. I think the moral compunction is not as present, even though some of you yourself have described there's still a fundamental unacceptance or homophobia, but I think largely that's not as present, and it's kind of actually a parent dealing with how will the community think of us? That's the main tension point.
Lucy Xu
It's kind of the perspective has changed now more onto a wider lens and how sexuality is seen on a wider spectrum, not just from immediate family. I haven't been able to see my extended family in China since before COVID, so it's very long overdue. I remember telling her, Oh, you know, mom, like, I'm so scared, you know, I feel like I've changed so much since then. I'm so worried that our family's gonna judge me, especially because now I look more outwardly queer as well. And she was like, Lucy, they're always gonna judge you.
Victor Wu
That's a really mature and a really kind of profound perspective that your mum is.
Lucy Xu
I think that's so true, though, and I think it carries out into every single situation with family. So I'm taking that forward now. Is my advice always gonna judge you. You just have to be at peace with yourself and keep going along.
Wing Kuang
We talk about aspiring queer Chinese Australian leaders in the community. For example, we have William Yang, like the great photographer, photographing the Mardi Gras like in the 1970s, 1980s and we also have Penny Wong, the foreign minister, who got married last year. They are all about 40. For young queer Chinese Australians, what kind of leader or what kind of figures you want to see support the community, for example?
Lucy Xu
I think there are already some really great role models that exist for queer Asian Australians, or just queer marginalized younger people. I think that the power of social media has really brought that to the front.
Victor Wu
Firstly, I just want to mention that in Sydney, there's this really amazing collective called queer worship, and it's founded by queer Asian people. And I think the perspective that might be missing is like they may not be visible to the mainstream, but they're definitely there for our community. It's like we only realize their significance, like in hindsight. There's already a kind of people doing amazing things and leading the community, creating community, but we're not going to really learn about them as household names till much later.
Lucy Xu
Yeah. Speaking on this made me think of a lot of grassroots community run organisations and collectives that are doing some amazing things to bring the community together. Off the top of my head, there's some amazing magazines, like Liminal magazine. I think of HOISZN, which I think is run in Melbourne. I think even, like event collectives, they do a lot of work in Melbourne as well. There's just so many amazing community run organizations that are happening. But yeah, like you were saying, it's just they're not being platformed in the same way because they haven't been out in the world for as long.
Victor Wu
For young people, mainstream media is dead.
Bertin Huynh
Victor Wu
Yes, you're never going to see these people on TV, quite frankly, because it's all social media and like, we were both saying it's all grassroots. So they're not going to be, I don't think they're going to be famous, like we understand in the older generation, or even my generation, it's going to be quite different.
Bertin Huynh
Let's wrap things up. So in a single sentence, Lucy, why don't you start? How can we be good Chinese children and our authentic selves?
Lucy Xu
Lead with love and compassion, and expect that of your family as well.
Victor Wu
Yeah, I think it's going deeper, not about kind of the superficial things of what your parents or your community expect, but it's like a deeper understanding of their fundamental hopes for our community, for us, which is to sort of thrive and flourish. And part of that is really allowing ourselves to discover who we are and showing our families, the people closest to us, who we are and the joy that we have in that.
Wing Kuang
Thank you so much for joining the show.
Victor Wu
So glad you guys invited us.
Lucy Xu
Yeah, genuinely, thank you so much. This is honestly such an amazing platform.
Bertin Huynh
You've been listening to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it's like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. This episode is hosted by Wing Kuang and me, Bertin Huynh, produced by myself, Dennis Fang and with support from Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Nguyen and Philip Solomon. The artwork is by Joanna Hu.
Wing Kuang
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