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SBS Australia
25-06-2025
- Entertainment
- SBS Australia
After Marriage Equality: Growing Up Queer with Chinese Parents
To put it in perspective, it's like, what's homophobic to us... it's already progressive for my parents. Victor Wu Credits: Host: Wing Kuang and Bertin Huynh Producer: Bertin Huynh, WIng Kuang, Dennis Fang Art: Joanna Hu SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Nguyen and Philip Soliman Wing Kuang This podcast was recorded on the land of the Cammaraygal people and Wurundjeri people. We'd like to pay our respects to Elders past and present and recognise their continuous connection to Country. Wing Kuang Welcome to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it is like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. My name is Wing. I'm a former Chinese international student, Bertin Huynh and I'm Bertin, a Vietnamese Chinese Australian. So Wing, I wanted to ask you, what does it mean to be a good Chinese child, especially a good son? Wing Kuang Oh, I don't think this is determined by me, but by our parents. For a long time, I think it's been the consensus that you need to be obedient and follow their wishes in order to be the good child, and especially if you're talking about son. Well, sons are very important in Confucius culture, you are supposed to do everything for your family. Bertin Huynh What if a fundamental part of who you are goes against that, like against their wishes? Wing Kuang What do you mean by that? Bertin Huynh Well, I'm gay, and let's face it, our Chinese parents are often more conservative than their western counterparts. In fact, my dad doesn't accept my sexuality as a gay man. Wing Kuang Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that Bertin. But I also really appreciate that you are willing to open up in this podcast about your identity, and in fact, I think a lot of reports have shown that many people in our community who identify themselves as LGBT+ group might share similar experiences as you. So in this episode, we are going to ask the very question: how can we be filial children, but also be our authentic selves? Joining us is Lucy Xu, who is a writer and recent graduate of the University of Melbourne. Lucy Xu Hi, I'm Lucy. I use the label queer, and I go by she/her pronouns. Bertin Huynh And we have Victor Wu, who's a Hong Kong Australian filmmaker. Victor Wu Hi, I identify as gay and queer, and my pronouns are he/they. Wing Kuang So I want to start at the beginning. Tell me Victor and Lucy, what's your coming out story? And did being Chinese complicate this process? Victor Wu I did not really have a really traditional, or what people would think of a very stereotypical Chinese upbringing. When we were in Hong Kong, my mum worked for the education department, so she had a little bit of more of a progressive mindset. And also, I would say that I'm not neurotypical, so a lot of the social pressures that other people feel I don't necessarily feel. I don't feel the same pressure from my parents or from the families as others might. So I was aware, like growing up, that we were the only sons to our grandparents on our father's side, and they were always talking about how they never had any male grandchildren. And then we came along really late. Wing Kuang Can you bring us back to the day when you tell your mom that, 'hey, I'm actually gay'? Victor Wu In my family growing up, face to face discussions or conversations aren't necessarily that productive. I don't feel like people listen to each other. I'm sure a lot of Chinese people will identify with this. There's a lot of fighting, and I don't think people understand each other any more, as you continue to argue. So a lot of the more serious conversations were actually conducted through written letters between family members, so that you could save your peace and have your train of thought and put your perspective forward and your argument forward in its entirety, without being interrupted. I wrote a handwritten letter to my parents and just kind of spelled out exactly how I felt, what my position was, which was that I'm not asking for approval, I'm not asking for acceptance. This is who I am. Like their decision, yes, is whether they accept it, but their decision affects whether they have a place in my life. Bertin Huynh I find it mad that you wrote a letter because my family's exactly the same. Any tiny thing will turn into a huge argument, and you're yelling and you're crying. And I actually also wrote a letter as well in Mandarin. Just like, there was no miscommunication at all, because I'm, like, if I write it in the language that you think in, and if you misunderstand, it's your fault. Like, it's not my fault. It's not I'm the one of the problem here. But you know, Lucy, you're laughing now as well. Is that kind of something? You know, your experience of coming out? Was it similar? Wing Kuang Did you also write a letter? Lucy Xu I've definitely written letters, just not about coming out. I feel like my experience was similar, but also the complete opposite in so many ways. I grew up in a very, very traditional family. My dad was a Chinese medicine doctor, my mom was an accountant, and they moved here when they were in their early 20s. They had very different, I guess, strict ideas about what they wanted for me in my life, and also, I have an older brother, both of us went through so much pressure. So for me, I left home as soon as I graduated high school and moved out. Was fully financially independent. My mum and I were actually no contact for a while, because I knew that she wouldn't be accepting of my sexuality, and I never got to come out to my dad, because he passed away when I was 13. It was only really after about a year of no contact with my mom, where both of us decided it was time that we should come back together. We did some therapy together, and it was actually through therapy, in one of our sessions that I came out to her. Victor Wu Well, props to her for agreeing to go to therapy, because I know my mom would never agree. Bertin Huynh Wing Kuang If you don't mind, Lucy, would you be able to paint us a picture about what the therapy is like? Lucy Xu I think it was a very unique situation that my mum and I were in. I'm so lucky that she was even open minded enough to want to try therapy with me. I think that it was partially to do with the fact that my dad had passed away earlier on, so she was already processing a lot of grief through therapy, just with someone else. I had a therapist who spoke Mandarin and English, so he was actually like a translator for the two of us, because I'm sure that you guys can all understand what it's like moving between different languages with family and never really being fully fluent in either with each other. Victor Wu But especially with queer issues like, it's so difficult to articulate. Lucy Xu Yeah, I was so lucky. My therapist was a gay man who was Malaysian Australian, so, yeah, he really understood, like, all of the different, I guess, like, perspectives. Victor Wu Did you find him, like, through your queer networks? Victor Wu No, I actually just googled "gay Asian therapist". Bertin Huynh I feel like it sounds like that whole inability to have the right vocation to talk about queer issues with our parents is an issue that stops us from helping them understand us. Do you feel that? Lucy Xu Bertin Huynh I feel like, in queer stories, this is a recurring narrative, especially in western queer stories, where we just cut parents off and we decide that, you know, our family's toxic, so no more family. But I feel like as people from a minority community, family is such a cornerstone of what makes us us. So I don't feel like cutting parents out or cutting family members out is as simple as it is for non-Chinese Australians or non-Chinese people in Australia. You know, why isn't it as simple for us? Victor Wu I think what makes it hard for us, to be kind of honest, is that there's more at stake. Often, it's easy to tell someone where there's nothing at stake, right? Like, white people would never understand why it's difficult to move out, right? Because for them, like their parents want them to move out, and like they would help them move out. Bertin Huynh Well, Lucy, you went no contact for two years? Lucy Xu Bertin Huynh A little over a year. Was that painful to do? Lucy Xu Oh my gosh, it was the most painful thing of my life. I can't imagine ever going through that again. Yeah, thinking about that question of why, I guess Asian Australians find it so much more difficult to cut off family, at least for me, I'm not as close with my extended family, who all live in China. And so for me, the only real family that I have right now in Australia is my mum. And so there's so much more at stake. In many ways, it kind of feels like, if I don't have my mom in my life, then it's kind of like I'm just floating around. And I think also being Asian Australian, growing up in Australia, especially surrounded by a lot more, like majority white communities, you kind of feel like you exist in this third space where you are Australian, but you're not really, and you are Chinese, but you're also not really. And so it feels like when you lose something, it's so much more impactful, because you already didn't have, maybe as much as someone else who was white growing up in Australia. Wing Kuang There's something that both of you have mentioned that really struck me, like Victor, you mentioned that you are the youngest son of the family, while Lucy, you said you are like the daughter for your mother. I just wonder, because LGBT plus is not just about sexuality, it's also about your understanding about your gender identity and also the relationship. But our own family relationship is so sex bias or gender bias in this way, like you talk about you being the youngest son, and you talk about being the daughter to your mother. How do you find that and how does that create this extra layer for you to explain to your parents and come out? Victor Wu My situation is actually really interesting... Wing Kuang Because your family has two sons, you don't need to be the one that bear the child. Victor Wu Firstly, there's that. But also what's really weird or interesting is that my mum always wanted a daughter, and she thought I was going to be a daughter, and she kind of almost treated me like a daughter. But it's kind of like a gay son and a mother bond as well. That's quite common. Bertin Huynh Well, they say gay sons are the best daughters. Victor Wu Exactly. So I did kind of have that relationship with her. And even growing up like, I think when I was born, people go, Oh, that's a beautiful baby girl, and she would be really happy, because she thinks she said that my face was like, fine when I was born was fine, and more like girls, and people would think I was a girl, and she would be really happy so and I've got lots of pink things, for some reason. Lucy Xu My mum compared to, I would say, her peers and her friends, she's also definitely more open minded, especially with my dad passing away. I think that changed a lot of her ideas about life. But certainly I think she does have quite traditional expectations for me. You know, growing up, she took me to ballet class, and I was always like her little baby, her beautiful daughter. I remember getting my ears pierced at 18, and she was crying because she's like, no, you have holes in you, like you're not perfect. And it's so funny because, like, if you look at me now, I have bleached brows. I'm probably just like everything that isn't a stereotypical Asian daughter image. But I think as my mum has grown with me, her ideas of what it means to be a good child and a good daughter has changed, and overall, I think she cares more about the values that I have inside me, and I respect her so much I have so much love and just, yeah, I worship her. She's just the most amazing person in my life. Wing Kuang Do either of you feel like you owe something to your parents? Because as a heterosexual, I have always felt that this is how my parents tried to pressure me when I was a kid. Bertin Huynh Even though my dad doesn't accept who I am and probably will never accept where he likes. We will go to family functions. I will go with my fiance to family functions, and he'll pretend both of us don't exist, but at the same time, like I do feel like I owe him a lot, like he was a refugee came to Australia with the clothes on his back and the passport in his hand, and has managed to kind of raise two children on his own. He's a single father as well, despite all the unpleasantness of coming out, and here's the homophobia, I can't hate him for it, because I feel like I owe him something. So that's what I feel like. Why we want to ask this question, Victor Wu To put it in perspective, it's like, what's homophobic to us, like, it's already progressive for my parents. One example is that when we first came to Australia, we went to an evangelical Christian church that my dad's old childhood friend who had been living in Australia for a little while, went to because we just wanted to find community and friends, right? And then we stopped going. It was because my mom came back one day, like from church, and she was talking about how vicious the people were about gay people, and how cruel they were, and and then, which is progressive, right? And then she follows up by saying that, you know, gay people are just mentally ill. They just need to be treated like it's, on one hand, progressive, but then on the other hand, still homophobic, right? So it's quite a lot of conflict, because they will have what can be considered homophobic views. But I won't ever say that they're homophobic people. Bertin Huynh And Lucy, what about you? Lucy Xu I'm so sorry that you're experiencing that conflicted relationship with your parents, but I also, sadly, fully relate to how you feel. Yeah, it's always this tension. I think I definitely still feel that I owe a lot to my mum. I've said it so many times already, but, yeah, I have so much respect and love towards her. But it's also so funny, because I think that, because I'm a daughter, some of her expectations of me, I've fully exceeded, and others, maybe not so much like when it comes to my sexuality, I think it's always going to be complicated with her. I also agree. I don't think that I would say that she's homophobic, but she certainly understands the issue in a different way. I think she always will, but I also have kind of come to peace with that, because I know that she'll be there for me when I really need her, and I'll always be there for her when she needs me the most. And I think overall, that's what's more important to me. Wing Kuang I want to ask a question about visibility, because I'm coming from a really privileged position for this in this episode, because I'm heterosexual, and my parents wouldn't have to think that, okay, if I was gay, someday I will I'm un-gay But I do have lots of gay friends, and I also find it really difficult to educate my parents that, look my friends are gay and it's their right to pursue who they love. My mom will always come back and say, yeah, maybe when he turns 30, he will become straight again. But a couple of years ago, I found a turning point. One of my cousin's friends who's quite close to my mom, came out as a lesbian and entered a really stable, long term relationship with her girlfriend. She was really happy. And my mom watched how that relationship flourished, and somehow it helped her understand, oh yeah, being LGBT, being lesbian is actually not bad. Like she even asked me, are you really sure that you are straight? Like, maybe finding a girlfriend will be much better than finding a boyfriend. But I spot the difference. It's because she saw someone who is a lesbian and she found out, oh, there's no difference, and they can live a way much better, yeah, maybe much better life. Victor Wu They don't have to serve a man. Wing Kuang And it just makes me think, like it makes me think into your stories, that your parents feel it's very difficult to accept your sexuality. Do you think that, though, if they see that you are very happy, you are having a great time with your partner, despite you having the sexuality that he disagrees with, they will actually go and accept that, because at the end of the day, they love you? Victor Wu That really resonates with me. It's 100% what I feel. In fact, that's like the main message of my film is that it's the ordinary, everyday visibility, seeing people in our own communities, not seeing something in the media, seeing some people in our schools, our workmates, not something presented in the media that's going to change their minds. And ANTRA, an advocacy and support group for queer Chinese people in Australia and New Zealand, one of their main projects is just to connect parents who have just discovered or that the kids have newly informed them of their gay or queer identity, to connect them with other parents who have already gone through that journey and accept the kids and to see all these other wonderful queer kids who are, you know, successful people, healthy people you know. And that's like their main goal. Lucy Xu I think, also by bringing your community and your lived experience in to your relationship with your family in those little everyday moments, it slowly, like, changes the way that they see just the topic of sexuality in general differently. Like for me, almost all of my friends are queer, and I'll just get my mum to meet them when we're hanging out. I'll name drop them all the time, tell them just casual things, like, oh, so and so got a boyfriend, I'm so happy for them, and I think it's just those day to day interactions that you have with your communities that really changes the way that they view topics that might come across as scary or painted differently in the media. Victor Wu I think part of the problem is because the narratives in the media and storytelling are still so much around pain and tragedy and loss, right? And it's because we don't have these positive stories that queerness equates to sadness and death and tragedy and pain. Bertin Huynh How do you feel about that? And how do you know what you're trying to achieve if you know your film as well? Victor Wu Yeah, the film is called Freely Flourish 綻放, which means to blossom in Chinese. It's set in the marriage equality debate. The inspiration for the film was not actually that, even though that was where it came from, the inspiration was actually seeing hopeful narratives, because during the pandemic. I wanted to watch something that was light hearted and that could lift me from that, you know, the darkness of a) the aftermath of the marriage equality debate, which had such a destructive impact, you know, in our communities and for trans people, like the most vulnerable people, trans community, school age kids, queer young people. Wing Kuang And since we've been talking about media, I want to mention this classic Chinese film in 1983 and I think you both know which one I'm talking about, Ang Lee's the Wedding banquet, the classic of the classic, which is also having a remake in 2025 under the same name, also talking about how gay couples try to hide the fact that they are gay and they get married to the Asian parents, because we're saying, yes, the issue is still ongoing. But it also gets slightly different from your perspective. Do you see that nowadays, in 2025 the thing that we deal with, its core is still the same, but maybe its surface is becoming different, because at the end of the day, the society is making progress? Victor Wu It's really dealing with the issues that our gay queer community deals with. Like in the past, it may have been dealing with your parents and their homophobia, but nowadays, because they see that legal changes, you know, especially in western communities, are here. I think the moral compunction is not as present, even though some of you yourself have described there's still a fundamental unacceptance or homophobia, but I think largely that's not as present, and it's kind of actually a parent dealing with how will the community think of us? That's the main tension point. Lucy Xu It's kind of the perspective has changed now more onto a wider lens and how sexuality is seen on a wider spectrum, not just from immediate family. I haven't been able to see my extended family in China since before COVID, so it's very long overdue. I remember telling her, Oh, you know, mom, like, I'm so scared, you know, I feel like I've changed so much since then. I'm so worried that our family's gonna judge me, especially because now I look more outwardly queer as well. And she was like, Lucy, they're always gonna judge you. Victor Wu That's a really mature and a really kind of profound perspective that your mum is. Lucy Xu I think that's so true, though, and I think it carries out into every single situation with family. So I'm taking that forward now. Is my advice always gonna judge you. You just have to be at peace with yourself and keep going along. Wing Kuang We talk about aspiring queer Chinese Australian leaders in the community. For example, we have William Yang, like the great photographer, photographing the Mardi Gras like in the 1970s, 1980s and we also have Penny Wong, the foreign minister, who got married last year. They are all about 40. For young queer Chinese Australians, what kind of leader or what kind of figures you want to see support the community, for example? Lucy Xu I think there are already some really great role models that exist for queer Asian Australians, or just queer marginalized younger people. I think that the power of social media has really brought that to the front. Victor Wu Firstly, I just want to mention that in Sydney, there's this really amazing collective called queer worship, and it's founded by queer Asian people. And I think the perspective that might be missing is like they may not be visible to the mainstream, but they're definitely there for our community. It's like we only realize their significance, like in hindsight. There's already a kind of people doing amazing things and leading the community, creating community, but we're not going to really learn about them as household names till much later. Lucy Xu Yeah. Speaking on this made me think of a lot of grassroots community run organisations and collectives that are doing some amazing things to bring the community together. Off the top of my head, there's some amazing magazines, like Liminal magazine. I think of HOISZN, which I think is run in Melbourne. I think even, like event collectives, they do a lot of work in Melbourne as well. There's just so many amazing community run organizations that are happening. But yeah, like you were saying, it's just they're not being platformed in the same way because they haven't been out in the world for as long. Victor Wu For young people, mainstream media is dead. Bertin Huynh Victor Wu Yes, you're never going to see these people on TV, quite frankly, because it's all social media and like, we were both saying it's all grassroots. So they're not going to be, I don't think they're going to be famous, like we understand in the older generation, or even my generation, it's going to be quite different. Bertin Huynh Let's wrap things up. So in a single sentence, Lucy, why don't you start? How can we be good Chinese children and our authentic selves? Lucy Xu Lead with love and compassion, and expect that of your family as well. Victor Wu Yeah, I think it's going deeper, not about kind of the superficial things of what your parents or your community expect, but it's like a deeper understanding of their fundamental hopes for our community, for us, which is to sort of thrive and flourish. And part of that is really allowing ourselves to discover who we are and showing our families, the people closest to us, who we are and the joy that we have in that. Wing Kuang Thank you so much for joining the show. Victor Wu So glad you guys invited us. Lucy Xu Yeah, genuinely, thank you so much. This is honestly such an amazing platform. Bertin Huynh You've been listening to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it's like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. This episode is hosted by Wing Kuang and me, Bertin Huynh, produced by myself, Dennis Fang and with support from Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Nguyen and Philip Solomon. The artwork is by Joanna Hu. Wing Kuang Follow Chinese-ish on your favourite podcast platform, or head to or the SBS Audio app.
SBS Australia
28-05-2025
- General
- SBS Australia
Sex-ish: The talk our parents never gave us
There is some expectation that sex should always be good... but I think there are seasons - there are times when it's summer and it's hot and heavy, and there are other times when it's winter and it's cold. — Ronald Hoang, Relationship and Family Therapist Credits: Host: Wing Kuang and Dennis Fang Producer: Bertin Huynh Art: Joanna Hu SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn Wing Kuang This podcast was recorded on the land of the Camaraygal people. We'd like to pay our respects to elders past and present, and recognise their continuous connection to Country. Welcome to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it is like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. My name is wing. I'm a former Chinese international student. Bertin Huynh And I'm Bertin. I'm a second-generation Vietnamese Chinese Australian. Wing Kuang I'm going to bring you to an awkward chat in this episode. Bertin Huynh Really, should I be nervous? Should I be scared? Wing Kuang Yeah, because this is something that our community isn't very good at talking about it. Bertin Huynh Oh, I think I have a good idea of what you mean. Wing Kuang We are going to talk about sex and dating too. Bertin Huynh But before we get any deeper into this episode, just a bit of a content warning that this episode may contain some graphic detail. You know, this is something I never spoke to my parents about. But this week, we have two experts to help us make this conversation just a little bit easier. Wing Kuang We have Hailey Lin, who is a psychosexual therapist, originally from Hong Kong, here with us. Welcome to Chinese-ish, Hailey. Hailey Lin Hello. Thank you for having me. Bertin Huynh And I have Ronald Hoang. He's a relationship and family Ronald. Ronald Hoang Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Bertin Huynh Hailey, starting with you. Could you just tell us really quickly exactly what you do in your job? What does a psychosexual therapist do? Hailey Lin So things like sexual dysfunctioning or something like gender identity issues or porn addiction, relationship difficulties, all of that. Wing Kuang And what's your job about, Ronald? Ronald Hoang Yeah, my focus is specialised in relationships, so things like communication and connection and working through any issues amongst couples. But of course, sex also naturally comes into the equation too. Wing Kuang Since we are all of Chinese heritage, it's so universally acknowledged that Chinese parents will only want us to be doctors or lawyers or engineers. And now one of you are sex therapist and one of you are offering consultation on relationships and dating and love. What's your family reaction about your career choice in the first dance? Hailey Lin I think my mom is pretty open minded, because I have, like, this long journey. I was a beginning social worker. I work in the sexual health field, so she's kind of like, okay, you're a social worker, but you just are working with, like, some, like, sexual health issues. So she finds that's okay, because you're just helping people. And then later I told her, like, Okay, I decided to study sexology and become sex therapist. I should go, Okay, if this is what you like, go, go for it. Wing Kuang Oh, you have a really cool mom. And how about you, Ronald? Ronald Hoang Oh my mom. I'm pretty sure she still doesn't know what I do. The way she describes it is, I work with crazy people, so she doesn't fully grasp what I do, but she's accepting. I guess you could say, I mean, in my extended family, they really wanted us to be like a doctor or lawyer or a pharmacist, and all of my cousins are pharmacists, actually. But I chose to take a different pathway so to begin with, it was confusing for her, but I think she understands it a little bit better nowadays. Bertin Huynh I think that crazy word is quite stereotypical of our community, right? We don't really understand and we don't really talk about our feelings and our relationships. Does that kind of come into play, especially when you have patients that are of Chinese descent? Ronald Hoang Oh, yeah, definitely. I think that is an aspect of Asian relationships where there is either very indirect communication, where they don't really speak about their needs, or don't really speak about certain topics. They're too sensitive about certain things, or sometimes the communication can be extremely direct, like too direct, using guilt and shame to have their needs met. But of course, that does damage to a relationship. Wing Kuang I was also just wondering, because you were mentioning that your mom was still very confused about your job. Is that also just because, like, this idea of reviewing your sex life, your relationship life, to the external third party, is not really a thing in a Chinese family. Hailey Lin Yeah, even I say like, my mom was open minded and supportive to my decision, but she doesn't talk to my relatives or her friends about what I do. So they would just tell them, oh, she was a social worker now doing psychotherapy things like that. So still, like, she can be like, open minded, but also she can be like, very conservative about that, because it is not the norm in our Asian culture, like talking about sex or intimacy or those, like, kind of. Like, pirate stuff. Bertin Huynh and then, like, on the back of that, then do members of your family or friends? Do they come to you because you have that qualification when they have issues? Or is that something that you do that's the line that you don't cross? Oh, Hailey Lin People will come to me. Yeah, of course. They will come to me. And sometimes they will say, oh, okay, I really need help, and stuff like that. So when I was, like, much younger. When I just graduated, I just try to be a good person. Like to be a savior. Okay, I will talk to you about this, but later, I've learned that, okay, I should be ready to set my boundary. Ronald Hoang I wouldn't say, when I talk with my friends that I provide them with therapy, though, that I would just be providing them with my insight or opinion, and it would be a lot more direct, you know, I would tell them my thoughts, whereas working with a client may not be the same. Wing Kuang Do you get a lot of Chinese patients who come to you because they were like, oh, this is an Asian therapist, or this isn't a Chinese therapist, so they will understand what I'm talking about. Hailey Lin Yes, like I do, I do get it because I am talking about sex in that vocabulary, it can be like an alien or foreign language when you speak about your genital past or even your intimacy. So they find it very difficult to open up to, let's say Aussie or a local therapist, because of the different cultural background they feel, oh, this is very difficult to tell them, like what they truly think, or what the real struggle is. They just couldn't have that understanding towards them. But there's not a lot of options for like, Chinese sex therapists. I think that's just two or three in particular. Ronald Hoang I used to work in an organisation, actually, and I would get a lot less Asian clients, but working in private practice, I noticed that I do get a lot more Asian clients who specifically come to me because they feel and they even directly say this to me because they feel that I would get them a bit better. And so they do open up, and they do come because they feel like I can relate to their culture. Wing Kuang Without revealing any details or privacy of your clients, what's the most asked question you have got from the Chinese community? Hailey Lin Just a hard one. So I feel like, because I am Asian, we don't have this therapy culture. So when they do come to us, they're just expecting, like, something like seeing a GP, like, Okay, how many sessions? Tell me, can I get a cure, or can I get a prescription? Tell me, like, how many sessions? Like, how many calls do I have to pay you to get the result? Ronald Hoang For me, I think one theme is the theme between choosing partner loyalty and family loyalty and juggling that dynamic. You know, do I meet my family's needs versus my partner's needs, which might not meet my family's needs, and that can create, as you can imagine, some tension there. There's also often, I notice, because a lot of us are migrants and come from various places that there is intergenerational trauma that's probably a little bit more frequent than other different kinds of backgrounds. Wing Kuang So we've gathered some questions from our young Chinese Australian community. Bertin, would you like to share the first one? Bertin Huynh Okay, so the first one's very, very simple. Neville asks: why is it so hard to find the right one? Ronald Hoang I think that in modern day society, especially with the introduction of dating apps, what I feel has happened is dating has been like a commodified game. It's become a thing where people are the objects in a game. And because of dating apps, there is an abundance of choice which creates the paradox of choice, which is basically a psychological effect. The more choices we have, the sadder or more upset we are with the choice that we make. And so because of this, we've become more choosy in our relationship. So we have a list of ticking boxes that we feel like we're trying to find in our partner, and it makes us more and more choosy and makes us less and less committed to a single person, because comparison is the thief of happiness. Bertin Huynh So from my perspective, as a sex therapist, I would say there's a because I know nowadays the models of society, it has a lot of like, different format of relationship, like we talk about, like, friends with benefit. We talk about open relationships, or even, like, ENM, like ethical non-monogamy. So that's a lot of format about relationships, and you have to find the right one. It could be, like, very difficult, yeah, because you have to, like, meet people who share very similar values. So it can make this very tough. Wing Kuang And this one is from Lisa, so I thought naturally you'd feel more sexually aroused when you are at your most fertile period of your cycle. But I felt like I was the opposite. Is this normal? Hailey Lin I feel like the sexual desire is case by case, like every person, like every person is different. So Some people, they feel like having, like, more sexual desire, because of the hormone, like when the ovulation happens and when you have your menstrual child cycle, because all the body hormones are fluctuating. So that's why you feel this urge to do something. We are all Chinese, but we have, like, different body quality or whatever, or different personality. And that's like, No. Wing Kuang And is it true that if you are having sex with your true love, the sex is much better? Hailey Lin Yes, yes. Because there are two aspects. One is very physical. It's more about the reflexogenic. And another part with sex is psychogenic, so it's more psychological, more emotional, and more about that, this deep connection, so you can actually have sex or make love. So I would say making love is like, like, more like a mindful feeling. Ronald Hoang I do also think that there is some expectation that sex should always be good, especially with your partner. And I think that's a myth, that's a very destructive myth that we can hold if we're rigidly holding to this idea that sex should always be amazing and passionate, but I think there are seasons, you know. There are times when it's summer and it's hot and heavy, and there are other times when it's winter and it's, you know, cold, and then, you know, and then there are other times when it's, you know, spring or autumn, when it's kind of lukewarm. Wing Kuang You said something that really struck me, Ronald, about like, sex even with your partner, is not always good, because my idea about romance and also sex pretty much come from all the trash fictions online, especially when I was still studying in China during my high school, like there were just so many, like, random fan fiction like nowadays, like looking back, you will feel that it's not biologically correct, like in the way how they describe all the sex scene, but this idea of having sex with someone you like is always good, has just been in my mind so long. So when I actually had my first sexual experience, it was actually really painful. What's more painful for me later is I didn't know where I could learn about this pain, so I actually just googled it. Now, looking back as a 28-year-old self-claimed independent woman, I was really surprised that even though I came to study abroad, sex is still such a big shame for me to talk about it, or even to just, like, Google it, like, I remember when I was Googling, I was like, oh my god, I would never, ever expect that I would do this one day. Is that something that's common to you when you are talking to your Chinese clients? Hailey Lin Yeah, I think that's very common. And I think like, like, across, not just Chinese, across the old Asian cultures, that's a, like, a huge gap in the school sex education. They just talk about biological stuff, but they don't tell you, Hey, how to give consent to help your first sexual experience. Or they don't talk about pleasure. They just talk about abstinence. Like, don't do this, don't fall in, like, pregnancy, protect yourself, use condom, just all about that. But sex is something that we need to learn. We need to build up, a skill we need to practice, but that no one tells us, and our family, our parents won't do, and our friends maybe they don't have, like, a lot of experience there as well. Wing Kuang Is that, like a common feeling you have to counter with your clients as well? Ronald Hoang Yeah, I think it is. Like shame is a weapon that's often used, I think, in Asian culture and when we feel shame, shame is a feeling that we get when we're kind of telling ourselves that we are a bad person. And the following action tendency of shame is to hide, to withdraw because you're such a bad person that you don't want other people to kind of be around you and see you for the badness that you are. So I actually appreciate you actually sharing that story, because you're actually breaking that and you're doing something different, and that's the healing. Wing Kuang Bertin Huynh That actually kind of reminds me of my experience. I'm a gay man, so having not even come out of the closet? Yeah, I didn't even have friends to talk to. And, you know, parents are definitely off limits there. And then I guess the one thing you turn to is the only kind of representation of sex or gay sex that you have, which is pornography. So that really leads me to this next question from Doris. She was wondering if people who consume lots of pornography, lots of content like that, does that affect their perception of enjoyment of real people? Hailey Lin Absolutely. Because, like people usually the major source of what their sex education is actually through pornography and because, in porn, like, they don't talk about consent, like they wouldn't speak about, hey, do you want to have sex with me? Yes or no, they don't teach you something like that. Ronald Hoang Porn is entertainment, not educational. It's just purely entertainment. It's edited, scripted, and is not a representation of real, committed sex and relationship. Hailey Lin Nowadays, a lot of people really notice, like, this huge issue with a pornography. So nowadays we do have, like, something called ethical porn, so like, then we can learn more education. Should know, like how to masturbate or how to help like intercourse, but I think that is a better trend that can literally, like, change the world a little bit. Bertin Huynh The next one is a voice note that was sent in. It's from Amy, Amy Hi, I'm Amy. Are we seeing a growing trend in certain relationship types in the Chinese Australian community, such as open relationships or polyamory? And what are the factors influencing such trends? And if so, how? Do Chinese cultural values tend to inhibit this individual's pursuit of these relationship types polyamory, for example, how likely or how challenging is such an arrangement to work feeling? Hailey Lin That's also a misconception, like, okay, only Asian or Chinese people find it challenging. But the fact is, even for Western people, they still find it challenging too, because it is against mainstream culture. It's not about like, okay, open your relationship, and then I can have a sex with other people . Oh, that's amazing. But it's not like that. It's just a lot of power dynamics, a lot of relationships, like agreement, or even, like the contract between two of you. Wing Kuang I actually find both of you share a very strong common point, like when you both talk about sex and dating professionally, in answering these questions, you often mention a phrase, this is actually not exclusive to the Asian community. Why do you feel that this is not excluded to the Asian community? Hailey Lin Yeah people think like certain cultures, Chinese culture means that you're conservative, or even like you feel sexist taboo. But sometimes, like even some like Chinese client, they come to me like they can be in an open relationship, or they can be, like, doing sex work or whatever. So I don't want people to have this, like, assumption, pre assumption, or a stereotype about, like, okay, Chinese people should act like that. Ronald Hoang Yeah, and I think it's our line of work. So the Asian couples, or Asian people will come to us and talk about these things, but it's actually extremely normal, like so many Asian couples and all these couples, they're struggling with the same thing. It's just perhaps this taboo that it's something that we can't talk about with our friends or out in the community. It's something that we shouldn't touch. That's probably the perception that it's maybe giving other people who don't work in mental health. Wing Kuang Earlier you were talking that actually, Chinese people are not that conservative because they actually will turn to you for professional help, but it's just always these stereotypes. Even one of our friends, when they are typing this question like, they start with like, yeah, "compared to Australian culture, Chinese culture seems to be, indeed, a bit more conservative". How do you find that being in these intersected environments affected our views on sex and dating? Hailey Lin That's really difficult, right? You have to juggle between, like, your own news like your original family, and then like, this is the thing that I learned in this society, or this is my upbringing, like in Australia. So that's the contrast. This is really about communication. I would think, how do you have a good balance with your life and also respectfully, let your parents know. Okay, this is your expectation. This is an older generation, like, extended back in your days, but now we are like, like, in a different society, different roles. Ronald Hoang It's a bit of a tug of war, isn't it? This idea of what Western society might be telling us, this is our Asian culture or our family, and I think it comes down to our values and what we value and how we want to live our life, and that also relates to relationships and sex and intimacy and to be living our values in a way that is authentic. Bertin Huynh You know, when we were collecting these questions, the people who were most open to asking them were women. And so we were also kind of wondering if, if men, or straight men in particular, or even straight Chinese men, if men have an issue talking about relationships, about sex, about dating? Ronald Hoang I think they probably would, on some level. I can imagine, because there is a sense of lack of competence. If they were to come out and say, hey, I'm having trouble with this, then it's like I'm less of a man, which is obviously not true in an issue. But I can imagine for some men that that would be a barrier for them. Hailey Lin Talking about this problem or issue that having in sex or even my performance can kind of, like make me less of a man, or even like impact my sense of manhood. Yeah, that can be a great barrier. Would that also because, like, this is a theory from one of my straight Chinese male friends, who was like, saying Asian men on dating apps just has no advantage. So you are, like, always the group that no one's gonna pick. Do you see that this is probably contributing to, like, why they are not opening up? Or what are your thoughts on these theories about? Like, oh, Asian men just are not attractive. Hailey Lin I think that's an interesting question, because I do believe, like people, they have different preferences. Some people prefer the same culture. So maybe if, like, they are local, like Australians, so they might want to date Australians. Or some people, like, Oh, I'm Asian, I like to date Asian. So it's about choices and preferences. Ronald Hoang And it could be a little bit of like, having a minority mindset where they're putting themselves down and counting themselves out already. Bertin Huynh Where does the line then exist between racism, preference and then fetish? Hailey Lin Fetish is something like, more like a non-conventional or non-traditional kind of sex. So if you have a fantasy towards an object or something like more extreme or more kinky, you call it a fetish. Ronald Hoang It can also, I think, maybe depend on what context, because for me, racism is about superiority and the power dynamic, where someone is demonstrating that they are more powerful or superior in some way to another person. So you can have a preference and just say, because it's just not my preference, it's not my cup of tea. But if it's because, well, because I just can't stand this Asian or this particular culture, because they do this or, you know, there's a sense of, my culture is better than yours, and that is racism. Hailey Lin And it also depends on the belief. So if a guy thinks, like, okay, all Asian women, they are submissive, they are like a good baby girl. And so that's why I picked them. I like to have sexual contact with them. So I think that's more like racism because of the theory of total assumptions that all Asian women can only be submissive and cannot be dominant in the sex play. I think that's racism. Wing Kuang Final question: to our young audience from the community, what's your advice to have the best sex and relationship? Hailey Lin I feel like echoes to what Ronald just brings out like at the beginning of our recording. Saying this is a misconception or myths about how sex with your partner must be, or always should be good. I feel like as a sex for a bit, I would say like good enough. You'll have frustration in your sex life, in your intimacy, but always remember, like enough sex. So sometimes we allow ourselves, I'm like, okay, below average sex, but sometimes also bring some novelty into your sex life. Because this is a human brain. This is human nature. We all like new stuff. Ronald Hoang My tip would be communication. Communication, communication. Because I think not only is communication a huge aspect of relationships, but it also is part of sex as well. And I think the research shows that the couples who have more sex are the ones who talk about it. So if you want more sex, just talk about it openly. It doesn't have to be something so serious. Wing Kuang I will put that on my dating app profile, on "who am I looking for" (section). "open to talk about sex to me at least three times a week". Bertin Huynh That's a good one. Thank you so much Hayley and Ronald for your wisdom today, and hopefully we've made that conversation a little bit easier to have. Hailey Lin Thank you. Lovely to be here. Ronald Hoang Bertin Huynh You're listening to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it's like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. This episode is hosted by Wing Kuang and Bertin Huynh, produced by me and Dennis Fang, with support from Joel Supple and Max Gosford. The artwork is by Joanna Hu. Wing Kuang Follow Chinese-ish on your favorite podcast platform, or head to or the SBS Audio app.
