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Sex-ish: The talk our parents never gave us

There is some expectation that sex should always be good... but I think there are seasons - there are times when it's summer and it's hot and heavy, and there are other times when it's winter and it's cold. — Ronald Hoang, Relationship and Family Therapist Credits: Host: Wing Kuang and Dennis Fang Producer: Bertin Huynh Art: Joanna Hu SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn Wing Kuang This podcast was recorded on the land of the Camaraygal people. We'd like to pay our respects to elders past and present, and recognise their continuous connection to Country. Welcome to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it is like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. My name is wing. I'm a former Chinese international student. Bertin Huynh And I'm Bertin. I'm a second-generation Vietnamese Chinese Australian. Wing Kuang I'm going to bring you to an awkward chat in this episode. Bertin Huynh Really, should I be nervous? Should I be scared? Wing Kuang Yeah, because this is something that our community isn't very good at talking about it. Bertin Huynh Oh, I think I have a good idea of what you mean. Wing Kuang We are going to talk about sex and dating too. Bertin Huynh But before we get any deeper into this episode, just a bit of a content warning that this episode may contain some graphic detail. You know, this is something I never spoke to my parents about. But this week, we have two experts to help us make this conversation just a little bit easier. Wing Kuang We have Hailey Lin, who is a psychosexual therapist, originally from Hong Kong, here with us. Welcome to Chinese-ish, Hailey. Hailey Lin Hello. Thank you for having me. Bertin Huynh And I have Ronald Hoang. He's a relationship and family Ronald. Ronald Hoang Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Bertin Huynh Hailey, starting with you. Could you just tell us really quickly exactly what you do in your job? What does a psychosexual therapist do? Hailey Lin So things like sexual dysfunctioning or something like gender identity issues or porn addiction, relationship difficulties, all of that. Wing Kuang And what's your job about, Ronald? Ronald Hoang Yeah, my focus is specialised in relationships, so things like communication and connection and working through any issues amongst couples. But of course, sex also naturally comes into the equation too. Wing Kuang Since we are all of Chinese heritage, it's so universally acknowledged that Chinese parents will only want us to be doctors or lawyers or engineers. And now one of you are sex therapist and one of you are offering consultation on relationships and dating and love. What's your family reaction about your career choice in the first dance? Hailey Lin I think my mom is pretty open minded, because I have, like, this long journey. I was a beginning social worker. I work in the sexual health field, so she's kind of like, okay, you're a social worker, but you just are working with, like, some, like, sexual health issues. So she finds that's okay, because you're just helping people. And then later I told her, like, Okay, I decided to study sexology and become sex therapist. I should go, Okay, if this is what you like, go, go for it. Wing Kuang Oh, you have a really cool mom. And how about you, Ronald? Ronald Hoang Oh my mom. I'm pretty sure she still doesn't know what I do. The way she describes it is, I work with crazy people, so she doesn't fully grasp what I do, but she's accepting. I guess you could say, I mean, in my extended family, they really wanted us to be like a doctor or lawyer or a pharmacist, and all of my cousins are pharmacists, actually. But I chose to take a different pathway so to begin with, it was confusing for her, but I think she understands it a little bit better nowadays. Bertin Huynh I think that crazy word is quite stereotypical of our community, right? We don't really understand and we don't really talk about our feelings and our relationships. Does that kind of come into play, especially when you have patients that are of Chinese descent? Ronald Hoang Oh, yeah, definitely. I think that is an aspect of Asian relationships where there is either very indirect communication, where they don't really speak about their needs, or don't really speak about certain topics. They're too sensitive about certain things, or sometimes the communication can be extremely direct, like too direct, using guilt and shame to have their needs met. But of course, that does damage to a relationship. Wing Kuang I was also just wondering, because you were mentioning that your mom was still very confused about your job. Is that also just because, like, this idea of reviewing your sex life, your relationship life, to the external third party, is not really a thing in a Chinese family. Hailey Lin Yeah, even I say like, my mom was open minded and supportive to my decision, but she doesn't talk to my relatives or her friends about what I do. So they would just tell them, oh, she was a social worker now doing psychotherapy things like that. So still, like, she can be like, open minded, but also she can be like, very conservative about that, because it is not the norm in our Asian culture, like talking about sex or intimacy or those, like, kind of. Like, pirate stuff. Bertin Huynh and then, like, on the back of that, then do members of your family or friends? Do they come to you because you have that qualification when they have issues? Or is that something that you do that's the line that you don't cross? Oh, Hailey Lin People will come to me. Yeah, of course. They will come to me. And sometimes they will say, oh, okay, I really need help, and stuff like that. So when I was, like, much younger. When I just graduated, I just try to be a good person. Like to be a savior. Okay, I will talk to you about this, but later, I've learned that, okay, I should be ready to set my boundary. Ronald Hoang I wouldn't say, when I talk with my friends that I provide them with therapy, though, that I would just be providing them with my insight or opinion, and it would be a lot more direct, you know, I would tell them my thoughts, whereas working with a client may not be the same. Wing Kuang Do you get a lot of Chinese patients who come to you because they were like, oh, this is an Asian therapist, or this isn't a Chinese therapist, so they will understand what I'm talking about. Hailey Lin Yes, like I do, I do get it because I am talking about sex in that vocabulary, it can be like an alien or foreign language when you speak about your genital past or even your intimacy. So they find it very difficult to open up to, let's say Aussie or a local therapist, because of the different cultural background they feel, oh, this is very difficult to tell them, like what they truly think, or what the real struggle is. They just couldn't have that understanding towards them. But there's not a lot of options for like, Chinese sex therapists. I think that's just two or three in particular. Ronald Hoang I used to work in an organisation, actually, and I would get a lot less Asian clients, but working in private practice, I noticed that I do get a lot more Asian clients who specifically come to me because they feel and they even directly say this to me because they feel that I would get them a bit better. And so they do open up, and they do come because they feel like I can relate to their culture. Wing Kuang Without revealing any details or privacy of your clients, what's the most asked question you have got from the Chinese community? Hailey Lin Just a hard one. So I feel like, because I am Asian, we don't have this therapy culture. So when they do come to us, they're just expecting, like, something like seeing a GP, like, Okay, how many sessions? Tell me, can I get a cure, or can I get a prescription? Tell me, like, how many sessions? Like, how many calls do I have to pay you to get the result? Ronald Hoang For me, I think one theme is the theme between choosing partner loyalty and family loyalty and juggling that dynamic. You know, do I meet my family's needs versus my partner's needs, which might not meet my family's needs, and that can create, as you can imagine, some tension there. There's also often, I notice, because a lot of us are migrants and come from various places that there is intergenerational trauma that's probably a little bit more frequent than other different kinds of backgrounds. Wing Kuang So we've gathered some questions from our young Chinese Australian community. Bertin, would you like to share the first one? Bertin Huynh Okay, so the first one's very, very simple. Neville asks: why is it so hard to find the right one? Ronald Hoang I think that in modern day society, especially with the introduction of dating apps, what I feel has happened is dating has been like a commodified game. It's become a thing where people are the objects in a game. And because of dating apps, there is an abundance of choice which creates the paradox of choice, which is basically a psychological effect. The more choices we have, the sadder or more upset we are with the choice that we make. And so because of this, we've become more choosy in our relationship. So we have a list of ticking boxes that we feel like we're trying to find in our partner, and it makes us more and more choosy and makes us less and less committed to a single person, because comparison is the thief of happiness. Bertin Huynh So from my perspective, as a sex therapist, I would say there's a because I know nowadays the models of society, it has a lot of like, different format of relationship, like we talk about, like, friends with benefit. We talk about open relationships, or even, like, ENM, like ethical non-monogamy. So that's a lot of format about relationships, and you have to find the right one. It could be, like, very difficult, yeah, because you have to, like, meet people who share very similar values. So it can make this very tough. Wing Kuang And this one is from Lisa, so I thought naturally you'd feel more sexually aroused when you are at your most fertile period of your cycle. But I felt like I was the opposite. Is this normal? Hailey Lin I feel like the sexual desire is case by case, like every person, like every person is different. So Some people, they feel like having, like, more sexual desire, because of the hormone, like when the ovulation happens and when you have your menstrual child cycle, because all the body hormones are fluctuating. So that's why you feel this urge to do something. We are all Chinese, but we have, like, different body quality or whatever, or different personality. And that's like, No. Wing Kuang And is it true that if you are having sex with your true love, the sex is much better? Hailey Lin Yes, yes. Because there are two aspects. One is very physical. It's more about the reflexogenic. And another part with sex is psychogenic, so it's more psychological, more emotional, and more about that, this deep connection, so you can actually have sex or make love. So I would say making love is like, like, more like a mindful feeling. Ronald Hoang I do also think that there is some expectation that sex should always be good, especially with your partner. And I think that's a myth, that's a very destructive myth that we can hold if we're rigidly holding to this idea that sex should always be amazing and passionate, but I think there are seasons, you know. There are times when it's summer and it's hot and heavy, and there are other times when it's winter and it's, you know, cold, and then, you know, and then there are other times when it's, you know, spring or autumn, when it's kind of lukewarm. Wing Kuang You said something that really struck me, Ronald, about like, sex even with your partner, is not always good, because my idea about romance and also sex pretty much come from all the trash fictions online, especially when I was still studying in China during my high school, like there were just so many, like, random fan fiction like nowadays, like looking back, you will feel that it's not biologically correct, like in the way how they describe all the sex scene, but this idea of having sex with someone you like is always good, has just been in my mind so long. So when I actually had my first sexual experience, it was actually really painful. What's more painful for me later is I didn't know where I could learn about this pain, so I actually just googled it. Now, looking back as a 28-year-old self-claimed independent woman, I was really surprised that even though I came to study abroad, sex is still such a big shame for me to talk about it, or even to just, like, Google it, like, I remember when I was Googling, I was like, oh my god, I would never, ever expect that I would do this one day. Is that something that's common to you when you are talking to your Chinese clients? Hailey Lin Yeah, I think that's very common. And I think like, like, across, not just Chinese, across the old Asian cultures, that's a, like, a huge gap in the school sex education. They just talk about biological stuff, but they don't tell you, Hey, how to give consent to help your first sexual experience. Or they don't talk about pleasure. They just talk about abstinence. Like, don't do this, don't fall in, like, pregnancy, protect yourself, use condom, just all about that. But sex is something that we need to learn. We need to build up, a skill we need to practice, but that no one tells us, and our family, our parents won't do, and our friends maybe they don't have, like, a lot of experience there as well. Wing Kuang Is that, like a common feeling you have to counter with your clients as well? Ronald Hoang Yeah, I think it is. Like shame is a weapon that's often used, I think, in Asian culture and when we feel shame, shame is a feeling that we get when we're kind of telling ourselves that we are a bad person. And the following action tendency of shame is to hide, to withdraw because you're such a bad person that you don't want other people to kind of be around you and see you for the badness that you are. So I actually appreciate you actually sharing that story, because you're actually breaking that and you're doing something different, and that's the healing. Wing Kuang Bertin Huynh That actually kind of reminds me of my experience. I'm a gay man, so having not even come out of the closet? Yeah, I didn't even have friends to talk to. And, you know, parents are definitely off limits there. And then I guess the one thing you turn to is the only kind of representation of sex or gay sex that you have, which is pornography. So that really leads me to this next question from Doris. She was wondering if people who consume lots of pornography, lots of content like that, does that affect their perception of enjoyment of real people? Hailey Lin Absolutely. Because, like people usually the major source of what their sex education is actually through pornography and because, in porn, like, they don't talk about consent, like they wouldn't speak about, hey, do you want to have sex with me? Yes or no, they don't teach you something like that. Ronald Hoang Porn is entertainment, not educational. It's just purely entertainment. It's edited, scripted, and is not a representation of real, committed sex and relationship. Hailey Lin Nowadays, a lot of people really notice, like, this huge issue with a pornography. So nowadays we do have, like, something called ethical porn, so like, then we can learn more education. Should know, like how to masturbate or how to help like intercourse, but I think that is a better trend that can literally, like, change the world a little bit. Bertin Huynh The next one is a voice note that was sent in. It's from Amy, Amy Hi, I'm Amy. Are we seeing a growing trend in certain relationship types in the Chinese Australian community, such as open relationships or polyamory? And what are the factors influencing such trends? And if so, how? Do Chinese cultural values tend to inhibit this individual's pursuit of these relationship types polyamory, for example, how likely or how challenging is such an arrangement to work feeling? Hailey Lin That's also a misconception, like, okay, only Asian or Chinese people find it challenging. But the fact is, even for Western people, they still find it challenging too, because it is against mainstream culture. It's not about like, okay, open your relationship, and then I can have a sex with other people . Oh, that's amazing. But it's not like that. It's just a lot of power dynamics, a lot of relationships, like agreement, or even, like the contract between two of you. Wing Kuang I actually find both of you share a very strong common point, like when you both talk about sex and dating professionally, in answering these questions, you often mention a phrase, this is actually not exclusive to the Asian community. Why do you feel that this is not excluded to the Asian community? Hailey Lin Yeah people think like certain cultures, Chinese culture means that you're conservative, or even like you feel sexist taboo. But sometimes, like even some like Chinese client, they come to me like they can be in an open relationship, or they can be, like, doing sex work or whatever. So I don't want people to have this, like, assumption, pre assumption, or a stereotype about, like, okay, Chinese people should act like that. Ronald Hoang Yeah, and I think it's our line of work. So the Asian couples, or Asian people will come to us and talk about these things, but it's actually extremely normal, like so many Asian couples and all these couples, they're struggling with the same thing. It's just perhaps this taboo that it's something that we can't talk about with our friends or out in the community. It's something that we shouldn't touch. That's probably the perception that it's maybe giving other people who don't work in mental health. Wing Kuang Earlier you were talking that actually, Chinese people are not that conservative because they actually will turn to you for professional help, but it's just always these stereotypes. Even one of our friends, when they are typing this question like, they start with like, yeah, "compared to Australian culture, Chinese culture seems to be, indeed, a bit more conservative". How do you find that being in these intersected environments affected our views on sex and dating? Hailey Lin That's really difficult, right? You have to juggle between, like, your own news like your original family, and then like, this is the thing that I learned in this society, or this is my upbringing, like in Australia. So that's the contrast. This is really about communication. I would think, how do you have a good balance with your life and also respectfully, let your parents know. Okay, this is your expectation. This is an older generation, like, extended back in your days, but now we are like, like, in a different society, different roles. Ronald Hoang It's a bit of a tug of war, isn't it? This idea of what Western society might be telling us, this is our Asian culture or our family, and I think it comes down to our values and what we value and how we want to live our life, and that also relates to relationships and sex and intimacy and to be living our values in a way that is authentic. Bertin Huynh You know, when we were collecting these questions, the people who were most open to asking them were women. And so we were also kind of wondering if, if men, or straight men in particular, or even straight Chinese men, if men have an issue talking about relationships, about sex, about dating? Ronald Hoang I think they probably would, on some level. I can imagine, because there is a sense of lack of competence. If they were to come out and say, hey, I'm having trouble with this, then it's like I'm less of a man, which is obviously not true in an issue. But I can imagine for some men that that would be a barrier for them. Hailey Lin Talking about this problem or issue that having in sex or even my performance can kind of, like make me less of a man, or even like impact my sense of manhood. Yeah, that can be a great barrier. Would that also because, like, this is a theory from one of my straight Chinese male friends, who was like, saying Asian men on dating apps just has no advantage. So you are, like, always the group that no one's gonna pick. Do you see that this is probably contributing to, like, why they are not opening up? Or what are your thoughts on these theories about? Like, oh, Asian men just are not attractive. Hailey Lin I think that's an interesting question, because I do believe, like people, they have different preferences. Some people prefer the same culture. So maybe if, like, they are local, like Australians, so they might want to date Australians. Or some people, like, Oh, I'm Asian, I like to date Asian. So it's about choices and preferences. Ronald Hoang And it could be a little bit of like, having a minority mindset where they're putting themselves down and counting themselves out already. Bertin Huynh Where does the line then exist between racism, preference and then fetish? Hailey Lin Fetish is something like, more like a non-conventional or non-traditional kind of sex. So if you have a fantasy towards an object or something like more extreme or more kinky, you call it a fetish. Ronald Hoang It can also, I think, maybe depend on what context, because for me, racism is about superiority and the power dynamic, where someone is demonstrating that they are more powerful or superior in some way to another person. So you can have a preference and just say, because it's just not my preference, it's not my cup of tea. But if it's because, well, because I just can't stand this Asian or this particular culture, because they do this or, you know, there's a sense of, my culture is better than yours, and that is racism. Hailey Lin And it also depends on the belief. So if a guy thinks, like, okay, all Asian women, they are submissive, they are like a good baby girl. And so that's why I picked them. I like to have sexual contact with them. So I think that's more like racism because of the theory of total assumptions that all Asian women can only be submissive and cannot be dominant in the sex play. I think that's racism. Wing Kuang Final question: to our young audience from the community, what's your advice to have the best sex and relationship? Hailey Lin I feel like echoes to what Ronald just brings out like at the beginning of our recording. Saying this is a misconception or myths about how sex with your partner must be, or always should be good. I feel like as a sex for a bit, I would say like good enough. You'll have frustration in your sex life, in your intimacy, but always remember, like enough sex. So sometimes we allow ourselves, I'm like, okay, below average sex, but sometimes also bring some novelty into your sex life. Because this is a human brain. This is human nature. We all like new stuff. Ronald Hoang My tip would be communication. Communication, communication. Because I think not only is communication a huge aspect of relationships, but it also is part of sex as well. And I think the research shows that the couples who have more sex are the ones who talk about it. So if you want more sex, just talk about it openly. It doesn't have to be something so serious. Wing Kuang I will put that on my dating app profile, on "who am I looking for" (section). "open to talk about sex to me at least three times a week". Bertin Huynh That's a good one. Thank you so much Hayley and Ronald for your wisdom today, and hopefully we've made that conversation a little bit easier to have. Hailey Lin Thank you. Lovely to be here. Ronald Hoang Bertin Huynh You're listening to Chinese-ish, an SBS podcast about what it's like to be young and Chinese in today's Australia. This episode is hosted by Wing Kuang and Bertin Huynh, produced by me and Dennis Fang, with support from Joel Supple and Max Gosford. The artwork is by Joanna Hu. Wing Kuang Follow Chinese-ish on your favorite podcast platform, or head to or the SBS Audio app.