Privileges debate shortened: What was said so far?

RNZ News

21-05-2025

Judith Collins begins the debate on the report of the Privileges Committee.
Photo:
VNP/Phil Smith
To the surprise of the Opposition, and likely anyone watching Parliament TV, the highly anticipated debate on the report from the Privileges Committee was cut short on Tuesday after the government moved to adjourn the debate after just 25 minutes and two debate speeches.
The report being debated yesterday concerns recommendations from the inquiry into the haka performed by various MPs during the vote on the first reading of the Principles of Treaty of Waitangi Bill, in November 2024.
The Privileges Committee report recommends that Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke be suspended from the House for seven days, and that Te Pāti Māori co-leaders Rawiri Waititi and Debbie Ngawera-Packer be severely censured and receive an unprecedented suspension of 21 days.
The government's decision to adjourn the debate and postpone it until after Thursday's budget was explained by Leader of the House Chris Bishop as a way of allowing Te Pāti Māori members to participate in the Budget Debate - a key opportunity for Opposition parties to hold the government to account.
"There is no more important role for Parliament than scrutinising and debating the budget," Bishop said. "Constitutionally, it is right that they participate, so we are moving to adjourn the debate so that this week can focus rightly on the budget and the details of it rather than this issue, which has occupied far too much of Parliament's time already."
There's already been plenty of coverage and analysis about the tactics and what was left unsaid after the surprise postponement. So what was said in the 20 minutes of the debate before Bishop made the adjournment motion?
As there were only two speeches given, space will allow the entirety of both of them, as reported by Hansard. Tuesday's debate started with a speech from the Committee chairperson, National's Judith Collins. This is normal form. The chair delivers a summary of the committee's report. This occasion was unusual in that the committee report was not a consensus decision, but one agreed by the majority-holding MPs from governing parties.
The initial responding speech, also reproduced below, was from Leader of the Opposition Chris Hipkins.
National MP Judith Collins speaking during the initial Privileges Committee debate regarding the Te Pāti Māori protest haka.
Photo:
VNP/Phil Smith
I move that Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke be suspended from the House for seven days for acting in a manner that could have the effect of intimidating a member of the House in the discharge of their duty;
That Debbie Ngarewa-Packer be severely censured by the House and suspended from the service of the House for 21 days for acting in a manner that could have the effect of intimidating a member of the House in the discharge of their duty;
And that Rawiri Waititi be severely censured by the House and suspended from the service of the House for 21 days for acting in a manner that could have the effect of intimidating a member of the House in the discharge of their duty.
These recommendations follow the Speaker's ruling on 10 December 2024 that a question of privilege arose from the actions of the Hon Peeni Henare, Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer, and Rawiri Waititi following the first reading debate on the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill on 14 November 2024. At the conclusion of that debate and during the vote the four members left their seats to perform the haka, and three of the members advanced towards the seats of another party, something the Speaker has ruled cannot be considered anything other than disorderly.
All four MPs were referred to the Privileges Committee and subsequently invited to appear before it. Mr Henare did so, and he accepted he should not have left his seat. The committee recommended he apologise to the House for acting in a disorderly manner that disrupted a vote being taken and impeded the House in its functions, and he unreservedly did so on 25 March 2025.
However, the three other MPs declined to appear before the committee, ostensibly because the committee rejected their request to appear together rather than individually while clarifying that each member would be able to attend in the public gallery. The committee wanted to appear individually as it considered that would be of most assistance to it in considering the question of privilege. It especially wanted to clarify whether there was any premeditation behind the actions, given Ms Maipi-Clarke told media Mr Waititi was supposed to rip up the bill and start the haka but instead handed it to her to do so.
The committee sought to arrange hearings twice more but the members declined each opportunity. We have therefore had to consider this matter based on observations on 14 November, including video footage. This footage clearly shows Ms Maipi-Clarke casting her party's vote before proceeding to rip up the bill and start a haka. The Speaker can be heard saying, "No, don't do that.", before rising to his feet. However, a number of Opposition party members then rose to their feet and joined Ms Maipi-Clarke in performing the haka, with Ms Maipi-Clarke, Mr Henare, Ms Ngarewa-Packer, and Mr Waititi leaving their seats.
Ms Maipi-Clarke, Ms Ngarewa-Packer, and Mr Waititi moved across the Chamber floor to face members of the ACT Party, who were seated at their desks. Ms Ngarewa-Packer approached the front of the ACT Party desks and while performing the haka, pointed at ACT Party members using a hand gesture similar to a finger gun. At the conclusion of the haka, Ms Ngarewa-Packer repeated the gesture and, simulating a firing motion, said, "E noho", or "Sit down." The Speaker suspended the sitting of the House.
When the House resumed nearly 30 minutes later, the Speaker ruled that Ms Maipi-Clarke's conduct was "appallingly disrespectful" and "grossly disorderly". He moved that Ms Maipi-Clarke be suspended from the House and the motion was agreed to.
Based on our review of the video footage, we considered that the facts of the matter are clear and occurred as I have already outlined. We invited Ms Maipi-Clarke, Ms Ngarewa-Packer, and Mr Waititi to provide written evidence and they jointly responded, saying, in essence, that their actions were an expression of tikanga, upholding the values and obligations of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and their tino rangatiratanga.
One of their arguments was that tikanga Māori and haka were not matters for the Privileges Committee to consider. On this, the committee agrees with them. It is not there to set or debate the rules of Parliament but, rather, to uphold the rules as they are, not as some people may wish them to be. To be clear: the haka is not banned in the House. However, the rules of Parliament-the Standing Orders-under which it operates state that permission has first to be obtained from the Speaker and that any actions must not impede the business of the House. No such permission was sought for the 14 November haka, and it most certainly did impede the business of the House as it was carried out during a vote.
The ensuing chaos led to the Speaker suspending the House for nearly 30 minutes - so here we are at the crux of the matter. It is not about haka. It is not about tikanga. It is not about the Treaty of Waitangi. It is about following the rules of Parliament that we are all obliged to follow and that we all pledged to follow. It does not matter our gender, our ethnicity, or our beliefs; in this House we are all simply members of Parliament and, like any institution, it has rules. The Standing Orders already include severe penalties for people who break the rules, without the requirement to even go to the Privileges Committee. For example, any member who is suspended under Standing Order 92 that subsequently refuses to obey the Speaker's direction to leave the Chamber, can be suspended from the House for the remainder of the calendar year without further question. I'm quoting from Standing Order 95, for the avoidance of doubt.
In this instance, the Speaker referred the matter to the Privileges Committee, which subsequently carried out a thorough inquiry over six months before coming to a majority decision. Make no mistake: this was a very serious incident, the likes of which I have never before seen in my 23 years in this debating chamber. I am a robust debater, as many of you will know, but I follow the rules of this institution and I am a proud member of it, and I appreciate and accept that my views are not those of all in this House. And that is why we are the House of Representatives. We cannot bring this House into disrepute by ignoring those rules, especially if it results in other members being intimidated, and that is exactly what happened on 14 November 2024. The behaviour of Ms Maipi-Clarke, Ms Ngarewa-Packer, and Mr Waititi was such that it could have the effect of intimidating other members of the House acting in the discharge of their duties.
It is highly disorderly for members to interrupt a vote while it is being conducted. The right to cast one's vote without impediment goes to the heart of being a member of Parliament. It is not acceptable to physically approach another member on the floor of the debating chamber. It is particularly unacceptable for Ms Ngarewa-Packer to appear to simulate firing a gun at another member of Parliament. We, therefore, by majority, find that all three members have each committed a contempt of the House, and we are recommending the penalties as I have already laid out.
After six months of meetings and hearings, which all committee members participated in in a professional manner and with civility, it is disappointing to now hear personal attacks and allegations of racism. I utterly reject that. We have simply done our job. Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Labour Leader Chris Hipkins speaking during the initial Privileges Committee debate regarding the Te Pāti Māori protest haka.
Photo:
VNP/Phil Smith
I move that all the words after the first instance of "That" be replaced with "Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer, and Rawiri Waititi be censured by the House for acting in a manner that could have the effect of intimidating a member of the House in the discharge of their duty, and that Debbie Ngarewa-Packer and Rawiri Waititi be suspended from the service of the House for 24 hours, to take effect on the first sitting day following the conclusion of the Budget debate, and that Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke face no further sanction, having already served a period of suspension."
This is a serious matter. Deliberately disrupting the business of the House is serious, interrupting a vote of Parliament is serious, and I would say to the Māori Party that when you interrupt a vote of the House, you're not just interrupting the votes of those who are voting in favour; you're interrupting the votes of those who are voting against something as well. All members of the House deserve to have their votes recorded, and when members deliberately disrupt the House, there should be some sanction for doing so.
It is never okay to intimidate another member of the House. But the sanction being proposed by the Privileges Committee is totally out of line with existing parliamentary practice and is disproportionate to the allegations that have been posed.
Let's be clear about what the Māori Party are not being sanctioned for. They are not being sanctioned for doing a haka, because haka have been performed in this House and that is acceptable. They are also not being sanctioned for refusing to appear before the Privileges Committee, because that is completely legitimate, as well. No one is obliged to appear before the Privileges Committee and the Māori Party chose not to, and that is their right and they should not be sanctioned for that.
They are being sanctioned because they broke the rules of the House, they behaved in a disorderly manner, and they interrupted a vote of the Parliament, and there should be a sanction for that. But we have never seen a sanction of this nature in New Zealand's history before.
We've had members undertaking fist fights in the lobbies, and they were not suspended at all; we've had members driving tractors and Land Rovers up the front steps of Parliament, and they were not sanctioned; we have had a recent case where a member left their chair, walked to the other side of the House, and stood over a member and thumped the table, and they were not sanctioned by the House; we've had a recent instance in this term of Parliament where a member was prevented from leaving a select committee because another member was standing over him, and they were not sanctioned by this House, and yet we seem to have gone from a situation where members were not sanctioned to one where a 21-day sanction-the harshest by a factor of seven-is being applied to these members. It is disproportionate. A sanction is appropriate; this level of sanction simply is not.
I draw on the advice that was provided by the Clerk of the House to the committee. The Clerk's job is to provide advice to the Parliament on its proceedings in a way that is not political but that upholds the traditions and the conventions of this House, and the Clerk made the advice clear that suspension of members is a rare occurrence and that a long period of suspension would represent a substantial change in the House's practice. Let's be clear: the recommendation of the Privileges Committee is exactly that. The Clerk further advised that the committee ought to recommend a long suspension only with the broad support of members, not simply a bare majority. That has not happened in this case. The Clerk also advised that the committee should clearly set out its rationale in arriving at the particular penalty so that a consistent approach could be followed in the future. I've read the report several times. There is no rationale. There is no criteria that could be followed in the future. This is an arbitrary number plucked out of thin air. How can that possibly stand in this Parliament?
Why do we choose a 24-hour suspension? It's quite simple, Mr Speaker: because it's already in the Standing Orders. Had you, as Speaker, named those members at the time, given this is the first instance in which they had been named, they would have been suspended for 24 hours, as one of the members was. If they did it again, they'd be suspended for seven days, and if they did it again, they'd be suspended for 28 days. Those are the existing rules of the House.
The Privileges Committee is departing from the well-established practice of this House in its recommendations, and the sanction they are proposing is totally disproportionate. It is wrong and against the traditions of our democracy for a government to use its majority in Parliament to suspend and remove from the service of the people of New Zealand its political opponents. The reason the Clerk advised that the committee should seek near unanimity on this matter is because of exactly that. Other parliaments around the world have seen members of the Opposition suspended by the Government, and we in many cases have criticised them for doing that. What moral authority will we have to do that again in the future if this House engages in exactly the practice we criticise other countries for doing?
I am not defending the Māori Party, and I'm not saying that their actions should be without sanction - they should be. They motion that we have put forward would see them sanctioned in line with the previous practice of this House, and that would be appropriate. Departing from that and imposing the harshest sanction the New Zealand Parliament ever would have imposed would be wrong.
I was absolutely shocked to learn that a member of the Privileges Committee asked about the committee's supposed power to imprison a member of the House. That happens in tinpot dictatorships and banana republics. No member of this House should be inquiring about whether they can imprison a member of their Opposition. It is undemocratic and it is wrong, and the fact that the question was even asked is a stain on this House.
Respect for democracy means respecting the rights of all members of Parliament, who are elected by their people, to represent them in this House. Taking away that right should be only after a very, very high threshold has been met, but the government haven't even articulated what that threshold should be.
If they are going to impose the harshest sentence ever recommended by the Privileges Committee, they should be very clear on what the criteria were that they weighed that against, and they have not done that. They should be very clear on what the future criteria for this nature of sentence - if you like - should be, and they have not done that, either. They are accusing one party of breaking the rules of Parliament - which I happen to agree they did - whilst also not following the rules themselves. Any moral authority they want to claim here has been severely diminished by the fact that they themselves are not following the existing rules of the House. The sanctions that this House imposes are set in the Standing Orders - 24 hours, seven days, 28 days; in that order - and the Privileges Committee have not followed that.
But the last point I want to make is perhaps the most important of all. Looking around the world - and I say this to all members on all sides of the House - democracy is quite literally hanging by a thread. Days like today hold a razor blade up to that thread. When people around the country look at this House and say, "Why should I have any faith in the institutions of democracy?", this is a very good example of why. Parliament is spending more time talking about itself than talking about the issues that matter to them.
And before the government members go "the Opposition have a choice", the government scheduled this debate for today. They had that choice. The government recommended a penalty that is harsher than any the Parliament has ever imposed before, and that was their choice. The government chose to impose that penalty by majority rather than seeking consensus, as the Privileges Committee has almost always done in the past, and that was their choice. They have brought this before the House today and they have made that choice, and it should be subject to scrutiny.
What they're doing today is wrong. Imposing a penalty that removes three members of the House during Budget week-preventing them participating in one of the two occasions the Opposition has in a year to vote no confidence in the government - is simply wrong. This is not a tinpot dictatorship or a banana republic. We should stand up for the values of democracy, even when they are inconvenient and even when people are saying things that we disagree with. That is not what the government are doing today.
At the conclusion of Chris Hipkins' speech, National MP and Leader of the House Chris Bishop moved that the debate be adjourned until Thursday 5 June. That vote was agreed 68 to 55, along governing coalition/opposition lines.
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