From electric grids to powering gadgets, sodium-ion batteries hold promise
Hit play on the player below to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript beneath it. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text.
Dana Taylor:
Hello, I'm Dana Taylor, and this is a special episode of USA. Today's The Excerpt. From laptops to electric cars. Lithium-ion batteries are in so many of the products we use every day. It's hard to imagine there's an alternative, but a half century ago sodium-ion batteries were also on the table as an option today with metals like lithium are harder and more expensive to source, electronics firms are taking another look at sodium-ion to power our modern devices with greater availability, lower manufacturing costs, and more stable chemistry. Could sodium-ion batteries be the key to powering our future? To answer these questions more, I'm now joined by Shirley Meng, a University of Chicago professor and material scientists who studied sodium-ion batteries. Thanks for joining us on The Excerpt, Shirley.
Shirley Meng:
Pleasure to be here.
Dana Taylor:
Let's talk about sodium-ion versus lithium-ion batteries. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?
Shirley Meng:
So imagine that the working ions is the bigger ions. So many people think the bigger ions will be slower, meaning when you charge, discharge the battery, the ions move at a slower speed. But that's the wrong assumption. Actually, scientifically, we have proven that sodium-ions can actually move very, very quickly between the negative and the positive electrodes. So one of the major advantages that sodium-ions provide is that the device tend to be more power and actually enabling more fast charging capability. So we are actually very excited about the physical properties of the sodium-ion. And the second very important consequences of the physical properties of the sodium-ion is that you can enable lower temperature operation. So I'm from Chicago. Sometimes Chicago's weather can be a little bit of problematic for lithium-ion batteries. Actually, sodium-ion can provide a solution for the lower temperature operation because the high reactivity of sodium-ion, they tends to perform very well at lower temperature.
So these are just a couple examples of sodium-ion's advantages. I can go on and on for another 20 minutes, but let's talk a little bit about sodium-ion's disadvantage. So the voltage in the past, so in a battery, the electrochemical potential between, sorry I used the jargon, but basically the voltage between the positive and the negative electrodes in the sodium-ion batteries in the past has tends to be lower than that of the lithium-ion battery. So a lot of the transistors or a lot of the mobile devices, very difficult to build up the voltage to operate. However, we have solved this problem. Actually the varieties in sodium chemistry that allow the sodium-ion batteries to operate near four volt, just like lithium-ion has been invented. So I think although it's a nascent technology, it's still new. So of course we fell behind in terms of economy of scale.
So the cost for sodium-ion batteries, even though eventually it will reach to a lower price. However, at the moment, sodium-ion cannot compete with lithium-ion for the cost. This is one of the major challenges all of us are facing. Because of the cost that cannot compete. So general public still cannot access the low-cost of sodium-ion batteries at this moment. So we are hoping some smart investors could see the potential of the sodium-ion batteries and really not thinking about sodium-ion batteries here to replace lithium-ion. Lithium-ion batteries are not replaceable. It will continue to be with us for the decades to come and power many of the important electronic devices around us. But sodium-ion batteries can provide additional values to our society. So I think we will see sodium-ion battery as a very good complement to the lithium-ion batteries.
Dana Taylor:
With regards to environmental impact, do sodium-ion batteries have an edge over lithium-ion?
Shirley Meng:
So this is a very good question, and it really deserves some explanations here. I think that the first thing I would really emphasize is that all batteries, lithium-ion or sodium-ion batteries are not renewables. So batteries are made with chemical elements. So we start from mining these elements from the ground, from sodium brine or lithium brine that we have to extract those elements. And inside a device, we also have transition metals like iron, manganese, cobalt, nickel. Although in the sodium-ion batteries, the chemistry we invented can completely eliminate cobalt and nickel, like what we need in lithium-ion batteries, a lot of nickel, a lot of cobalt were used. But in sodium-ion batteries, we have the options not to using those elements. One more thing is sodium-ion batteries also do not use copper as the current collector. Copper is actually a very important current collector. Basically it's a component to allow the electrons to flow, but in the sodium-ion batteries we can just use the cheap aluminum.
So in principle, yes, sodium-ion batteries has the potential to have lower environmental impact because we don't use what we call the critical elements like lithium, cobalt, nickel, copper. But in the bigger picture, all of us have to recognize that any batteries we have to mine elements, we have to do manufacturing, we have to do the recycling. So I think when we talk about the true environmental impact of battery device, we need to think about how we can ensure the circularity of battery materials. So until the scientists like us or engineers like us figure out the ultimate way to recycle a hundred percent all the materials in the batteries, I think we still have a lot of work to do to ensure the environmental minimum impact of environment for sodium ion batteries.
Dana Taylor:
The US is lagging behind China in the manufacture and development of sodium ion technology. Why is that and what would it take for the US to catch up?
Shirley Meng:
I would share some of my personal experience from year 2000. That's the year when I started doing my PhD in lithium ion batteries. Japan just commercialized lithium ion battery in 1992. So a few years later, every country, every continent started looking at this lithium ion battery manufacturing production. And at that time, I would say that based my own observation, I think a lot of companies in the western Hemisphere decided not to go after the manufacturing because of the low profit margin and the failure to recognize what batteries can empower, what batteries can enable. So let me be very clear, I think sodium ion battery manufacturing will follow similar pathway as lithium ion batteries. So the manufacturing itself is difficult, it's hard, it is low profit margin. However, we must look beyond what the battery itself, the cost. However we should think about what they can enable.
For example, lithium ion batteries had the revolution in the mobile devices. Apple would not be successful without lithium ion batteries. And Tesla would not be so successful without lithium ion batteries. So let's imagine what the sodium ion batteries could enable on our modern grid, on our future home. So I really think that we will face the same challenge because the manufacturing as a whole western part of the world have fell behind because the requirement for the supply chain, for the manpower and also profit margin. But let me say this, I think in the attempt to bring manufacturing back to US, I think along the pathway, we are going to see lithium ion batteries coming back to the US for manufacturing.
And while we build up the expertise, the know-how of lithium-ion batteries, the manufacturing for sodium-ion batteries will benefit and we will catch up. I certainly hope that many of the companies who are involved in this business competing for price with China is not smart strategies. Throughout the history, I think the US and Europe have always produced the things that people desire and compete at performance, compete at what values we provide for the product. So I think we can focus on that. Then the next generation modern sodium-ion batteries can and will be produced in US in the soil.
Dana Taylor:
A persistent hurdle for clean energy development here in the US has been how to store it for later use. This applies to both wind and solar power. Meanwhile, China has been using sodium-ion batteries for energy storage systems to create stable power networks. How might that work here in the US and what kind of investment would that take?
Shirley Meng:
So this question is very difficult to answer. One of the main reasons is that US grid and the China grid are two completely different systems. Actually, China's grid is nationalized, so they have a very uniform rules about how the grid is run. And the US's grids are very fragmented and privatized. So I think the two sides of the coin is on one side, yes, sodium-ion batteries will be able to play a very significant role, just like lithium-ion batteries. If you check the California ISO system, lithium-ion batteries already been playing key critical role in stabilizing the grid. So lithium-ion batteries can do the same. However, penetration of lithium-ion batteries have over the past two decades met many obstacles and still facing a lot of challenges, particularly in the market, like longer duration. Maybe four to eight hours overnight shifts and something like that. So I think that the other side of the coin is really the policy, the incentives that provide to the battery providers that how we can accelerate the implementation of the sodium-ion batteries.
And the last missing piece for all of those using batteries for the grid storage is because the battery size is going to be gigantic. We are talking about hundreds of megawatt-hours. So imagine it's like putting tens of thousands of Tesla cars together for storing the grid energy. However, the chemistry has to be really safe, because people driving smaller cars, you can always abandon the car and handle the safety incident. But in the gigantic grid storage device, we must ensure much better safety. And that I think for us is one of the major hurdles. And when we talk about the fragmented US grid, how each of the states, each of the grid system can handle this kind of challenges remains to be a big question for now.
Dana Taylor:
Politically, the Trump administration has ruled back many of the government funded manufacturing and consumer incentives for electric vehicles. Are there any industrial incentives that might tip the scales toward sodium ion use anyway? Can you talk me through that please?
Shirley Meng:
Yes. I think for our entire community we are a little bit disappointed with the lack of incentives in the current administration. But as a battery scientist who have worked in this area for 25 years since my PhD time, then I'll tell you this is not the worst time we have experienced. And right now, just as you mentioned, the industry compared to 25 years ago, we have a trillion dollar industry backing us. And we have also, many public opinions are gearing towards people have experienced the electric cars, people have benefited from how much values. Batteries have become so ubiquitous that you don't even pay attention because you use them every day, everywhere.
So I would say that I remain optimistic that companies, together with the government agencies, especially the state level governments, we will trailblaze a pathway where the incentives is not the key critical enabler, but the economic benefits, the value added products to the public become the main incentives why we are going for electrification. And as a scientist who work in this area for so long, I would say electrification is unstoppable. It will happen. And the current setback is temporary. And many, many smart people are working in this area. So I'm really quite cautiously optimistic about the future of electrification.
Dana Taylor:
We appreciate your expertise here, Shirley, thank you so much for being on The Excerpt.
Shirley Meng:
Pleasure.
Dana Taylor:
Thanks to our senior producers, Shannon Rae Green and Kaely Monahan for their production assistance, our executive producers Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to podcasts@usatoday.com. Thanks for listening. I'm Dana Taylor. Taylor Wilson will be back tomorrow morning with another episode of USA TODAY's The Excerpt.
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Corey Tarwater: In Hawaii in general, since humans have arrived, we've lost about 100 different plant species, and we've lost about 60% of our bird species have all gone extinct since we arrived there. We also see that in addition to the ones that have gone extinct, about 40% of the species on the US threatened and endangered species list are in Hawaii. And this is pretty amazing, given that Hawaii only represents 1% of the land mass of the United States. So we've certainly led to a lot of species being threatened and endangered, and we've led to a lot of extinctions of species for lots of different reasons, right? Because we've introduced a bunch of species there. We've got urbanization, right, we've built up different cities, we have agriculture. So for a whole variety of reasons, we've bought a lot of species to Hawaii and it's led to extinctions. Dana Taylor: Are there some species that might be surprising to our listeners that are non-native that are now found on Oahu? Corey Tarwater: I remember talking to some locals when I was in Honolulu one time, and I was talking about the non-native birds outside flying around Honolulu, and I said, "What? Those are non-natives." So I think where a lot of people, they look like tropical birds. They are tropical birds, most of them, right? They're colorful, they're fun. It's what we think of it as the tropics. And so I think that probably a lot of the bird species people would not know are non-native birds, and certainly the plants, because we have these huge trees that are non-native all around the urban landscapes. I think a lot of people probably would think that those are native just because they're basically the canopy, right? They're what structured the entire community. So I think most of it would surprise people. Dana Taylor: How have novel ecosystems challenged what we think of as natural, as opposed to what we think of as wild? 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Corey Tarwater: Yeah, so we have been studying them for the last 10 years now, and we've recorded over 5,000 interactions between plants and birds, and amongst all those interactions, there's not one interaction between the plants and birds that's between native species. They're all non-native. They could be a non-native bird to a native plant or a non-native bird to a non-native plant. But they're, all interactions are novel. They've never been seen before. And so that really just highlights how embedded these non-native species are into the ecosystem. Dana Taylor: Non-native birds play a role in sustaining some of the last native plants on Oahu. Can you share more about that discovery and what it says about resilience and adaptation within ecosystems? Corey Tarwater: Oh, we've got four key non-native birds that do most of the seed dispersal out on Oahu. So they're the only thing allowed to disperse our native plants. There's no native frugivores left on Oahu to disperse our native plants. And so there's four really critical bird species that serve that entire role for these native species. The challenge is that they're not complete replacements. We have a lot of native fruits that are not getting dispersed because they're too big for these birds to eat. These are small birds that are flying around. They can only eat fruit of a certain size, and so while they do a great job with some of the native plants, they're not the same as the ones that went extinct. So I think that's important to highlight is that, again, we've got seed predators out there, seed dispersers, but it's not going to be a complete replacement of what we've lost. Dana Taylor: Hawaii is, of course, lush and teeming with life. As a scientist, how do you personally weigh the wonder of these novel ecosystems with the loss of Hawaii's native diversity? Corey Tarwater: Hawaii is fascinating and depressing all at the same time. So we love going out to Hawaii. I enjoy going up to the mountains and seeing the native plant species and being in these really amazingly lush environments. I love the coast, and I think it's fascinated from an ecological perspective of what happens when you have all these species together that have never been together before. How do they interact with each other? What are they doing? How are they surviving? I think it's from an ecological perspective, it's an incredibly fascinating place. From a conservation perspective, it's rough, right? There's people that are incredibly dedicated, working very hard to maintain some of these native plants and these birds and snails and all the different things that are threatened and endangered. So I feel mixed about it. I enjoy it. I think it's beautiful. I love going out there, but it's also, it's tough knowing that these plant species will never be able to make it on their own. Dana Taylor: Are there conservationists who advocate for the removal of non-native species? What are your thoughts regarding that approach in general and also specifically on Oahu? Corey Tarwater: Currently, a lot of the non-native plants are getting removed, and I think that that's a good thing. A lot of these non-native plants are, they're highly invasive. They're highly detrimental to the landscape, to the native plants. So certainly that's happening, and I think it's a good thing, but I think it's good to figure out the roles of these non-native species to figure out what to target. You certainly don't want to target the non-native birds that are helping promote dispersal of native plants, and you don't need to target the non-native plants that aren't really doing too much harm to the environment. They're kind of more neutral effects on the environment. So really targeting towards these highly invasive species is really where conservation should go, and it's certainly what people focused on, on Oahu and elsewhere. Dana Taylor: You've said that Oahu can be seen as a cautionary tale. What's the lesson here? Corey Tarwater: Well, the lesson is first trying to not let a bunch of things in, which is a big challenge, right? Humans are really good at moving species around. We changed the land, right, we're changing the climate. And so one thing is just trying to stop things from coming in the first place. And some of our work has shown what plant species are really preferred by these birds, really the ones you should look out for and try to stop from even getting these populations on the landscape. And so I think, yeah, first, having an idea what not to allow to happen. And then I think the other cautionary tale is we need to think about how we want to conserve these novel ecosystems in the future. Do we want to focus on removal of particular species? Do we want to think about maintaining some of the functions of these environments? So in terms of carbon storage or pollination or seed dispersal, these important roles that they have, how do we want to deal with that? And what are the cultural values associated with these particular species? So there's a lot to think about in terms of how we want to conserve in the future. But the lessons on Oahu is that certainly that these non-native species can be really embedded into these communities. They can be really stable. The birds out there have preferences. They don't just eat whatever's on the landscape, but they have preferences for particular species. And so we can take some of these lessons and think about how we'll apply it to new ecosystems. Think about what are some of the ways that we can promote native species? Think about the roles of these non-native species in the environment. Dana Taylor: Is there an upside to novel ecosystems? Has your research allowed you to gain a deeper understanding about the future of life on this planet? Corey Tarwater: Novel ecosystems are our future, right, and they're a challenge because they're going to just increase into the future. Right. With continued change in climate and land use change and movement of people, we want to study them so that we understand how they function, who are the good guys and who are the bad guys in these environments? So I think the upside is that we can maintain some of these ecosystem functions, that we can have invasive trees that are really good at carbon storage. We can have non-native birds that are really good at pollination and seed dispersal. The upside is that there are some species that can help fill the role of some of these species that are going extinct. The downside is certainly that at the same time, these invasive species are causing global biodiversity loss. And so it's not, you're looking for a good silver lining once you've already created this environment with this novel ecosystem. So there's certainly, again, roles that species can play, non-native species can play to maintain these ecosystems. But in the ideal world, we'd also have areas where we can maintain these native communities as much as possible. So I think separating out what we mean by non-native versus invasive is really important. Invasive are bad, right? That's just what they are. But non-native don't have to be bad, right? They can actually be playing helpful roles in ecosystems. Dana Taylor: Finally, I know you recently returned from a trip to Hawaii. What's next for you and your team? Corey Tarwater: Our next steps are to experimentally remove some of these highly invasive species. So we've looked at how the role that these native and non-native species play in the ecosystem, and we understand what the birds like and how we can increase frugivory and all that type of stuff on the native plants. But now what we want to do is we want to remove some of these really highly invasive plant species, which is what restoration is doing now, and see what happens. Do the birds, do they eat something else? And if they eat something else, what do they eat? Do they eat the native plants or they just continue to eat the non-native plants? Can we create some sort of restoration area that it's going to encourage the birds to eat more native fruits? And so it's going to be these big crazy experiments where we're basically removing two of the worst invasive plant species on Oahu and looking to see how the birds respond, and if we can create an ideal kind of restoration sites for land managers to work with. Dana Taylor: It's fascinating. Corey, thank you so much for being on The Excerpt. Corey Tarwater: Thank you for having me. Dana Taylor: Thanks to our senior producers, Shannon Rae Green and Kaely Monahan for their production assistance. Our executive producers Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to podcasts@ Thanks for listening. I'm Dana Taylor. Taylor Wilson be back tomorrow morning with another episode of USA TODAY's The Excerpt.
