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Primerica (PRI) Q2 2025 Earnings Call Transcript
Date Thursday, August 7, 2025, at 10 a.m. ET Call participants Chief Executive Officer — Glenn Williams Chief Financial Officer — Tracy Tan Operator Need a quote from a Motley Fool analyst? Email pr@ Risks Management stated that the number of new life insurance policies issued is expected to decline by approximately 5% in fiscal 2025 compared to fiscal 2024; this is attributed to "continued cost of living pressures and ongoing uncertainty" and reinforced in revised guidance. Elevated lapse rates in Term Life remained stable year over year in the second quarter of 2025 but continue to persist above pre-pandemic long-term LDTI assumptions, driven primarily by economic pressures on core demographics. Productivity per life insurance licensed representative was at the low end of the historical range (0.20) for the second quarter of 2025, and CEO Williams said, "It is possible we could peek out the bottom of the range for a period of time." Operating expenses increased 8% year over year in the second quarter of 2025, with full-year fiscal 2025 expense growth guidance reaffirmed at 6%-8%, driven in part by higher technology and infrastructure investments, and increased variable growth-related costs. Takeaways Adjusted net operating income -- Adjusted net operating income was $180 million in the second quarter of 2025, up 6% year over year, reflecting strength in investment savings and steady performance in Term Life. Diluted adjusted operating EPS -- Diluted adjusted operating EPS increased 10% to $5.46 in the second quarter of 2025. Capital returned to stockholders -- $163 million, comprising $129 million in share repurchases and $34 million in regular dividends in the second quarter of 2025. New life insurance policies issued -- 89,850 new term life insurance policies were issued in the second quarter of 2025. Life licensed representatives -- Ended the second quarter of 2025 at 152,592, a 5% increase from June 2024. Recruiting activity -- Over 80,000 recruits joined in the second quarter of 2025, with more than 50,000 new recruits in July 2025, driven by licensing fee incentives. Total life insurance face amount in force -- Reached a record $968 billion in total face amount in force as of the second quarter of 2025, despite a decline in new issuances. Term Life segment revenues -- $442 million in Term Life revenues in the second quarter of 2025, a 3% year-over-year increase, while pretax income was $165 million, up 5% in the second quarter of 2025. Investment and savings products (ISP) sales -- $3.5 billion in sales, up 15% year over year in the second quarter of 2025, with ongoing momentum in variable annuities and managed accounts in the second quarter of 2025. ISP client asset values -- Ended at $120 billion, up 14% year over year in the second quarter of 2025. ISP segment revenues -- $298 million, a 14% increase in operating revenues in the second quarter of 2025, with asset-based revenues up 17% and sales-based revenues up 15% year over year in the second quarter of 2025. Mortgage loan volume -- U.S. closed loan volume reached $133 million (up 33%) in the second quarter of 2025, and Canadian referral program volume totaled $45 million (up 30%) year over year in the second quarter of 2025. Operating expenses -- Mainly due to higher variable growth-related costs and increased investment in technology and infrastructure in the second quarter of 2025. Holding company cash and investments -- Ended the second quarter of 2025 with $371 million in cash and invested assets. Primerica Life estimated RBC ratio -- 490% RBC ratio at the end of the second quarter of 2025. ISP sales guidance -- The company now expects full-year ISP sales growth to be "more than 10%" for fiscal 2025, following momentum through July. Segment guidance -- Full-year 2025 Term Life: adjusted direct premium (ADP) growth of around 5%, benefit and claims ratio of about 58% (full-year 2025 guidance), operating margin of around 22% for fiscal 2025 (Term Life segment guidance). Restatement correction -- The methodology for Canadian mutual fund flows and market value was restated during the quarter; no impact reported on consolidated financials or client asset values. Favorable mortality trend -- CFO Tracy Tan said, "mortality has been favorable, last four quarters and 12 months ... quite a few percentages lower than our long-term pre-pandemic baseline actuarial assumptions." ASP sales mix -- Variable annuities and managed accounts outpaced mutual funds, which saw more modest growth in the second quarter of 2025. Summary Primerica (NYSE:PRI) reported record results in several core metrics, offsetting pronounced headwinds in life insurance sales with robust growth in investment and savings products during the second quarter of 2025. Management revised guidance for new life policies downward by approximately 5% for fiscal 2025, citing persistent cost-of-living pressures, while simultaneously reaffirming a focus on aggressive recruiting efforts and retention of a materially expanded sales force. The company expects full-year ISP sales growth to be more than 10%, based on momentum through July. Elevated lapse rates in Term Life continue to be attributed to macroeconomic uncertainties but remain stable relative to recent periods, as discussed in the second quarter of 2025. CFO Tan confirmed that operating expense timing is affected by long-term technology projects, suggesting a possible increase in spending later this year as initiatives ramp up. Williams explained that strong July recruiting was driven by a discounted licensing fee incentive, resulting in over 50,000 new recruits in July 2025 despite ongoing economic headwinds. Management acknowledged a correction to client asset roll-forward data for Canadian mutual funds; this affected statistical reporting but had "no impact on our financial statements [or] client asset values" in the quarter. Williams stated that annuity product profitability is similar to other ISP products over time, with the current mix shift primarily affecting the timing of commission recognition, as discussed in the context of the most recent quarter. Primerica Life's estimated RBC ratio of 490% in the second quarter of 2025 is partly shaped by state regulatory limits on upstreamed capital and intentional preservation of balance sheet strength to support potential sales growth. Favorable mortality trends persist, with outcomes notably ahead of pre-pandemic expectations over the last four quarters and twelve months, and the potential for future assumption changes depending on further review. Growth in the sales force for ISP and mortgage products has shown early traction in 2025, with efforts continuing to overcome licensing and infrastructure challenges. Industry glossary Adjusted direct premium (ADP): Premiums received, adjusted for policy acquisitions and assumptions, used as a key top-line metric in the insurance segment. RBC ratio: Risk-Based Capital Ratio, a regulatory measure of statutory capital relative to minimum required capital for insurers. LDTI: Long Duration Targeted Improvements, an insurance accounting standard that changes measurement of insurance contract liabilities. Variable annuity: Insurance contracts whose value and payout are tied to the performance of underlying investments, often with optional guarantees. Sales-based revenues: Commissions and fees earned upon the sale of financial or insurance products, distinct from ongoing asset-based arrangements. Asset-based revenues: Revenues generated as a percentage of client assets under management or administration, recurring over time. Full Conference Call Transcript Glenn Williams: Thank you, Nicole, and thanks, everyone, for joining us. Primerica, Inc. delivered another strong quarter results that reflect the consistent performance of our business. Despite continued economic and government policy uncertainty, our investment clients remain committed to their long-term savings goals. Our life insurance clients recognize the importance of protecting their income, and our business opportunity is attracting a significant number of recruits. Our sales force plays a critical role in delivering protection and investment solutions to middle-income families when they need it most. As we sometimes see, our two main product lines respond differently to changes in the business environment, creating a good balance in our business model and financial results. Starting with our financial results, adjusted net operating income was $180 million during the 2025, up 6% year over year, while diluted adjusted operating EPS increased 10% to $5.46. These results reflect the continued strength within our investment savings products business and a steady contribution from our Term Life business. We continue to generate solid earnings growth and maintain our commitment to returning capital to stockholders. During the quarter, we returned a total of $163 million to stockholders through a combination of $129 million in share repurchases and $34 million in regular dividends. Looking at distribution, we recruited over 80,000 individuals during the second quarter and licensed nearly 13,000 new representatives, down 10% from the second quarter record set last year. This level of activity continues to fuel growth in our sales force. We ended the quarter with 152,592 life license representatives, up 5% compared to June 2024. Recruiting in the third quarter also started strong. Using a recruiting incentive, which has been effective in the past, we added over 50,000 new recruits in the month of July. We remain committed to growing our sales force and expect to grow between 23% in the full year of 2025. Turning to our sales results. We issued 89,850 new term life insurance policies during the second quarter and put in place over $30 billion in new term life protection for our clients, bringing our total face amount in force to a record $968 billion. On a year-over-year basis, the number of new life insurance policies and face amount issued declined 119% respectively. We believe the decline reflects a combination of continued cost-of-living pressures and ongoing uncertainty compounded by comparison to exceptionally strong results in the prior year period. Productivity at 0.2 policies per life insurance license representative per month was within our historical range of 0.20 to 0.24. Considering these stronger-than-expected headwinds, we're now projecting the total number of new life policies issued to decline around 5% in 2025 compared to full year 2024. Turning next to the ISP segment. Results were once again stronger than anticipated, with total sales during the quarter up 15% to $3.5 billion. We continue to see strong demand for variable annuities to managed accounts, while U.S. and Canadian mutual funds grew at a more modest pace. $227 million in the prior year period and client asset values ended the quarter at $120 billion, up 14% year over year. We see more clients focusing on saving for retirement, driving higher transactions volume and increased average sale size. This trend has the potential to continue based on the large number of individuals in the baby boomer and Gen X populations who are approaching retirement age. Given our momentum in the 2025 and strong sales in July, we expect full year ISP sales growth to be more than 10%. During the quarter, we discovered a need to correct our methodology for calculating outflows and market value for Canadian mutual fund assets included in our consolidated client asset roll forward statistical data. We updated the roll forward table in our financial supplement to provide investors with restated historical statistics. This correction had no impact on our financial statements, ISP product sales, nor the average or ending client asset values during the relevant periods. Net flows were impacted, but remained positive. Our mortgage business showed solid year-over-year growth in both the U.S. and Canada during the 2025. In the U.S., we had $133 million of closed loan volume, up 33% year over year. We are licensed to do business in 35 states through a total of nearly 3,400 licensed mortgage loan originators. Our referral program in Canada had $45 million U.S. dollars of closed loan volume, up 30% from a year ago. While mortgages currently represent a relatively small portion of our business, they provide our clients with a valuable financial tool while also creating a diverse income stream for our mortgage licensed sales force. Unique characteristics of each of our product lines can cause them to respond differently to changing business conditions. This quarter highlighted their complementary nature, with record ISP sales helping to offset the headwinds in life sales. Despite the pressure on new life sales, the size and stability of our life business continues to provide consistent earnings even in an uncertain environment. We remain well-positioned to deliver long-term value for our clients, our field, and our stockholders. With that, I'll hand it over to Tracy for the financial results. Tracy Tan: Thank you, Glenn, and good morning, everyone. The company's financial performance across all segments was very strong. Starting with Term Life, second quarter revenues of $442 million rose 3% year over year driven by 5% growth in adjusted direct premiums. The segment delivered solid performance, with pretax income of $165 million, up 5% compared to the prior year period. Our key financial ratios remain consistent with expectations and largely in line with the prior period. These included the benefits and claims ratio at 57.5%, the DAC amortization and insurance commissions ratio at 12%, the insurance expense ratio at 7.6%, and the operating margin at 23%. Overall, lapse rates for the quarter remain elevated, and were stable compared to the prior year period in aggregate. We continue to believe higher lapse rates are primarily driven by cost of living pressures and their impact on middle-income families. We believe that our clients are resilient over the long term, and value our services and products. Based on historical trends, we expect persistency to normalize as clients adapt to the evolving economic environment. Therefore, we do not expect any significant changes to our LDTI last assumption. We started to experience favorable mortality in the 2022, and continued to see favorable mortality trend relative to our expectations. Given the stable nature of our term life business, our full year guidance remains unchanged. To reiterate, we expect ADP to grow around 5% with a benefit and claims ratio at around 58%, the DAC amortization and insurance commissions ratio at around 12%, and the operating margin at around 22%. As a reminder, we will conduct our annual assumption study review in the third quarter which may impact our future guidance for T ratio. Continued sales momentum and growth in our client asset values drove record revenues in our investments and savings product segments. Second quarter operating revenues of $298 million increased 14% from the prior year period while pretax income rose 6% to $79 million. Sales-based revenues increased 15%, slightly outpacing the 11% increase in relevant sales, primarily driven by strong demand for variable annuities. Asset-based revenues increased 17% year over year compared to an 11% increase in average client asset values as we continued to benefit from strong client demand for products on which we earn higher asset-based commissions, namely U.S. managed accounts, and Canadian mutual funds sold under principal distributor model. Sales commissions for both sales and asset-based products increased relatively in line with revenues. The corporate and other distributed product segment recorded pre-tax adjusted operating income of $3 million during the quarter compared to $1 million in the prior year period. The year-over-year change was driven by an increase in net investment income primarily due to the growth in the size of the portfolio. Finally, consolidated insurance and other operating expenses were $154 million, up 8% year over year. The growth in expenses was primarily driven by higher variable growth-related costs in our ISP and Term Life segment and higher technology and infrastructure investments to support our sales force and business growth. We reiterate our full year outlook for expenses to increase in 2025 by around $40 million or 6% to 8%. Our invested asset portfolio remains well diversified, with a duration of 5.3 years and an average quality of A. The average rate on new investment purchases in our life companies was 5.65% for the quarter, with an average rating of A. The net unrealized loss in our portfolio continued to improve, ending the June with a net unrealized loss of $158 million. We believe that the remaining unrealized loss is a function of interest rates and not due to underlying credit concerns, and we have the intended ability to hold these investments until maturity. We continue to generate significant deployable capital underscoring the strength and reliability of our capital-light distribution model. The steady cash flow from our term life business is driven by the sizable in-force block of insurance policies and our use of reinsurance, which limits our exposure to mortality risk. The fee-based nature of our ISP business supports strong cash flow generation and the high rate of earnings conversion. This model allows us to consistently return value to stockholders, while also investing in long-term growth opportunities. Our holding company ended the quarter with $371 million in cash and invested assets. Primerica Life's estimated RBC ratio was 490%. We remain confident in our ability to maintain a strong capital position while supporting ongoing growth initiatives and continuing to return capital to stockholders. In both good and bad economic times, Primerica, Inc. has been able to deliver strong earnings, solid cash conversion, and superior return on equity. With that, operator, please open the line for questions. Operator: Thank you. And at this time, we will conduct our question and answer session. In order to get through as many questions as we can, please limit yourselves to one question only for each time that you queue. And our first question comes from John Barnidge with Piper Sandler. Please state your question. John Barnidge: Good morning, John. Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity. Can you talk about the decline in term license sales in the revised guidance? I know it's a point of sale that a monthly contributor like ISP, there's been concerns about cost of living as you've noted in your prepared remarks. Did that accelerate post Liberation Day? Glenn Williams: Thanks. Well, I think it's a combination as we said, John, of cost of living and then just some uncertainty, has led for most middle-income families living on a month-to-month type of budget, in a lot of a wait-and-see attitude. Let's see how prices turn out moving from here. Let's see what happens to interest rates. Let's see what happens to other issues that may not be clear yet. And, of course, very difficult to get a beat on that based on what media might be feeding the middle class. On either side of any one of those issues. So we've seen cost of living pressures for a number of years. I think we outstripped them last year and were able just to overcome them and show positive growth. But adding that wait-and-see element is what we see for those middle-income families that really have a very tight budget. And that, of course, impacts our term life sales, as well as our monthly investments in the ISP side of our business. The larger ticket investments, as we've discussed in the past, that move are not really related to a monthly budget. They're, you know, transfers of retirement accounts. They're, you know, estates that move from one generation to another. Those types of things are not impacted, as much, at least by monthly cost of living. So we see it first in our Term Life business. And we do believe that, as Tracy pointed out, this is a temporary issue. We do believe that middle-income families adapt to this over time. And the uncertainty becomes certainty. It may be different from last year's challenges, but at least it becomes certain, and then they begin to adapt and move forward. I think we're in a wait-and-see period right now that we've experienced, and that we see that first in term life sales. John Barnidge: My follow-up question, you talk about a lot of wait-and-see mode on how the cost of living pressures will burn up as the pushback. When you're talking about adding over 50,000 recruits in July, are these pushbacks actually an opportunity to recruit new agents? I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. Is an opportunity to recruit new agents? Glenn Williams: It cost a living pushbacks. I mean, you're being Absolutely. No. There's a pushback like, hey. I costs are going up. I don't know if I can commit to this. Well, okay. Well, I consider being an agent. Maybe you get some part-time work. Absolutely. There are generally both a push and a pull for most economic dynamics on a lot of what we do. But the positive side, of financial stress in recruiting is people looking for additional income. And so the attraction of our part-time opportunity absolutely plays into that. As we've said in the past, you know, kind of rampant unemployment does not help us because that creates the need for someone to get a paycheck on Friday not build a business over a long period of time. So when things get extreme, it may work a little differently. But, yes, while cost of living pressures and to a certain extent, employment uncertainty are reasonable, actually give us a little bit of a tailwind for recruiting while they might provide a headwind for that month's life insurance sales. So, yes, absolutely, you've defined that correctly. John Barnidge: Thank you. Operator: Your next question comes from Joel Hurwitz with Dowling and Partners. Please state your question. Joel Hurwitz: Good morning, Joel. Good morning. Tracy, you had mentioned in your prepared remarks that mortality continues to be favorable in the quarter. Can you just unpack the level of favorability versus expectation? And then in terms of the Q3 assumption review, I know you mentioned no change to the lapse rate, but any potential for changes to the mortality assumption as part of the review? Tracy Tan: Yes. Good morning, Joel. So mortality has been a trend we've been observing very closely. And in the 2022, we started to experience favorable more and for over more than ten quarters, at this point. We had initially been waiting to see if this was just a pull forward impact from COVID, which means that, you know, there could be a you know, earlier accelerated death rate and then somehow it's going to you know, stabilize over what the trend could turn out to be. But so far, we continue to see that the mortality has been favorable, last four quarters and twelve months, and we've seen that trend stabilizing downward. At this point, I think there's a potential likelihood that this is a trend to stay, clearly, in terms of magnitude, we're quite a few percentages lower than our long-term pre-pandemic baseline actuarial assumptions. So in the third quarter, the annual reviews we will certainly take a very close look and make a decision on if we change our long-term assumption to recognize this trend. Joel Hurwitz: Got it. That's very helpful, Tracy. And then moving to ISP, really good sales in the quarter. I guess just a question, I look at the sales-based margin was 123 basis points in the quarter. That's a bit below where you've been running the past several quarters. Any colors on the driver there? Tracy Tan: In terms of IFT margin, I think the part of the expenses is the impact because of the variable growth-related expenses that we have. And we also have commissions that are slightly higher than what you've seen in terms of dollars. We do try to true up as much as we can, but mid-year point, where we see that the total year trend is running favorable, so we, you know, do a true-up in the middle of the year, which may make the second quarter slightly higher than the first quarter. But it's in terms of the magnitude, based on the running rate of our growth and where the commission is headed. And the other part to consider also is as we see the growth trend of ISP last year was growing more than 20%, 25%, and this year we're continually on pretty strong double-digit top-line growth and our infrastructure has been a little bit stressed. In terms of catching up with the volume. So we continue to invest in technology, and infrastructure to support our ISP sales. So some of those are part of what we had announced earlier in the year in terms of expense investments that would be supporting our growth. So that's what you're seeing coming through for ISP, and that segment really deserves that buildup on technology and infrastructure. Joel Hurwitz: That makes sense. You, guys. Ryan Krueger: Your next question comes from Ryan Krueger with KBW. Please state your question. Hello, Ryan. Hey, good morning. A question on ISP sales. You mentioned they were still strong in July. I was hoping maybe you could give a little more color on that. Reason I ask is, I think you said you'd expect them to grow above 10% or more this year, but they were up over 20% in the first half of the year. So maybe you're maybe the above 10 is what you're emphasizing, but, just wanted to see if you expected any slowdown or should we kind of see the same momentum in the second half? Glenn Williams: Ryan, we've, you know, always asking how long can that far into the double-digit momentum continue. Particularly when you lap yourself, annually and you start comparing to the strong second-half results from last year. So we've been signaling that we do expect comparisons to get more difficult, bringing the percentage growth down. But we continue to see stronger than anticipated growth kind of month over month. So we did tick up the expectation now to above, 10% above, you know, in the double-digit growth range when we've guided to something less than double digits last quarter. So we are seeing continued strength. The comparisons with the second half of last year do get more difficult because this real momentum that we're experiencing today started in the second half. So we're seeing continued strength, but we're expecting it to moderate on a comparison basis. Ryan Krueger: Got it. Makes sense. And then just, one quick follow-up on lapses in Term Life. Are they still running basically similar to what they were in the first quarter or have you seen any change? Tracy Tan: Yeah. Good morning. In terms of lapse, we continue to see in aggregate the elevated lapse compared to our long-term LDTI assumptions, which is pre-pandemic. But in terms of comparative to the prior year, the overall trend is pretty steady. And we started to see the lapse rate stabilizing, you know, a few quarters earlier. Meaning that they are not elevating. Because during the pandemic, we have extraordinarily low lapse rates, and then after the pandemic, we see them run up. Because of the people who aren't committed and bought it during the pandemic period, and that is part of the reason that, for example, duration five, maybe the, you know, the duration that we continue to see most fall off in terms of lapse and ability to persist. But we're obviously still waiting for that to run off, and to us, that is an egg going through the snake at some point that falls off. But in aggregate, I think we're seeing a stable trend and we do believe that our consumers over the long term, if you look at the history of our forty years, you know, they learn to adapt. As the economic conditions, you know, evolve. So they're going to continue to value the policies, and we do believe that, going to stabilize over time. And by the way, our ADP assumption of growth that we give the guidance on of 5% already considered this elevated lapse rate. Ryan Krueger: Thank you. Jack Matten: Your next question comes from Jack Matten with BMO Capital Markets. Please state your question. Good morning, Jack. Good morning. Just a follow-up on the recruiting. Outlook in term life. I think you referenced over 50,000 recruits in July. Can you talk about the incentives that drove that strong level? And then in the second quarter, was pressure on recruiting, like, more prevalent early in the quarter? In April and then it improved? Or was there like, a different trend, I guess? Glenn Williams: Some of the comparison, Jack, is because we've had incentives in place in a slightly different calendar last year, which was kind of the perfect, positive storm. We had the convention last year, which gives us an opportunity to communicate these incentives to the entire a large portion of the Salesforce all at the same time. Rather than put it out through our normal communication channel. So you get a bigger response during a commission year. During a convention year. So, we decided to rerun a play that we did at the last convention. You know, if you want to become part of Primerica, Inc. and you have an insurance license there's absolutely no cost to become part of Primerica, Inc. to join. If you don't have an insurance license, we have a process to help you get one, and we do it at a very low rate. We discounted that licensing fee. In July. And, of course, that, the communication about that opportunity from our recruiters and our team. To those that recruit. We were very pleased considering all the other, you know, kind of negative economic headwinds and uncertainties we talked about earlier, to know what kind of response we might want to get. Very pleased to see that it was a powerful response. Our entrepreneurial opportunity is attractive or maybe even more attractive than ever. And, we had good excitement about spreading news and good response. To it. So, you've got a convention year last year we're comparing to. You got a little bit of different timing in the calendar. To kind of look through all that to really understand the results. We were extraordinarily pleased with the response we got in July. It gave us a good start to the third quarter. Jack Matten: Got it. That's helpful. Thank you. And then, maybe just one on capital. The RBC ratio moved up again nicely to 490% this quarter. I'm curious like when or if you might get in some of that excess up to the holding company. I think if Primerica, Inc. is having a relatively low-risk asset liability profile, so just curious why you're kind of running a looks to be a pretty conservative RBC ratio at the moment. Tracy Tan: Yes. Good morning, Jack. Our RBC ratio has a couple of things to take into consideration when you evaluate it. The first thing is that you know, the RBC ratio oftentimes is impacted also from the statutory regulatory restriction. Meaning how much you can take out has a rule by the state that you're domiciled in, and you can only take out those certain amounts based on your prior year statutory income. So we are taking out the maximum we can, you know, given that restriction, and we do our best to estimate what that might be and take out OviCam. And the second part to consider is we do have an overall desire to keep a very strong RBC ratio. Partly, it's because when we look at life insurance, if we had stronger growth, we wanted to be, you know, able to support that growth. And when the growth occurs, you know, there is a capital requirement need to write that policy and, you know, put out the reserve for the, you know, the claims. So that is another part to consider. But over the long haul, I think we do value to have a strong rating that really helps give clients in Salesforce the confidence when they look at using our protection product. So all of these are considerations. Now that being said, we are looking at all the options and alternatives on the best long-term strategy capital deployment and certainly in consideration of, you know, supporting the holdco for buybacks, for dividends and all the support of the growth and we're going to evaluate all the options to keep that ratio in a reasonable range in terms of supporting growth and as well as being able to take it out when we can to do all the things we need to do for our stockholders and growth. Dan Bergman: Your next question comes from Dan Bergman with TD Securities. Please state your question. Good morning, Dan. Hey, good morning. Just digging into your ISP sales a little more this quarter, there's really strong continued growth in variable annuities and managed accounts, but a little closer to flattish in U.S. mutual funds. There's still a really strong nominal level of sales there. But I was just hoping you could talk a little more about dynamics in these different product areas. And do you view the mix shift this quarter as a one-off given the high equity market volatility in the U.S.? Part of an ongoing trend given the shift towards more retirement savings? Glenn Williams: I think it's some of both, Dan. I think we do have a longer-term kind of demographic tailwind, as I mentioned in my script. From just kind of our aging society people moving toward retirement. Which would be positive for retirement products like variable annuities. I do think the uncertainty that we talked about, that probably impacts everyone to a certain extent, our view is for investors, you know, they look for guarantees in uncertain times or volatile times. And while I think there's confidence in the overall direction of the market, you know, you look at the history this year, it's been tremendously volatile. And so that's where the variable annuity guarantees, the guaranteed income options, or the upside market protection of the index-linked variable annuities, have real appeal to consumers. And I do think that the product providers have played into that and have continued to improve their products and make them appropriately more attractive, to that, to that marketplace. So my guess is and, again, I'm peering into a crystal ball, it's just entirely opinion, is that, you know, as people move toward retirement and want security there's likely the potential for a long-term trend here. Our other products continue to grow and continue to serve a fantastic purpose. Our managed account business that you mentioned is a newer business, and you would expect it to be faster growing. Coming off a smaller base, and it is. And it's something that our Salesforce, more people are getting licensed. And getting more experienced with that. And so we would expect that to grow faster. Than an established business. But our mutual fund business is the largest of all those businesses. And it still performs an important, important function particularly as we see those middle-income families moving through their periods of life. Many times, they start in mutual funds because the minimums are smaller. They're simpler products. They can understand. They're appropriate because they're simpler. Then later, they move into more sophisticated products. So our product set works together very, very well. We do see the mix shift according to economic conditions. But, it's very much what we would expect from this product set. Dan Bergman: Got it. That's very helpful. And then I think the mortgage volume showed nice growth this quarter. I think it was the highest it's been in a while. Just any more color on the trends here and the outlook for growth? And just maybe big picture thoughts on how much room is there for continued incremental growth if interest in mortgage rates remain elevated? Glenn Williams: Yes. We're very excited about the potential for our mortgage business. Canada has had some rate reductions. And that gave some early momentum to the referral program there. I think we're still waiting on rate reductions in the U.S. But back in times when rates were lower as this program came off the ground, it got a very fast start. You know, in the 2019 to 2021. And then and we kind of stalled out and we've treated a little bit, but now we're regaining that momentum. I think there's tremendous potential if we do get some rate reductions. You know, a lot of our advice around mortgages is around reducing debt and reducing your weighted average interest rate as a family. Interest rates come down, there are opportunities for refinancing, folding in high-interest rate credit card debt, all of that comes on the table with falling interest rates. So we're optimistic about the potential for the program and could be a real player in the future. For our company. Already, as we stated in the prepared remarks, important for clients and families and for our sales force, but there's upside for Primerica, Inc. as well in the future. Dan Bergman: Got it. Thanks so much. Wilma Burtis: Thank you. And your next question comes from Wilma Burtis with Raymond James. Please state your question. Good morning, Wilma. Hey, good morning. Could you talk about a little bit more specifically about what drove the good expense results in 2Q? I realize that you guys reiterated the full-year guide, but is there any sustainable element to the lower expenses in the quarter? Or is it more of a timing related to the ISP tech investments? Thanks. Good morning, Wilma. The expenses in the second quarter were certainly an aspect of timing and some of it also has to do with, you know, our investment in technology. So a combination of those. The projects, obviously, are long-term projects, many of those. You know, the timing of the start and when they get ramped up, could be more likely towards the third and fourth quarter at this point. And we obviously also are experiencing variable growth-related expenses that are associated with how the top line is going. And as ISP, for example, continues to be strong and you see some of the expenses coming through that segment a little bit stronger. Now in terms of full-year guidance, I think we remain in the 6% to 8% range, and just depends on how accelerated some of those technology and investments can be so that there could be some timing variable, depends on those as well. Wilma Burtis: Thank you. And then can you talk a little bit more about your efforts to grow the ISP Salesforce? And also to increase the diversity of sales by selling both Term Life and ISP across the sales force? Thanks. Glenn Williams: Sure, Wilma. We feel it's very important to continue to grow that sales force size as well. It's not as directly related to production. As it is on the term life side. There's a very close relationship in most circumstances between our life license sales force size and life production. But on the security side, there's so many more involved like confidence in the market like we're seeing today. Appeal of product set, mix shift, all the things that we talked about earlier. But we still believe having a growing base of Salesforce is critical. The process is more difficult for getting, securities license in individuals even if they're gonna be with a limited securities license as opposed to the full, you know, stock and bond license series seven. We generally use the series six and sixty-three. And that has proven to be more difficult and grow more difficult over time. So that has provided somewhat of a hurdle in that growth rate. However, we're pleased to we're beginning to see some traction. We had very good experience so far this year. In seeing some traction and growth in our security sales force. As well as the mortgage sales force that we discussed just a minute ago. So those other licenses are beginning to come through and we're gonna continue to feed that process and improvement. We have a lot of efforts going on among our team here and working with field leaders, to try to make sure that we provide all the resources to kind of navigate through the difficulties of that licensing process. We generally talk about the Salesforce just once a year and give a stat on it. We are seeing growth in it, this year. We're pleased that some of our efforts are beginning to show results. It does grow generally more slowly than our live sales force. Wilma Burtis: Thank you. Mark Hughes: Thank you. Your next question comes from Mark Hughes with Truist Securities. Please state your question. Hello, Mark. Yes, thank you. Hello, Glenn. The ISP momentum continuing in July are you seeing a little more mutual fund activity with the having bounced back? I think you said April was very poor, sentiment was soft. In your last call. Is that picking up some steam? Glenn Williams: The mix shift, Mark, it usually is not quite that real-time responsive. I mean, if we have a month or two or a quarter of positive returns, it's not like suddenly people go, oh, don't need those guarantees anymore. Let's move back over here into the lower guarantee or no guarantee business. It happens over longer-term trends and longer-term sentiment. So, you know, I don't have the data in front of me on the mix exactly. The month of July. But my gut tells me that it's similar to what we've seen in the past. And if it does change, it will change slightly over time rather than take a hard turn. So I don't think you've got much difference in mix shift. Probably just from a single month. Mark Hughes: Understood. You think about the term life sales, how do you think you stacked up relative to the industry's? Some of the industry data seem to be you know, it hasn't been great, but it's been a little more stable than your results. I wonder whether you think that's not reflective of your particular end markets or I'm just sort of curious how you see your experience versus the industry. Glenn Williams: Yes, that's a great question, Mark. I was looking earlier this morning at On, application activity in the industry. And what we're seeing is a lot of the industry positive is at the upper end of the age spectrum, 60 and above, even 70 and above. In extraordinarily large face amount. The growth in the know, the 30 year to date was, you know, just barely grow point 3% under 30 and one point two percent, between ages 30 and 50. Which that pretty much covers the vast majority of all the sales that we do since, you know, our philosophy is that term insurance is a temporary need while you're in income-earning mode. So we're not that far off the industry. I think the whole industry is struggling with the exception of those selling to older ages and large face amounts for estate planning purposes. We may be a little the industry this year just slightly, but I think we're way ahead of the industry last year. So it goes back to those difficult comparisons. But I think we're experiencing a lot of the same things that our peers are and as Tracy pointed out, we do believe you know, the resiliency of the middle-income market always amazes me. They do adapt over time. And what's uncertain today same conditions will be considered certain after you've lived through them for a few months. So we think it's a temporary issue. That will correct itself over time, perhaps even turn into positive you know, cost of living discussion, at some point in the future. But, certainly not for the immediate future. I think we're traveling pretty much in the pack for our age group, Mark, maybe a little behind this year because we're hit last year. We believe it's something that will correct itself over time. Mark Hughes: Very good. Thank you. Jeff Schmitt: Thank you. And your next question comes from Jeff Schmitt with William Blair. Please state your question. Hi, good morning. Hi, Glenn. Just curious how you're thinking about productivity here with it at the low end of the historical range. Do you think it could move below that? And what do we need to see for that to really turn around? Glenn Williams: I think productivity is just a math on the headwinds we talked about. You've got a couple of dynamics. It's a pretty simple calculation actually. So as we grow the sales force, the denominator becomes larger. It makes it more difficult to stay in the range just by the sheer number. But you've also got new people entering the Salesforce, and entering today at a time when those headwinds we've discussed are probably a little more significant than they were a year ago or maybe even two years ago. So you've got a couple of the mathematical dynamics working there. It is possible we could peek out the bottom of the range for a period of time. Do that math, it wouldn't surprise me or concern me just based on those things. But we do know, that over time, we tend to move back to the middle. And so as we, you know, we, address issues of confidence in this of environment for salespeople. Maybe we get a little, if not, relief from cost of living. At least we accommodate the cost of living in the middle market. We tend to move back to the middle of the range over time. So I think you're continue to see pressure on that ratio for the rest of this year. But over the long haul, we'd expect it to get back towards the middle. Jeff Schmitt: Okay. And does that suggest, I guess, that the surge in the Salesforce last year you may have brought on some sort of less committed or just lower productivity sales agents and maybe that kinda corrects itself over the next year or two. Glenn Williams: That's possible, Jeff, but I gotta tell you that our sales force is so large, and we've been doing this for so long. And we go for excellent quality individuals. I'm so proud of our sales force and the quality of what they do. I think it's the more difficult sales environment, not the commitment or ability of the salespeople that we're seeing today. And so I think that it's possible. Don't think that's probable. I think it's the environment. We've got people entering the business a tougher sales environment now. Than we did in the past. I think that environment will change over time. And their skill set will grow just like the middle market will adapt to living in a high cost of living environment. Salespeople adapt to selling in a high cost environment, get better at it. So I think it's quality or commitment. Jeff Schmitt: Okay. That's helpful. Thank you. Suneet Kamath: Certainly. And your next question comes from Suneet Kamath with Jefferies. Please state your question. Good morning, Suneet. Hey, Glenn. How are you? So I had a question on annuity sales. You know, if I just think back to, you know, historically, they've been about a quarter of ISP sales roughly. And just over the past few quarters, we're now about a third. If we stay at that mix, does that impact the P and L at all? Does it cause it to change relative to maybe what we're used to seeing? Just wondering if that's going to be something that we should focus on. Thanks. Glenn Williams: I think we view profitability of products as being very similar. It's a timing of when we're compensated on products. Variable annuities tend to have more upfront at the point of sale compensation. And a little less compensation and based on assets. But the profitability of the product is pretty close to some of the others, most of the others. So I think you see it as we've seen this quarter when the mix shifts toward variable annuities, you see, you know, sales-based commissions outstripping the total. And then if the product mix shifts back, it kind of corrects itself as well. So, you know, we have never tried to manage product mix and say, oh my gosh. Too much of it going toward product that's a little less, profitable because the profitability over time is so close. So, I think the shift that we're seeing, again, it is happening because of the conditions and because of the, the excellent response to the current economic and market conditions of our product providers that are stepping up and providing features of products that meet the needs of consumers. So they're becoming very attractive. But, you know, that's kind of the front-end view. I'll go to Tracy and see if you think you know, p and l was impacted by mix shift toward variable annuities in any way to help to meet with that. Tracy Tan: Yeah. I agree with Glenn. I think it's more of a timing. And, most of the products, you know, in the long run, it kind of evens itself out. Suneet Kamath: Got it. Okay. That makes sense. And then I guess sticking with variable annuities, you know, Glenn, as a distributor, I think you have a good sense of, you know, product design and, know, we're starting to hear a little bit from some of the carriers about some aggressive features particularly in the Rilam market. Just wondering what you're seeing, if you're seeing any of that? And when you think about your product providers, do you tend to stick with the same sort of handful of carriers? Or do you sort of swap in and out kind of over time? Thanks. Glenn Williams: Yeah. Let me take those questions in reverse order because I think your second question helps your first question. We absolutely stick with a narrow shelf of very high-quality product providers that we have a long-term relationship with which is important for our business relationship with them, but it's also important so they our philosophy around these products. You know, the annuity business during my forty-plus career of being here has been prone to excess at various times. And so we're always on alert watching for companies that are going a little bit beyond the pale in what they're offering and the type of risk that they're offloading on the client. We've always stayed away from that. I mean, we were very careful entering the variable annuity business. We've been more careful entering the indexed annuity business because, years ago before the financial crisis, probably full of excess. But, those crises tend to work those excesses out, and then they come back with better products. But, fortunately, the high-quality partners we have don't follow that path. They take a long-term view. They want to make sure they have lifetime relationships with clients just like we do. And so they tend not to get over into the red zones, that some of the other product providers that we don't represent. That said, we do have a committee, a team, that analyzes products, determines if they're suitable for our clientele before we put them on our product shelf even among our high-quality providers. So, yes, there is the tendency to need for companies to do that. We're on guard against that at all times, and I don't see us bearing any risk at that point of getting over into inappropriate products. That some others might. Suneet Kamath: Got it. Thanks, Glenn. Operator: Thank you. And that was our last question for today. So with that, we will conclude today's call. All parties may now disconnect and have a great day. Where to invest $1,000 right now When our analyst team has a stock tip, it can pay to listen. After all, Stock Advisor's total average return is 1,046%* — a market-crushing outperformance compared to 181% for the S&P 500. 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