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Counties see early release of inmates as potential unfunded mandate for country jails

Counties see early release of inmates as potential unfunded mandate for country jails

Yahoo18-04-2025

PLATTSBURGH — County sheriffs in the region have concerns about the cost of housing an increased number of inmates as the state attempts to deal with staffing shortages at state correctional facilities, made worse by a recent 22-day correction officer strike.
The state's planned early release of certain inmates to alleviate a shortage of correction officers poses an essentially 'unfunded mandate' when county jails house formerly incarcerated individuals which violate probation while under state supervision, said Franklin County Sheriff Jay Cook.
Cook and Franklin County Manager Donna Kissane said the state should either reimburse counties for the cost of housing inmates released early which violate probation, or else rethink its early-release plan.
'County jails were never intended to serve as extensions of the state prison system. The current practice effectively shifts the costs of supervision and incarceration from the state to local governments without any accompanying financial support,' Kissane wrote in an April 10 letter to Gov. Kathy Hochul, a copy of which was released to The Press Republican.
NOT ENOUGH
Clinton County Sheriff David Favro said counties do receive $100 per day reimbursement from the state for housing inmates picked up for parole violations or inmates otherwise waiting to be transferred to state correctional facilities, but the payment does not cover the cost and takes a long time to process.
The federal government pays $130 per day, he said.
State Department of Corrections and Community Supervision Daniel Martuscello said that inmates to be released early would have been released soon either way.
'They were going out into the community based on their release date within the next 90 days anyhow. We're just advancing that under Correction Law 73 which I have the authority to do,' he said, in a statement released Tuesday.
'Again, I have broader authority, but we made it very narrowly focused to ensure public safety.'
Cook, in a telephone interview on Monday, said he does know how many inmates will be released early to Franklin County.
'That's part of the problem. No one knows,' he said.
'The point is one is too many if we are not reimbursed.'
In the past, the county has housed one to a few state-supervised inmates which violated parole from time to time, with periods in between when none were housed.
Earlier this month, Martuscello directed that a list be compiled of inmates which could be released early to alleviate correction officer shortages after the recent 22-day correction officer strike.
Those convicted of violent felonies and non-drug-related felonies, Class B-to-E violent felonies, and sex offenses would not be eligible for early release.
To be released early, qualifying inmates must have a department-approved residence to be released to, other than a homeless shelter or Department of Social Services placement.
Martuscello said Tuesday that less than 700 inmates statewide will be released early.
DELAYS
Favro, the Clinton County sheriff, said in a telephone interview on Tuesday that a larger concern is the delay of the state transferring inmates from county jails to state facilities because the state is not able to accept them due to staffing shortages.
It's not just the cost of housing itself, but the uncertainly of staffing levels and ordering of food, which must be estimated in advance, he said.
There is also concern about uncertainty over who will pay for medical treatment as counties house inmates for the state for longer periods of time, said Essex County Sheriff David Reynolds.
'I don't think the state has really addressed that,' he said, in a telephone interview on Tuesday.
Clinton County, as of Tuesday, was housing 26 'state-ready' inmates, because the state could not accept them.
Essex County, as of Tuesday, was housing three 'state-ready' inmates.
'The longer this goes, the more we're going to wind up with,' Reynolds said.
Reynolds said the issues of inmates released early and the delay in transfer of state-ready inmates are equally concerning.
Cook said that in addition to reimbursing counties for the cost of housing probation violators, that the state should be sure it has sufficient staff to supervise inmates release early, before moving forward with the early release plan.
'It is imperative that Governor Hochul reviews the early release of inmates throughout the county and continues supervision. If the state cannot guarantee proper oversight through the Division of Parole, then the release of such individuals should not be granted,' Cook said, in a news release.
'We've taken a very narrowly focused approach to this to make sure we're balancing the staffing crisis with preserving public safety by eliminating certain crimes like A1 and A2 offenses other than non-drug violent felony offenses and any sex offenses are not eligible for this whatsoever," Martuscello said.
"It's really just non-violent felony offenses that are already approved to go out the door within the next 90 days.' Martuscello said.
Kissane said the county recognizes and supports the broader goals of justice reform, including reducing prison populations and supporting successful reentry, 'However such efforts must be accomplished by equitable financial responsibility," she wrote.

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'We won't allow facts to be buried': Hogsett investigative report omissions raise concerns
'We won't allow facts to be buried': Hogsett investigative report omissions raise concerns

Indianapolis Star

timean hour ago

  • Indianapolis Star

'We won't allow facts to be buried': Hogsett investigative report omissions raise concerns

Republicans and a few Democrats on the Indianapolis City-County Council want answers about why the investigation probing misconduct in Mayor Joe Hogsett's administration omitted any mention of the mayor's late-night and personal text messages to two female junior staffers in its final report. IndyStar reported last week that Caroline Ellert and Lauren Roberts — two former Hogsett staffers who alleged Hogsett's former chief of staff Thomas Cook harassed and assaulted them — provided information to the law firm investigators compiling the report that did not appear in it. Some councilors are arguing to withhold the $450,000 payment for the report until the law firm, Chicago-based Fishers Phillips, answers questions about the omission. The text messages the women provided to investigators contradicted some of what appears in the final report — including Hogsett's assertion that he knew nothing about Roberts' personal life. Instead, the text messages showed that Hogsett knew Roberts' then-partner's name and joked that she needed his permission to date the partner. Council Democrat John Barth called June 9 for the city to withhold payments to the law firm Fisher Phillips until the investigators address why they did not include this information in the report. In addition, Barth raised concerns about "clear discrepancies" between the mayor's public statements and the "documented evidence shared by two survivors." "Their accounts suggest that the culture of inappropriate conduct extended to the highest levels of city leadership," Barth said. "It appears that the 'tone at the top' was set by the mayor himself." Council Minority Leader Michael-Paul Hart, a Republican, also said in a statement that the public "deserves transparency, and survivors deserve accountability." "We won't allow facts to be buried or voices to be ignored," Hart said. Council Republicans also called for several additional action steps, including an oversight hearing, more documentation from Fisher Phillips and a public addendum to the report "documenting evidence and findings omitted from the official version." Hogsett did not dispute the accuracy of the text messages but declined to answer IndyStar's specific questions about them. Instead, he said in a June 5 statement that "there have been many lessons learned and I believe working together we can continue to move our city forward." Meanwhile, two other council members—Democratic Socialist Jesse Brown and Democrat Andy Nielsen — have so far both called on Hogsett to resign. After the law firm's report release but before the two women publicly shared their texts from the mayor, Nielsen said the mayor's actions constituted a leadership failure. The Fisher Phillips report found that despite a recommendation from Human Resources that Cook be fired from his city job in 2020, Hogsett allowed Cook to stay on for 68 days to work on economic development projects and then resign. Cook was also heavily involved in his 2023 mayoral campaign. The rest of the Democratic caucus —led by Democratic Council President Vop Osili, Vice President Ali Brown, and Majority Leader Maggie Lewis — did not immediately respond to IndyStar's request for comment on the omissions from the report. Democrats have a supermajority on the council. Barth's statement didn't address whether the mayor should stay in office but said there should be "accountability at every level." As a matter of process, it's not up to the City-County Council whether Hogsett stays in office. An impeachment process exists, but is largely controlled by the Indiana General Assembly. Recall elections also don't exist here. More: Can Indiana mayors be removed from office? There's a law, but it's rare, experts say. But the calls for accountability are politically significant, even if councilors can't take direct action. The mayor losing political support on the City-County Council could impact his ability to effectively govern. As one of two Republicans on the council's seven-member Investigative Committee that hired Fisher Phillips to investigate Hogsett, Councilor Joshua Bain said the firm's lawyers wouldn't answer the committee's questions about their findings throughout the monthslong investigation. Now councilors are left with what feels like an incomplete report, Bain said. 'I felt like this report is actually going to end up making things worse and people are going to continue to not feel heard," Bain said. "People are going to continue to think things are getting swept under the rug." In a February Council meeting, Fisher Phillips lawyers reviewed their investigative methods in a presentation to councilors but kept their specific findings secret. Bain and fellow Republican Brian Mowery said they asked multiple follow-up questions about the hundreds of pages of documents the lawyers said they had gathered, their meetings with city leaders and any search terms that lawyers were singling out in text messages. "Because this is an interim report, we prefer to keep the details of what's been discussed and what we've found very high-level," Fisher Phillips Danielle Kays responded at the time, "because disclosing information could affect the integrity of our investigation and what information is provided to us or told to us." To restore public trust, Bain called on the lawyers to answer questions about their process now. Fisher Phillips did not answer multiple questions from IndyStar sent last week about why the text messages that contradict assertions in the report were not included. "Fisher Phillips is being paid $450,000," Bain said. "I think the least they can do is set some time aside and do a follow-up hearing with us." Committee Chairwoman Crista Carlino did not respond to IndyStar's request for comment on Monday, though council members indicated on May 29 that their work to stop future abuse from happening to city workers was just beginning. The ordinance that created the investigative committee indicates the council would prepare its own report that would detail "the conclusion of their investigation, including the method of their investigation and any evidence discovered." The Hogsett administration previously also said it would seek to work with the council on recommendations from the report, which included dissolving the city's current HR department in favor of an independent structure. Meanwhile, an impending June 9 evening City-County Council meeting has garnered interest by those calling for Hogsett's resignation. The group Indiana Progressive Democrats has called on Hogsett to resign and urged people to show up to the Monday evening meeting. "Stand with survivors, workers and every resident who believes in a better Indianapolis," according to the group's Facebook post. "Our presence shows that we will not accept silence or complicity any longer." Democrats also met privately over the weekend to discuss the situation, according to someone close to the caucus who asked to remain anonymous because they were not authorized to disclose Democratic caucus meetings. They did not share any conclusions that were reached or any details of that meeting.

2 people charged with arson, accused of starting fires in Sask.
2 people charged with arson, accused of starting fires in Sask.

Yahoo

time3 days ago

  • Yahoo

2 people charged with arson, accused of starting fires in Sask.

While wildfires continue to rage in the province, two Saskatchewan residents are separately charged with arson for allegedly deliberately setting fires. At Friday's daily media briefing, Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe announced the charges and said that one of them was for starting one of the province's major wildfires. But in a news release later in the afternoon, the RCMP detailed charges that were laid for two suspicious fires — one that Waskesiu RCMP responded to off Highway 696 on May 30 and one that Nipawin RCMP responded to in a ditch beside the Snowden turnoff on Highway 55 on June 3. Neither of those appear to be related to a major wildfire. The fire that Moe initially referred to, the Ditch fire, near Weyakwin, was reported on May 26. It has grown to 95,000 hectares and appears to be moving very close to the massive Shoe fire — the largest blaze in the province at more than 470,000 hectares. Those fires and others in northern Saskatchewan have forced thousands of residents from their homes. The province declared a state of emergency on May 29 due to the wildfire situation. As of Friday, there were 23 active fires and 248 total fires this year — far above the five-year average of 139. "We understand there is public interest in seeing if any wildfires can be fully or partially attributed to criminal acts," Saskatchewan RCMP wrote in the media release. "Checking into the circumstances of each report of arson received recently will take some time." The 18-year-old woman from Montreal Lake Cree Nation charged in the May 30 fire was scheduled to appear in court in that community on Thursday, while the 36-year-old man from Pelican Narrows charged in the June 3 fire was scheduled to appear in Prince Albert provincial court on Friday. Shifting winds bring fresh wildfire threat to La Ronge Strong winds pushing a wildfire toward the industrial park and Eagle Point areas, just northeast of the town of La Ronge, triggered an alert for the region on Friday morning. The community is already subject to an evacuation order, but any people that haven't left those particular areas were told to get to a safe place. Tammy Cook-Searson, chief of the Lac La Ronge Indian Band, said the situation is serious and unpredictable. "The wind has shifted. It's coming in from the southwest right now and it's pushing the fire northeast," she said on Friday morning. Cook-Searson said the Pisew Fire, which began near Hall Lake, has since grown to threaten several surrounding communities. There have been significant structure losses in both Hall Lake, west of La Ronge, and Sucker River, north of La Ronge, due to the fire. "The fire is less than two kilometres just north of Sucker River and it's heading northeast," she said. "And then there's also the fire that has reached Clam Bridge, where the bridge has burnt and the structure has been lost there, and it's moving northwest." Cook-Searson confirmed that both Highway 2 and Highway 102 are currently closed and impassable due to wildfire activity. Any people still in La Ronge are being directed to the Jonas Roberts Memorial Community Centre, which is serving as the local muster point. "Right now it's unpredictable," Cook-Searson said. "The flames were pretty big this morning just before 5 a.m. right behind the fire base on the Industrial Road in the town of La Ronge."Cook-Searson said emergency crews are working hard to hold the line. "We are expecting rain starting at noon today," she added. "So hopefully it materializes and fingers crossed that we do get that rain — much needed rain — because the fires are burning out of control." Residents are urged to stay away from the area and continue following evacuation guidance from local officials and emergency services. As thousands evacuated La Ronge due to an advancing wildfire, some residents made the difficult decision to stay behind — hoping to protect their homes and keep watch over their community. Terry Hunt is one of them. Speaking to CBC Radio's Blue Sky, Hunt said he remained in La Ronge to defend his property and voiced concerns about what he sees as an inadequate provincial response. "We're in a pretty tough situation up here, and I'm feeling that our provincial government is not doing enough to help us out," Hunt said. Hunt said the community was without power and alleged there had been looting. RCMP confirmed one report of looting in a news release Friday, saying officers stopped a vehicle at a checkpoint on Highway 2 on Wednesday that had been stolen from La Ronge and found items in it that were linked to a theft in the community the day before. Two men were charged. Police say officers are regularly patrolling evacuated communities as part of wildfire response efforts. Still, Hunt believes more boots on the ground — including military support — are urgently needed. "I think we need more police on the ground, which includes the armed forces coming up here," he said. Despite the hardship and danger, some evacuees have found small ways to stay hopeful. Some drivers fleeing La Ronge earlier in the week were forced to wait for hours on the highway due to smoke and fire. That's where Terri Roberts and others met up with a friend — whose granddaughter was having a birthday. They brought the cake along, and sang right there on the roadside. "She was holding her cake and we all started singing Happy Birthday to her outside of the car.… I've never experienced something like that, but it was pretty emotional," Roberts said. "She was just full of smiles and we could see she was quite appreciative of what we did for her." Roberts says they eventually made it south to info on active fires, smoke and related topics is available at these sources:

Attorney: Hogsett probe omitted 'uncomfortable' texts from mayor, contradicted women's claims
Attorney: Hogsett probe omitted 'uncomfortable' texts from mayor, contradicted women's claims

Yahoo

time4 days ago

  • Yahoo

Attorney: Hogsett probe omitted 'uncomfortable' texts from mayor, contradicted women's claims

The highly anticipated investigatory report into Indianapolis Mayor Joe Hogsett's handling of sexual harassment and assault allegations omits key details, say the women at the heart of the complaints, including late-night and personal texts from the mayor they told investigators made them feel uncomfortable. The report by Chicago-based law firm Fisher Phillips also includes substantive discrepancies from the women's own records they handed over to investigators, which were later obtained by IndyStar. An attorney for the two women said they have been revictimized by the investigative process that appears to take the mayor's statements as fact while diminishing the statements and evidence provided by the women as claims. 'Ms. Roberts and Ms. Ellert not only experienced significant difficulty attempting to report the abuse in the first place — indeed, Ms. Roberts has never been presented with a formal channel to do so — but this investigative process has caused them further unnecessary distress and harm,' said Mark Sniderman, a lawyer representing the women. 'Regardless, they participated voluntarily because of their core commitment to supporting other survivors and changing the systems that continue to harm them. All survivors and whistleblowers deserve better.' The Indianapolis City-County Council ordered and paid for the probe independent of the mayor's office. The action followed allegations first reported by IndyStar in July 2024 from three women who say Thomas Cook, the mayor's former right-hand man and chief of staff, repeatedly harassed and mistreated them when they worked as Cook's subordinates. One of those women alleged Cook sexually assaulted her while he served as the mayor's chief of staff. More: 'I kept saying no': Women accuse top Hogsett aide of preying on subordinates for years The city paid $450,000 for the 54-page report, which revealed Hogsett allowed Cook to resign from the city in 2020 and stay on for about two months to work on economic development projects, despite a recommendation from the city's human resources director that Cook be fired for violating city policy by engaging in an inappropriate sexual relationship with another subordinate employee. The report also concluded Hogsett's administration had followed all applicable law in its handling of the women's claims. Lauren Roberts and Caroline Ellert, two of the women who allege Cook abused them, provided investigators with text messages, hours of interviews and other documentation. But they found the resulting report — which they saw for the first time after it was presented to the public on May 29 — appeared to contradict some of that evidence, according to a statement their lawyer provided to IndyStar: Where the report hinges on Hogsett's account that Ellert didn't use the words 'sexual assault' to describe her allegations against Cook in a 2023 phone call, she asserted that she did and told investigators that. Where the report says Hogsett had no knowledge of Roberts' personal life, texts she provided to investigators show otherwise. Where the report asserts Cook 'and other members' of the administration engaged in 'at times professionally inappropriate workplace conduct,' it didn't mention Roberts and Ellert told investigators Hogsett's messages to them also crossed professional boundaries. Fisher Phillips investigators declined to comment on several questions posed to them by IndyStar. The report has already caused significant political fallout: Democratic City-County Council member Andy Nielsen, who served on the investigative committee, earlier this week became the second council member to call for Hogsett to resign over what he said was a leadership failure by the mayor. Democratic socialist Jesse Brown called for Hogsett's resignation after the 2024 reporting. Cook in the past apologized for his conduct, though he didn't participate in the Fisher Phillips investigation. He has not been charged with a crime. Hogsett, meanwhile, has defended his handling of his past investigations into Cook. The mayor has called on the council to study how to implement various reforms recommended in the investigative report, including dissolving the city's HR department in favor of an independent structure and appointing an inspector general. More: A 'fraternity' culture and an 'opportunity' for self-dealing: 6 insights from Hogsett investigation Hogsett, in a statement, did not answer IndyStar's specific questions about the discrepancies alleged by Roberts and Ellert, nor did he dispute the substance of the text exchanges. Instead, he reiterated the report's findings that his actions in response to the complaints complied with the law. "My cooperation was not only unprecedented but incredibly important to me," he said, referring to the Fisher Phillips investigation. "I have a commitment to the people of this City and the employees of this enterprise to do all we can to make sure our employees feel safe in their working environment. There have been many lessons learned and I believe working together we can continue to move our City forward. I am focused on the future and the next 2 ½ years of this term." He also referred questions about the report to Fisher Phillips. The most glaring omission in the report, according to the women's lawyer, is not referring to the contents of the text message exchanges with the mayor that Roberts and Ellert provided to investigators. 'Ms. Roberts and Ms. Ellert voluntarily provided these messages to investigators and underscored their concerns about the mayor's behavior as both their boss and as a person in a position of authority,' Sniderman said. In at least one instance, those messages contradict an assertion by Hogsett in the report, in which the mayor 'stated (Roberts) never mentioned personal life concerns and that he did not know anything personally about her.' A 2015 text message exchange between Roberts and Hogsett provided to investigators and obtained by IndyStar shows the mayor knew her then-partner's name and referred to Roberts as 'feisty.' After Roberts messaged Hogsett about campaign logistics for the following morning, Hogsett told her 'Happy Valentines Day.' 'Tell (redacted) that he has to get my approval since I'm older than your Dad,' wrote Hogsett, who was 58 at the time. Roberts was 26. Roberts said 'thanks but no thanks,' asserting she didn't need his approval. Hogsett responded again: 'Does he appreciate how feisty you are?' About 20 minutes passed as she weighed how to respond. 'I would imagine so,' she replied. 'Easy now,' he said. She did not respond further. Roberts gave the exchange to investigators and told them it left her feeling 'uneasy' at the time. She resigned from the Hogsett campaign a few months later. Text messages provided to investigators by Ellert reveal the mayor reaching out unprompted late at night. She told investigators the messages made her feel "uncomfortable" and described them as "erratic." She also described being uncomfortable at the time to at least one member of the administration, according to text messages from the same evening obtained by IndyStar. At 10:15 p.m. on June 12, 2020, Hogsett texted Ellert about a years-old photo of the two of them. At the time, Ellert was 26 and was the executive director of the Marion County Democratic Party, a position that often put her at the behest of the mayor, then 63. 'Can I tell you that the picture of you and me in front of the seal (which I know you did not want to take nor did you like taking) is my absolute favorite,' Hogsett wrote. 'It appears so real, as uncomfortable as it may have made you.' He continued in a second message: 'It's almost as if we are both proud that the picture memorializes us in that particular moment, however long ago and that we are happy and proud of each other. I know you weren't but you faked it well.' Ellert didn't respond. Two days earlier, Hogsett had asked her extensively via text about her preferred poetry in another after-hours exchange that appeared to span a few hours. After initially texting Ellert about work-related logistics, he followed up about poetry: 'So, last question. Which poem do you find more meaningful and/or compelling: 'The Wasteland' or 'The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock'?' The topic was familiar — yet unnerving — to Ellert: Cook also had showered her with poetry, including one time placing a poetry book on her desk even after she asked him to maintain appropriate boundaries at work. Hogsett proceeded to ask for her favorite poetry, saying he would read it that night. The mayor then sent repeated messages asking, in various ways, for Ellert's advice on an unspecified issue. In one, he said, 'I care what you think?' 'This entire thing is completely frackup. Advise me how to deliver,' he said in another text. The next: 'I am asking.' The next: 'I need your advice. Thanks' At that point, Ellert asks what he's talking about. Hogsett responded, 'Like what I am going through now?' 'It is only 9am,' he wrote, then correcting the time to "9pm" in a follow-up message. 'So tell me what I should do.' She asked again what he needs advice on. Hogsett replied, 'about all things.' In several follow up messages, the mayor implored Ellert to respond, saying, "Talk to me," "Please," and 'Hello: it's only 9:36pm' The final investigatory report by Fisher Phillips makes no mentions of the messages — or the concerns the young women had shared about those communications with investigators — even though it contains a section on workplace culture in the Hogsett administration and notes Cook "and others" acted unprofessionally around women and other employees. Ellert and Roberts' lawyer said the report "fails to account for all of the evidence that my clients provided and misses the full scope and import of the relevant issues." About three years later, having secured a job away from the Hogsett administration and outside Cook's 'perceived sphere of influence,' as the report notes, Ellert made the decision to report her sexual harassment and assault allegations against Cook to Hogsett. She relayed her testimony in a September 2023 phone call with Hogsett and the city-county's corporation counsel. The final report asserts as fact, twice, that Ellert did not use the term 'sexual assault' during that call. "While (Ellert) did not use terms 'sexual assault' or 'rape,' Mayor Hogsett understood what (Ellert) had described (i.e., non-consensual sex), though she did not use the specific term sexual assault," the report reads. However, she and her lawyer assert she did use that term in the phone call, and they told this to Fisher Phillips investigators. They confirmed this characterization in follow-up correspondence with investigators obtained by IndyStar. 'The report consistently construes the mayor's statements as facts and my clients' statements as mere claims,' Sniderman said. "The mayor claimed that she did not use the term 'sexual assault' during her initial conversation with him in 2023 concerning Mr. Cook's conduct. However, Ms. Ellert clearly told investigators otherwise." Another point of contention was who was really responsible for Roberts as an employee when she worked for the Hogsett campaign more than a decade ago. The Fisher Phillips report asserts Roberts was actually an employee of the Indiana Democratic Party while working for the Hogsett campaign. That contradicts a memorandum of understanding Hogsett signed in 2014 which Roberts provided to investigators, as well as an email from a party attorney. The MOU Hogsett signed when Roberts took a job with his campaign clearly states Roberts is "employed by the Committee," referring to the campaign, and that the state party "is not my employer." It was an agreement spelling out the party's role as a payroll processor. The email, from attorney Karen Celestino-Horseman to Roberts in 2019, states Roberts was 'not employed by the state party' but the party merely handled payroll, as it does for other campaign staff. Roberts has previously asserted that neither the party nor the campaign wanted to take responsibility for handling her harassment case. More: 'No one wanted the ball': Women who experienced harassment say Democrats' response lacked She said she fears complaints made by campaign workers will continue to fall through the cracks if that doesn't change. The women's attorney, Sniderman, said Ellert and Roberts are speaking out in order to advocate for themselves and others who have been "targeted by workplace abuse." "Their goal remains the same," he said. "To help end these cycles of abuse." Contact senior government accountability reporter Hayleigh Colombo at hcolombo@ Contact IndyStar state government and politics reporter Kayla Dwyer at kdwyer@ or follow her on X@kayla_dwyer17. Sign up for our free weekly politics newsletter, Checks & Balances, by IndyStar political and government reporters. This article originally appeared on Indianapolis Star: Hogsett investigation: Late-night texts from mayor, key details left out

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