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- CNN
What Trump and Putin Want Out of Their Summit - CNN Political Briefing - Podcast on CNN Podcasts
Angela Stent 00:00:01 'This isn't only about Ukraine. This is about resetting the U.S.-Russian relationship, which is what Donald Trump has wanted to do since, you know, he came into office on January the 20th, and which Putin would love to do, too. David Chalian 00:00:15 'Angela Stent is a former national intelligence officer and a leading expert on US-Russia relations. With Putin and President Trump meeting in Alaska this week, I wanted to get her insight on their relationship going into this summit. Trump has often bragged about his warm relationship with the Russian president. But in recent weeks, he's expressed growing frustration with Putin and his resistance to a ceasefire in Ukraine. So, has Trump really soured on Putin? And what does that mean for this summit? And what might be Putin's ultimate goal in negotiating with Trump? I'm CNN's Washington Bureau Chief and Political Director David Chalian, and this is the CNN Political Briefing. Stay with us. Angela, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Angela Stent 00:01:04 I'm glad to be on your show. David Chalian 00:01:06 Heading into this summit, I wanted to speak to you, a longtime Russia expert, Russia observer, somebody who has studied Vladimir Putin, to just get a sense first from you — take us inside sort of Putin's thinking as best you can, heading into a moment like this. What does he hope to accomplish here? What would be a success for him? What would be a failure for him? How does he perceive this kind of moment? Angela Stent 00:01:37 So it's already a success for him that he's being invited to the United States. We have to remember he's an indicted war criminal, and there are a number of countries where he can't go. And going to Alaska, which of course used to belong to the Russian Empire and which the U.S. purchased from Russia in 1867. So that's the first point. David Chalian 00:01:55 Though he's not going to try to purchase it back, I don't think. Angela Stent 00:01:57 'I don't think. You know, we have a real estate deal person as the U.S. president. I don't think he's mentioned that, but we don't know yet. So what Putin wants to accomplish is he wants to come. He wants to charm President Trump. There's a whole other agenda here, which is the business agenda. Trump has already offered to Russia investments in Alaskan oil as one of his big pet projects, also rare earths. So Putin's bringing a business delegation with him. So we should remember this isn't only about Ukraine. This is about resetting the U.S.-Russian relationship, which is what Donald Trump has wanted to do since, you know, he came into office on January the 20th and which Putin would love to do, too. So Putin is going into this, I think, feeling fairly self-confident. He knows that President Trump wants to reset this relationship, that he wants to come out saying, we have much better relations with Russia than either Joe Biden or any previous U. S. president did. The other thing Putin wants to avoid is having to make a commitment to end the war in Ukraine. The Ukrainians and their European backers are insisting that there should be a ceasefire announced at the summit. President Trump has listened to them. He hasn't necessarily said that that's what he wants. But Putin would like to come away from this where President Trump says, well, this is just the first stage. We're going to continue negotiating and eventually we hope to get peace. So I think if I'm Vladimir Putin, I'm gonna put on all the charm. He's a former KGB case officer. He's a former judo champion. He knows how to sense out people's weaknesses. He knows how to flatter people, and that's what he's hoping to do. David Chalian 00:03:33 Is he, in all your studying of him, is this the kind of moment that he would take — it came together rather quickly, so there hasn't been a ton of time, but, obviously, while the event itself has come together quickly, the notion of eventually sitting down with President Trump and being on this resetting of relations pathway is not coming together quickly. That's something that's obviously been on the agenda. Is this something he would prepare for earnestly, or does he take something like this, as you said, feeling confident and just going into it a bit more freewheeling? Angela Stent 00:04:05 'Oh, no. The Russians prepared very well for this. You look at the Russian delegation that's coming, the foreign minister, the national security advisor, etc., etc. These are well-seasoned people. Some of them have decades of experience dealing with Americans. Putin's been in power 25 years. Think about how many U.S. presidents have come and gone, and he's dealt with them. So they are preparing well. And I think that's a huge difference between them and the U. S. side. This came together very quickly, really. In the last week they announced it. And we don't know who's in the American delegation yet. We do know that the two leaders are going to meet one-on-one. But we also know that President Trump doesn't have that many people around him who are really experts on Russia. So I would just caution that there's a great difference between the way the two sides are coming into this. David Chalian 00:04:52 You mentioned the time that Putin has been on the world stage and his position through five U.S. presidents. What has been the evolution of Putin's relationship through all of these U.S. presidents with the U.S.? Because it seems to me that, no matter how large a thorn he has been in the side of each one of those U.S. presidents, he comes to U.S. soil, for the first time in 10 years, in a different position as a real sort of isolated figure on the world stage due to his aggression and war in Ukraine over these last three and a half years. Angela Stent 00:05:30 'Yeah, we should remember, by the way, that he's isolated from the West, but, since the war began, I mean, he has a very strong relationship with China. He's got the BRICS, you know, India, Brazil, et cetera, and much of the global South has not taken sides in this war. So, yes, he's isolted from the west, but not from the rest of the world. You know, he began with President George W. Bush, I think, quite hopeful that the US would recognize that Russia was a great power. That it deserved a sphere of influence to treat it as an equal. As one of my colleagues said a long time ago, a Russian colleague, Putin wanted from Bush an equal partnership of unequals. And this is what he's still looking for with different U.S. presidents. He supported the U.S. after the 9/11 attacks. He had high hopes that he would get that from President Bush, but it didn't work out like that, you know, for all the reasons that we could enumerate. And so with subsequent U.S. presidents, that's what he's been trying to do. And I think he's still hoping that coming away from this, you will have the two great powers, the U.S. and Russia, negotiating over the heads of Ukraine and really over the heads of the Europeans. They're not going to be in the room. And this is what he finally wants, because he's never really accepted the collapse of the Soviet Union. He said it was illegal, and he believes that Russia, rightfully, is one of the two or three greatest world powers, and that's really what he wants. He wants the recognition, and for the U.S. to say, we understand that you lost your empire, but that you still need to have influence in those post-Soviet states. David Chalian 00:07:02 And what about his relationship during the Obama years? Angela Stent 00:07:05 'I think that was a much more difficult relationship. You know, from 2004 to 2019, I would attend a meeting every year with international experts on Russia, and we would meet with Putin. And he said very favorable things about George W. Bush, even when the relationship deteriorated. He was much more wary of what he said about President Obama. And I think with President Obama, when he said that Putin reminded him of a bored schoolboy slouching at the back of the classroom, and when he called Russia a regional power, that really angered and irritated Putin, so I would say that was a very difficult relationship, and particularly when Russia was thrown out of the G8 grouping after it annexed Crimea. So there weren't too many points there where the relationship was good, but when Dmitry Medvedev held the warm seat for four years instead of Putin when he was president, his relationship with Obama appeared to me to be much better. Of course, now we see Medvedev as one of the attack dogs, but there was a period of time when the U.S.-Russian relationship appeared to be better after President Obama was elected, but once Putin was back in office, then it really deteriorated. David Chalian 00:08:13 'Yeah, that period with Medvedev, also you mentioned at the top that Trump may be looking for a reset in Russia relations. I mean, the whole mission at that time from the Obama administration was to try and reset the relationship. And yet here we are all these years later, and the U.S. is still looking for way to reset it. We're gonna delve deeper into the Trump-Putin relationship when we come back with our guest in just a moment. We were talking through the relationship with George W. Bush, with Barack Obama that Putin had. Can you dig into the Trump-Putin relationship? Because there obviously is history here. Trump himself has talked about in his first term how the whole sort of investigation into Russia's interference in the 2016 election prevented, in his mind, him having as robust a relationship as I think he was seeking to have. Where did that relationship sort of get to in Trump one and that tees up where it is now? Angela Stent 00:09:21 Well, you're quite right that the whole Russiagate issue made it very difficult for Donald Trump to do what he wanted to do, because during the campaign in 2016, he said, why can't we get along with Russia? He has been interested in Russia since he went to the Soviet Union in 1987 for the first time. He did the Miss Universe contest in Russia earlier on, so he's always had this interest in Russia. And now I think he admires strongmen. We know that, and he admires Putin. So he had hoped to improve the relationship there. Now, we do know that Russia did interfere in the 2016 election. Whatever you read in the media now about what some of the people in the Trump administration is saying, they did want Donald Trump to win, and I think for obvious reasons, because he was interested in improving ties. Then, of course, he won, but he was hampered in what he could do because of all these investigations. Sanctions were imposed on Russia, quite heavy sanctions for the interference and then for the poisoning of a former GRU military intelligence agent in England by the Russians. So this was really not what Trump wanted. They did meet a few times. The first time they met was at a G20 meeting. They met just the two of them with their interpreters. And Trump took the notes from the U.S. interpreter at the end of the meeting because he didn't want anyone to know what had happened. And he subsequently had conversations with Putin at dinner at that meeting where we don't know what happened. So this is just to say there have been private conversations between them, which we don't know very much about. But he was hampered. And then I think when COVID hit, I know he was planning in 2020 to invite Vladimir Putin to come to the United States. Maybe even to one of his properties, and that was prevented because of COVID. So he came out of his first term not having accomplished what he wanted with Russia. And therefore, during the campaign last year, the Russians were still speaking favorably about him, but they were a little bit more wary because of what had happened in the first term. Now they understand, and I think Putin understands, Trump does not have advisors around him, as he did in his first term, who were much more skeptical about Russia and that he is much freer to do what he wants than he was in the first term. David Chalian 00:11:31 I would imagine if you're Vladimir Putin, watching that Oval Office blow up with Zelensky and Trump back in February would have put an enormous smile on your face in Moscow. And yet we have seen in the last several months, Trump publicly get frustrated with Vladimir Putin. He has talked about that they have lovely conversations and then yet he continues to slaughter people in Ukraine. And it seems like the lovely conversation has had no practical movement in Putin's position. And that seems to have some frustration, at least publicly. Do you think Putin assesses that as just rhetoric for American public consumption, or if Putin is coming to this meeting with a sense that Trump is actually quite frustrated with him in this moment? Angela Stent 00:12:21 'So I think the reason why they are having this meeting is that even though Putin may discount a lot of what President Trump says, because, as you said, on the one hand he was praising Putin and criticizing Zelensky, telling him he had no cards. Then he was criticizing Putin and sort of praising Zelensky and saying they had good conversations because they signed this mineral deal. But I think Putin takes it seriously enough that he is concerned that if Trump gets too frustrated and feels that Putin is playing him, A, there will be more sanctions on Russia, and the Russian economy is struggling, I would say, at the moment, and B, that Trump might reverse himself on the issue of supplying Ukraine with all the high-tech weapons it needs. I mean, right now, he's allowing the Europeans to buy them from the U.S., and they're giving them to Ukraine. But if he got really frustrated, he could change his mind if his MAGA base would agree to it and actually sell Ukraine the weapons it needs and tell Zelensky, you know, if you want to strike into the heart of Russia with these weapons, you can. So I do think that there's some uncertainty in Putin's mind about exactly what Trump might do. And that, I think, is why they're having this summit. We have to assume that because of that, there were communications between them so that Steve Witkoff did go back to Russia having not been there for some months and then, you know, agree to have a summit. But I think still mostly the Russians look at Donald Trump, and they realize he says one thing, then he says another thing. It's apparently his way of the art of the deal, of putting people a little off balance and then hoping to get a good deal. But they can't completely discount his criticisms. David Chalian 00:14:00 I mean, as you said, you see from Putin's perspective, you would think he would already assess this as a bit of a victory that the meeting is even taking place, that it's taking place on U.S. soil, at a U.S. military base, no less. And yet, Putin does have something to lose here, right? Angela Stent 00:14:17 Well, he does. I mean, he believes that Russia is winning the war and can still win. It's true that the Russians have taken some more territory in the past few days and that the situation is getting more difficult for the Ukrainians. But still, the Russians are losing large numbers of people. Now some of the estimates is that there are a million casualties. Not everybody killed but also severely wounded. The figure on Ukraine's side is big, too. And he still thinks that if Russia continues fighting, and the Ukrainians don't get the weapons they need, and they can't mobilize the soldiers they need, that he will be able to completely take these four areas that Russia has annexed, but none of which it fully controls. So he wants to prevent the U.S. from doing any more to support Ukraine. And I think from his point of view, the best outcome of the summit would be, in fact, if President Trump would agree to the settlement that the Russians want, which is that the Ukrainians give up territory to Russia that the Russians don't control in return for a freezing of the battle lines at the moment, and then Ukraine promising it will never join NATO or possibly the European Union. It doesn't sound as if that's going to happen, but if that happened and then the Ukrainians rejected it with the support of the Europeans who are really backing Ukraine, then President Trump could blame Ukraine for what went wrong, and then he could continue with his reset with Russia. David Chalian 00:15:42 Does it mean anything significant to you that both Putin and Trump, both sides seem to have agreed that this summit will, at least as scheduled and planned, end with a joint news conference with both leaders side by side? Angela Stent 00:15:57 Yes, it does. The last time there was a U.S. summit was President Biden meeting with President Putin in June of 2021, trying to avoid, in fact, a Ukraine war. They did not hold a joint press conference. They held separate press conferences. So holding a joint press conference already implies that they're going to have enough positive things to say and agree with each other that they can do that. You know, particularly with President Trump, you know, he's a little unpredictable, right, in his press conferences. With Putin, I think he's is a little bit more predictable. But that already tells me that, you know, both sides want to present this as a success before it's even begun. David Chalian 00:16:37 Donald Trump says it'll take him just a couple of minutes to understand whether Putin is going to sort of move off the dime here as it relates to the Ukraine issue in any way. Do you believe, as a result of this, no matter what comes of it, that Trump and the United States will be able to assess whether, to use Trump's words, Putin is just tapping them along or whether or not there is the beginnings of a path to some kind of resolution of the Ukraine war? Angela Stent 00:17:03 I mean I certainly hope that that's the case, but I'm not completely sure because President Trump and the people around him don't know that much about Russian history. And Putin, apparently, and this has come out in media articles, in these phone conversations he's had with President Trump, has listed his grievances for hours long about everything that the U.S. did wrong and about what should belong to Russia rightfully and the fact that Ukraine isn't really a country. And so it really would would take President Trump to really check with his advisors once this has happened, if you like, to make sure that he understands whether Putin is sincere about trying to move to some kind of negotiation or whether this is just trying to change and bend the American position in Putin's favor. David Chalian 00:17:52 Angela Stent, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it. Angela Stent 00:17:57 Thank you. David Chalian 00:17:57 That's it for this week's edition of the CNN Political Briefing. We'll be back with a new episode next Friday. Thanks so much for listening.
a minute ago
Ukrainian soldiers focus on daily battles as Trump and Putin prepare to meet
LONDON -- The eyes of the world will turn to Alaska on Friday for the meeting between President Donald Trump and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin -- the first meeting between U.S. and Russian leaders since the start of Moscow's full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. Many analysts have framed the meeting as a coup for the Kremlin. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is not expected to attend. While Trump and Putin negotiate Kyiv's future, the Ukrainians will be absent. Trump said Wednesday that a potential second summit bringing Putin and Zelenskyy together is possible after the Alaska event. All along the 600-mile front line in southern and eastern Ukraine, it is war-weary Ukrainian troops who are deciding Putin's hand. Russian forces are still trying to grind their way forwards, the Kremlin hoping that more seized territory will give it more leverage in the torturous negotiations, analysts have said. "Of course, we all read the news -- and each of us has a different opinion about it," Col. Oleksandr Zavtonov of Ukraine's 30th Marine Corps told ABC News from the southern front, near the city of Kherson. Ceasefire speculation, he added, "remains at the level of smoke room talk. The war continues, and we see no reduction in the intensity of hostilities or any other signs that the Russian monsters are committed to a peaceful resolution of their own aggression." "We have clear orders and tasks that we must carry out," Zavtonov said. "The struggle continues." The diplomatic struggle has peaked this week, with Zelenskyy and his top officials lobbying Western partners to back Ukraine's long-held positions in eventual peace talks -- among them no territorial concessions, maintaining its ambition to join NATO, accepting no limits on its post-war military and ensuring lasting security guarantees from its foreign backers. On Thursday, Zelenskyy said his meetings with Trump and European leaders addressed "expectations from the meeting in Alaska and possible prospects." Among the topics were security guarantees "that can make peace truly sustainable if the United States still manages to pressure Russia to stop the killings and engage in real meaningful diplomacy," he said. Putin, meanwhile, praised what he said was the Trump administration's "energetic and sincere" efforts to end the conflict. Trump's frustration with Putin appeared to be building as Moscow expanded its ground and long-range strike operations in recent months. But with the two men now set to meet on Friday without Ukrainian involvement, Kyiv appears concerned that Trump will again align himself with Russian narratives and demands. Zelenskyy appears to have marshalled Trump and European leaders into backing five key Ukrainian demands. Kyiv said there can be no peace talks without a ceasefire, that Ukraine must be involved in negotiations and that Ukraine will make the decision on any territorial concessions with discussions beginning from the current front lines. Ukraine has also said it needs solid security guarantees -- with U.S. involvement -- to agree to any deal, and that more sanctions and pressure should be put on Russia if the Alaska summit is unsuccessful. Trump agreed to all key points, Zelenskyy and his European counterparts said after Wednesday's discussions. Kyiv will be hoping to win some respite for its forces all along the front, which are reporting more Russian attacks, despite continuing to inflict high casualties on Moscow's units. In Kherson, Zavtonov said there is intense fighting over the control of a handful of small islands in the Dnieper River -- the western bank of which is held by the Ukrainians and the eastern bank by the Russians. Ukrainian forces defeat dozens of Russian efforts to land on the islands of the river's western bank each week, Zavtonov said. "We have sufficient forces and resources to counter the aggressor in our defense zone," he explained, though declined to speak in detail about manpower and supply availability there, citing security concerns. In the city of Kherson, which sits along the river-turned-front line, the civilian population is also under fire. Russian drones, artillery, rockets and airstrikes are near-constant in the city. Locals who have not fled are forced to live in what they have termed a "human safari," dodging Russian strikes that at times appear to intentionally target civilians, local Ukrainian officials have said. "These are brutal, inhumane actions that have nothing to do with internationally accepted rules of warfare," Zavtonov said. "They are aimed solely at terrorizing us and breaking our will to fight." "Thanks to electronic warfare systems, most drones seem to be neutralized, but unfortunately, a few drones manage to break through, causing deaths and injuries among the civilian population," he added. At the country's northeastern border, Maj. Oleh Shyriaiev -- the commander of the 225th Separate Assault Regiment fighting in Sumy -- said he and his comrades remain "confident that the United States will continue to offer assistance along with European countries," despite fears over the outcome of Friday's talks. The 225th has in recent weeks been lauded by Zelenskyy for its work in reversing Russian gains in Sumy. The president visited the unit's positions last week to hand out awards and receive a situational briefing from Shyriaiev and others. Shyriaiev said U.S. material support remains vital more than three-and-a-half years into Russia's full-scale invasion. "We continue to rely on this support for additional air defense systems along with U.S. weapons like HIMARS missiles, Javelin anti-tank weapons, Claymore mines, grenades and 5.56mm-caliber American assault rifles," he said.
CNBC
a minute ago
- CNBC
Five things that could change after Trump and Putin's high-stake talks
When Russian President Vladimir Putin travels to meet U.S. President Donald Trump in Alaska on Friday for talks on ending the war in Ukraine, it'll be one of the most high profile summits of the year, and there's a lot at stake. Veteran statesman Putin is likely to be aiming to extract as many concessions and benefits for Russia as he can in return for a ceasefire that's coveted by Trump. Close followers of Moscow say Russia is not looking to end the war yet, however, given its advantageous position on the battlefield in Ukraine, where its forces occupy swathes of territory in the south and east. Trump has played down expectations for the summit, describing them as a listening exercise ahead of potential further talks. Yet he has also threatened "very severe consequences" if Putin doesn't agree to a ceasefire. It's a warning Trump has proposed before, and yet has resisted pulling the trigger on further sanctions. Ukraine and its European allies, not invited to the summit, warned Trump this week that Putin is bluffing about wanting peace. Kyiv has even said Russia is preparing for new offensives although Moscow has not commented on that claim. The talks could nonetheless be a watershed moment for stakeholders in the Ukraine war which has been raging for three and a half years, as well as a catalyst for geopolitical changes. CNBC takes a look at five major factors at stake in Friday's talks: Trump's central aim on Friday is to press Putin into a ceasefire but what form this might take, what promises could be made and what "red lines" might have to be crossed — particularly territorial concessions and security guarantees — to reach a deal will be key. "Ending the Russia-Ukraine war remains one of President Trump's signature foreign policy goals, and Friday's Anchorage talks with Putin have raised expectations of a major diplomatic breakthrough," Helima Croft, head of Global Commodity Strategy and MENA Research at RBC Capital Markets, said Wednesday. "The purported deal discussion points are broadly similar to what has been previously floated; In return for halting its military offensive, Russia is apparently seeking to retain Crimea and the entire eastern Donbas region of Ukraine as well as secure a definitive end to Kyiv's NATO ambitions" she said, in emailed comments. Ukraine and Europe have vehemently pushed back against the "maximalist" territorial concessions that Russia could seek in return for acquiescing to a ceasefire deal. Trump has sewn confusion and concern by vacillating over the thorny issue in the last week, talking about potential "land swapping" by Ukraine while also pledging to get as much territory back for it as possible. Ukraine and European leaders on Wednesday urged Trump not to agree to any demands from Putin regarding peace for land, following an emergency virtual summit. For his part, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Ukraine's territorial integrity is enshrined in its constitution. Any changes to this would have to be approved by a referendum, which would have to be authorized by the Ukrainian parliament, making the process a potentially fraught one. There is another option: that Ukraine accepts de facto Russian control of the four regions it broadly occupies, rather than a de jure (legal and official) recognition. But again, how a "just and lasting" peace could then be maintained in Ukraine, and who would police it, would likely be a bone of contention. The fate of Ukraine's territorial integrity doesn't just affect Ukraine but the rest of Europe, regional leaders say. They argue that giving Putin a slice of its neighbor's territory effectively redraws the borders of Europe. Ukraine aspires to membership of the European Union (as sell as NATO, although this is seen as an ambition too far) and both Kyiv and the EU argue that if Russia is given a slice of Ukrainian territory, he will regroup his forces and use the territory as a launchpad for a future wholesale invasion of Ukraine. That could mean Europe has war at its border. EU leaders want to be involved in any ceasefire deal and have offered to oversee keeping the peace. Russia has rejected that idea, and euroskeptic Trump might not have the region's concerns in the forefront of his mind come Friday. "What the Europeans are trying to frame as non-negotiable preconditions for a deal with Russia (a ceasefire, a monitoring mission, "ironclad" security guarantees) might catch up with them after the U.S.-Russia summit," Carsten Nickel, deputy director of Research at Teneo, said in a note Wednesday. "Regardless of the outcome, Trump could dare the Europeans to deliver much more of the required military capabilities and financing afterward. This would create difficult trade-offs in transatlantic relations," he said. Although Putin appears to be entering the talks from a position of strength rather than weakness, he could arguably look for an off-ramp from the war that has damaged Russia's economy, which is seeing slowing growth, labor shortages and rampant inflation which even Putin described as "alarming." ″[Putin] starts from a relatively strong position on the battlefield. They're advancing," Richard Portes, head of the economics faculty at the London Business School, told CNBC. "On the other hand, from the economic point of view, he starts from a weak position. The Russian economy is not in very good shape. They're running a significant fiscal deficit, partly because oil revenues are down very substantially, oil and gas [are down] because of the oil price. And ... this is a weak economy," Portes told CNBC's "Europe Early Edition" on Monday. After three and a half years of war, there's certainly a desire that the fighting in Ukraine comes to an end. Hundreds of thousands of lives have been lost, according to estimates, while millions of Ukrainians have been displaced. The global economy and supply chains have also been upended and redrawn as a result of the conflict. Russia, meanwhile, has reasonably effectively circumvented international sanctions and has buyers of its oil that funds its war machine, with the likes of China and India refusing to isolate their ally. As such, one of the key questions Friday will be, is Putin willing to play ball when it comes to ending the war, and to what extent does he need to? "From Putin's point of view, the task is quite prosaic: to simply sit and wait for the desired result. Putin sees himself as a 'long power' and historical figure, in contrast with the 'short power' of Western fleeting political figures," Alexander Baunov, senior fellow at the Carnegie Russia Eurasia Center, commented Thursday. Putin's position on the eve of the meeting looks more advantageous, Baunov concluded: "By conceding to hold a one-on-one meeting with Putin before any ceasefire, Trump is taking a bigger risk than Putin," he said. "In diplomacy, the aggressor has nothing to lose. By offering to lower the temperature without having suffered a military defeat, that same aggressor begins to look like a peacemaker."
