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Are Red Light Masks Worth It?
RORY: It's almost like such a signifier. It's like the prop like if you want to convey something about this person, oh, put a red light mask on her because it means that she's... CAIRA: It's a status symbol. It's like an immediate flag like she got money. RORY: She got money. And she's also- ROSIE: Oh, she's got mask money. CHRISTINE: I'm Christine Cyr Clisset. CAIRA: I'm Caira Blackwell. ROSIE: I'm Rosie Guerin. And you're listening to The Wirecutter Show . CAIRA: This episode is called, Are Red Light Masks Worth It? ROSIE: Hello, my dear pod friends. CHRISTINE: Hello. ROSIE: I wanna talk about this thing I was reminded about this weekend. I was watching that Netflix show, Sirens. It's a new one with Julianne Moore. And she plays this eccentric billionaire. And there's a scene where she is lounging in a very fancy robe and drinking champagne. And she is wearing one of those red light masks. CHRISTINE: Oh yeah. ROSIE: Have you seen these devices? CHRISTINE: Oh yeah, I've seen them everywhere. CHRISTINE: Everywhere. I mean, I have been thinking about buying one for years. ROSIE: I haven't pulled- CAIRA: I've only been seeing them on my timelines for the past like few months. CHRISTINE: Oh you youngins you youngin ROSIE: What I'm hearing is this is not a silly trend that this is a thing that's been in the zeitgeist. This has been around a long time. CHRISTINE: They're supposed to, you know, make you look younger, essentially, like, boost collagen, reduce the look of wrinkles, like... CAIRA: Oh, so it doesn't just make you like an android with red light in your own home? CHRISTINE: Well, there's that too. We just came out with a review of them, which I am so excited about. And I have been waiting, because I've been wanting to get a recommendation. Because I want to have that Android look at home. CAIRA: So I think at the end of this episode, you're going to know which one you're getting. CHRISTINE: Hopefully, yes. Yeah, I think a lot of people who are maybe considering buying one of these, it's not a cheap purchase. There are devices you can get that are like wands that are under $200, which that's still some money. But the actual masks, those are like, 500, some of them can be like 2000. ROSIE: But the question is, okay, you're going to pay $500. Does this thing actually work? CHRISTINE: Well, I think we should find out. I think should get to the bottom of this. ROSIE: We're gonna phone a friend. CAIRA: That's why it's always so cool to work at Wirecutter because we can always phone a friend here So we're gonna talk to Rory Evans today Wirecutter skincare supervising editor who's covered everything from facial cleansers to the best Korean skincare products. CHRISTINE: That's right. So when we're back from the break, we are going to talk with Rory about these LED red light devices. Do they work? Are they worth your money? Will you look 15, 20, 30, 40 years younger if you start using them? ROSIE: Or are you just going to... look like the movie poster for Eyes Wide Shut. CHRISTINE: I mean, for those who don't know that reference,. ROSIE: Who doesn't get that reference?! CAIRA: I had to Google it as you know. ROSIE: Lord in heaven. Alright, we'll be right back. CAIRA: Welcome back. With us now is Rory Evans, who is Wirecutter's Skincare Supervising Editor who's been covering this area for over 20 years. She also previously worked at Allure, Real Simple and Martha Stewart before this. CHRISTINE: Welcome to the show, Rory. RORY: Thanks for having me. CHRISTINE: Today we are going to do a deep dive into LED lights. Some people call these red lights. They're often like these masks or wands that shoot red light at your skin, and I've long wondered whether these things work. So can you explain to us what are these supposed to do? RORY: The light penetrates into different layers of your skin and it boosts the production of collagen and elastin so it's going to make your skin look firmer and it's going to make your wrinkles look less visible. Fine lines are going to look less visible so that is what's happening. ROSIE: So when did this red light therapy for skin come about and what's the backstory? RORY: The backstory is that it was developed by NASA and like any good invention, it was discovered by accident because they were using LEDs, light emitting diodes, to grow plants. And the scientist who was doing the experiment found that lesions on his skin were less pronounced, looked better, so then it made this shift into healing and skin care. CHRISTINE: But they haven't really taken off as a skin care facial treatment until the last decade, right? RORY: Yeah. The treatments are used in dermatologist offices and then there are this home care. And the ones in derm offices are stronger, you use them longer, you might use them for different skin challenges. The derms that I talked to for this guide, almost all of them use them in their offices and have been using them for decades. CHRISTINE: And do they look like vampires like they're so young? RORY: There's one woman who is, she's not like a vampire because, so she looks amazing and I made that point at the end and she was like, "Anything with skin care, it's my genes. It's how much I stayed out of the sun. I knew to stay out of the sun. It's using sunscreen when you're in..." All the things. ROSIE: It's not a secret concoction like the Substance or something. RORY: Yes, exactly. ROSIE: So let's back up for a second because I know nothing about these devices at all. I've seen them, but I want you to hold my hand and walk me through how I would use one if I was gifted one of these. RORY: Okay. ROSIE: Hint, Caira. RORY: Well, it would depend. If you get a wand, you're literally going to move it around your face the way you would, I want to say it's like the way you would shave, just keep moving it around your face. Or using an electric toothbrush, you just wait for the two minute timer, move it to a different quadrant but you would do it for 12 minutes, which is an eternity. CHRISTINE: Yeah, I can barely brush my teeth for two minutes. RORY: Same. Same. It is like the time melts. The clock is waxed, but it takes forever. Or you take a mask and you put it on your face. ROSIE: And you just sit there. RORY: You just sit there. ROSIE: And press a button and then the session just goes? RORY: You press a button and yeah, and it goes and then it turns off in 10 minutes. And Dr. Glynis Ablon, who is one of the doctors that I interviewed for this, she's like, "People think that in order for it to work it has to hurt and this does not hurt at all." Especially with light, with laser, you think there's going to be something that's burning and blasted off your face. It doesn't hurt. CAIRA: It shouldn't hurt, right? RORY: No. Yeah, it shouldn't hurt. And it can feel warm. It shouldn't feel hot. CHRISTINE: Yeah. I've had a professional level one of these used on my face and we wore goggles because the light is so bright. So with these at-home devices, are you supposed to wear goggles? RORY: Yes. And some of the masks have little protective, almost silicone shields around the eyes. A few of them come with the little goggles that you would wear in a tanning coffin. ROSIE: A tanning coffin. CAIRA: I don't like that. CHRISTINE: Vampire, coffins. ROSIE: If they were called tanning coffins when I was in high school, I feel like a lot fewer people would've gone in them. RORY: But still, even I wore those with some masks and I could still just see a wall of red. CAIRA: Oh wow. RORY: So it's intense. CAIRA: But what are you supposed to do when you have these masks on? I've seen some of them literally look like the Phantom of the Opera masks where they have the eye holes so maybe you could watch TV, but it sounds like you're not supposed to keep your eyes open. RORY: People say that. They're like, "I just walk around my house and do my laundry and whatever." That was not my experience. I would recommend, the other thing is it's 10 minutes, just sit down, relax. ROSIE: It's therapeutic. You're supposed to be taking a minute of self-care. RORY: Listen to a podcast. ROSIE: Preferably this one. RORY: Yeah, exactly. I would just recommend not having your eyes open. There were a few, I could very comfortably leave my eyes open, but most of them are really, I don't know, it's intense. It was intense. CAIRA: These sound a little bit too good to be true as most things with skincare that you can do at home. Did a lot of your testers think that these masks work? RORY: That was definitely the case. Our testers were like, I feel better, or I feel like my skin looks less wrinkly, or I feel like my nasolabial folds are less pronounced, or the lines around my mouth, those parentheses that you get around your mouth and crow's feet, they felt like it looked better. Was it the only thing they were doing for their skin at the time? No. That's the challenge of the way we have to test, but they did like it. And the other thing is that I think a lot of people felt like they had nothing to lose and only something to gain. ROSIE: What is a nasolabial fold? RORY: It's the lines between your nose and your lips. CHRISTINE: What separates your cheek area from your lip area? RORY: Small lines. CHRISTINE: Yeah. RORY: Yeah, exactly. CAIRA: How long did you have to use them or did most people on your testing panel have to use them before they saw a difference? RORY: Some people were like for a month and were feeling like it was better. CAIRA: Wow. ROSIE: Every day? Once a week? RORY: As instructed. And I want to say that some of them were like 10 minutes, 5 times a week, every other night, 3 times a week. It really depended on the instructions. ROSIE: So were you taking before and after head shots of everybody testing for efficacy? RORY: No, it was self-reported improvement and enjoyment too. ROSIE: What was the main criteria would you say, in terms of judging? RORY: Did you look less crinkly, wrinkly? Did you look firmer and fresher? And I mean some of it was just user experience too. Some masks had, all the controls were on the masks, so you would be pushing buttons to change modes and change the color of the lights and impossible to tell while it's on, which one you're on. And it's almost like when a door has three locks and you're like, wait, I did that one, that one, and you can't figure out which one you're actually in. Some had wand like remote control wands that were also a little bit tricky. Some were great, some were really uncomfortable to wear. Some were very comfortable to wear. Some were you had to wear eye goggles with it, but wearing the thing with eye goggles and then operating it, was literally groping in the dark if the dark were a wall of the brightest red you've ever seen in your life. CHRISTINE: Why do this to yourself? RORY: It was that too. Just like is this something that I want to use for 10 minutes every night or 5 nights a week or every other night, or however often it's recommended to be used? And the price too. CHRISTINE: LED lights, do they have any negative impacts on your skin? Is there any UV light that's actually penetrating your skin so that it could be damaging in the way that sunlight would be? RORY: No, because UV is at the other end of the spectrum. CHRISTINE: Okay. RORY: So it's ultraviolet and infrared, where in the red, not in the violet end of the spectrum. There are also lots of considerations and contraindications for using it, like lupus. If drugs that cause light sensitivity, if you have light sensitivity and you get migraines, if you have darker skin, it's also, it's one of those things that you want to talk to your dermatologist or your doctor before you try it. And if you try it, spot test it before you go all in on your face because it may cause hyperpigmentation. It may cause a reaction. In some ways it's like any skincare thing. CHRISTINE: So probably a good idea, especially if you have melanated skin, you should be talking to your dermatologist before using one of these devices? RORY: Yeah. Yeah. CHRISTINE: And then if you have something like lupus or you have something where you know you might be impacted by light, you should also be talking to your doctor. RORY: Yeah, I would say talk to your doctor anyhow, just to be on the safe side. I said to my dermatologist, I was like, and she was like, "Oh, I love red light devices." So I was like, okay, that's my go ahead. And she was taking into account my, what's going on with my skin or whatever? So as your dermatologist or doctor would do for you. ROSIE: Are there places you can try these devices out or is it like the bed in a box where you can sleep on it and then- RORY: Well that was one thing that we considered for the guide was that we wanted to make sure that they have solid return policies and good warranties because you try it and you're like, oh, I'm down $350 bucks and this thing doesn't feel good, doesn't fit well. ROSIE: It doesn't work for my skin for whatever reason. RORY: Exactly. So that was a piece of our consideration. ROSIE: So we're talking about devices, these are things that you can line your couch and use at home. What are the considerations and why would someone opt in to a device rather than going for treatment at a dermatologist's office? RORY: Some of it is affordability and some of it I think is also like any piece of skin care is the maintenance in between. So you're going to see a dermatologist for expensive treatment and then you're going to do self-care in between. ROSIE: Did you cap your search in terms of price? RORY: We did. We put a cap on it. We put it at $600 and that was not an easy one to set because it still felt high. None of our picks, I want to say our top pick is just under $400 bucks. ROSIE: They're also, I mean this is speculative, but they're in the zeitgeist more than they've ever been, I think. RORY: Yes. It's almost like such a it's like if you want to convey something about this person, oh, put a red light mask on her because it means that she's... CAIRA: It's a status symbol. It's like an immediate flag like she got money. RORY: She got money. And she's also- ROSIE: Oh, she's got mask money. CHRISTINE: So I have looked at a lot of these. They're all over the place. There's ones on Amazon. Goop has a quite robust page. It's a very, very wide range in prices. Could you just give us what is the cheat sheet of what someone should look for in a red light device? Because I have no idea. Just looking at the prices, it just seems like it's all over the map and I wouldn't really know where to begin. What were you looking for and what's the just simplest list of things to look for? RORY: We were looking for, one, if it was just a straight blue light device, we cut it out of consideration because blue light is used to treat acne. So many of the derms that I talked to were like, there are so many options for treating acne, blue light shouldn't be the only thing. And then we were looking at red light devices that had, bear with me, I'm going to talk about nanometers. I'm going to talk about wavelength. So we looked for ones that had red light in the range of 630 to 650 nanometer for red light. CHRISTINE: And can I just ask, nanometer is a measurement of wavelength, is that what that is? RORY: Yes. CHRISTINE: Okay. RORY: And those numbers, they indicate the color of a light. CAIRA: And that means how deeply they will penetrate the skin? RORY: Yes, exactly. CAIRA: Okay. RORY: And so red light in the 630 to 650 nanometer range, and then the near infrared, that was in the 830 plus range. And then we also looked at irradiance, which is the power over an area, and that's measured in megawatts over square centimeters. It's recommended by the dermatologist that I interviewed … soft masks had at least 30 megawatts over centimeters squared, hard masks had at least 50, and wands were at least 49.5. And also you want to make sure that it's FDA cleared and we made sure that the ones that we have are FDA cleared. CAIRA: But they shouldn't say FDA approved, right? RORY: If it says FDA approved, they're telling tales because the FDA does not approve these devices. They will clear a device, which is to say that the company has done their due diligence and submitted paperwork to say that you cleared a device that's a lot like this and then they get clearance as well. You might not be able to find that information on- CAIRA: The Amazon page. RORY: ... On the Amazon page. You might need to go to the brand page. CAIRA: To the brand page and look it up. ROSIE: So I'm recapping here. The consensus here is that these work. No two people are created equally, so it's hard to say that it will 100% work on you. You got to check with your dermatologist before you jump into this purchase. These aren't cheap. The mask is going to be a more passive experience in terms of sitting back, putting the thing on your face, running a session and repeat. Whereas the wand is going to be a little bit more active, like using an electric toothbrush, you got to run this thing over your face for 12 minutes. That feels like an eternity. RORY: Yes. ROSIE: That's a direct quote from you. And also if you're shopping for these online, you're going to want to look for red light in the 630 to 650 nanometer range and you're going to look for near infrared light in the 800 plus nanometer range. RORY: Yes. CAIRA: Okay. We're going to take a quick break and then when we come back, we're going to get into all the details of the three LED devices that Rory recommends. Be right back. CHRISTINE: Welcome back. Now that we have discussed all of the things that LED lights can do for your skin, Rory, I want to get into the actual picks that you made because you tested a lot of these devices and you recommend three in our guide. You recommend one wand and two masks, right? So can we start out with the wand first? What did you pick and why do you like it? RORY: We chose LightStim for Wrinkles and it costs $200. And at first- ROSIE: It's called LightStim for Wrinkles? RORY: Yeah. That really stopped me. CAIRA: What's it for? It's for wrinkles. CHRISTINE: Surely that marketing group could have come up with a better name. RORY: Well, there are other in the line of LightStim. There are others like LightStim for Acne, LightStim for whatever. We chose LightStim for Wrinkles because it met our criteria for the red light. At first, I will admit, I wasn't underwhelmed, I was like, oh my god, this is it? It seemed dumb simple. You plug it in, you hit a single switch and it turns on and then after three minutes, it shakes a little bit, lets you know to move to a different spot on your face. It was like without bells and whistles and so many of these options have bells and whistles. And then I was like, but wait a minute, where it matters, which is to say the number of LEDs that it has packed on the face of it, is legit. It's 72 LEDs. And that is more than any of the wands that we tested. They were also more densely packed. Those lights were more densely packed than the masks that we tested. CHRISTINE: I think a lot of people, I know when I think of a wand, I think of the Solawave, which is very, very popular and it looks like a little shaver, but this one is actually bigger. ROSIE: It looks like a shower head. RORY: Yes, it does. CHRISTINE: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Or a big flashlight or something. So it's got a lot of little LED bulbs in this big round surface. RORY: Yes. And the round surface is maybe a little bit more than two, two and a half inches across and it's got 72 LEDs packed in there. You press it against your face and for a wand it was not as, it didn't require the constant motion. You could just press it against your face, lean against it. I would sometimes do it in meetings because- ROSIE: For research. RORY: ... it's my job. It wasn't as arduous as the Solawave. CAIRA: Why do you guys keep referencing the Solawave? What is that? CHRISTINE: We should explain what the Solawave is. It's not a pick, but I've seen it for years recommended on Instagram and influencers using it on their posts online and stuff. RORY: The Solawave wand is also affordable. It's also one of those things that's always on sale, but we just thought it was too much work. It has 14 LEDs, whereas the LightStim you're looking at it and you're like, I know what I'm getting here. I'm getting a lot of LEDs and the Solawave, it's not as much. It's in the skinnier line. You just have to move it around your face all the time. Whereas I could lean against my LightStim and feeling like I was getting a lot of coverage on my face and being certain of where it was covering on my face. ROSIE: And it's a wand, so you can use it on other parts of your body as well. RORY: And you can use it on your chest. It was enjoyable. It was so straightforward. We liked that. CHRISTINE: So if someone is debating between a mask and a wand, is it just purely like do you prefer to sit with a mask on your face or do you want the ability to use a wand on your face or maybe somewhere else on your body? How do you make that choice? RORY: The wands are more affordable. I always think about, and because I've done this so many times where you buy the thing that feels like the bargain and then you're like only compromise and you hate using it and then you're going to get the real thing anyhow. So it's like if you're going to spend $200 on a wand, just spend $350 on the mask. That's my thinking. ROSIE: Well we spoke about this when you came on talking about facial moisturizers, this idea that the most effective one is the one you're going to actually use. RORY: Yeah. CAIRA: But there is an argument to get a wand if you really think that you want to target other areas that are not your face. RORY: Yes. CAIRA: Because it's very flexible and you can move it around anywhere, whereas most masks are very rigid and you can pretty much only use them on your face, right? RORY: No, because we had flexible masks and rigid masks and then the wands. And the flexible masks you could use elsewhere on your body. CAIRA: Is it as easy as a wand? RORY: Yes. I mean, especially if you're using, if you're doing your upper chest, just lay the thing down on your chest. I have a fresh surgical scar on my arm and I did use, I tested all of these products on my arm with the exception of the rigid masks because they don't fit my elbow. The wands on my elbow were definitely easier to apply, but the mask also was set it and forget it. I would just wrap it and leave it. And I do think that, I can't say which one and I can't say what because it wasn't the only thing I was doing for healing, but my scar is pretty impressively invisible now. ROSIE: That sounds like it's great if you want a device that's easy to use for different parts of your body, you don't mind a little manual labor rolling that thing around. Although you said the head of it is the size of a tennis ball, so that's pretty good coverage. RORY: Yeah, I know. And that's why it felt like you could cover your face. How many tennis balls is my face? ROSIE: Right. I'm constantly asking myself that. RORY: I know. ROSIE: But what if you just want to put something on and zone out for 10 minutes? RORY: We recommended two masks. One is a hard mask and one is a soft mask. And so we recommend the Shark CryoGlow and the Omnilux Men. CAIRA: But why is it called Omnilux for men? What is that? RORY: Oh, I know. The entire time I was working on it, I was thinking about the old Secret ad where it's strong enough for a man, but made for a woman. But it's the other way around. So essentially, it's gray. It's not pink. It literally is gray. It's not pink. CAIRA: For the men. RORY: And it says men on it. It's a little bit crazy. But derms that I talked to mentioned that male skin, men's skin tends to be thicker than women's skin, maybe by like 25%. This mask has a 1072 nanometers That's the wavelength that is going to penetrate a little bit deeper. CAIRA: Okay, so it's just like the strongest option? RORY: Yes. The deepest reaching penetration. CAIRA: Okay. RORY: Exactly. It says it's for men, but we tested another mask that we also really liked. We gave it a worth considering denotation. And that also has 1072. That doesn't mention men anywhere. ROSIE: What's that one called? RORY: That's the CurrentBody. CAIRA: Why would you choose, like I hear one's rigid and one is flexible. It sounds like from everything that we've talked about, what is the case for a rigid mask? But just in general, why would you pick between the two? RORY: Specifically for the CryoGlow, it was so pleasant to use. Literally, everyone who tested it was like, when's my turn with that one again? CAIRA: And this is the rigid mask? RORY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know when you try a product and you feel like we all do this at Wirecutter's, like, oh, someone thought this through. Someone thought through. CAIRA: Yeah, good design. RORY: And comfortable, easy to use. It's like they were reading my mail about everything that I didn't like about the other ones and were fixing it before I tried it. CAIRA: Nice. RORY: So I feel like that's the case for the hard mask. CHRISTINE: If somebody was trying to decide, say between one of the soft silicone masks versus the hard masks, is there a decision tree about why you'd want to choose one or the other? RORY: It's a little bit, how are you really going to use it? One of the reasons why we liked the soft masks, a selling point is if you want to lay it on your chest, if you want to hold it sideways and get your neck a little bit and use it as a flexible panel. And the hard mask was, I think it was probably more like if you didn't need that or also if you just wanted to have a very enjoyable, I think in some ways the hard mask, especially our pick, really feels like a self-care moment. CHRISTINE: And it's not that expensive, right? Out of the range, how much does the Cryo Glow cost? RORY: It is $350 bucks. CHRISTINE: Okay. Which is still not nothing. RORY: It's not nothing. CHRISTINE: But when you compare it to a lot of the things you could buy, it's a lot cheaper. So if you're someone listening to this podcast and you're like, I actually think this rigid mask sounds great, but I want to get my neck and my chest. I've seen some of these masks, at least online, I've seen that there are add-ons. You can buy a neck add-on or you can buy it- CAIRA: No, there aren't. CHRISTINE: Yes you can. CAIRA: Oh my God. CHRISTINE: Of course you can. CAIRA: Not mods. CHRISTINE: So do any of these come with add-ons that you could do with your neck? What would you say to someone who is like, I want the most comfortable face mask, but I also want to cover my chest and my neck? RORY: I would say do not get the add-ons. One of the face masks that we tried, Dr. Dennis Gross, they sell like a chest plate. It's so specific and again, you can get the flexible mask and just put it on your chest. CHRISTINE: Just put it on. Okay. So you'd say maybe just get the flexible mask at that point? RORY: Yeah. ROSIE: Okay. Rory, after all this testing, are you going to continue to do this red light therapy at home now that you're done writing the guide? RORY: Yes, and I have definitely... I mean, I keep the LightStim literally at my desk. That is very easy for me to use and it doesn't hurt my eyes. CAIRA: Okay, Rory, so before we wrap, we usually ask our guests one final question, but I'm actually going to flip the script on you today because you've already been here. What is the beauty trend that you hope dies very soon? RORY: I mean, how long do we have? CAIRA: Pick one. RORY: Beef tallow. I would say- CHRISTINE: Are people using beef tallow on their skin? CAIRA: Oh yes, they are. They're claiming that it clears everything. RORY: Yeah, it just seems like, have you been to Target? Have you been to the local drugs or have you been to CVS and there's no option better for your skin than beef tallow? CHRISTINE: Than beef tallow? RORY: Yeah. CHRISTINE: I mean maybe if we're all going back to the land and the apocalypse happens, that's the choice. But yeah, it seems like there are better options. ROSIE: Raise your own cows, make your own beef tallow. All right, Rory, appreciate you. Thanks for coming back on. RORY: Thanks for having me. ROSIE: It's so nice to have Rory on the show. CHRISTINE: So great. ROSIE: She's a delight and such a wealth of knowledge on all things skincare. I'm taking away from this episode, besides sort of some general knowledge about what light therapy is, that there are a variety of types of light therapy. What we're talking about specifically with the wands and the masks, the testers found to be effective is this LED red light therapy, and so I guess what I'm talking away is that the wand is going to be sort of on the lower end of the price range. But it's gonna be a more manual experience where you're really kind of bringing this thing on your face and doing this sort of electric toothbrush type manual labor for what can feel like an eternity, but actually maybe only like 12 minutes. And then the masks are the more kind of sit back, maybe sip, you know, a green juice while you let the light blast over your face and then you'll look 15 again. CAIRA: A sip of green juice with your eyes closed. ROSIE: Right, that is my takeaway. CHRISTINE: I think you need to wear some goggles. I think that you really need to wear some googles. ROSIE: But I'm really intrigued. I mean, I think the takeaway is I'm very intrigued. CHRISTINE: Very intrigued. You both know I was already intrigued, and so now I feel like I've honed in. I want a mask. I want probably the Omnilex Men. I like the idea of having the flexible mask that I can use on different parts of my body, but I will be going to my dermatologist first because I do have some sun damage and I want to make sure that the mask doesn't cause like dark spots to get dark. Or light spots to get lighter. CAIRA: Yeah, I think similarly, I tend, I mean, I have darker skin. I tend to have hyperpigmentation really easily and all that good stuff. Yeah, me too. I just feel like I'm gonna skip this all together and I might just go to my dermatologist when I feel like I need it to get the professional red light therapy treatment. CHRISTINE: And you know, I mean, I think that's like very valid for a lot of people. ROSIE: It makes a lot of sense, and honestly I think maybe the overall takeaway is that whoever is going to pursue purchasing one of these, you probably should get some consult. CHRISTINE: Yeah, from someone you trust, besides us, you know,. CAIRA: We're not your doctor. ROSIE: Besides Dr. Christine and Dr. Caira. Alright well if you want to find out more about wire cutters coverage in general or these red light devices, if you wanna check out any of Rory's reporting, go to our website or you can find a link in the show notes. That's it. On behalf of my dear friends, Caira and Christine, thanks so much for listening. The Wirecutter Show is executive produced by Rosie Guerin and produced by Abigail Keel, engineering support from Maddy Masiello and Nick Pitman. Today's episode was mixed by Catherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Elisheba Ittoop, and Diane Wong. Wirecutter's deputy publisher is Cliff Levy. Ben Frumin is Wirecutter's editor-in-chief. I'm Christine Cyr Clisset. CHRISTINE: I think I want the flexible one. Then my man can use it as well without being embarrassed. ROSIE: My man!
New York Times
14-05-2025
- Lifestyle
- New York Times
The Wirecutter Show Episode 40: Sunscreen Demystified!
NANCY: Fun fact, the Banana Boat face sunscreen and the Banana Boat body sunscreen is the exact same sunscreen, right, Caira? CAIRA: Mm-hmm. But they will charge you extra. If you don't look at the label and you buy the face sunscreen, they will charge you extra for that, so look at it. CHRISTINE: That's a hot tip. I'm Christine Cyr Clisset. CAIRA: I'm Caira Blackwell. ROSIE: I'm Rosie Guerin, and you're listening to The Wirecutter Show . CHRISTINE: This episode is called: Sunscreen Demystified! ROSIE: Hello, hello. CHRISTINE: Hi. CAIRA: Good morning. ROSIE: Today's topic, sunscreen. CHRISTINE: Oh, my gosh. CAIRA: My favorite subject. CHRISTINE: It is truly a wonderful topic. I love sunscreen. ROSIE: I have been patting myself on the back for the last couple of years, because I've really upped my sunscreen, my facial sunscreen game. CHRISTINE: Yeah. ROSIE: But also my body sunscreen. CAIRA: That's amazing. CHRISTINE: Are you wearing it every day? CAIRA: Mm-hmm. CHRISTINE: Like, multiple times a day? ROSIE: This is private. I am reapplying it on my face. I'm wearing it every day. It's really important. I'm trying to keep this youthful glow. CHRISTINE: I mean, you're doing a great job. What kind of sunscreen do you like to wear? ROSIE: I actually wear the facial sunscreen from Trader Joe's that Caira recommended to me, and I love it. CAIRA: I love that one. CHRISTINE: That's right, because Caira, you are our resident facial sunscreen expert. CAIRA: I am. CHRISTINE: You've written Wirecutter's Guide to Facial Sunscreens. You know quite a bit. I'm partial to Korean sunscreens. CAIRA: The best. CHRISTINE: I love them. They tend to be lighter. They're very effective. I'm a little obsessed with them. CAIRA: No, I love the Korean sunscreens, but it's just that they're more expensive and harder to get. CHRISTINE: Yeah. CAIRA: Unfortunately. CHRISTINE: Yeah, you sometimes have to order them from Korea. CAIRA: Yeah, but you guys, we're not the norm in terms of how much sunscreen we're wearing and how often we're wearing it. Lots of people right now are probably thinking, "Oh, it's getting warmer outside, so I need to start wearing sunscreen again," which is not what's supposed to happen. You're supposed to wear it all year round, rain or shine. There was a national survey done in 2023 that found that of those who participated, only 13.5% actually wear sunscreen on a daily basis. CHRISTINE: I want to know who these people that participated were. Were they living under a rock or something like that? CAIRA: Maybe in the really rainy climate. But yeah, sunscreen is for all day every day. CHRISTINE: We've done a lot of sunscreen testing here at Wirecutter. We've tested all types of sunscreen. We are going to have Nancy Redd, who is one of our senior health writers, and she has tested a ton of body sunscreens, and so she's going to come on and talk with us about how you should be applying sunscreen, what you should be looking for in your sunscreens, de-mystifying all the terms you see on the bottles, and even some of the terms you don't see on the bottles, and you just kind of have to know, and we're going to really get into it with her. CAIRA: That's right. So we're going to take a quick break and then when we're back, we're going to speak with Nancy about all of the complicated things about sunscreen that may have been stumping you. Be right back. Welcome back. With us now is Nancy Redd, who's a senior staff writer on our health team, who covers everything from sunscreens to electric toothbrushes and blood pressure monitors. She's also a New York Times bestselling health author and recently published her latest book, the Real Body Manual, Your Visual Guide to Health and Wellness. And she's been covering sunscreens at Wirecutter for over five years. CHRISTINE: Nancy, welcome to the show. NANCY: Thanks for having me. I love sunscreen. CAIRA: I do too, Nancy. That's why I am so happy to have you here. And it probably won't be surprising to some people that we're doing a sunscreen episode as we approach summer, but I think that something that people may not know is that sunscreen should be worn year round, rain or shine. And I know that I fight to get my brothers, my parents to wear sunscreen at any time. So Nancy, who exactly is sunscreen for? NANCY: Well, if you're breathing, if you're over six months old, then you need sunscreen. Basically, everyone all year round should slather themselves with the stuff. CAIRA: So when you say slather, do you wear it kind of like a lotion or is it something that you only put on your face? NANCY: It's a all over thing, right? Any part of your body that is remotely exposed to the sun, whether it is your toes or your forehead, then you definitely need to wear sunscreen. And sometimes you can think, "Oh, well, that sounds overboard," but people who know know that you can get skin cancer anywhere from your scalp to your toenails. So think of it like you just said, like a lotion, where you want to make it part of your daily hygiene routine, and sometimes multiple times a day in some climates. CHRISTINE: The cancer scare part of it is very real, but Nancy, just to be completely candid, because I'm very vain, I think the reason I wear sunscreen is because of the anti-aging part of it. NANCY: Oh, totally. As an African-American woman, coming into this job in 2019, I did not think of sunscreen as something as important to my daily repertoire because of the adage, "Black don't crack," but it can brown. Brown can brown. And when you brown, you are subject to issues like aging. You are subject to issues like premature wrinkles, as well as the medical issues of skin cancer and damage. It's the best thing you can do for yourself, from a health standpoint and a vanity standpoint. It helps to protect against certain skin cancers. It diminishes hyperpigmentation, and it does help to prevent wrinkles from ultraviolet, aka UV ray damage. ROSIE: So Nancy, you're standing in the sunscreen aisle at the pharmacy, at the store. There are tons of brands. There are so many SPFs, broad spectrum, other jargon. I think it's really hard to tell what is marketing and what you really need to pay attention to. So can you start at the beginning? What is SPF? What is the minimum you'd recommend? NANCY: SPF itself stands for sun protection factor. Sun protection factor is how well a sunscreen protects against UVB rays, okay? You can actually find sunscreens that are marked SPF 5, 50, and even 100. Now, the minimum that experts recommend is SPF 30, okay? And when you look at the label, it will say broad spectrum, hopefully. Now, broad spectrum means that the sunscreen is shown to protect against both UVA and UVB rays, so both of those. Anything that is more than sun protection factor 30 only marginally increases your protection. However, most of our body picks are SPF 50 and above. ROSIE: Why? NANCY: Well, because user error, such as not applying enough sunscreen to begin with and also not reapplying the required amount as often as directed. ROSIE: So we're going to get into that in a minute. I'm curious, SPF 70 and SPF 100, does that mean you have to reapply it less often than an SPF 5? NANCY: No. It's just like whether you eat a hamburger or whether you eat a gourmet five class meal, you probably are going to need dinner the next day. You should apply the sunscreen according to the directions. We will almost always say every two hours or as needed. So if you are in the burning sun, perhaps you want to try to reapply more often than if you were in an office job and only go out every few hours or so. ROSIE: And Nancy, when you say UVA and UVB, what do we mean by that? NANCY: Both UVA and UVB rays are types of ultraviolet radiation from the sun. I love how an expert once described it to me as the A is for aging, and the B is for burning, but both can cause skin cancer, so that's very important. I think sometimes people think, "Oh, well UVA is just about aging. It's just about vanity." But no, no, no, no. UVB is known for sunburn. UVA is known for aging, but both can lead to skin cancer. CHRISTINE: Beyond SPF, there are a couple different categories of sunscreen, and the terms always really confuse me. So there's physical sunscreen, and that's sometimes called mineral sunscreen. And the second category is chemical sunscreens. Can you just break down what the difference is between the mineral and the chemical sunscreens? NANCY: The active ingredients in mineral sunscreens act like a barrier, like a physical barrier between you and the UV light. When you put a mineral sunscreen on your body, it's like scattering the rays before they reach the skin surface, right? It's like bouncing off. The active ingredients in chemical sunscreens absorb the UV light, so they act in very different ways. Sometimes a sunscreen wants to both deflect and absorb, so they'll have a mix of both mineral and chemical active ingredients, like a double whammy, if you will, and those are referred to as combo sunscreens, combination. CAIRA: And can you explain why anyone would choose one over the other? NANCY: Well, generally speaking, mineral and chemical sunscreens are equally as effective when they're applied correctly and when they're applied often enough, and this is why my experts unanimously say, whether they are doctors or people in the field, the best sunscreen is the one you will wear, because one caveat with a mineral sunscreen is that many of them tend to be more difficult to rub into the skin and they can leave a white cast. But mineral sunscreens often are preferred by people with highly sensitive skin because the ingredients within are often less likely to irritate skin. Now, chemical sunscreens, they are often much easier to rub in and they usually absorb a lot better into the skin. They're essentially invisible. But some people might not be totally comfortable with the idea of chemical sunscreens because of the perceived harm to their health. Now, this is very important at this moment to say that the FDA, which regulates sunscreens that are sold in the US as a drug, is working very hard with sunscreen makers to determine the safety and efficacy of a dozen chemical active ingredients. Now, in the meantime, there's no reason to stop using any sunscreen. Whatever sunscreen you have, use it. And I'll personally be honest, having covered sunscreen, hundreds of bottles of sunscreen over the last five and a half years, mineral sunscreens have gotten much better. Our mineral picks have become increasingly cosmetically elegant, which is the fancy term for, "They look good on your skin." Honestly, most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a quality mineral sunscreen and a chemical one after about 15 minutes, which is usually how long it takes for the lotions to fully dry down on the skin. That's why one of the instructions on the back of sunscreens usually are, "Apply 15 minutes before going off into the world." CHRISTINE: I was wondering that because I always kind of assumed that the mineral sunscreen, because it was this physical blocker, if you put it on, then you were good to go immediately, but that's not the case. Like with any sunscreen, you really should be waiting about 15 minutes before you go out into the sun. NANCY: If there's one thing I have learned at this job, follow the instructions. They're there for a reason. CHRISTINE: Read the manual, read the instructions. NANCY: Read the manual. Make the most of the products you buy by following the directions. ROSIE: Nancy, you've said they've gotten better aesthetically. Is that true even for us brown folks? NANCY: Oh, I totally understand, but you're operating with an old textbook. The new news is these very cosmetically elegant sunscreens are just beautiful. Our picks for mineral sunscreens, they are absolutely gorgeous on the skin, and leave, no, if not, almost no, white cast. I mean, some of my favorite things to do are to go and look at the reviews of our top picks and see all of the brown people who are like, "Oh my God, a mineral sunscreen I can actually wear." And I feel like my work is making a difference in the world. CAIRA: I haven't had the chance to try the new pick yet, Nancy, but I will say there is a caveat to the really nice mineral sunscreens, right? They're just not cheap. NANCY: They're not cheap. Oh, let me tell you, being bougie on a budget with sunscreen is rough, and it's very disheartening to me. I take into consideration with our sunscreen guide just how expensive it is to take care of yourself. So yes, mineral sunscreens tend to be a factor of seven or higher, more than chemical sunscreens. CAIRA: Seven times more expensive? NANCY: So for example, my favorite chemical pick sunscreen in our traditional sunscreen guide is the Equate Sport giant bottle, which is the Walmart brand. It's the cheapest sunscreen we've ever tested. It's less than 40 cents an ounce. It comes in this amazing jug. If I say to people, "Hey, do you want to try this Equate Sport giant bottle of sunscreen?", there will be some wrinkled noses. However, that's why I do brand concealed testing, and almost everyone who wears chemical sunscreens falls in love with it, even more so than a lot of our more expensive sunscreens that we like. Now, let's compare that to my new SPF bestie, which is Badger's SPF Adventure Mineral Cream. This is the new runner up to Thrive. These are mineral sunscreens. Badger's is fragrance free. It feels great. It looks great. It's only four ingredients, zinc oxide, sunflower seed, beeswax, and vitamin E, but it's $6 an ounce. Okay, let's compare $6 an ounce to 40 cents an ounce. So if you're on a beach day and you're expecting to put an ounce of sunscreen, which is about a shot glass's worth on your body like six times a day, six times six, that's $36 of sunscreen a day. That's not tenable for the average individual. ROSIE: So chemical, mineral, we talked about these two different types of sunscreens. Sometimes it's not clear in bold letters on the bottles what brand is what. How can you tell? NANCY: You are correct. It is often difficult to tell. So you're not often going to be able to tell the whole story from the front of the bottle or the tube. You're going to need to turn around and check the active ingredients on the back of the bottle or tube. Now, in a mineral sunscreen, there will only be two active ingredients possible, either/or or a combination of zinc oxide and titanium dioxide. Now, chemical sunscreens, there's so many active ingredients and they've all got funny names like avobenzone or homosalate or all kinds of long-named ingredients. But basically, if you see anything other than zinc oxide or titanium and dioxide in the active ingredient section, it's a chemical or combination sunscreen. If you see zinc oxide only, it's a mineral sunscreen. If you see titanium dioxide only, it's a mineral sunscreen. If you see zinc oxide and titanium dioxide, what is it, Caira? CAIRA: A mineral sunscreen. CHRISTINE: There will be a quiz for everyone at the end of this episode. CAIRA: I always... I mean, whenever I was doing the facial sunscreen testing, I would still get duped sometimes. I thought I was buying an all-mineral sunscreen, but then I would really look at the ingredients and realize, "Oh crap, I actually bought a combo," because they won't say it on the bottle anywhere. CHRISTINE: On the bottle. You have to look at the ingredient list. CAIRA: You really do. CHRISTINE: Yeah. CAIRA: But as Nancy said, look at the label, and if you can't pronounce any of the words on it at all, than it's a chemical. CHRISTINE: Then it's chemical. CAIRA: On the other hand, if you look at it and it only says zinc oxide or titanium dioxide, then it's a mineral. ROSIE: And we're specifically talking about active ingredients, because there will necessarily be other ingredients, like fragrance and things like that, but active ingredients, that's what we're looking for. CAIRA: It'll be at the top of the ingredients box. ROSIE: Got you. NANCY: Absolutely. And I also can get duped. Some sunscreens use vague language, like, "Mineral plus," or, "reef lovin", so it's always really good to checkrr the ingredients. Like a lot of the more inexpensive sunscreens that only use zinc oxide or titanium dioxide, they often won't call themselves mineral sunscreens. They'll call themselves baby sunscreen, which I find interesting, right. I mean, I treat myself like a baby. I like to wear no added fragrance items. I like to have fewer ingredients. So I always find that really interesting. CAIRA: Right -- the only difference between baby sunscreens and regular sunscreens is that baby ones often avoid harsher ingredients, like you're saying Nancy. But grown ups can certainly use sunscreens marketed towards babies. And babies over 6 months old can use sunscreens that aren't marketed for them. NANCY: Yes. CAIRA: And the reason we're saying 6 months and older is because babies that are younger than that are more susceptible to the side effects of sunscreen. So the best advice we can give you is just to keep your baby out of the sun altogether. CHRISTINE: Nancy, I like to use Korean sunscreens and Japanese sunscreens. These are kind of different sunscreens than are available here in the United States. They have different active ingredients. NANCY: Well, Christine, I didn't know that you walked on the wild side like that. I didn't know I was in the presence of a felon. CHRISTINE: Oh, shh. Don't tell anybody. NANCY: Okay. I don't know. Big brother could be listening to our podcast, and so therefore, I am going to stick to the fact that only sunscreens containing FDA approved active ingredients are okayed for sale in the United States. CHRISTINE: Well, I did buy my last batch in Japan, so... CAIRA: Straight from the source. CHRISTINE: Yeah, straight from the source. But I mean, there's definitely sites that you can buy these sunscreens through. NANCY: Oh, it's easier than ever to purchase imported sunscreens, and many people do. And that's because the FDA hasn't approved any new sunscreen ingredients in nearly three decades now. We are trying, but trying is not results at this moment. And so other countries like the ones you mentioned, Japan, Korea, they've approved a variety of sunscreen filters that are reported to outperform FDA-approved active ingredients in terms of protection, in particular, UVA protection. And what does the A stand for? CHRISTINE: Aging. CAIRA: Aging. NANCY: Exactly. Right. So a lot of people, like Christine, who has admitted her vanity, like to seek out products that pertain to their interests and also help them prevent skin cancer. You're not alone, Christine. CHRISTINE: And what about European sunscreens? Those can also have different active ingredients than what you can find in the States, right? NANCY: Absolutely, and I have spoken with the FDA. Everybody wants a solution. It's just hard to come to. One of the experts I've spoken to used the term, "Quagmire." CHRISTINE: For the European sunscreens, we've talked a bit on this show about how La Roche-Posay is a pharmacy brand that you can now get in the States, and they sell a pretty popular sunscreen line. Is the sunscreen that's available here from La Roche-Posay, does it have those same active ingredients in Europe, or is it a different sunscreen they're selling here in US pharmacies versus what you would buy, say, in France? NANCY: If it is on the shelves in American stores, you can best believe it only has either the two active mineral ingredients that the FDA has approved, one of the chemical active ingredients that the FDA has approved, or a combination of the two. The fancy brands that are sold in America, there's not a single chemical active ingredient that has been approved since 1999. So there's nothing new. ROSIE: Okay, quick recap with sunscreen, you got to be wearing it all year round every day all day. You got to be wearing it in the snow, in the rain, in the sunshine, all four seasons. And you got to be looking for SPF 30 or above, ideally. You also can consider your choices, chemical sunscreen, mineral sunscreen, or maybe a combo. Mineral sunscreens are going to contain active ingredients, and those act like a physical barrier between you and UV light. Chemical sunscreens are going to contain active ingredients that absorb UV light, and again, the biggest slam dunk takeaway so far, sunscreen all day, every day. CHRISTINE: We're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll discuss some of the most surprising things that you have found, Nancy, in your sunscreen reporting, including what you should know about quote reef safe sunscreens, how much you should be wearing, other things you can do to protect yourself from the sun. We'll be right back. ROSIE: Welcome back. So, Nancy, in addition to 'broad spectrum', another term I've seen on bottles of sunscreen is reef safe. What does that mean? And is that something we should be gravitating toward? NANCY: Okay, well, step one, some sunscreens may be marketed as reef safe, okay, and there's many definitions that exist for this term. Regulations vary location to location, but there is no such thing as a totally reef safe sunscreen. Only reef friendly, or I like to say reef safer. But the truth of the matter is reefs are suffering because of some sunscreen ingredients. Okay? Some sunscreen ingredients can be harmful to marine life, and marine life includes coral reefs. So if you're going into a place with reefs, like Hawaii, for example, you need to be using a very specific kind of sunscreen when you're going into the ocean. So what you need to do is look for sunscreens that utilize non-nano active minerals. So you should be looking for non-nano titanium dioxide or non-nano zinc oxide in a mineral sunscreen. And essentially, the particles of titanium dioxide or zinc oxide aren't small enough to be easily absorbed or ingested by marine life. CAIRA: Right. And really, the research says non-nano particles are thought to be better than any other sunscreen ingredients, but they're still not doing zero harm. So the safest choice for marine life is to wear sun protective clothing in the ocean, like rashguards, and no sunscreen. But if you want sunscreen – go with something non-nano. And Nancy, what are your recommendations in that category – of 'reef safe-er' sunscreens? NANCY: Okay, so I love our picks so much. Anyone who's looking for sunscreen to take with them on their next fabulous trip, I recommend three brands, or we, as a collective, because contrary to popular belief, this isn't just me sitting around rubbing sunscreen on my body. I test these things on so many people a year. I test them on everyone from my mom with her older, darker skin. I test things on my brother with his beard. I test things on my children, my family, my colleagues, and I just had an amazing pool day where we all got together and tested different sunscreens. From all of this very careful look-and-feel conversation, we recommend three reef safer brands: Thrive, Think Sport, and Badger. CAIRA: Where was my invite to this pool party? NANCY: Girl, you have got to come back to Los Angeles. CHRISTINE: What did the panelists like the most this year? NANCY: Okay, so this has been a really fun year. Like I said, every year the sunscreen gets better and better. We did a ton of brand concealed evaluations where we focused on look and feel. So we've got our tried-and-true's. For a few years now, Thrive, which is a reef friendly mineral sunscreen. The beloved sunscreen that is Banana Boat Light As Air. Now, it's a chemical sunscreen, but it's a great one. I mean, it dries down. Caira, you can back me up. It's got a great dry down. CAIRA: Yeah, it does. NANCY: Dry down is the fancy way of saying how does it feel on your skin after 15 minutes? Is it tacky? Is it greasy? Do you feel it? And it truly is light as air. Fun fact, the Banana Boat face sunscreen and the Banana Boat body sunscreen is the exact same sunscreen, right, Caira? CAIRA: Mm-hmm. But they will charge you extra. If you don't look at the label and you buy the face sunscreen, they will charge you extra for that, so look at it. CHRISTINE: That's a hot tip. I like that. NANCY: I know. Okay, and then of course, I've already talked ad nauseum about my favorite long-time pick, the Equate Sport giant bottle, which is the cheapest sunscreen we've ever tested, at less than 40 cents an ounce. But almost everyone who wears chemical sunscreens falls in love with it. The caveat is it does smell like a medicine cabinet- CAIRA: Lovely. NANCY: ... When you first put it on. Okay? But that is the price you pay to have a jug of sunscreen for $13. Okay. Now, like I said earlier, my new SPF bestie, I'm telling you guys, Badger's SPF 50 Adventure Mineral Cream is the new runner up to Thrive in the Reef Safe Guide. Like I said, it's fragrance free. It feels great. It looks great, but $6 an ounce. I'd be blessed whoever has that in their budget. CAIRA: Now that we've got a basic understanding of sunscreen and how it works, I want to talk to you about the things people may be doing wrong with their sunscreens. See, I learned so many surprising things when I was working on the Wirecutter Guide for Face Sunscreen, so I kind of wanted to reveal to the people some of our findings in the form of a game. So we're going to give you a scenario, and you're going to tell us what's wrong with this picture and explain why. Are you ready? NANCY: I'm ready. CAIRA: Okay. Scenario one: on a hot summer day, I'll dab a little sunscreen on my face and my body when I go outside. NANCY: I mean, would you drink a thimble full of water if you felt dehydrated? So, no, you should be applying at least an ounce of sunscreen to your whole body if you're going to be exposed to the sun. Now, what an ounce look like? People say a shot glass full. Basically, fill your whole palm full, divide it in two, and slather that all around your body, making sure to get all of the crevices and creaks and crannies. And when in doubt, put more on. I would rather be slightly more greasy than to not have a protected spot. CAIRA: Yeah, when I was working on sunscreens, my motto became more is more, because you can never have too much, only too little. ROSIE: Okay, Nancy, scenario two: I slather sunscreen all over my face and body right before I go out, and I'm set for the day. NANCY: Now, this is actually something I also learned in my five and a half years here, because let she amongst us who has not just slathered once and thought they were done for the day, throw the first bottle of sunscreen, because I did not realize that its efficacy wears off, or it wears off. So you should be reapplying sunscreen approximately every two hours or more often, especially if you're swimming or sweating. I recommend setting a phone timer, continue to reapply. Just like one glass of water isn't enough in the morning. You need to drink water throughout the day. One application of sunscreen is also not enough. CAIRA: Okay, next scenario. It's the dead of a gloomy winter, and I'm all bundled up, all the time. So the only area of skin exposed is my face, so I don't wear any sunscreen. NANCY: That's the part that many people care about most. So I definitely would suggest that you wear sunscreen on that exposed skin. And what a lot of people don't realize is often winter sun with the reflection of the snow can be even harsher on your skin. So definitely still wear sunscreen in the winter on that exposed skin. At least half a teaspoon of sunscreen on your face, neck and ears. Don't forget your ears. Don't forget behind the ears. Don't forget inside the ear. Just get your ears, people. And like you said, Caira, as you learned when you did the Face Sunscreen Guide, more is more. CAIRA: Yeah. Also, half a teaspoon can be kind of hard to measure out when you're just slathering sunscreen on your face. But what I learned is that if you put out just your index in your middle finger and you line those two fingers with sunscreen, that should be enough for that entire area. ROSIE: There you go. Okay, here's another scenario. What if I'm at the pool and I use spray sunscreen to get all of my hard to reach nooks and crannies? What do you think? NANCY: I think that you probably didn't get all the hard to reach nooks and crannies because we don't really recommend any spray sunscreens. We totally understand their appeal. So over the years, we've asked many experts about spray sunscreens unanimously. They're like, "Spray sunscreens are not a good choice." And that's for a couple of reasons. Number one, you might be thinking it's getting those nooks and crannies, but it's not. A lot of the sunscreen sprays away in the wind. And the funny thing is, to get the sunscreen onto your skin, even after you spray it, you still have to rub it in so you're not even skipping a step. You actually are adding a less effective step by using spray sunscreen. Plus, if you can smell the spray, you're inhaling it, and experts tell us that that poses a potential health risk. CAIRA: Okay, Nancy, after I wash my face in the morning, I apply my sunscreen first and then my moisturizer. NANCY: Well, that's better than no sunscreen. So step one, I give you an A for effort, but I give you a B for these steps, because our experts always tell us that sunscreen should be the last step in your skincare routine. We wash our face, we do our skincare, and then you apply the sunscreen, let it set, and then put on your makeup if you're going to wear any. CAIRA: Right. ROSIE: Okay. I've got another scenario for Nancy. I'm wearing a foundation with SPF 30 in it, so I don't have to wear sunscreen. True? NANCY: Not true, because of the parameters around how much sunscreen is enough. So you'd need to use a lot of makeup. Half a teaspoon is more foundation than most people would normally wear in order to get the full SPF 30 protection. So still wear your sunscreen. There's no harm. It would be difficult to wear enough makeup to effectively get the full SPF 30 sun protection. ROSIE: So again, if you happen to get a little bit more, it's Caira's more is more adage. CAIRA: Always more is more. CHRISTINE: Okay, I'm going to take the last one. So let's say I don't trust that sunscreen actually works, and I think it'll do more harm than good to my health, say, like, the chemicals will absorb into my skin and cause cancer, so I don't wear it at all. NANCY: Well, we know Christine doesn't believe this because she's hopping planes to Japan. But of course, we all know that's not true. However, it's understandable how people can get the wrong idea. Everybody makes the choices they want to make in their life. We here at Wirecutter think it's very important to wear sunscreen. It is possible to find a sunscreen that should work for you, but if you're just like, "Nope, absolutely not," you're going to have to be dedicated to wearing sun protective clothing. Now, sun protective clothing is amazing. You've all seen people with those big old floppy hats, the masks, the jackets, the ponchos, the umbrella. Kudos. If that's the life you choose to live, you're still protecting yourself from the sun. UPF clothing is what you're going to want to look for. You're going to want to look for ultraviolet protection factor. Now, UPF is to fabric what SPF is to sunscreens. And there are some specifically manufactured UPF clothes, like rash guards for surfers. All clothing offers some protection against UV rays, but not all fabrics are protective ones like that are specifically manufactured. So you're going to want to look for thicker, darker fabrics that are more protective than light thin-colored ones. And if you can find a looser fit that's more baggy, that's not skin tight, it's more protective. CHRISTINE: All right, that's good to know. I will not be wearing my Eileen Fisher middle-aged lady look to protect myself from the sun. I will be wearing polyester bag over my body, right? CAIRA: Yeah. With an umbrella. CHRISTINE: I think I saw one on the runway this fashion week. CAIRA: There's always one. NANCY: You're just in vogue. CAIRA: Okay, Nancy, before we wrap, we always ask our guests one final question. What's the last thing you've bought that you've really loved? NANCY: I love this question. I buy so many things that I love. This is the best job for me because I love to shop. I love to analyze things, and I'm really thoughtful about the things I buy. I think the last thing I bought that I really love is this bag that I have been eyeing, this backpack, for at least seven or eight months. It's the Tobiq. It's this backpack with all these compartments. I got the biggest one, which is 60 liters. It has like 18 compartments. It's this giant backpack that can also serve as a carry-on suitcase. CAIRA: Nancy, I am listening. NANCY: Oh my God. It's amazing. The Instagram ads got me. I am an Instagram mom, and my phone knows me better than I know myself. So I bought the bag, and I bought it at a time last month where I could get the new Free People collab. So it's these really cool rainbow colors, and it's so beautiful, and I love it, and it carries all my stuff. It has a huge laptop compartment. I mean, I have 10 giant backpacks, so adding this one was, especially because it was like 200 bucks, I was like, "Do I need this?" And then I got it, and I was like, "I need this." The Tobiq 60 liter backpack bag. ROSIE: I love it. Nancy, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. NANCY: I love you so much. This is great. ROSIE: Nancy Redd, what a delight. CHRISTINE: Oh, my gosh. CAIRA: I love her. ROSIE: A wealth of knowledge, but also just an absolute delight. CAIRA: Yeah. CHRISTINE: I'm never going to forget the UVA, UVB. CAIRA: Aging. CHRISTINE: Aging and burning. Now, I understand. ROSIE: I love that. My takeaway from this episode is just how much sunscreen I need to be putting on my whole body. I think I've been really good about coverage on my face, but I got to make sure that I'm doing enough on my arms and my legs and my hands. I can't have my toes wrinkling. CAIRA: Yeah, that's why price per ounce is so important. You might feel like you're really in the weeds when you're looking at something like that, but when you have to use a shot glass worth of sunscreen on your body every day, that really does add up. CHRISTINE: Or every two hours- CAIRA: Or every two hours. CHRISTINE: ... If you're outside in the sun a lot, right? CAIRA: Yeah. And also, one thing that I really wanted to highlight again was just Nancy's point about reef safe sunscreens, because I feel like there's a lot of intentional confusion around that. I want to press people to look a little bit deeper into any sunscreens that they're picking up, hoping that they will be reef safe, to just do a little extra digging and research to make sure that it is those non-nano titanium dioxide or zinc oxide ingredients, because otherwise, it isn't actually reef safe. CHRISTINE: Yeah, I didn't know that before, and now I will know to look for that. My big takeaway from this episode is that I am breaking the law, that I am un-American, and I am buying sunscreen that I'm not supposed to be buying here in the United States. But I love it, and I will probably continue doing it. CAIRA: CCC on the lam. CHRISTINE: The other big takeaway I have is that I know a lot of people who do end up ponying up for the La Roche Posay, like the European brand sunscreens at the pharmacy, and those are great. They might feel great, but you should not buy them thinking that they have the actual active ingredients that are sold in sunscreens in Europe. If they're being sold in a pharmacy here in the States, they are not going to have those active ingredients. They will have active ingredients that are FDA approved here, so you're essentially buying a US sunscreen that might feel fancier. ROSIE: If you want to find out more about Wirecutter's coverage or if you want to check out any of the products that Nancy recommended today, in addition to any of her reporting on sunscreen, go to our website, or you can find a link in our show notes, and that is it for us this week. If you're going to sunbathe, put on that sunscreen. CHRISTINE: That's right. ROSIE: Peace. CHRISTINE: Bye. ROSIE: Bye. CHRISTINE: The Wirecutter Show is executive produced by Rosie Guerin and produced by Abigail Keele, engineering support from Mattie Mazziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lozano, Alisha Bah-Etup, and Diane Wong. Wirecutter's Deputy Publisher and General Manager is Cliff Levy. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's Editor in Chief. I'm Christine Cyr Clisset. CAIRA: I'm Caira Blackwell. ROSIE: And I'm Rosie Guerin. CHRISTINE: Thanks for listening. CHRISTINE: It's like you can smoke it, but you can't sell it sort of a thing.
