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Yahoo
18-07-2025
- Politics
- Yahoo
Adelita Grijalva wins Arizona Democratic primary for House seat
Adelita Grijalva won the Democratic House primary in Arizona to succeed her father, beating a young social media activist in a closely watched election seen as a test of the party's generational divide. Raúl Grijalva, a longtime congressman in southern Arizona, died from cancer earlier this year and left a vacancy in the state's seventh district. The younger Grijalva, a 54-year-old who served for 20 years on a Tucson school board, has been a Pima county supervisor since 2020. Grijalva, a progressive, has said upholding democracy, standing up for immigrant rights and protecting access to Medicaid and Medicare are among her top priorities. 'This is a victory not for me, but for our community and the progressive movement my dad started in Southern Arizona more than 50 years ago,' Grijalva said in a statement. Related: Arizona Democratic race for House seat highlights party's internal debate – and previews the midterms She faced an insurgent challenger in Deja Foxx, a 25-year-old social media influencer and activist whose campaign focused on her personal story of using the kinds of government programs the Trump administration has attacked. Foxx also called out Grijalva for her 'legacy last name' and said political roles shouldn't be inherited. 'I'm not using my dad's last name,' Adelita Grijalva previously told the Guardian. 'It's mine, too. I've worked in this community for a very long time – 26 years at a nonprofit, 20 years on the school board, four years and four months on the board of supervisors. I've earned my last name too.' Grijalva won easily. She led her next closest rival, Foxx, by about 40 percentage points when the Associated Press declared her the winner. She had a large lead in all seven counties that are all or partially in the district, including the most populous, Pima County, which includes Tucson and its western suburbs. Grijalva also racked up a lengthy list of heavyweight endorsements – including Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Bernie Sanders and several state and local officials. The district, which includes parts of Tucson and Arizona's borderlands, is strongly blue, meaning the winner of the primary is the likely victor of the general. But three Republicans ran in their party's primary; Daniel Butierez will face Adelita Grijalva in the general on 23 September. National Democratic infighting brought extra attention to the race, with Foxx bringing up questions of seniority and nepotism. Raúl Grijalva was one of three Democratic lawmakers to die in office this year. Foxx received backing from Leaders We Deserve, David Hogg's Pac, which is challenging incumbents in Democratic primaries as it seeks to remake the party. The seat will not decide control of the US House, but it is one of three vacancies in heavily Democratic districts that, when filled in special elections this fall, will probably chip away at Republicans' slender 220-212 majority in the chamber. Solve the daily Crossword
Politico
16-07-2025
- Politics
- Politico
Another win for legacy politics
Presented by FAMILY AFFAIR — Arizona is about to get a new congresswoman: Adelita Grijalva won decisively in a special Democratic primary Tuesday, which makes it all but certain she'll win the state's heavily Democratic 7th District in the September general election. The backing of Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez boosted her progressive credentials. Her experience as a former county supervisor also helped her cause. But perhaps most important, name recognition mattered: She shared the last name of her father, Democratic Rep. Raúl Grijalva, who held the seat for over 20 years before passing away in March due to cancer. It was enough to overcome four other candidates, and the generational arguments made by her closest rival, Deja Foxx, who was half Grijalva's age. It also served as a reminder that even as voters increasingly demand a change from the status quo, they aren't willing to completely reject dynastic politics yet — particularly in the Democratic Party. Grijalva's opponents bet that the anger roiling the Democratic grassroots — and the deep frustration toward the party establishment — would be enough to overcome the Grijalva legacy. Foxx, a 25-year-old activist and content creator, presented herself as the option for generational change and was backed by David Hogg, the youthful gun control activist who has rattled the party with his calls for primary challenges to 'asleep at the wheel' veteran incumbents in safe Democratic districts. Former state Rep. Daniel Hernandez, 35, also emphasized that voters wanted 'a new type of leadership.' These attacks, however, failed to stick: Ultimately, Grijalva won over 60 percent of the vote, while Foxx and Hernández trailed far behind at 21 percent and 14 percent, respectively. Both parties have a soft spot for legacy candidates, but the issue of introducing new blood into the party is especially pressing for Democrats. They are coming off a demoralizing presidential defeat shaped by the ouster of 82-year-old President Joe Biden as the party nominee over concerns about his advanced age. Party leadership is fielding intense pushback for the lack of generational change: A majority of the House members over the age of 70 are Democrats; more than half of the House Democrats over the age of 75 plan to run again in 2026. Every sitting member of Congress who has died since November 2022 has been a Democrat. For younger Democrats who are desperate to rid the party of the old guard, swapping an elderly lawmaker with a younger family member isn't the change they seek — it's simply perpetuating a status quo that has left Republicans in control of every branch of government in Washington. The list of current Democratic members of Congress with a familial connection, or who 'inherited' seats previously held by their relatives, is extensive. There's Rep. Debbie Dingell of Michigan, who in 2015 succeeded her husband, Rep. John Dingell, who had succeeded his own father in 1955. When Indiana Rep. Julia Carson's death triggered a special election in 2008, her grandson André Carson won and has been serving ever since. Rep. Doris Matsui ran and won her husband's seat in California's 7th congressional district after he passed away in 2005. Another member of the California delegation, Rep. Jimmy Panetta, serves a district his father once held for over 15 years. Before his federal indictment tainted the family name, Sen. Bob Menendez's connections helped his son win a House seat in New Jersey, where he joined Rep. Donald Payne Jr. — who had captured the Newark-based seat held by his own father until his 2012 death. The younger Payne then held the seat until his own death in 2024, ending close to 40 years of family control of the district. The attempts to keep power in the family don't always work — and are increasingly frowned upon: New Jersey Democratic Gov. Phil Murphy's attempt to install his wife, Tammy Murphy, as senator was widely criticized and helped rally organizers to coalesce around then-Rep. Andy Kim, who beat New Jersey's political machine and won the seat. In Arizona, the forces of generational change helped power Foxx's special election campaign. Foxx, who had been engaging with younger voters on social media platforms and leaning into Gen Z trends, sought to tap into youth disillusionment with the current system: Gen Zers have the lowest levels of pride for America, trust in federal institutions are declining, and only 15 percent think the country is headed in the right direction, according to a Harvard Youth poll. Although she was criticized for having no experience in holding office, to some of her supporters that was an asset: It meant she wasn't implicated in a system they distrusted. But her generational change platform fell short because it represented the entirety of her message. Although she presented herself as an advocate for reproductive rights, the campaign's key messaging focused on Foxx potentially becoming one of the youngest members of Congress and prompting party change. Foxx's youth and digital media savvy drew comparisons to Zohran Mamdani, the 33-year-old democratic socialist who defeated political scion and former Democratic Gov. Andrew Cuomo in June's New York City mayoral primary. But there were several important differences. Mamdani focused on laying out specific policies — like freezing the rent and free buses — in addition to communicating his change message. He also had the benefit of a sharp ideological contrast with Cuomo, his main rival and a veteran pol who was saddled with immense baggage. In ideological terms, there wasn't a tremendous amount of difference between Foxx and Grijalva. It's a lesson for the Gen Z candidates looking to jump into primaries for the midterm elections: Stumping on generational change isn't nearly enough to win, let alone topple political dynasties. Welcome to POLITICO Nightly. Reach out with news, tips and ideas at nightly@ Or contact tonight's author at ckim@ or on X (formerly known as Twitter) at @ck_525. What'd I Miss? — Trump tells those focused on Epstein he doesn't want their support: President Donald Trump today trashed many MAGA members, condemning their ongoing push for files related to Jeffrey Epstein and bemoaning that they are playing into Democrats' hands. The Democrats' 'new SCAM is what we will forever call the Jeffrey Epstein Hoax, and my PAST supporters have bought into this 'bullshit,' hook, line, and sinker,' Trump posted on his Truth Social account. 'Let these weaklings continue forward and do the Democrats' work, don't even think about talking of our incredible and unprecedented success, because I don't want their support anymore!' — Vance offers a preview of how GOP will message the Big Beautiful Bill: President Donald Trump's 'One Big Beautiful Bill' is all about supporting the children — American children. That was Vice President JD Vance's message today as he rallied at a family-owned machine shop in this purple Pennsylvania manufacturing town, kicking off what is expected to be a summer of intense Republican efforts to sell the party's domestic legislation ahead of the midterms. 'We couldn't get a single Democrat to vote for $1,000 for every newborn baby in the United States of America,' Vance said, referring to a provision in the law that establishes 'Trump Accounts' for babies with Social Security numbers born between 2025 and 2028. 'I realized the problem: If we had made that $1,000 accessible not to newborn American babies but to illegal aliens, I think we could have got the Democrats' vote.' — Democrats sue Trump over canceled disaster grant program: A group of 20 Democratic attorneys general filed a new lawsuit against the Trump administration this morning, aiming to restore a canceled grant program that helped states protect against potential disaster damage. The lawsuit says the administration in April illegally ended a multibillion-dollar Federal Emergency Management Agency program that was established under a 2018 law signed by President Donald Trump. The suit, filed in U.S. District Court in Massachusetts, also asks the court to declare that FEMA's current leader 'is acting as FEMA administrator unlawfully.' — Crypto bills stall again on House floor: More cryptocurrency drama is unfolding on the House floor today, a day after conservative hard-liners foiled GOP leaders' plans to advance a trio of regulatory bills. The hard-liners climbed back aboard following a Tuesday night meeting with President Donald Trump and a last-minute negotiation today with House leaders that allowed the chamber to take an initial procedural step on the legislation. But the deal they cut — to merge the market-structure-focused CLARITY Act with a separate bill banning a central bank digital currency — has sparked backlash from members of the committees that crafted the legislation. Speaker Mike Johnson is now huddling with members of the Financial Services and Agriculture panels, as well as the conservative holdouts, in Johnson's ceremonial office off the House floor as a vote on the rule setting up debate on the legislation remains open. — Trump keeps everyone guessing on Powell's fate: President Donald Trump did not rule out trying to remove Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, whom he has lambasted for keeping interest rates high, but said it was 'highly unlikely' that he would do so. Trump's comment today gave the financial markets whiplash, coming after he surveyed a group of hard-line House Republicans in the Oval Office Tuesday night — who all want Powell ousted — on whether he should fire the central bank chief, according to two people with direct knowledge of the meeting. The president was also working to assuage the rebels' concerns about a central bank digital currency before a key vote. AROUND THE WORLD CEASEFIRE (FOR NOW) — Syrian government officials and leaders in the Druze religious minority announced a renewed ceasefire today after days of clashes that have threatened to unravel the country's postwar political transition and drawn military intervention by powerful neighbor Israel, The Associated Press reports. It was not immediately clear if the agreement, announced by Syria's Interior Ministry and in a video message by a Druze religious leader, would hold. A previous ceasefire announced Tuesday quickly fell apart and a prominent Druze leader, Sheikh Hikmat Al-Hijri, disavowed the new agreement. Israeli strikes continued after the ceasefire announcement. The announcement came after Israel launched rare airstrikes in the heart of Damascus, an escalation in a campaign that it said was intended to defend the Druze and push Islamic militants away from its border. The Druze form a substantial community in Israel as well as in Syria and are seen in Israel as a loyal minority, often serving in the military. The escalation in Syria began with tit-for-tat kidnappings and attacks between local Sunni Bedouin tribes and Druze armed factions in the southern province of Sweida. Government forces that intervened to restore order clashed with the Druze. BUDGET NUMBER — The European Commission has proposed a central EU budget of €1.816 trillion for the seven-year period from 2028 after days of fraught internal negotiations. That figure would represent an increase in the European Union's spending power compared with the current budget that has run from 2021. Members of the Commission, led by President Ursula von der Leyen, finally settled on this number today, meaning that total spending would rise to 1.15 percent of the EU's gross national income, compared with around 1.1 percent over the current period. 'It is a budget that matches Europe's ambition, that confronts Europe's challenges and that strengthens our independence,' von der Leyen told reporters. 'The budget is larger, it is smarter, and it is sharper.' Nightly Number RADAR SWEEP THE PYRAMIDS OF SCOTLAND — In the middle of Scotland, there are 11 giant pyramids. Strewn around the landscape of Balmoral Castle, beloved by Queen Victoria of England, the monuments look like they'd be right at home in Egypt. But the structures are monuments to grief, love and nation building unconnected to Egypt. The estate's largest pyramid, made of granite, came after the death of Prince Albert in 1861 — it's now dubbed the 'Great Pyramid of Scotland.' Other structures commemorate the death of other royals. For the BBC, Mike MacEachern traveled to the estate and wrote about the experience. Parting Image Did someone forward this email to you? Sign up here.
The Guardian
16-07-2025
- Politics
- The Guardian
Adelita Grijalva wins Arizona Democratic primary for House seat
Adelita Grijalva won the Democratic House primary in Arizona to succeed her father, beating a young social media activist in a closely watched election seen as a test of the party's generational divide. Raúl Grijalva, a longtime congressman in southern Arizona, died from cancer earlier this year and left a vacancy in the state's seventh district. The younger Grijalva, a 54-year-old who served for 20 years on a Tucson school board, has been a Pima county supervisor since 2020. Grijalva, a progressive, has said upholding democracy, standing up for immigrant rights and protecting access to Medicaid and Medicare are among her top priorities. 'This is a victory not for me, but for our community and the progressive movement my dad started in Southern Arizona more than 50 years ago,' Grijalva said in a statement. She faced an insurgent challenger in Deja Foxx, a 25-year-old social media influencer and activist whose campaign focused on her personal story of using the kinds of government programs the Trump administration has attacked. Foxx also called out Grijalva for her 'legacy last name' and said political roles shouldn't be inherited. 'I'm not using my dad's last name,' Adelita Grijalva previously told the Guardian. 'It's mine, too. I've worked in this community for a very long time – 26 years at a nonprofit, 20 years on the school board, four years and four months on the board of supervisors. I've earned my last name too.' Grijalva won easily. She led her next closest rival, Foxx, by about 40 percentage points when the Associated Press declared her the winner. She had a large lead in all seven counties that are all or partially in the district, including the most populous, Pima County, which includes Tucson and its western suburbs. Grijalva also racked up a lengthy list of heavyweight endorsements – including Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Bernie Sanders and several state and local officials. The district, which includes parts of Tucson and Arizona's borderlands, is strongly blue, meaning the winner of the primary is the likely victor of the general. But three Republicans ran in their party's primary; Daniel Butierez will face Adelita Grijalva in the general on 23 September. National Democratic infighting brought extra attention to the race, with Foxx bringing up questions of seniority and nepotism. Raúl Grijalva was one of three Democratic lawmakers to die in office this year. Foxx received backing from Leaders We Deserve, David Hogg's Pac, which is challenging incumbents in Democratic primaries as it seeks to remake the party. The seat will not decide control of the US House, but it is one of three vacancies in heavily Democratic districts that, when filled in special elections this fall, will probably chip away at Republicans' slender 220-212 majority in the chamber.
The Hill
16-07-2025
- Politics
- The Hill
Virginia Foxx not done making waves as the ‘Iron Lady' of the House GOP
From elevator-bound staffers to the top leaders in the House, no one is underestimating 82-year-old Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-N.C.). After Foxx chaired a nearly 22-hour House Rules Committee hearing ahead of House passage of Trump's 'One Big Beautiful Bill' in May, Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) called her the 'Iron Lady of the House.' House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries (D-N.Y.) called Foxx a 'tough cookie' and a 'straight shooter' in a press conference a few weeks later. Now in her 11th term in Congress, Foxx is undeniably one of the most iconic figures in the House Republican Conference — a stature achieved not by making waves through social media or bombastic stances, but through being a workhorse and a team player. 'I am really, really focused on not wasting time,' Foxx said in an interview with The Hill in June. 'If you see me when I'm waiting for the train, you'll see I go to the end of the platform so that I am on the first car, so when I get out, I'm as close as I can be to where I'm going.' But while she is known for her toughness, Foxx also has a soft side — tearing up when talking about the American Revolution's 'barefoot soldiers who were willing to risk their lives for freedom.' She's poured her energy through her decades-long career into helping people through education, just as it helped her rise up from poverty. Fox in this Congress is the only Republican woman chairing a committee in the House, selected by the Speaker to lead the powerful Rules panel after she led Republicans on the House Committee on Education and the Workforce for four terms. Foxx, though, doesn't see that statistic as evidence of bias against women in the GOP. 'I think a lot of the press tries to make it look like women are not respected in the Republican Party, but it's really a matter of tenure,' she said, adding: 'The fact that I'm the only woman just means that we haven't had women stay as long as men stay or start earlier to be able to gain the seniority to become a chair. So it's just a matter of timing, more than anything.' Foxx's personal life story centers on the transformative power of education. Born in New York City (Manhattan, to be exact — 'Wikipedia has it wrong'), Foxx moved to North Carolina when she was six years old, living in houses without electricity or running water. She had no plans to go to college until a teacher her senior year encouraged her to do so. She attended Lees-McRae College in North Carolina for a semester; then went to live with her grandparents in the Bronx while she worked as a typist near Wall Street and saved her money; and then went back to enroll at Appalachian State University. Foxx transferred and graduated from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and went on to earn an education doctorate from UNC-Greensboro. But Foxx stresses that benefiting from education is not about collecting college degrees, but about skill development. She recalled her younger brother worrying that his family would be ashamed of him for not wanting to go to college. Foxx helped set up a carpentry apprenticeship program for him to enter, and he eventually got a license. 'We've set a standard for many people that says if you don't have a college degree, you're no good. And that bothers me a lot,' Foxx said. Foxx is as much of a team player on the political side of the House GOP as she is within the official side. One of the booths in the National Republican Congressional Committee from which members make fundraising calls has Foxx's name on it, sources have told The Hill over the years. Those workhorse sensibilities have long been apparent: A profile of Foxx in The Hill 20 years ago described Foxx's personality as 'half-grandmother, half-drill sergeant.' Around the Capitol campus, Foxx is widely known for her reputation for scolding staff and others for hopping on a members-only elevator, or telling staff and reporters to get out of the way. 'I am a rule follower. Ninety-five percent of the time, I'm in a hurry, and most members are,' Foxx said. 'And so there's a members' elevator for a reason, and it really is for time management more than anything else.' Her elevator reputation is so strong that other members have thanked her for the installation of new members-only elevators updates in House office buildings over the last year — but Foxx said the credit for those new key-card activated elevators to House Administration Committee Chair Bryan Steil (R-Wis.), insisting she did not ask for the additions. It's not just elevators. Rep. Bruce Westerman (R-Ark.), one of Foxx's friends in Congress, recalled one of his first impressions of her while waiting on a bus to go to an event. 'This white-haired lady stood up and told the bus driver, 'close the door and go,'' Westerman said. 'And the bus driver closed the door and left. And my wife and I were there, and my wife said, 'You better watch out for her.'' 'There's only one Virginia Foxx,' he added. 'I think a lot of people see sometimes a rough exterior, but she's got a huge heart inside.' Foxx also made waves when she scolded a reporter in a press conference after Republicans nominated Johnson to be Speaker after a three-month saga following former Speaker Kevin McCarthy's (R-Calif.) removal in 2023. One of the first questions to Johnson concerned his efforts supporting Trump's 'Stop the Steal' effort after the 2020 election. Republicans booed — and Foxx, standing prominently next to Johnson, shouted back: 'Shut up! Shut up!' Foxx told The Hill she thought the questions should have centered on how the new Speaker nominee felt. 'We were in such a wonderful mood. We'd gone through a lot to get speaker Johnson elected, and the mood in the room was so happy, so happy. And for somebody to bring up something totally opposite of where we were at the moment was very frustrating,' Foxx said. 'The woman was clueless about the tone at the time.' Foxx, who just celebrated her 82nd birthday, is the 15th oldest lawmaker in all of Congress — and the 10th oldest representative. Age has become a major political liability in recent years, particularly with former President Biden being forced to drop out of the 2024 race due to concerns about his mental acuity and a number of other aging lawmakers being scrutinized more regularly. Foxx is 'quite aware' of the scrutiny placed on older members, but sees herself as being at the peak of her career and has no plans to step back. In May, she announced she is seeking reelection in 2026. 'I get letters from people saying you need to quit,' Foxx said. 'My response to that is the Speaker appointed me Chair of the Rules Committee. That's sort of the peak of a career around here. And so I feel like I'm really in a good place. I don't think anybody will say I have any cognitive decline.' 'I'm physically in good shape. I had a fall in January, but that was because of a slick step,' Foxx said, referring to slipping on the marble steps outside the House chamber. 'I don't have any problems with getting around and I feel great. I work out every day, I stretch and I do those kinds of things to keep in good shape.' 'I don't see a reason to quit, as long as I can be the kind of representative my constituents deserve and want,' Foxx said. Last year, Foxx went through the same personal hardships as many of her constituents when Hurricane Helene hit North Carolina — trapping her husband in their mountain home. Foxx told her husband she planned to stay the night in Winston-Salem due to the coming hurricane and meetings in the area the next day, but he didn't expect the storm to be that bad. But Foxx, not wanting to take chances, filled up jugs of water for him – preparedness that paid off after flooding washed away some driveway to her house, trapping him for several days. 'I'm glad in many ways that it happened to us, because we were experiencing the same things that my constituents were experiencing. So when people would call me, I knew exactly what they were dealing with,' Foxx said.
The Hill
16-07-2025
- Politics
- The Hill
Cheat sheet: Nine questions for Rep. Virginia Foxx
In her 11th term in Congress, Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-N.C.) is undeniably one of the most recognizable figures in the House Republican Conference — a stature achieved not by making waves through social media or bombastic stances, but through being a workhorse and a team player. She is known for her toughness — but also has a soft side. The 82-year-old Rules Committee chair sat down with The Hill for an interview that also included some rapid-fire questions. Who is your political hero? 'Well, I will tell you that I have said that Mike Johnson should be nominated for sainthood,' Foxx said. 'And I think President Trump's being able to come back for a second term is fantastic.' Best friend in Congress? 'I don't know if I should reveal that. See, that's one of those questions where you don't know if it helps or hurts a person,' Foxx says. 'Let me answer you this way: It's interesting, because I'm a rather outspoken person, I gravitate to getting to know some of the more quiet people around here. I try to go spend time with people that I think are smarter than I am, and know things that I don't know.' Here's what one friend says: 'There's only one Virginia Foxx,' said Rep. Bruce Westerman (R-Ark.) 'I think a lot of people see sometimes a rough exterior, but she's got a huge heart inside. Very compassionate person. Cares about her job, cares about her staff and the people around her tremendously.' Westerman recalled one of his first interactions with Foxx, waiting to depart for an event, when he attended freshman orientation years ago. 'It was a few minutes past that time, and this white-haired lady stood up and told the bus driver, 'close the door and go,'' Westerman said. 'And the bus driver closed the door and left. And my wife and I were there, and my wife said, 'You better watch out for her.'' But while Foxx is all business in Washington, Westerman found a funny contrast when he once visited Foxx's home. 'You think of Virginia, this disciplinarian. Well, I go there, and this dog is bouncing over top of the couch,' Westerman said. 'He was just like, the antithesis of what you think Virginia Foxx's dog would be like.' And here's what a political adversary says: 'She's a strong chair of the committee. And from a Republican perspective, I think she's been an effective chair,' said House Rules Committee Ranking Member Jim McGovern (D-Mass.). 'In these marathon committee meetings we've had, she's constantly in the chair,' McGovern said. 'She's tough, but I mean, she's good at what she does.' Favorite food in the Capitol? 'I like to eat, but it's not top of mind for me. I drink a lot of coffee, though,' Foxx said. Is that how you got through your 22-hour Rules Committee markup from the first House passage of the 'One Big Beautiful Bill'? 'Actually, it's not. I didn't drink any coffee. I ate dark chocolate. And M&Ms,' Foxx said. The large bag of M&Ms was still in Foxx's office — she didn't eat them all. '[House Majority Leader] Steve Scalise said, 'Shall I send you some Red Bull?' And I said, 'No, chocolate.' I love chocolate, and dark chocolate especially, and so what I did was try to eat a little bit of dark chocolate.' What do you make of the populist instincts bubbling up in the Republican Party with the rise of President Trump? 'I'm right there with them. Right there with them. I love being with the people. When you are out talking to average people, they're very happy with what's going on in the country right now,' Foxx said. Do you have a favorite elevator? 'No,' Foxx said, laughing. What makes you optimistic about the future? 'We live in the greatest country in the world. If you stop and think about how this country was formed —' Foxx paused, tearing up. 'I get emotional about it, when I talk about it. Barefoot soldiers who were willing to risk their lives for freedom. We have the greatest opportunities to maintain that freedom, and we know a history. They didn't have a history. They didn't know how it was going to turn out.'
