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Yahoo
21-04-2025
- Health
- Yahoo
How to Fuel Up
Food trends are constantly changing, so can people commit to a long-term nutrition practice? Kera Nyemb-Diop says yes. She is a nutrition scientist focused on breaking down the 'rules' of what people think they should eat and focusing instead on being responsive to how our needs change over the course of a life. Co-hosts Yasmin Tayag and Natalie Brennan reconsider their own food habits and which practices are worth hanging on to for the long haul. How do you think about aging? Please leave us a voicemail (at 202-266-7701) with your name, your age, and your answers to the following questions: What aspects of aging are you nervous about? What are you looking forward to as you age? Who do you hope to be like when you are older? Is there someone in your life who has made you excited about getting older? Leaving a voicemail means that you are consenting to the possibility of The Atlantic using your audio in a future episode of How To. Listen and subscribe here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Pocket CastsNatalie Brennan: I just saw a video last week that I couldn't even tell if it was satire or not. They were freezing cottage cheese curds—freezing them—and calling it 'protein Dippin' Dots.' Yasmin Tayag: That's got to be a joke. Brennan: I mean, we can only hope! Brennan: I need to know how high cottage cheese sales are up. Could you look that up? Tayag: [Typing noises.] Okay, in the past five years, cottage cheese sales are up more than 50 percent. Brennan: Fifty percent! That is so much cottage cheese. [Laughs.] Tayag: I'm Yasmin Tayag, a staff writer with The Atlantic. Brennan: And I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at The Atlantic. Tayag: This is How to Age Up. [Music ends.] Tayag: Okay, Natalie, have you fallen for any food trends? Brennan: All of them. All of them. I've tried basically everything except for prayer. I was plant based; now I'm eating ground turkey like it's my job. I had a kombucha phase. I'm desperately worried about my gut health. And I did start buying a brand of oat milk with no seed oils, I fear. Tayag: Girl! Not the seed oils! I've been writing about them so much in my coverage of food and health at The Atlantic … all these claims that they're toxic are not backed up by the research. Brennan: I know. It's just like, if someone tells me you shouldn't have processed additives in your drink, I'm like Okay! Maybe that's why my stomach hurts! Tayag: I mean, I get it. I get the sense that a lot of people are worried that the food being sold to them is making them sick. One of the reasons food trends are so popular is because people feel bad! We feel unwell! For so many different reasons. Like, you know I had COVID recently, and I didn't even realize it because I thought feeling so terrible was my baseline. So changing what you eat seems like a really easy way to fix what's wrong with you. Which is in some ways fair—ou know, there's lots of research coming out showing that eating too much ultra-processed food, which makes up the bulk of what's sold in American grocery stores, is unhealthy in a lot of specific ways. Brennan: But it's interesting to see, now, these very real concerns co-opted politically. Right? Like I didn't imagine that criticizing ultra-processed foods could have me worrying that I was aligning myself politically with MAHA ['Make America Healthy Again'] wellness supporters. Tayag: You're right. We're at a very interesting time right now, where food and the way it's produced is being politicized. You know, with RFK Jr. [Robert F. Kennedy Jr.] as the health secretary, food is increasingly being framed in either of two ways: It's either you eat the MAHA way—which is drinking raw milk and eating beef tallow and only having 'natural' foods—or you're, like, a shill for Big Food and eat all this terrible processed stuff. Which is confusing, because I don't feel like most people fit neatly into either of those categories, and it's just not the right way to think about eating. The big problem I see is this disconnect between what people think they should be eating and what they actually need, nutritionally. And I think the popularity of food trends shows how much we've lost sight of what we actually need. Brennan: I do find when it comes to food trends, everything is very black and white. We're often told that each nutrition trend is the best way to eat, and it all seems very one-size-fits-all. And also, I constantly then feel confused, as the advice always seems like it's always changing. [Music.] Tayag: I spoke to Dr. Kera Nyemb-Diop about this. She's a nutrition scientist and coach who is really focused on breaking down the 'rules' of what people think they should eat and instead teaching them how to feed themselves over the course of a life. Kera Nyemb-Diop: Our nutritional needs evolve across the different stages of life. Our body shifts from growth to maintenance and eventually preservation. In childhood, nutrition is all about growth and development. So kids gonna need more calories, protein, key nutrients to support their rapidly growing bodies. Then during adolescence you also have growth, but you have to consider hormonal changes. And then there's adulthood, when the focus moves to maintaining health, preventing chronic conditions. And then you have older adulthood, when you have some real serious physiological changes that impact eating. Appetite can decrease; sense of taste and smell can fade. And so, it's important to consider that aspect when making food choices. Tayag: I find that the conversation around eating these days is so focused on getting more of a certain supplement or mineral or nutrient. Nyemb-Diop: I agree. Tayag: You know one that stands out to me is the obsession with getting more protein—everywhere you go, it's 'added protein'! They're even making baby food with added protein. What do you make of this? Nyemb-Diop: As a nutritionist, I think protein is important. Yes, it plays a critical role in maintaining muscle, supporting metabolism, or contributing to how satisfied we feel after meals—but then there's the marketing. So, in my opinion, this is more marketing than nutrition. And there's some exaggeration happening. Most people don't need to track every gram of protein. And I honestly feel we gave fruits and vegetables the same level of hype and attention because this is something that most Americans aren't getting enough of those. So I would say: Yes, protein is essential, but also it's a trend, and trends come with noise. Tayag: So who actually might need more protein? Nyemb-Diop: So we know that people who exercise a lot, athletes: They definitely need more protein. So depending on your exercise level—now everybody's talking about building muscle mass. So, I would say that's definitely a moment where you should be maybe more intentional about your protein intake. Also, you know, I would say pregnancy, postpartum phase, or after a surgery or an injury, may be a moment where you need to be more intentional about what you eat. The growth phase for kids and teenagers: I think it's important to be intentional. But at the same time, being intentional about eating healthy is enough. Tayag: I think people understand that, at least in theory. But it's so easy to get swept up in food trends because there are just so many! Protein, like we spoke about, probiotics, collagen, adaptogens … they become popular, then they fade out. What do you think is behind these shifts? Nyemb-Diop: With social media, there's a little bit too much information. It's a mix of, you know, companies trying to push their products and people's interest growing and, you know, a high understanding of how food can be healing, how food can actually impact our health. And I think that's the perfect environment for trends to be popular. One thing I would say—and I always say to the people I work with—is to try to disconnect from that a little bit and think about, Okay, what do you actually like? What do you enjoy eating? What seems difficult? What have you tried and wasn't possible? What do you do without thinking that is actually a good habit that you need to keep? And what do you need to work on a little? What habit do you need to implement in your life? When you think about nutrition recommendations, it's always sold as a one-size-fits-all. And I get it; you know, it's easier, because you need to give the better recommendations for the maximum amount of people. But it doesn't work this way. We have different realities, different preferences, so I think it's important to adjust. Tayag: One trend that stands out to me is plant-based eating, which generally seems good. And I've seen it intersect with the protein trend, in that plant-based protein is supposedly healthier than animal-based protein. How should we be thinking about this? Nyemb-Diop: Overall, I think that plant-based eating is a positive trend. I will not fight against this one. But I understand that it's confusing. It's something that's very positive for health. So it's something I would encourage. Tayag: Yeah, it's definitely confusing to view food in such granular terms. But that's how lots of people conceptualize it. What's one of the biggest misconceptions you hear about how to eat? Nyemb-Diop: Honestly, one of the biggest misconceptions—the first thing I'm thinking now—is that you shouldn't eat carbs. That's one of the things I hear the most. And I really breathe and try to explain to people why carbs are actually important. And you know, if you've been eating carbs most of your life, you'll be fine. So, that's one. And if you like white rice—just eat the white rice, add more veggies on the side. You know, it's more simple than we think. But I guess people need someone to remind them of that. Tayag: My parents are gonna love hearing you say that if they want to eat the white rice, they can just eat the white rice. I've been trying to get them to switch to brown rice for years. [Laughs.] Nyemb-Diop: Yes, that's a big question. I know my clients love to hear that—they just love me, when I say that you can eat the white rice, and you can add fiber in other ways. You know, it doesn't have to be through brown rice. I would say, to me, the other misconception is that you should be very focused on your calorie intake. I'm not saying your calorie intake is not important; you know, eating enough or eating too much, it needs to be addressed. But all these diets—you think they are really focused on, you know, health? My understanding is that they are really focused on appearance, looking a certain way. [Music.] Tayag: Natalie, as you know, I'm in the middle of trying to figure out a long-term healthy diet for myself after a recent cardiologist appointment … she looked at my blood work and was like, okay, something needs to change here. Brennan: I kind of miss your heart monitor. Tayag: You miss me being a cyborg? Brennan: It was kind of cute! Tayag: I do not miss it, because it's made me really conscious about the way I eat. When I was younger, the only thing I really thought about was calories. Calories are so ingrained into our food consciousness from an early age. But now, my doctor is worried about my blood pressure and my blood sugar and my cholesterol, so I'm having to think about reducing salt, switching to whole-grain bread, and even eating oatmeal for fiber … I hate oatmeal! Brennan: Actually, no one said you HAVE to eat oatmeal! Tayag: I know, and actually Dr. Nyemb-Diop is helping me rethink this new shift in eating. When she was talking about healthy ways of eating and was like, 'What do you actually like? What do you enjoy eating?' that reframed my approach to my doctor's recommendations. Brennan: Right. I think it could be really helpful to think about this as additive rather than restrictive. So, what are the foods that you enjoy? That delight you? That still fit in your doctor's recommendations, that you want to be eating more of and can fill up more of your plate, rather than making switches that you don't enjoy? Tayag: Right; like, this is a diet I'm going to have to keep up for life. It's meant to prevent chronic disease. They are in my genes. But I can't be eating oatmeal forever if I hate it. So now I'm thinking about ways I might be already getting fiber, and how I can just do more of that. I mean, I already eat a lot of beans … maybe there's just going to be more of them in my future. Brennan: I've got some good bean recipes for you. Tayag: Please send them over! Brennan: I think it is interesting: In American culture, there are two ways that people tend to embrace big changes in their eating habits. One is for personal efforts for weight loss, and the other is when a physician says they have a medical need to change their diet. We don't have a great understanding of how to embrace smaller, more gradual age-specific changes as we age up. Tayag: Right; like Dr. Nyemb-Diop mentioned that our nutritional needs change as we get older. But I've never thought about that! I never saw my parents think about that. They eat the same now as they did 30 years ago. Brennan: Yeah? Tayag: I've been doing a lot of research on this for my own personal health, and there's a study from Harvard and a few other universities that came out in March that I found to be really helpful. It looked at 30 years of data on the food habits of over 100,000 middle-aged adults. Brennan: Whoa. And what did it find? Tayag: Okay, so getting more plant-based foods, with low to moderate intake of healthy animal-based food was linked to a higher likelihood of healthy aging—which they defined as reaching age 70 without any major chronic diseases, and having good cognitive, physical, and mental health. Brennan: Okay, so backing up Dr. Nyemb-Diop's claim that plant-based … not just a trend! Tayag: Not a trend, just a healthy part of a long-term diet. But back to the Harvard study: One thing that I thought was really interesting was that the study looked at eight different healthy dietary patterns in midlife … and all of them were associated with healthy aging, which suggests there's no single best way to eat. Brennan: Okay, so healthy diets can be adapted to fit individual needs and preferences. There's no set rule book. Amazing news for you and oatmeal. [Music.] Nyemb-Diop: You are not supposed to eat the same way all your life; your tastes are gonna change. And just try to think about the way you eat as something dynamic and flexible. You're going to do your best to eat in a way that's aligned with your, you know, values and your needs, most of the time. But there's no perfect ways of eating. [Music out.] Tayag: What you're describing sounds to me a lot like intuitive eating. You know, this idea that you should eat what your body tells you rather than try to control your diet. What are your thoughts on it? Nyemb-Diop: I think it's an interesting approach. It's definitely inspiring. However, I'm not aligned on every single aspect, because I think that sometimes, depending on your circumstances, you do need to think a little bit more about how you're going to eat. I feel intuitive eating is really geared toward someone who has financial privilege, when you can afford not to really think about how you're gonna eat tomorrow, when you can afford to focus on your inner hunger and fullness without, you know—because you know you're gonna have food all the time. Tayag: I sometimes hear intuitive eating positioned as the polar opposite of traditional diets with strict limits on what and when and how much you can eat—which are still so popular. How does this show up with the people you work with? Nyemb-Diop: So my clients are serial dieters; they come from years and years, decades, of dieting and cycling between, you know, from one diet to another. So I'm very familiar with that. And I think that's … you know, I understand. When you think about it, nutrition can feel overwhelming. And so it may be difficult to navigate. And so, a diet is a structure. It feels safe. So that's why people are attracted to these diets. But, you know, I'm trying to demonstrat they can trust their intuition to nourish themself. Tayag: So how do you teach people how to adopt that approach to eating? Nyemb-Diop, I try to not see things in black and white. You know, 'You have to follow a set of rules to nourish yourself.' It's more nuances of gray. These are, you know, some principles that are true in nutrition, and then how to make this a regular part of your life without being obsessed with it. What are your struggles? So, you know, it's really personalized, I would say. But the first step is okay, when people come to me, they 'failed,' quote unquote, failed so many diets. And so they feel they are a failure. And so, the first step is showing them: They know, and they need to focus on what they need, instead of those rules that don't … that are not a good fit. Tayag: What would it look like for me, for example, to build healthy eating habits around my needs? I'm in my late 30s, and I have no time! Nyemb-Diop: Yes, we're about the same age, and I do feel that for myself as well. You probably have young kids to take care of. You have aging parents; you have a full-time job. You are very busy. So I think the first thing I'm thinking about is, you know, keeping that in mind when I provide recommendations. Sometimes I hear people say 'whole food only.' I love that, but is it actually doable? Me, when I'm thinking about that reality, I'm thinking about Let's go to what's practical: the frozen section, precut vegetables. You need to be easy. We don't have much time. So I think time management is a big part of nutrition at that age. Tayag: Frozen spinach is a must in my freezer. Nyemb-Diop: Yes; frozen spinach, being practical. But I don't think there should be a big change in the way you eat unless you have a condition that the doctor has identified. But you know, I would say, if you follow the general recommendation, you shouldn't have to worry about those details. Tayag: We're going to take a short break. But when we come back …. Brennan: Why is everyone re-talking about the Blue Zones right now? [Midroll.] Brennan: Yasmin, you know, we've been talking a lot here about not focusing on any one specific diet, right? But instead being flexible and dynamic and listening to your own food preferences. And it's funny, because I'm seeing the Blue Zones pop up again everywhere right now. Which lots of people think of as maybe the key to how to be eating healthy. But now, that idea is being challenged, right? The Atlantic just published an episode on the podcast Good On Paper about this. I'm seeing article after article. Catch us up: Why is everyone re-talking about the Blue Zones right now? Tayag: The idea of the Blue Zones has been around for over two decades now. It's based on this idea that there are these 'zones' in the world where people live to be 100 or older—like Okinawa, Japan; Sardinia, Italy; Loma Linda, California; and Ikaria in Greece. What people have really focused on is what people in these places eat—lots of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes—and the idea has turned into a whole brand that now sells Blue Zone food, cooking classes, even skin care now. But the reason why it's in the news again is because this researcher, Saul Newman, looked into data on extreme old age and argued that the Blue Zone concept is really sketchy. Like, one of his claims is that a lot of people who were said to be 100 may not actually have been that old. So it has raised some doubts about the entire concept altogether. Brennan: I mean, I watched the Netflix special, and I started eating more beans and trying to walk more. But mostly, I just felt angry that I don't live in a community where these practices being discussed were the norm. That's really the biggest takeaway, right? Like, I'm not sure I can bean my way into new approaches to urban planning and then get centennial status. Tayag: Exactly. We've focused so much on what people in these places eat—which is great, basically the Mediterranean diet—but what stands out to me is that these people, whether they're actually 100 or just very old, also live in societies that are different from the typical American. They have a lot of outdoor time; they've got lots of family around; their food is local; they have time to nap! Like, if I could nap every day, I would have a way better shot at living to 100. But that's the frustrating thing about the popularity of the Blue Zones: No matter how closely you follow the diet, it doesn't lock in the lifestyle that goes with it! [Music.] Brennan: So then: Because what we eat is one of the only things we feel like we can control, we expect it to do a lot of things for us. That's a lot of pressure to put on our food. Tayag: That reminds me of this concept that's become super popular in the nutrition space: 'food as medicine.' Which I asked Dr. Nyemb-Diop about… [Music out.] Nyemb-Diop: So, food as medicine. I think first I'd like to define what it means, because probably what you just described is the belief that eating certain food can prevent or heal diseases. And so, you know, I'm a nutritionist because I believe in the healing power of food. I do believe food can support energy, immunity, mood, and long-term health. But my issue is that food-as-medicine discourse is that it framed food as an individual problem. It focuses too much on individual responsibility, and not enough on the systems that create food environments in the first place. And so to me, sometimes it can shift that tension away from the policy change, like investing in equitable food systems, addressing structural inequalities. So yes: I support the concept, but only if it's framed as part of a broader solution that includes systemic change. Tayag: It does seem like there's a lot of pressure on the individual to make food choices for themselves, but there are important communal aspects to eating, too, right? How does that factor into how you discuss food choices with clients? Nyemb-Diop: When we talk about cooking, we immediately understand the community or the sharing aspect of cooking—you know, cooking for others. But when we talk about nutrition, it's always framed in an individualistic frame, that You have to eat this for your health. But when you actually bring the two together, you realize that, sometimes nourishing yourself, you can have support. So, it's not only you; it's your support, the support system that can help you make better choices. And you know, if I think about just kids' nutrition—my own example, you know, when you work with kids, especially toddlers, we talk a lot about picky eating. And something I've noticed, and we know kids tend to imitate their parents. And in my husband's culture, we tend to eat on a communal plate. And what I've noticed is that my kids eat much more fruit and vegetables when we eat on a communal plate, when we eat together, than when I give them a plate on their own. So these are, you know, strategies to just eat healthier. I was trained in France, where culture, community aspect, eating around the table are embedded in our understanding of nutrition. I don't think here, it is as much. But it's definitely something I would focus on. Tayag: How does it affect how you study food habits here? Is it like a superpower, where you can see exactly what's going wrong here? Nyemb-Diop: Yes. A little bit. I'm at the interface of different food cultures. And so being at the interface gives me that superpower. Not necessarily coming from outside, but just understanding that culture, and the way food connects us is so important. It gives me that superpower. I have to say, it has been a cultural shock for me when I moved to the United States a few years ago. So when it comes to, you know, finding other ways, or finding other solutions or innovating, it's definitely an asset. And to me, it's very interesting, for example, when people feel so guilty because they eat after a certain time, after 8 p.m. When, in my country where I grew up, you know, dinner's at 8:30. To me it's fascinating and very interesting, but it's one of the reasons why I love what I do. And it triggers some very interesting conversations. It's helped me think about different options when it comes to healthy eating. Tayag: You know, your handle on social media is ' Can you tell me about that choice? [Music.] Nyemb-Diop: When I moved into the United States, I moved into a majority African American area. And what happened is every time, you know, I was introducing myself saying I was a nutritionist. People were like A nutritionist? I never met a Black nutritionist. And I heard that so many times that I realized it was actually something to be a Black nutritionist. It meant something to people. I learned after that, you know, only 3 percent of dieticians and nutritionists are Black nutritionists. And of course, you know, I went through the nutrition curriculum. I always felt a little bit like an outsider. Always felt that, you know—that, let's say, focus on the Mediterranean diet was not necessarily super smart. And I always felt that way, and I saw an opportunity to say, Okay, let's build something, and let's address some of the questions that are important to us. This is actually who I am. I'm a Black woman. I love nutrition, I love food, and I have the training, and I have the cultural understanding to do something special for my community. Tayag: Well, thank you so much for this amazing chat. Nyemb-Diop: Thank you so much. Tayag: Really lovely to talk to you. [Music.] Brennan: Yas, I think this conversation has helped me think a lot about trusting my own intuition—I know what is healthy, I know what foods work for me. And there is no singular food trend or ingredient that is going to revolutionize my diet for healthy aging. Tayag: Same. Brennan: But, you know, everyone has their own relationship to food. And for me, something that has been really helpful in eliminating food guilt, or constant obsession, is thinking about food, sometimes, as an experience. Do you know the poet Frank O'Hara? Tayag: I know that you are sitting across from me in a T-shirt with Frank O'Hara's face on it! Brennan: Correct—I'm obsessed with him. Tayag: I can tell. [Laughs.] Brennan: And a big reason for that is because his poem 'Having a Coke With You' has become a kind of psalm for me. Tayag: I'm not sure I know that one. Brennan: There's a recording of him reading the poem himself, and I've listened to it so many times, that without even trying, I have the poem memorized. He begins by saying 'Having a Coke with you is even more fun than…' Is even more fun than going to San Sebastian, Irún, Hendaye, Biarritz, Bayonne / or being sick to my stomach on the Travesera de Gracia in Barcelona / partly because in your orange shirt you look like a better happier St. Sebastian / partly because of my love for you, partly because of your love for yoghurt… Brennan: And then he lists all of the things that sharing a soda with his loved one is better than. And, you know, he takes it one step further. He begins to question what good is all the research when it can't capture an experience with somebody you love. The works of the Impressionists, Futurists, Michelangelo. None of it compares. And what good does all the research of the Impressionists do them when they never got the right person to stand near the tree when the sun sank? Tayag: None of them as good as sharing a drink with someone you love. Brennan: Exactly. Tayag: Yeah; I mean, that makes sense to me. And I think it's important for us to remember that, you know, of course what we eat is important for our nutrition and our health and our lifespan. But it also matters when and where and with whom you're eating it. Brennan: Yeah. Tayag: Like, you could have the most amazing, plant-based, nutritionally adequate diet. But if you're eating it alone all the time—that's not gonna be great for you. When I think about the food memories that are most important to me, they honestly have less to do with the food than with the context, right? Brennan: Yeah. Tayag: Like my favorite food memory is from when I was, like, 7 years old. I was swimming in my cousin's outdoor pool in the Philippines with all of my little cousins, and one of the aunties had one of those grilled-cheese makers by the side of the pool, and she was just whipping out these little grilled-sardines sandwiches! And just handing them out to us fresh outta the pool. And we would be so hungry, and it was just so warm and salty. And that, to me, was the happiest food moment. Brennan: And that's a lot coming from you, a foodie. Tayag: Yeah. You know, give me the sardines on toast. Brennan: Yeah. Or you know, for me—every once in a while—a Coke. The poem has given me a lot of permission to remember that food isn't just always about its ingredients; it's also about ceremony and connection, and delighting in what is shared. It seems they were all cheated of some marvelous experience / which is not going to go wasted on me, which is why I'm telling you about it. Tayag: The marvelous experience of sharing a meal … not wasted on me either, Mr. O'Hara! Brennan: And I will tell you, and tell you, and tell you about it. [Music.] Tayag: That's all for this episode of How to Age Up. This episode was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayag, and co-hosted and produced by Natalie Brennan. Our editors are Claudine Ebeid and Jocelyn Frank. Fact-check by Ena Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smierciak. Rob also composed some of the music for this show. The executive producer of audio is Claudine Ebeid, and the managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez. Brennan: Next time on How to Age Up: While we are the most age-diverse society we've ever been, we're simultaneously the most age-segregated. Tayag: What we can learn from intergenerational partnerships, to age up together. We'll be back with you on Monday. Article originally published at The Atlantic
Atlantic
21-04-2025
- Health
- Atlantic
How to Fuel Up
Food trends are constantly changing, so can people commit to a long-term nutrition practice? Kera Nyemb-Diop says yes. She is a nutrition scientist focused on breaking down the 'rules' of what people think they should eat and focusing instead on being responsive to how our needs change over the course of a life. Co-hosts Yasmin Tayag and Natalie Brennan reconsider their own food habits and which practices are worth hanging on to for the long haul. How do you think about aging? Please leave us a voicemail (at 202-266-7701) with your name, your age, and your answers to the following questions: What aspects of aging are you nervous about? What are you looking forward to as you age? Who do you hope to be like when you are older? Is there someone in your life who has made you excited about getting older? Leaving a voicemail means that you are consenting to the possibility of The Atlantic using your audio in a future episode of How To. The following is a transcript: Natalie Brennan: I just saw a video last week that I couldn't even tell if it was satire or not. They were freezing cottage cheese curds—freezing them—and calling it ' protein Dippin' Dots.' Yasmin Tayag: That's got to be a joke. Brennan: I mean, we can only hope! Brennan: I need to know how high cottage cheese sales are up. Could you look that up? Tayag: [ Typing noises.] Okay, in the past five years, cottage cheese sales are up more than 50 percent. Brennan: Fifty percent! That is so much cottage cheese. [ Laughs.] Tayag: I'm Yasmin Tayag, a staff writer with The Atlantic. Brennan: And I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at The Atlantic. Tayag: This is How to Age Up. [ Music ends. ] Tayag: Okay, Natalie, have you fallen for any food trends? Brennan: All of them. All of them. I've tried basically everything except for prayer. I was plant based; now I'm eating ground turkey like it's my job. I had a kombucha phase. I'm desperately worried about my gut health. And I did start buying a brand of oat milk with no seed oils, I fear. Tayag: Girl! Not the seed oils! I've been writing about them so much in my coverage of food and health at The Atlantic … all these claims that they're toxic are not backed up by the research. Brennan: I know. It's just like, if someone tells me you shouldn't have processed additives in your drink, I'm like Okay! Maybe that's why my stomach hurts! Tayag: I mean, I get it. I get the sense that a lot of people are worried that the food being sold to them is making them sick. One of the reasons food trends are so popular is because people feel bad! We feel unwell! For so many different reasons. Like, you know I had COVID recently, and I didn't even realize it because I thought feeling so terrible was my baseline. So changing what you eat seems like a really easy way to fix what's wrong with you. Which is in some ways fair—ou know, there's lots of research coming out showing that eating too much ultra-processed food, which makes up the bulk of what's sold in American grocery stores, is unhealthy in a lot of specific ways. Brennan: But it's interesting to see, now, these very real concerns co-opted politically. Right? Like I didn't imagine that criticizing ultra-processed foods could have me worrying that I was aligning myself politically with MAHA ['Make America Healthy Again'] wellness supporters. Tayag: You're right. We're at a very interesting time right now, where food and the way it's produced is being politicized. You know, with RFK Jr. [Robert F. Kennedy Jr.] as the health secretary, food is increasingly being framed in either of two ways: It's either you eat the MAHA way—which is drinking raw milk and eating beef tallow and only having 'natural' foods—or you're, like, a shill for Big Food and eat all this terrible processed stuff. Which is confusing, because I don't feel like most people fit neatly into either of those categories, and it's just not the right way to think about eating. The big problem I see is this disconnect between what people think they should be eating and what they actually need, nutritionally. And I think the popularity of food trends shows how much we've lost sight of what we actually need. Brennan: I do find when it comes to food trends, everything is very black and white. We're often told that each nutrition trend is the best way to eat, and it all seems very one-size-fits-all. And also, I constantly then feel confused, as the advice always seems like it's always changing. [ Music.] Tayag: I spoke to Dr. Kera Nyemb-Diop about this. She's a nutrition scientist and coach who is really focused on breaking down the 'rules' of what people think they should eat and instead teaching them how to feed themselves over the course of a life. Kera Nyemb-Diop: Our nutritional needs evolve across the different stages of life. Our body shifts from growth to maintenance and eventually preservation. In childhood, nutrition is all about growth and development. So kids gonna need more calories, protein, key nutrients to support their rapidly growing bodies. Then during adolescence you also have growth, but you have to consider hormonal changes. And then there's adulthood, when the focus moves to maintaining health, preventing chronic conditions. And then you have older adulthood, when you have some real serious physiological changes that impact eating. Appetite can decrease; sense of taste and smell can fade. And so, it's important to consider that aspect when making food choices. Tayag: I find that the conversation around eating these days is so focused on getting more of a certain supplement or mineral or nutrient. Nyemb-Diop: I agree. Tayag: You know one that stands out to me is the obsession with getting more protein—everywhere you go, it's 'added protein'! They're even making baby food with added protein. What do you make of this? Nyemb-Diop: As a nutritionist, I think protein is important. Yes, it plays a critical role in maintaining muscle, supporting metabolism, or contributing to how satisfied we feel after meals—but then there's the marketing. So, in my opinion, this is more marketing than nutrition. And there's some exaggeration happening. Most people don't need to track every gram of protein. And I honestly feel we gave fruits and vegetables the same level of hype and attention because this is something that most Americans aren't getting enough of those. So I would say: Yes, protein is essential, but also it's a trend, and trends come with noise. Tayag: So who actually might need more protein? Nyemb-Diop: So we know that people who exercise a lot, athletes: They definitely need more protein. So depending on your exercise level—now everybody's talking about building muscle mass. So, I would say that's definitely a moment where you should be maybe more intentional about your protein intake. Also, you know, I would say pregnancy, postpartum phase, or after a surgery or an injury, may be a moment where you need to be more intentional about what you eat. The growth phase for kids and teenagers: I think it's important to be intentional. But at the same time, being intentional about eating healthy is enough. Tayag: I think people understand that, at least in theory. But it's so easy to get swept up in food trends because there are just so many! Protein, like we spoke about, probiotics, collagen, adaptogens … they become popular, then they fade out. What do you think is behind these shifts? Nyemb-Diop: With social media, there's a little bit too much information. It's a mix of, you know, companies trying to push their products and people's interest growing and, you know, a high understanding of how food can be healing, how food can actually impact our health. And I think that's the perfect environment for trends to be popular. One thing I would say—and I always say to the people I work with—is to try to disconnect from that a little bit and think about, Okay, what do you actually like? What do you enjoy eating? What seems difficult? What have you tried and wasn't possible? What do you do without thinking that is actually a good habit that you need to keep? And what do you need to work on a little? What habit do you need to implement in your life? When you think about nutrition recommendations, it's always sold as a one-size-fits-all. And I get it; you know, it's easier, because you need to give the better recommendations for the maximum amount of people. But it doesn't work this way. We have different realities, different preferences, so I think it's important to adjust. Tayag: One trend that stands out to me is plant-based eating, which generally seems good. And I've seen it intersect with the protein trend, in that plant-based protein is supposedly healthier than animal-based protein. How should we be thinking about this? Nyemb-Diop: Overall, I think that plant-based eating is a positive trend. I will not fight against this one. But I understand that it's confusing. It's something that's very positive for health. So it's something I would encourage. Tayag: Yeah, it's definitely confusing to view food in such granular terms. But that's how lots of people conceptualize it. What's one of the biggest misconceptions you hear about how to eat? Nyemb-Diop: Honestly, one of the biggest misconceptions—the first thing I'm thinking now—is that you shouldn't eat carbs. That's one of the things I hear the most. And I really breathe and try to explain to people why carbs are actually important. And you know, if you've been eating carbs most of your life, you'll be fine. So, that's one. And if you like white rice—just eat the white rice, add more veggies on the side. You know, it's more simple than we think. But I guess people need someone to remind them of that. Tayag: My parents are gonna love hearing you say that if they want to eat the white rice, they can just eat the white rice. I've been trying to get them to switch to brown rice for years. [ Laughs.] Nyemb-Diop: Yes, that's a big question. I know my clients love to hear that—they just love me, when I say that you can eat the white rice, and you can add fiber in other ways. You know, it doesn't have to be through brown rice. I would say, to me, the other misconception is that you should be very focused on your calorie intake. I'm not saying your calorie intake is not important; you know, eating enough or eating too much, it needs to be addressed. But all these diets—you think they are really focused on, you know, health? My understanding is that they are really focused on appearance, looking a certain way. [ Music.] Tayag: Natalie, as you know, I'm in the middle of trying to figure out a long-term healthy diet for myself after a recent cardiologist appointment … she looked at my blood work and was like, okay, something needs to change here. Brennan: I kind of miss your heart monitor. Tayag: You miss me being a cyborg? Brennan: It was kind of cute! Tayag: I do not miss it, because it's made me really conscious about the way I eat. When I was younger, the only thing I really thought about was calories. Calories are so ingrained into our food consciousness from an early age. But now, my doctor is worried about my blood pressure and my blood sugar and my cholesterol, so I'm having to think about reducing salt, switching to whole-grain bread, and even eating oatmeal for fiber … I hate oatmeal! Brennan: Actually, no one said you HAVE to eat oatmeal! Tayag: I know, and actually Dr. Nyemb-Diop is helping me rethink this new shift in eating. When she was talking about healthy ways of eating and was like, 'What do you actually like? What do you enjoy eating?' that reframed my approach to my doctor's recommendations. Brennan: Right. I think it could be really helpful to think about this as additive rather than restrictive. So, what are the foods that you enjoy? That delight you? That still fit in your doctor's recommendations, that you want to be eating more of and can fill up more of your plate, rather than making switches that you don't enjoy? Tayag: Right; like, this is a diet I'm going to have to keep up for life. It's meant to prevent chronic disease. They are in my genes. But I can't be eating oatmeal forever if I hate it. So now I'm thinking about ways I might be already getting fiber, and how I can just do more of that. I mean, I already eat a lot of beans … maybe there's just going to be more of them in my future. Brennan: I've got some good bean recipes for you. Tayag: Please send them over! Brennan: I think it is interesting: In American culture, there are two ways that people tend to embrace big changes in their eating habits. One is for personal efforts for weight loss, and the other is when a physician says they have a medical need to change their diet. We don't have a great understanding of how to embrace smaller, more gradual age-specific changes as we age up. Tayag: Right; like Dr. Nyemb-Diop mentioned that our nutritional needs change as we get older. But I've never thought about that! I never saw my parents think about that. They eat the same now as they did 30 years ago. Brennan: Yeah? Tayag: I've been doing a lot of research on this for my own personal health, and there's a study from Harvard and a few other universities that came out in March that I found to be really helpful. It looked at 30 years of data on the food habits of over 100,000 middle-aged adults. Brennan: Whoa. And what did it find? Tayag: Okay, so getting more plant-based foods, with low to moderate intake of healthy animal-based food was linked to a higher likelihood of healthy aging—which they defined as reaching age 70 without any major chronic diseases, and having good cognitive, physical, and mental health. Brennan: Okay, so backing up Dr. Nyemb-Diop's claim that plant-based … not just a trend! Tayag: Not a trend, just a healthy part of a long-term diet. But back to the Harvard study: One thing that I thought was really interesting was that the study looked at eight different healthy dietary patterns in midlife … and all of them were associated with healthy aging, which suggests there's no single best way to eat. Brennan: Okay, so healthy diets can be adapted to fit individual needs and preferences. There's no set rule book. Amazing news for you and oatmeal. [ Music.] Nyemb-Diop: You are not supposed to eat the same way all your life; your tastes are gonna change. And just try to think about the way you eat as something dynamic and flexible. You're going to do your best to eat in a way that's aligned with your, you know, values and your needs, most of the time. But there's no perfect ways of eating. [ Music out.] Tayag: What you're describing sounds to me a lot like intuitive eating. You know, this idea that you should eat what your body tells you rather than try to control your diet. What are your thoughts on it? Nyemb-Diop: I think it's an interesting approach. It's definitely inspiring. However, I'm not aligned on every single aspect, because I think that sometimes, depending on your circumstances, you do need to think a little bit more about how you're going to eat. I feel intuitive eating is really geared toward someone who has financial privilege, when you can afford not to really think about how you're gonna eat tomorrow, when you can afford to focus on your inner hunger and fullness without, you know—because you know you're gonna have food all the time. Tayag: I sometimes hear intuitive eating positioned as the polar opposite of traditional diets with strict limits on what and when and how much you can eat—which are still so popular. How does this show up with the people you work with? Nyemb-Diop: So my clients are serial dieters; they come from years and years, decades, of dieting and cycling between, you know, from one diet to another. So I'm very familiar with that. And I think that's … you know, I understand. When you think about it, nutrition can feel overwhelming. And so it may be difficult to navigate. And so, a diet is a structure. It feels safe. So that's why people are attracted to these diets. But, you know, I'm trying to demonstrat they can trust their intuition to nourish themself. Tayag: So how do you teach people how to adopt that approach to eating? Nyemb-Diop, I try to not see things in black and white. You know, 'You have to follow a set of rules to nourish yourself.' It's more nuances of gray. These are, you know, some principles that are true in nutrition, and then how to make this a regular part of your life without being obsessed with it. What are your struggles? So, you know, it's really personalized, I would say. But the first step is okay, when people come to me, they 'failed,' quote unquote, failed so many diets. And so they feel they are a failure. And so, the first step is showing them: They know, and they need to focus on what they need, instead of those rules that don't … that are not a good fit. Tayag: What would it look like for me, for example, to build healthy eating habits around my needs? I'm in my late 30s, and I have no time! Nyemb-Diop: Yes, we're about the same age, and I do feel that for myself as well. You probably have young kids to take care of. You have aging parents; you have a full-time job. You are very busy. So I think the first thing I'm thinking about is, you know, keeping that in mind when I provide recommendations. Sometimes I hear people say 'whole food only.' I love that, but is it actually doable? Me, when I'm thinking about that reality, I'm thinking about Let's go to what's practical: the frozen section, precut vegetables. You need to be easy. We don't have much time. So I think time management is a big part of nutrition at that age. Tayag: Frozen spinach is a must in my freezer. Nyemb-Diop: Yes; frozen spinach, being practical. But I don't think there should be a big change in the way you eat unless you have a condition that the doctor has identified. But you know, I would say, if you follow the general recommendation, you shouldn't have to worry about those details. Tayag: We're going to take a short break. But when we come back …. Brennan: Why is everyone re-talking about the Blue Zones right now? [ Midroll. ] Brennan: Yasmin, you know, we've been talking a lot here about not focusing on any one specific diet, right? But instead being flexible and dynamic and listening to your own food preferences. And it's funny, because I'm seeing the Blue Zones pop up again everywhere right now. Which lots of people think of as maybe the key to how to be eating healthy. But now, that idea is being challenged, right? The Atlantic just published an episode on the podcast Good On Paper about this. I'm seeing article after article. Catch us up: Why is everyone re-talking about the Blue Zones right now? Tayag: The idea of the Blue Zones has been around for over two decades now. It's based on this idea that there are these 'zones' in the world where people live to be 100 or older—like Okinawa, Japan; Sardinia, Italy; Loma Linda, California; and Ikaria in Greece. What people have really focused on is what people in these places eat —lots of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes—and the idea has turned into a whole brand that now sells Blue Zone food, cooking classes, even skin care now. But the reason why it's in the news again is because this researcher, Saul Newman, looked into data on extreme old age and argued that the Blue Zone concept is really sketchy. Like, one of his claims is that a lot of people who were said to be 100 may not actually have been that old. So it has raised some doubts about the entire concept altogether. Brennan: I mean, I watched the Netflix special, and I started eating more beans and trying to walk more. But mostly, I just felt angry that I don't live in a community where these practices being discussed were the norm. That's really the biggest takeaway, right? Like, I'm not sure I can bean my way into new approaches to urban planning and then get centennial status. Tayag: Exactly. We've focused so much on what people in these places eat—which is great, basically the Mediterranean diet —but what stands out to me is that these people, whether they're actually 100 or just very old, also live in societies that are different from the typical American. They have a lot of outdoor time; they've got lots of family around; their food is local; they have time to nap! Like, if I could nap every day, I would have a way better shot at living to 100. But that's the frustrating thing about the popularity of the Blue Zones: No matter how closely you follow the diet, it doesn't lock in the lifestyle that goes with it! [ Music. ] Brennan: So then: Because what we eat is one of the only things we feel like we can control, we expect it to do a lot of things for us. That's a lot of pressure to put on our food. Tayag: That reminds me of this concept that's become super popular in the nutrition space: 'food as medicine.' Which I asked Dr. Nyemb-Diop about… [ Music out. ] Nyemb-Diop: So, food as medicine. I think first I'd like to define what it means, because probably what you just described is the belief that eating certain food can prevent or heal diseases. And so, you know, I'm a nutritionist because I believe in the healing power of food. I do believe food can support energy, immunity, mood, and long-term health. But my issue is that food-as-medicine discourse is that it framed food as an individual problem. It focuses too much on individual responsibility, and not enough on the systems that create food environments in the first place. And so to me, sometimes it can shift that tension away from the policy change, like investing in equitable food systems, addressing structural inequalities. So yes: I support the concept, but only if it's framed as part of a broader solution that includes systemic change. Tayag: It does seem like there's a lot of pressure on the individual to make food choices for themselves, but there are important communal aspects to eating, too, right? How does that factor into how you discuss food choices with clients? Nyemb-Diop: When we talk about cooking, we immediately understand the community or the sharing aspect of cooking—you know, cooking for others. But when we talk about nutrition, it's always framed in an individualistic frame, that You have to eat this for your health. But when you actually bring the two together, you realize that, sometimes nourishing yourself, you can have support. So, it's not only you; it's your support, the support system that can help you make better choices. And you know, if I think about just kids' nutrition—my own example, you know, when you work with kids, especially toddlers, we talk a lot about picky eating. And something I've noticed, and we know kids tend to imitate their parents. And in my husband's culture, we tend to eat on a communal plate. And what I've noticed is that my kids eat much more fruit and vegetables when we eat on a communal plate, when we eat together, than when I give them a plate on their own. So these are, you know, strategies to just eat healthier. I was trained in France, where culture, community aspect, eating around the table are embedded in our understanding of nutrition. I don't think here, it is as much. But it's definitely something I would focus on. Tayag: How does it affect how you study food habits here? Is it like a superpower, where you can see exactly what's going wrong here? Nyemb-Diop: Yes. A little bit. I'm at the interface of different food cultures. And so being at the interface gives me that superpower. Not necessarily coming from outside, but just understanding that culture, and the way food connects us is so important. It gives me that superpower. I have to say, it has been a cultural shock for me when I moved to the United States a few years ago. So when it comes to, you know, finding other ways, or finding other solutions or innovating, it's definitely an asset. And to me, it's very interesting, for example, when people feel so guilty because they eat after a certain time, after 8 p.m. When, in my country where I grew up, you know, dinner's at 8:30. To me it's fascinating and very interesting, but it's one of the reasons why I love what I do. And it triggers some very interesting conversations. It's helped me think about different options when it comes to healthy eating. Tayag: You know, your handle on social media is ' Can you tell me about that choice? [ Music. ] Nyemb-Diop: When I moved into the United States, I moved into a majority African American area. And what happened is every time, you know, I was introducing myself saying I was a nutritionist. People were like A nutritionist? I never met a Black nutritionist. And I heard that so many times that I realized it was actually something to be a Black nutritionist. It meant something to people. I learned after that, you know, only 3 percent of dieticians and nutritionists are Black nutritionists. And of course, you know, I went through the nutrition curriculum. I always felt a little bit like an outsider. Always felt that, you know—that, let's say, focus on the Mediterranean diet was not necessarily super smart. And I always felt that way, and I saw an opportunity to say, Okay, let's build something, and let's address some of the questions that are important to us. This is actually who I am. I'm a Black woman. I love nutrition, I love food, and I have the training, and I have the cultural understanding to do something special for my community. Tayag: Well, thank you so much for this amazing chat. Nyemb-Diop: Thank you so much. Tayag: Really lovely to talk to you. [ Music. ] Brennan: Yas, I think this conversation has helped me think a lot about trusting my own intuition—I know what is healthy, I know what foods work for me. And there is no singular food trend or ingredient that is going to revolutionize my diet for healthy aging. Tayag: Same. Brennan: But, you know, everyone has their own relationship to food. And for me, something that has been really helpful in eliminating food guilt, or constant obsession, is thinking about food, sometimes, as an experience. Do you know the poet Frank O'Hara? Tayag: I know that you are sitting across from me in a T-shirt with Frank O'Hara's face on it! Brennan: Correct—I'm obsessed with him. Tayag: I can tell. [ Laughs.] Brennan: And a big reason for that is because his poem 'Having a Coke With You' has become a kind of psalm for me. Tayag: I'm not sure I know that one. Brennan: There's a recording of him reading the poem himself, and I've listened to it so many times, that without even trying, I have the poem memorized. He begins by saying 'Having a Coke with you is even more fun than…' Frank O'Hara: Is even more fun than going to San Sebastian, Irún, Hendaye, Biarritz, Bayonne / or being sick to my stomach on the Travesera de Gracia in Barcelona / partly because in your orange shirt you look like a better happier St. Sebastian / partly because of my love for you, partly because of your love for yoghurt… Brennan: And then he lists all of the things that sharing a soda with his loved one is better than. And, you know, he takes it one step further. He begins to question what good is all the research when it can't capture an experience with somebody you love. The works of the Impressionists, Futurists, Michelangelo. None of it compares. Tayag: None of them as good as sharing a drink with someone you love. Brennan: Exactly. Tayag: Yeah; I mean, that makes sense to me. And I think it's important for us to remember that, you know, of course what we eat is important for our nutrition and our health and our lifespan. But it also matters when and where and with whom you're eating it. Brennan: Yeah. Tayag: Like, you could have the most amazing, plant-based, nutritionally adequate diet. But if you're eating it alone all the time—that's not gonna be great for you. When I think about the food memories that are most important to me, they honestly have less to do with the food than with the context, right? Brennan: Yeah. Tayag: Like my favorite food memory is from when I was, like, 7 years old. I was swimming in my cousin's outdoor pool in the Philippines with all of my little cousins, and one of the aunties had one of those grilled-cheese makers by the side of the pool, and she was just whipping out these little grilled-sardines sandwiches! And just handing them out to us fresh outta the pool. And we would be so hungry, and it was just so warm and salty. And that, to me, was the happiest food moment. Brennan: And that's a lot coming from you, a foodie. Tayag: Yeah. You know, give me the sardines on toast. Brennan: Yeah. Or you know, for me—every once in a while—a Coke. The poem has given me a lot of permission to remember that food isn't just always about its ingredients; it's also about ceremony and connection, and delighting in what is shared. O'Hara: It seems they were all cheated of some marvelous experience / which is not going to go wasted on me, which is why I'm telling you about it. Tayag: The marvelous experience of sharing a meal … not wasted on me either, Mr. O'Hara! Brennan: And I will tell you, and tell you, and tell you about it. [ Music.] Tayag: That's all for this episode of How to Age Up. This episode was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayag, and co-hosted and produced by Natalie Brennan. Our editors are Claudine Ebeid and Jocelyn Frank. Fact-check by Ena Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smierciak. Rob also composed some of the music for this show. The executive producer of audio is Claudine Ebeid, and the managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez.
Atlantic
14-04-2025
- Health
- Atlantic
How to Wish You Were 66 Instead of 35
We don't often talk about the benefits of aging. Karen Adams has a different perspective. From new beginnings to menopausal zest, the director of the Stanford Program in Menopause & Healthy Aging discusses what women can look forward to as they age up. How do you think about aging? Please leave us a voicemail (at 202-266-7701) with your name, your age, and your answers to the following questions: What aspects of aging are you nervous about? What are you looking forward to as you age? Who do you hope to be like when you are older? Is there someone in your life who has made you excited about getting older? Leaving a voicemail means that you are consenting to the possibility of The Atlantic using your audio in a future episode of How To. The following is a transcript: Natalie Brennan: Well, I guess I'm thinking about it because I just turned 29. And that's a— [ Music.] Yasmin Tayag: A perfect age. Brennan: A perfect age. My friends keep doing this bit that no matter how old I turn, they keep saying a perfect age for a woman, so it was like 27, the perfect age for a woman, and then I turned 28, the perfect age. Now once again, somehow I've turned the perfect age for a woman. But I always remember thinking like, 28, for some reason, really stood out to me as the time that I thought I, like, thought a lot of my life would be together. And now that I'm past that age, it's so funny to me to think that I thought that everything would magically be figured out at that time. But I find myself now just being like, 34. Tayag: [ Laughs.] Brennan: It's gonna work out for me by 34. Which I know, then I'm gonna turn 34 and laugh at that and be like, what I thought was 34 is actually 42. Tayag: Well, I'm 37, and it's, it's funny—when I was a kid, I thought 37, you know, like my parents, I would have it all together. I don't know what I'm doing. Brennan: We're still just us at every single age. It's just going to be me at every age. Tayag: Yeah, but there's something comforting in that. To think that like, Oh, nobody really has it together at any age! They're all—everyone's just figuring it out as they go along. Tayag: I'm Yasmin Tayag, a staff writer with The Atlantic. Brennan: And I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at The Atlantic. Tayag: This is How to Age Up. [ Music.] Brennan: I'm very aware of the fact that 20s, 30s aren't the typical zone that people think of when they think of aging. [ Laughs. ] But we are all always aging, right? Tayag: We're always aging. Brennan: And at different life stages, some of us are thinking about it more than others. Like there's this big cultural hype around turning 30, and you know, I'm a girl who spends a lot of time on the internet. And let me just say: The internet is not usually a space that promotes positive ideas of aging for young women. Tayag: Really? Brennan: Yeah, I don't know if you've heard. I'm reporting it live. But I mean, I'm thinking about even last year, the fashion trends revolved around bows; everything leaned very coquette in aesthetic. That in some ways … does promote an infantilization of women. Tayag: I totally agree, but I do actually think there's been a recent shift happening in terms of how we think about aging. You know, I wasn't excited about my 30s when I was growing up. Everyone I admired in pop culture was in their early 20s, max. And now, we're seeing celebrities who rose to fame in their 20s become even more sexy and powerful as they turn 30 or 40 or 50, like Chloë Sevigny, Alexa Chung, even Beyoncé — they're just owning their age, and they're modeling that getting older can still be sexy and powerful. Brennan: Extremely. Tayag: When I turned 30, the big thing I noticed was that, like, Oh, I like myself more. I'm more comfortable in my skin. [ Music.] Brennan: And I'm really grateful that in my personal life, I have so many amazing models of, yeah, people in my life who are in their 30s. Who just, yeah, seem to be more confident and more sure of themselves. Tayag: I hope I'm one of those people. Brennan: One thousand percent one of those people. Tayag: Natalie, you know, as I'm approaching my 40s I've been thinking a lot about how I'm about to enter a new stage of life. So I can help you through 20s and 30s—but I'm looking for someone to help me through my 40s, and my 50s, and beyond! Brennan: And does that feel exciting, or does it feel scary? Tayag: Well, I'm hoping to go into it with a positive mindset! Especially the perimenopause of it all. And someone, for me, who has really reframed what getting older can look like is Dr. Karen Adams. Dr. Adams is an ob-gyn, and she's the director of the Stanford Program in Menopause & Healthy Aging. [ Music.] Tayag: Dr. Adams, tell me how you describe your profession to someone at a cocktail party. Karen Adams: Well, I used to say that I deliver babies, but I don't do that anymore. And actually people are much more interested when I tell them that I was recruited about two years ago to create and lead a program in menopause and healthy aging. And people's eyes light up. I mean, everyone wants to age in a healthy way. And of course, you'd have to be living under a rock to not know that menopause is having not even a moment—it's a movement. People are very interested in perimenopause and menopause. Before I went to Stanford, I was in charge of training all of the OB-GYN residents at Oregon Health and Science University. And one of the requirements for the training was that they get trained in care of what was called then older women. And they were coming out of training really well, well-versed in delivering babies and operating and contraception and all these different things, but they actually weren't learning how to take care of women over 40. And so I established this clinic that we called the 'Over-40 Clinic'; I'm doing air quotes now. Now we know menopause can happen really at almost any age, through premature ovarian failure or insufficiency or early menopause. So it isn't really age dependent. It's been 20–25 years ago that I established that clinic, and it just became more and more my clinical focus. Tayag: It's shocking to hear how little focus there was in medical schools on menopause. And, like, if there's a knowledge deficit in doctors, it must be even greater culturally, just with the general public. Adams: It's one of the huge issues right now. That people with ovaries—not everyone identifies as a woman, but I'll use that term as we're talking, simply because that's what the terms are in the research and such have been used—but right, you know, that women are becoming much more educated about this sometimes than their providers are. There was a lot of fear around being on hormones 20 years ago because this big study came out and said, Wow, it increases the risk of heart attack and stroke and blood clots and breast cancer and all these thing s. And people freaked out, and everybody went off their hormones—and we're still working to undo those messages. And medical students, residents, people who were in training for about 15 years didn't get taught about hormones or menopause, so there is some catching up to do. Tayag: Okay, so I want to come back to the specifics of the Women's Health Initiative study on hormone therapy. But first I'm hoping to talk to you more about the misconceptions about menopause on the whole that you're hearing these days? Adams: Oh, probably most often that it is the end of something. And that people feel mournful about the process, and they feel like it means their best years are behind them. And the reality is, there is a thing called menopausal zest. And it is a real thing. And I'm here to tell you that your mother and your grandmother are pretty much having a good time. It's the transition that's hard. You know, perimenopause is hard, because you're going through a lot of changes, and what is your normal is now different. And so that transition is challenging. But oh my goodness—once you get through it, women rate that they are happier at their work, in their relationships, with their partners, in their overall well-being, their feeling of knowing who they are and being comfortable with that. You know, what's funny is: Do you know the decade of life when people are the most unhappy? What age would you think that would be? Tayag: Fifties? Adams: Twenties. Tayag: Wow. Adams: Twenties. Teens and 20s. And then people get happier in their 30s and kind of early 40s, and then there's kind of a little dip—late 40s to mid-50s, people kind of are struggling a little bit—and then people just get happier and happier. Sixties, people are happier; 70s, people are even happier. So, you know, as long as you've made the kind of choices that you want to make to really age in a healthy way. Now certainly, some of it is our genetics. Some of it, we have to play the cards we're dealt. But our lifestyle choices have so much impact on how healthy we are in our 70s and 80s. And there's a real correlation between our health with our overall happiness and well-being. Tayag: I mean, I'm in my late 30s, and I'm starting to come across quite a bit of menopause content on social media. But a lot of it still seems to focus on the negative stuff. Hot flushes and mood swings will happen. Brain fog, sleep challenges, anxiety. And, you know, that's the stuff people hear, and that gets all the attention. But what I would love to hear from you is: What is good about menopause that we're missing? Adams: It's really, really a part of the story that deserves a little more attention—that it really is so wonderful in so many ways. And menopause literally is one day in your life. It's that day when you have not had a period for a year. And then, for the whole rest of your life, you are postmenopausal. But that doesn't happen like flipping a light switch, right? It's not like you just have your periods every month, and then all of a sudden they stop. So there's this period of time called the perimenopause, which is where things are changing, and your periods become less predictable and less regular. And then you begin to space them out, and then you start getting some symptoms. And eventually you've had no period for a year. When your periods go away, all the symptoms associated with your periods go away. So, buh-bye PMS, buh-bye pelvic pain or cramping; some people get menstrual migraines. Endometriosis is another example of a condition that is very cyclic and very related to your monthly cycles. Once your periods are gone, those tend to go away. So that's a huge benefit that we don't talk about very much. You know, because your periods have gone away, you're not worried about getting pregnant, and people's sex lives often improve because they're just—they just enjoy that freedom. Maybe you end up not needing to think about your diaphragm or your cervical cap, counting your cycles if you're doing natural family planning. It's just freeing to not be thinking so much about contraception. Tayag: So is it just that the symptoms of menstruation suddenly lift, and that's what leads to the menopausal zest? Or is there something more that's gained? Adams: It's just a time in a woman's life when there's some just stepping into your power: that sense of I know who I am. And I really had a lot of the experiences and life learnings that got me to this point. And hey, you know, I've got half of my life still ahead of me. What am I gonna do with it now? My kids are almost raised; they're in college. It's great. You know, I can have sex in the kitchen if I want to—which is what one of my friends said when I said, 'Well, your last kid's going to college. What are you gonna do?' And she said, 'Have sex in the kitchen.' Tayag: Amazing. Adams: And that is menopausal zest. Tayag: Hey, go wild. Adams: Why not, right? Sex is supposed to be adult play. It's supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be a burden. You're not supposed to feel guilty that you're a crummy partner and you wish you wanted it and you don't. Sex is for us, as our own well-being. You release endorphins. You feel happier. Pain becomes less intense. It's a great way to manage pain. I talk to my patients about embracing themselves as a sexual being and trying to get back in touch with what I call your erotica menu. Everyone has an erotica menu of things they like, right? Some people like porn. Some people like a back rub. Some people like erotic literature. My point when I talk about that with my patients is: Remember who you are, remember what you like, and stop thinking so much about what you wish you were giving to your partner. Instead, ask for what you want. Think about what works for you. Now, I'm not at all saying that someone can't have menopausal zest and have a thrilling, wonderful second half of your life and not be sexually active. That's fine. Some people are fine not having sex. I'm not worried about anyone's sex life unless it's an issue for them. But the majority of my patients over age 70 are sexually active, and they are having sex with no difficulty, no pain, no problems. Tayag: That's so incredible. Adams: Mm-hmm. [ Music.] Brennan: Yasmin, I've been thinking a lot about how our beliefs about aging are often tangled up with our beliefs about appearance. Tayag: I can say for myself—those two things feel pretty intertwined. Brennan: And for me, too. And you know, we don't talk that much culturally about sex in older age maybe because we are just inundated with this problematic idea that, as you age, your sexual importance decreases. Like: I'm even thinking about how beauty products are literally being marketed as 'anti-aging,' which perpetuates this false dichotomy between aging and desirability. Like you must not age so you can stay … desirable. Tayag: Right. I mean, the messaging right now is: How can you freeze your body in place for as long as possible to keep looking the same age forever? It reminds me of this story I wrote for The Atlantic about baby Botox. Brennan: Which, to clarify, is not babies getting Botox, but refers to the amount of Botox that people are getting, which is a baby dose. Tayag: Yes. Like, baby Botox is this idea that you start getting small doses of Botox early on, when you're very young and don't have any wrinkles, and you can kind of freeze yourself in place. When I was in college, my side gig was working in a doctor's office who did Botox. And I would see all of these moms come in with their teenage daughters in tow. The idea is that if you never move the muscles that give you wrinkles, you'll never get the wrinkles. Brennan: Right. Tayag: I wrote about this last year, and apparently the number of 20-somethings who got Botox or other injectables jumped 71 percent from 2019 to 2022. Brennan: That is a huge jump. Tayag: Yeah. And full stop—if it works for you, amazing. That's your choice. But this conversation with Dr. Adams has had me thinking that when we try to freeze our bodies or faces or what have you in a particular period of time, what benefits are we missing out on? You know, are there benefits to looking older? I remember being in my 20s starting out in my first job, and, you know, just kind of being dismissed for looking so young and naive. I remember once an older man told me that he, like, looked at me and said, 'One day when your face has more gravitas, you'd make an excellent news anchor.' Brennan: What? Tayag: Looking back, it was a weird thing to say. I wasn't offended at the time—I had taken it as a compliment, he was saying that I was pretty enough to be in front of the camera someday. But now I can see how he also suggested I didn't look serious enough to deliver news, because I was pretty and young. Brennan: I … hate that. And unfortunately—I think so many of us can relate to that, right? This sense that if you're young and attractive, you can't be a serious person. But once you become older and serious-looking, there's a flip side, that you aren't seen as attractive. And, of course, it can be very gendered—young men aren't dismissed as easily. Tayag: Nope. Brennan: And I think it comes from women largely being seen as sexual objects, until they're not. Tayag: Right. On some level, I imagine it would be liberating to reach an age where we aren't being evaluated primarily for our looks. Brennan: But I don't know. It feels like you're either too sexualized, or you're not seen as a sexual being. I think both can feel really loaded. Tayag: Totally. And that tension is something that Dr. Adams and I spoke a lot about. [ Music.] Adams: It's so funny, right? We're either too young, or we're too old. If we have been valued for our appearance and our external attributes, it can be really challenging to age and to find that part of ourselves changing. And I think we have to avoid internalizing those messages; it's the work of a lifetime. And I remember being a young OB-GYN surgeon, and I went into the holding area to meet my patient that morning to see her, because we were getting ready to do her hysterectomy. And I met her husband for the first time, and we talked. And I said, 'Okay, this is what's going to happen. Do you have any more questions before we go back?' And he said, 'Yes. When are we going to meet the surgeon?' And I said, 'That would be me.' And he said, 'You, you're going to do the surgery?' And I said, 'Yes.' And his wife was so embarrassed. She was like, 'Oh, my gosh, I told you.' Now, I like looking older because people think I know more, right? 'Cause I'm a doctor. So it's like, you want your doctor to be experienced, and all of that. But boy, if I were an actress or if I were something where it's all about your physical appearance, that would be tough. But, I think all of the messages that we get have to be shifted a little bit. We should be working out to be strong, not to be thin. And focus on how the choices that you make will promote your physical and emotional well-being. And if we're lucky, we have parents that teach us to listen to ourselves and trust ourselves. And we learned that from an early age. I think we're teaching people more to trust themselves. And it'll be interesting to see how that changes the experience of aging for your kids, you know, because I think people are much more aware of the importance of that than we used to be. Tayag: After the break: Menopausal zest sounds awesome, but what about the symptoms so many women struggle with during the transition? [ Music.] Tayag: Dr. Adams, we've talked a lot about the benefits of menopausal zest, but I'm curious about the transition through. It is a transition, right? Adams: Oh, absolutely. It's really unmistakable, because it's physical. You know, there are physical changes happening. And so sometimes we go through emotional changes and transitions, but boy, menopause is a physical one. It is something that ushers in this new era of your life. But I think that one of the keys for menopausal quality of life is having good health care, so that you're not suffering with hot flushes, night sweats, sleep disturbance, mood disturbance, joint pain, brain fog, vaginal dryness. And that's one of my huge missions at Stanford, in our Program in Menopause & Healthy Aging, is teaching other providers how to take care of these folks, because a lot of people were not trained. Women deserve high-quality health care, and the state of the current situation is shameful. We can't blame people for not knowing things they were not taught. But it behooves those of us who do have that expertise to share it. And one of the best resources is through an organization called the Menopause Society, which is an organization that certifies menopause experts. So you can go on their website and put in your zip code, and a whole bunch of providers who have been certified in menopause will come up. And you can find someone in your area who can help you get through this, because this is not something you want to do without a road map. You need a road map. Tayag: Okay, so what does that road map actually look like? What are some practical things people can do to manage what they are going through? Adams: Right, right, right. Well, I can take people's hot flushes and night sweats away in about three weeks with some estrogen. So if that, if it's related to menopause, it's highly, highly, highly treatable. And the only people who shouldn't take estrogen are people who themselves have had a heart attack or a stroke, people who've had breast cancer with certain types of hormone receptors, possibly people who've had a blood clot in their leg or their lung or their brain, some types of hormone-sensitive cancers. But most people can be on hormone therapy, and that's estrogen—and if you have a uterus, you're on progesterone as well. Night sweats are part of the reason that people have difficulty with sleeping, but some of it is because of anxieties. And so we talk to our patients about some techniques for mindfulness, for mindful breathing, some different things to help you get out of your head and be able to get back to sleep. There's a thing called cognitive behavior therapy that is the most beneficial for sleep disturbance and mood disturbance in menopause. And it can also decrease the bother of hot flushes. Everyone should do it. It is such a powerful tool for dealing with all the stresses of life. And so that's something I talk to all my menopausal patients about—is find some cognitive behavior therapy resources. It will really, really help. Tayag: Okay, so I want to go back to hormone therapy, because there's still a lot of misunderstanding about what it can do and the risks involved. So what happened with the Women's Health Initiative study, and what does it mean for the number of women on hormone treatment today? Adams: So less than 2 percent of people who are candidates for hormone therapy are actually on hormone therapy. Which is so awful. The Women's Health Initiative was the biggest trial in women's health, at that time, and I believe to date it was 165,000 women. And it's not that it was a bad study or that it was harmful. What the Women's Health Initiative did was, they enrolled people between the ages of 50 and 79 and started them all on hormones. They had not been on hormones before. And lo and behold, what we found is the people over 70 were the ones who had heart attacks, strokes, blood clots, etc. And the people between the ages of 50 and 60 actually had benefits. And now we have 20 years of follow-up data, and we found that those people have not died of heart disease more than people who were not on hormones, nor have we had increased numbers of deaths of breast cancer. So that is the part of the message that we really have to be clear on. When you're under 60 and you don't have any of those absolute contraindications, it's really a window of opportunity. And the risk of breast cancer with it is like eight extra cases per 10,000 women; the risk of breast cancer is greater with a sedentary lifestyle or alcohol intake more than one glass of wine a night, or being obese. And people worry so much about hormones when they don't even think about the fact that they're sedentary and they're overweight. Those are much bigger risks for breast cancer. So we do talk to folks now if they're under age 60 or less than 10 years out from menopause: They're going to get tremendous benefits being on hormones. And we're working hard to get that message out. Tayag: Are you worried at all that as people realize hormone therapy could be safe for them that there's a risk that it starts to be seen as a cure-all? We see that so often in the wellness space. Adams: We recognize we have so much control over our health, and that rather than looking for the answer in a supplement or some pill that you take—although there are certainly value, values to taking pills, and I'm not saying there isn't value to that—but when people come to me, and they say, 'If I go on hormones, will I prevent dementia? My mother had dementia. I don't want it. If I go on hormones, will it prevent me from getting dementia?' I say, 'We don't really know.' We know there's some benefit in the brain when people are on hormones. But we do know what decreases the risk of dementia. And it is: Don't smoke, minimize your alcohol intake, exercise, eat mostly plants. Manage any chronic health conditions you have, like high blood pressure, diabetes, things like that. And stay connected to your family and friends and your community. Brennan: Yas, you know, it's really amazing to hear this conversation about women embracing rather than defying aging, because so much of what we hear about right now in the longevity space is focused on trying to eradicate aging all together. And I do wonder if there is something about a very physical transition like menopause that almost forces women to reckon with aging—like, you can't ignore what's happening to your body when it hits you all at once. It's not something you can compartmentalize or ration yourself out of. It's a part of your everyday. And maybe people who don't go through such a sudden shift miss out on that. Tayag: Yeah, I mean, men go through changes too, as they age. They experience things like a lack of energy, weight gain, sleep problems, sexual issues. And there's been some effort to classify these changes as menopause. The male version of menopause. But there's a lot of pushback on this idea, because it's just not the same thing. What men go through isn't caused by a sudden shift in hormone levels that leads to huge transformations in their bodies. It's not like their testosterone suddenly nose-dives the way estrogen does. It decreases a little, but very gradually over a long period of time. So, there may not be a moment or a life period that marks or reinforces aging in the same visceral way. Brennan: Right. I mean, I cannot see 'manopause' going over very well right now in the current cultural zeitgeist. But, regardless, I think one thing that might be important to remember right now is all of these internalized ideas that Dr. Adams has been talking about in regards to aging: They affect all of us. People of all genders. So recognizing them, unpacking them, working through them—that's more of a call to everyone. [ Music.] Tayag: You know, throughout this conversation, I couldn't help but notice you've said 'we know now' so many times—which is amazing, because it means 'Yes, we know now, menopause can be awesome.' So why are we so stuck on this narrative? Adams: Why are we? And I have to tell you, I would rather be 66 as I am now than pregnant. No question. No question. I wouldn't be 35 again for anything. You're trying to figure out your career. You're trying to figure out your partner. You're trying to figure out where you're going to live. You're trying to figure out—are you going to have kids? Where are you going to raise them? What are you going to do? There's so much going on in our 20s and 30s that is challenging and hard, and physically we're not getting much sleep, and we're trying to progress in our careers and all of that. It's challenging. And so much of that is resolved when you're in your 50s and 60s. It's so great. It's so great. Tayag: Dr. Adams, thank you for the absolutely enlightening conversation. I am excited to enter my next decade in a way that I wasn't before we talked. So thank you. Adams: I'm so glad. I'm so glad. Come on in. The water is fine. Tayag: Natalie, as you know, I just adored this conversation with Dr. Adams. Brennan: We are two huge fans. Tayag: And, you know, a thing I've been thinking a lot about is that, intellectually, I understand the benefits of aging. I get that it can be great in all these ways. But emotionally, it's hard to undo all those assumptions. And I find it hard to trust that I, too, am going to feel as awesome as she does at that age. Brennan: Yeah; I really can relate to that. But we can't know how we are going to feel in this life stage that we're not in yet. What we do know is that we have this testimony and affirmation from older women who do know, and I do find that really comforting. Tayag: Right. Brennan: You know, there's this poem by Mary Ruefle that this conversation really reminds me of in this way of acknowledging from where you and I are at right now. We can't even yet really understand where we're gonna land, because we haven't gone through it yet. And maybe that persists throughout your life. I remember sending the poem to my mom around the time she was going through menopause, and we both really love it and keep coming back to it. Tayag: Hmm, that's really sweet. Brennan: And, you know, maybe it could be another point of reference for you too. I'm going to read you the end of this poem. Tayag: I'm going to cry. [ Laughs. ] Brennan: If you are young and you are reading this, perhaps you will understand the gleam in the eye of any woman who is sixty, seventy, eighty, or ninety: they cannot take you seriously (sorry) for you are just a girl to them, despite your babies and shoes and lovemaking and all of that. You are just a girl playing at life. You're just a girl on the edge of a great forest. You should be frightened but instead you are eating a lovely meal, you are cooking one, or you are running to the florist, or you are opening a box of flowers that has just arrived at your door, and none of these things are done in the great spirit that they will later be done in. You haven't even begun. You must pause first, the way one must pause before a great endeavor, if only to take a good breath. Happy old age is coming on bare feet. Bringing with it grace and gentle words and ways which grim youth have never known. [ Music. ] Tayag: That's all for this episode of How to Age Up. This episode was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayag, and co-hosted and produced by Natalie Brennan. Our editors are Claudine Ebeid and Jocelyn Frank. Fact-check by Ena Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smierciak. Rob also composed some of the music for this show. The executive producer of audio is Claudine Ebeid, and the managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez.
Yahoo
07-04-2025
- Health
- Yahoo
How to Defy Death
Humans have always tried to prolong life and battle mortality, but what do the current influx of biohackers reveal about this era of individual responsibility? Timothy Caulfield, a professor and the research director at the Health Law Institute at the University of Alberta, studies how health and science are represented in the public sphere. The lines between wellness culture, longevity, and biohacking are beginning to blur, and Caulfield offers advice about how to dodge misinformation and unproven theories while still pursuing a long and meaningful life. How do you think about aging? Please leave us a voicemail (202-266-7701) with your name, your age, and answers to the following questions: What aspects of aging are you nervous about? What are you looking forward to as you age? Who do you hope to be like when you are older? Is there someone in your life who has made you excited to get older? Leaving a voicemail means that you are consenting to the possibility of The Atlantic using your audio in a future episode of How To. Listen and subscribe here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Pocket CastsNatalie Brennan: Do you want to live forever? [Music.] Yasmin Tayag: Hell no. Absolutely not. Of course I want to live, like, a long and healthy and happy life. I would love to live to, like, 90. You know, enjoy the time with my family and friends. But, like, thinking about how tired I am now at 37, I'm like—can you imagine how exhausted you'd be at 100, 150? Brennan: I don't want to live forever, but I'm really scared of death. I mean, it's kind of the one thing we really don't know anything about, right? And I feel like I want to get to the bottom of everything. I want the answers. And that's one we don't get answers about. Tayag: Maybe that's why we're so tired. Brennan: Exhausted. I'm exhausted. Tayag: I'm Yasmin Tayag, a staff writer with The Atlantic. Brennan: And I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at The Atlantic. Tasmin: This is How to Age Up. [Music.] Brennan: Yasmin, you've been reporting on science, health, culture, for the last, what—decade? Tayag: It's been a decade. Brennan: From your perspective, does this current moment of longevity culture feel different to you, or is this just, you know, humans have always been obsessed with figuring out how to defy death? Tayag: I would say that we could look at any decade, even any century, and see that there were health trends that were prominent. In the 1700s, people were doing bloodletting: literally cutting open a vein to let a couple ounces of blood out. Because they thought that's how you would get rid of illness in the body and be healthier. And 200 years later, John Harvey Kellogg, the cereal guy—he was basically, like, the TikTok wellness influencer of the time, and he was promoting things like electric-light bathing. Brennan: What's that? Tayag: It's lying in a box surrounded by lights. And he said this would cure basically any ailment. Brennan: I'd give it a try. [Laughter.] Tayag: Kellogg also pushed things like three-gallon enemas. Brennan: Whoa. Tayag: Because he was very into the idea of cleansing your insides and outsides to be healthy. And people loved this stuff. Like, he had this spa where he would offer these treatments, and so many people went. Brennan: I think one thing that's really interesting to me is: As this wellness culture was becoming quite popularized in the 18th century, it's almost at the same time in which enlightenment is becoming the more dominant theory that's beginning to challenge religion. And so much of wellness culture today—to me—again feels like it is trying to be the central organizing principle in our lives that, you know, maybe religion used to take the place of. Tayag: You know, I think what religion offers people is a set of instructions for living your life. Yeah. And so if that's not being passed down by God, you gotta find it somewhere else. And maybe the particular flavor of wellness right now tells us a lot about where we are culturally. Brennan: I think that's right. We have an administration that's looking to prioritize or politicize 'health' as a main tenet of its policy. There's a growing culture of people who are undergoing very extreme measures to live longer. [Music.] Tayag: Yeah, and also it seems like every day I'm marketed a different supplement promising to improve me somehow. Brennan: And I think the big question I have, though, is Improve … what? What are we really trying to address or fix? And there's this idea that if you're not doing this, there's something wrong with you. Like it's a noble pursuit, right? It's a noble pursuit; it's a righteous movement. Tayag: So Natalie, that's Timothy Caulfield. He's a professor and the research director at the Health Law Institute at the University of Alberta. He and his research team look at the ways that health and science are represented in the public sphere—from product labels to misinformation and the promotion of unproven theories on social media. And we talked about the ways wellness culture, longevity, and especially biohacking are beginning to blur. [Music.] Caulfield: Well, I think that's a term that has taken on different lives, too. You know, when I first started exploring biohacking, it was very much this idea of putting a microchip in your body, or, you know, doing something kind of physical—using technology and merging it with the human body. I think biohacking now has morphed into the idea of … it includes that stuff, but it also includes using some kind of technique or procedure or supplement in order to optimize yourself. And I think in some ways, there has been a pivot from wellness and, you know, the alternative-medicine universe, to the language of longevity. And I think it's been a shift from kind of other ways of knowing, and perhaps culturally different ways to approach health, to the science-y kind of language of longevity. And the reality is: It's all the same noise being repackaged as longevity. Tayag: So could you give me an example of one or two specific forms of biohacking that have become popular? Caulfield: The cold plunge now has become really common; you hear influencers talking about [it]. It's very common in the manosphere—that masculine online-influencer space. A cold plunge is a pretty extreme activity, right? And you might be doing it with a community of individuals, right? Which, you know, can make it fun, and make it feel like it has a little bit more validity to it. And look, there are some studies that hint that it might have an impact on your immune system—and these are very preliminary—but the reality is, there is no good evidence to suggest that cold plunges are going to have a dramatic impact on your health. And certainly there's no evidence to suggest it's going to help you live longer. And I think we see that a lot in the biohacking longevity space. Sort of a misrepresentation of the complexity and nuance of the actual relevant research. Supplements are another, I think, really, really common biohacking tool that we're seeing now. And again, the supplement industry is absolutely massive. You know, it's a multibillion-dollar industry that is built on a foundation of very sketchy, questionable science, very, uh, light regulation. And yeah; look, I want to be really careful. Major caveat here: If you go to a science-informed clinician, and they tell you how you have a specific deficiency, that's different from the messaging that is emanating about supplements from the longevity industry. So I think those are two really common examples. Tayag: I mean, I have to admit: I have given into the cold plunge! I was skeptical going in, but I really enjoyed it! I felt amazing after. Caulfield: And I don't want to dismiss that, right? If people do find that, you know, invigorating, that's a thing—you know, that's a thing that's not to be dismissed. But the promise here is actual sort of biological change, right, that is going to have a measurable impact on how long you live—and we just don't have good studies to back that up. Tayag: So what's an example of a biohacking practice that did have evidence behind it, but might still be problematic? Caulfield: There have been examples of extreme diets. You're probably familiar with the intermittent-fasting trend, right? And that's a fascinating story. There've been interesting animal studies, and even sort of studies with humans that have suggested that it might promote longevity. The problem is, it can also, I think, promote disordered eating, right? Short term, like so many diets, they have helped people lose weight. But it's hard to maintain an extreme diet—there's really strong evidence to support this. The best diet, okay, is the diet that's healthy, sustainable, and works for you. That's the best diet, right? A healthy diet is one that is healthy, sustainable, and works for you. And that often means something that you enjoy. [Music.] Brennan: I have to admit, I love a cold plunge. Tayag: [Laughter.] Really? Brennan: I love a cold plunge. I guess what I mean is: I love to jump into cold water. Tayag: Where do you do this? Brennan: Anywhere I could jump into cold. If I could jump in the East River, I'd be swimming in it. Tayag: Please never do that. Brennan: I will never do that. On New Year's Day this year, I was at my best friend's house in L.A., and her parents have a pool. And it was filled, even though it was January. It's not heated. And I was like, 'It's New Year's Day; I need to cleanse.' And we jumped in together. And it was the just sweetest moment of my year so far, honestly. I felt amazing for the rest of the day. I can appreciate a lot of the factors there are just: I'm with my best friend, and it's a special day. And as somebody who spends a ton of time in my own head, water is a thing that really brings me into my body. Tayag: Yeah, and the jolt of cold shocks all the thoughts out of you. Brennan: But I'm interested in this idea about the placebo effect. In 1955, a researcher named Henry Beecher published an influential paper called 'The Powerful Placebo,' and its findings were debated for decades. But now there's wider scientific consensus that the placebo effect is real. So, in a classic placebo-effect trial, the control group wouldn't know that they're the control group, right? So let's say one group is given a real medication, and the other is given a placebo pill, and neither group knows which trial they're a part of. But, there was a study by Harvard Medical School that found that the placebo effect was up to 50 percent as effective as real drugs. Tayag: Big. Brennan: Huge. And they tested by giving one group a migraine drug labeled with the drug's name. Tayag: Mmhmm. Brennan: And another group took a placebo that was labeled placebo. Tayag: Oh, they knew. Brennan: They knew they were getting the placebo. Which may indicate that knowing you're being subject to a placebo doesn't ruin the effects. Which is all to say, to all listeners who are worried that we just ruined cold plunges for them: enjoy. Tayag: Yeah, you know: If you believe it's gonna make you feel awesome, it will! Maybe it will. Brennan: It maybe will. Tayag: But I think, you know, what I would like to see is to reframe these practices. If you love being at your friend's house and jumping into a cold pool on New Year's Day, like—do that, absolutely. But don't believe that it's going to make you live longer or be healthier. It might make you happier. It might make you happier, and, you know, that's important too. Brennan: Doing things that make you happy, be in community, create joy are good for your health, right? But the promise that we're being sold—that all of these very specific practices are the key to living longer? That one we need to analyze a bit. [Music.] Tayag: Tim, we've been talking a lot about how biohacks are promoted as science-based even when they aren't necessarily. So I'm curious: What is the larger impact that has on the public understanding of science more broadly? Caulfield: We've actually done a lot of research on this. I call it science-ploitation. So, you take real science—exciting science, often—science that has gotten a lot of attention in the popular press and in the information environment more broadly. And you take the language of that science in order to push misinformation or questionable therapies. One of the best examples of that: the stem-cell space. I've worked in this space right from the beginning, from the late '90s forward. I've been very closely connected to the stem-cell-research community. It is a genuinely exciting area of research, and there was a moment when it was the most … like, it was 'headlines' kind of research field. It was controversial because it involved embryo research. And because of that, we got a lot of hyped language about the value and the potential for stem cells to revolutionize health care. That language—and, by the way, that was hype. And probably not justified given how complex science … science is hard, right? Tayag: Science is hard. Stem cells—I still have to explain stem cells every time I mention them in an article. Caulfield: It's hard. It remains exciting, right? It remains exciting. But that language, the stem-cell language, has migrated to pop culture, and it's everywhere. The words stem cell: it's on facial cream. It's on beauty products more broadly. It's on shampoo. A bottle might say 'contains apple stem cells' or 'contains organic, all-natural stem cells.' And we know research also tells us that using sciencey language like stem cells does create a veneer of legitimacy. It does make it seem more believable, even if the use of the word doesn't fit with the product. And of course, what's really happening there is they're trying to leverage the genuine and justified excitement about a real field of research in order to give their product a veneer of scientific legitimacy. We've seen it happen with precision medicine. Everything's personalized now. And it works. And holy cow; it really is happening in the longevity space, right? Because these are individuals that want to lean into the cutting edge. They want to lean into things that are sort of in front of the curve. And so, therefore, it makes it more enticing; it makes it seem more legitimate, it makes it seem like they're doing the best they possibly can to live longer. And science-ploitation, as I call it, has become a very, very common marketing ploy. In fact, I think it's almost universal now. If there's a health or a nutritional product, there's almost some degree of science-ploitation associated with it. Tayag: Well, you know, with science-ploitation so rampant, how is the average consumer—who is maybe not super well-versed in how to assess the value of a study—you know, how are they supposed to make sense of all of this? If you see a face cream that says 'stem cells will renew your skin,' how do you know if that's real or not? Caulfield: Assume nothing works. I once pitched a book called Nothing Works. And the editors were like, 'Okay, that's a little dark,' but you can almost do that. If there was some kind of revolutionary new approach to doing something, I promise, we would know. There would just be this broad acceptance of it, right? And for most of the things that we want to improve our life, you know: We know the answer. There really are very few, if any, magical answers. Tayag: Let's remind people what works. What are those things that we should know and not take for granted? Caulfield: You don't smoke. You exercise, you know—move, just move. Do what you love, whether that's flipping tires or dancing or walking; just do something you love, right? You eat healthy. You sleep. You take the logical preventative steps, right—you wear a seatbelt, you get vaccinated. You drink less alcohol, right? Less is best. And you surround yourself with people you love, and you have a good community. That's it, right? Oh, oh, the very most important thing you need to do: Pick the right parents, right? Make sure you have the right parents, because that speaks to the genetic-luck component to it—but more importantly, unfortunately, it speaks to socioeconomics, it speaks to equity, it speaks to the injustices that permeate our societies that really have an impact on how long you're going to live. Everything else you do, everything else you do at best is nibbling at the edges, and might be even hurting those other things. Tayag: Do you have any advice for people who are trying to understand the research? Like, they really want to figure out: Is this real interesting new science, or is it just science-ploitation? Caulfield: Never fall for what's often called the 'single-study syndrome.' Right? So if it's one study that sort of counters a body of evidence, that's interesting. But always remember: You have to generally be patient and wait for the science to evolve, wait for a body of evidence to emerge, and always remember that science is hard and it takes a very long time to go from an animal study to a clinical study to actually being in the clinic or being, you know, on your shelves at a grocery store. It takes an extremely long time if it ever is going to happen at all. Tayag: How do you respond to people who say that data sources are biased or corrupted in some ways? This is something I encounter a lot in my work. Where, for example, on a story I recently worked on about raw milk, a raw-milk farmer told me that all of the data that I was looking at was produced by institutions that are funded by Big Ag. How do you counter that sort of thinking? Caulfield: I think being transparent about that reality is important. And I think it's also important to highlight that on most of these topics, raw milk included, we can look at a body of evidence that points in the same direction, regardless of who the researchers are and how they're funded. Tayag: I often hear people's frustration that there isn't more scientific attention paid to alternative therapies. And perhaps if there were, we'd have more information about the benefits of cold plunges, let's say, for example. Caulfield: Something like cold plunges, you know, there is this—and first of all, there has been research on it. I think there's ongoing research on it. And I applaud individuals that are working in this space. But I also—and this is where the frustration comes in—should research really be driven by pop-culture interest in a topic, or even the need to debunk something because of the pop-culture interest in the topic? Or should it be driven by scientific plausibility? Unfortunately, too often, our scientific resources are devoted to topics that have become popular, and we're devoting resources to them because we have to debunk them. And of course, I mean, a really good example of that is something like the Wakefield study that suggested vaccines are tied to autism. Think of the tens of millions of dollars and the resources, right? And the researcher time that's been wasted proving definitively that there's no connection between autism and vaccines. And the only reason we had to do that is because, you know, in pop culture, that myth took on a life of its own. But we continue to study it, because we need more data to debunk it. Still—I recognize, and I'm glad, that people want evidence on things they're interested in. That instinct is healthy. The instinct for wanting more evidence on something, and good evidence. That's a good instinct. And that should be supported. Tayag: We're going to take a short break. But when we come back…. Tayag: What's really going on here in this pursuit for longevity? Caulfield: So if you look at even people like Bryan Johnson, I mean, how often is that guy photographed with the shirt off? Tayag: Every time. I've never seen him with a shirt on. Caulfield: Yeah. So that, I think that tells us something…. Tayag: More on the longevity movement and its charisma, after the break. [Ad break.] Tayag: So, Timothy, what's really going on here in this pursuit for longevity? You know, humans have been trying to defy death forever. And I'm curious, with the current longevity push, what are people really chasing? Are they really just trying to live longer? Caulfield: I think this is a really fascinating question. Because I think the answer is both 'Yes, they want to live longer'—but if you listen to these influencers, and you flip through their books, they're promising more than just living longer, right? They are promising being better. They're promising sexy abs, a better love life, more success at work. It's an entire package, right? Living better, doing it better, being better. It's about this optimization, uh, concept. The other fascinating thing with the longevity movement—and this is interesting because I think it very much is about men, which historically was the case too, right? Living longer is very much about men. And there's this idea that if you're not doing this, there's something wrong with you. Like it's a noble pursuit. It's a righteous, righteous movement to be adopting all of these approaches. There was an interesting study—it was a qualitative study, so we have to be careful how we interpret the data—but basically, it was asking women their view on beauty products. And it was fascinating, because they kind of knew they probably didn't work, maybe they worked, but they still felt compelled to to use them. This idea that you ought to be doing this, right—and if you're not doing this, you're failing in some way—is a pressure that's always there. Tayag: Mm hmm. And, is there a problem? Like, what are you concerned about with that pressure existing? Caulfield: Well, first of all, I think that pressure is a marketing tool, right, to use these often unproven therapies. I think it can be exploitive, right, and can create anxiety. There are some studies—and, again, it's hard to study this well, so don't overinterpret this research—but it does suggest that this kind of pressure does shift how people think about things like public health. Because the emphasis is really you, like it's your job, right, to do these things. And if you are not healthier and not optimizing, hey, that's your problem. It's not my problem; it's not the government's problem; it's not, you know, your community's problem. That's your problem. If you emphasize sort of precision and personalization of health, it causes people to be less supportive of public-health interventions. But intuitively, that feels right, because it really is about you, you, you, you. The responsibility is on you. And if you're not doing it, you're failing. Tayag: In pursuing all of these new biohacks—these techniques that are supposedly backed by new and cutting-edge science that isn't even out there yet—it makes me wonder if there's an element of mistrust involved in rejecting that public-health science that we already have long known about. Do you think mistrust plays a role? Caulfield: I do. I do. I think it's really important to recognize that historically, there are groups that have been treated terribly by the health-care system, by the scientific community. Women and people of color not listened to, their problems not taken seriously by conventional medicine. The biomedical-research institution has not done enough research on women—same with people of color. So this is a genuine problem. Unfortunately, what's happening is the wellness industry, the longevity industry, they're exploiting that issue. They're not fixing it; they're exploiting it. They're creating more distrust in the conventional system and not rectifying the problems with the conventional system in order to sell products, to sell ideologies, to sell a brand. So it infuriates me, because these are real problems that need to be fixed. We didn't get it right. You know: Let's try to fix the problem, not sell products on the back of the problem. [Music.] Brennan: Yasmin, do you remember the other day we were working on an episode? And I happened out of the corner of my eye to see on your computer a headline about having a crayon's worth of microplastic in my brain. Tayag: I do remember that. You were freaked out. Brennan: I did not like that. And do you remember what I asked you? Tayag: What did you say? Brennan: I instinctively was like, What do I do? And you said some very practical responses—like 'Switch to glass containers; make sure your cutting board isn't plastic'—but it was not enough to fully quiet my mind. I spiraled for a full day. Tayag: Oh! Brennan: Because the things that are in my control, right—my Tupperware, for example—feel so disproportionate to all the factors that are out of my control. And so I really understand the impulse right now to want to take matters into your own hands when it comes to health and wellness. When you feel like there are all of these systems that don't have your health in mind. Tayag: That is so real. Like, that is such a real way to feel right now: like you are not in control of so many things that affect your health. Our bodies are supposed to be our ground zero for autonomy and control. And there is something so empowering about being able to make healthy choices for yourself, especially if regulation is not keeping the plastic out of our brains. And it's even more frustrating to realize that there are companies that know that you and thousands of other people are feeling that way and have convinced you that you can buy your way out of that fear. Brennan: And that's only looking at things through the individual perspective again, right? Because I want the crayons out of all the people I love's brains too, not just my own. And even all the brains I don't know. I don't want crayon anywhere. Tayag: You know, I didn't think of it until Tim mentioned it, but it's really true that what feels so pertinent to this particular moment, is how individualized the pursuit of living longer feels. It's all about you and what you can do. Brennan: Which is so ironic, because I have to guess that if we looked at the times in which the human lifespan has actually increased the most, I would guess it would be directly correlated with the invention of public-health initiatives. Tayag: Oh, before we started to pasteurize milk—in, like, the late 1800s—a huge number of kids died from drinking bacteria-tainted milk. Brennan: Right. Tayag: And once pasteurization became standard, it turned that around. The kids stopped dying from milk. And then obviously vaccination, one of the biggest public-health initiatives, was estimated to have saved over 150 million lives in the last 50 years. And, you know, things we take for granted—like clean water or an actual sewage system, instead of flushing your waste into the East River—hugely decrease deaths from illnesses. Brennan: But these inventions often take time, right? These new initiatives can move slowly. So what do we do now while we wait? [Music.] Tayag: So I want to zoom out a little bit and come back to this question of: How are people supposed to try to live longer if that is something they want to do? In your new book, Certainty of Illusion, you discuss the illusion of thinking you have the answers to everything because we have so much information at our fingertips. The illusion is the certainty. But how can people break free of the illusion that they can hack their way into living longer? Caulfield: Alas, life is pretty random, you know. And we want to control it. That's one of the reasons conspiracy theories emerge, right? You know: People desire patterns, they desire answers, they want answers that sort of fit with their worldview. So, you know, recognize that there often is a lot of uncertainty and randomness, and get comfortable with that. And there's a lot of uncertainty in science. Science is about uncertainty, right? Evidence can evolve. If science said one thing 20 years ago—and science isn't a person, it's not an institution, it's not an industry. Science is a process, right? And if we used that scientific process to come to a conclusion 20 years ago—and that evolved, and that has evolved—science isn't wrong. That's science working, right? You know, aspirin; our view on who should be taking aspirin as a preventative measure. That's evolved, right? You know, our view on using BMI as a tool for public health. That's evolved. That's a good thing. That's science evolving. Don't view it as a reason to get frustrated about public health or the institution of science. Celebrate that evolution of science and of evidence. Because if you're not using that systematic tool to accumulate knowledge, if you're not using science to try to understand our world and make decisions, what are you going to use? We might have a huge breakthrough, and if that does happen it's going to be really big news. I often ask—I did this in my last class, just last week—I asked the class: name 10 genuinely big scientific health breakthroughs that have happened in the last century. Right? Genuinely transformative health breakthroughs—it's hard, right?—that have actually revolutionized. So you've got, like, clean water. That's more than a hundred years. You have, you know, antibiotics. The list is pretty short, right? It's pretty short. You know, the new GLP-1s—like Ozempic and its competitors—I think that's fascinating, right? Recognizing that we're still accumulating evidence about side effects and long-term benefits and harms, but it's a pretty short list. And so: Remember that, right? Remember that, and lean back, and lean into those basic things we can do for ourselves, and—really, really importantly—for our community, building communities that foster those basic things. [Music.] Caulfield: Aging shouldn't become a contest, you know, that you suffer through to get to the finish line. It's not a contest. And holy cow, it sounds kind of New Age-y for a guy, such a science geek. But I think it really is about living well, and enjoying life, and enjoying your friends and family, and enjoying the journey. How New Age-y is that? And the irony, of course, is the research tells us that living well and living a happy life—that helps with longevity too, right? That helps your ultimate goal too. So, yeah: pulling back from this idea of optimizing every corner of your life to, hey, living well. Tayag: Thanks so much, Tim. This has been such a pleasure. Caulfield: Thank you. [Music.] Brennan: Yasmin, I'm still thinking about that question that I asked you about the microplastics. 'What do I do?' And I think what I really wanted to hear in that moment was, 'It's fine. It's okay.' You're like … 'It's not.' Tayag: Sorry. Brennan: No, and I would know that it's not truthful, right? I know that it's not okay. It's not fine. And in cognitive behavioral therapy, this is something called reassurance seeking. Have you heard of this? Tayag: I haven't. Brennan: There's this book written by these two psychologists, Martin Seif and Sally Winston, called Needing to Know for Sure, that a friend who has a very similar internal monologue to me recommended. And it's a CBT guide for compulsive checking and reassurance seeking. And instead of trying to constantly seek affirmation that everything is okay, the book helps you try and sit in the uncertainty and get comfortable with the idea that often, we just can't know what's going to happen. Which is really hard. Tayag: It's so hard, I think, from like a health perspective. People are bad at thinking about risk. And that's really what all of these public-health interventions, all of the health interventions that are available to us, are all about: reducing our risk. It will make you less likely to get cancer or to have a bone fracture later in life. But it's never guaranteed, and that's the whole thing about risk—there's no 100 percent sure way to get rid of everything. But you're bringing that risk down a little bit, and that's the best we can do. Brennan: And what I like about your conversation with Tim is that, you know, it kind of sits in a middle ground, right? We can't 100 percent know that a certain supplement is going to increase our lifespan. And we can't know that a new superfood is going to definitely help us age up. But there are these tangible steps that we can work into our day to day at any point to commit to a practice of living healthier. Tayag: Yeah; we don't have all the answers, but we have some of the answers. Brennan: And I think I can sit in that. You know, that might be enough for me. And for the days that I can't, when I can't sit in that thought, you know—those are the days that I delight in jumping into water. [Music.] Tayag: That's all for this episode of How to Age Up. This episode was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayag, and co-hosted and produced by Natalie Brennan. Our editors are Claudine Ebeid and Jocelyn Frank. Fact-check by Ena Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smierciak. Rob also composed some of the music for this show. The executive producer of audio is Claudine Ebeid, and the managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez. Brennan: Next time on How to Age Up: I'm here to tell you that your mother and grandmother are pretty much having a good time. Tayag: What we can learn about the benefits of aging, and what we still get wrong about menopause. We'll be back with you on Monday. Article originally published at The Atlantic
Atlantic
07-04-2025
- Health
- Atlantic
How to Defy Death
Humans have always tried to prolong life and battle mortality, but what do the current influx of biohackers reveal about this era of individual responsibility? Timothy Caulfield, a professor and the research director at the Health Law Institute at the University of Alberta, studies how health and science are represented in the public sphere. The lines between wellness culture, longevity, and biohacking are beginning to blur, and Caulfield offers advice about how to dodge misinformation and unproven theories while still pursuing a long and meaningful life. How do you think about aging? Please leave us a voicemail (202-266-7701) with your name, your age, and answers to the following questions: What aspects of aging are you nervous about? What are you looking forward to as you age? Who do you hope to be like when you are older? Is there someone in your life who has made you excited to get older? Leaving a voicemail means that you are consenting to the possibility of The Atlantic using your audio in a future episode of How To. The following is a transcript: Natalie Brennan: Do you want to live forever? [ Music. ] Yasmin Tayag: Hell no. Absolutely not. Of course I want to live, like, a long and healthy and happy life. I would love to live to, like, 90. You know, enjoy the time with my family and friends. But, like, thinking about how tired I am now at 37, I'm like—can you imagine how exhausted you'd be at 100, 150? Brennan: I don't want to live forever, but I'm really scared of death. I mean, it's kind of the one thing we really don't know anything about, right? And I feel like I want to get to the bottom of everything. I want the answers. And that's one we don't get answers about. Tayag: Maybe that's why we're so tired. Brennan: Exhausted. I'm exhausted. Tayag: I'm Yasmin Tayag, a staff writer with The Atlantic. Brennan: And I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at The Atlantic. Tasmin: This is How to Age Up. [ Music.] Brennan: Yasmin, you've been reporting on science, health, culture, for the last, what—decade? Tayag: It's been a decade. Brennan: From your perspective, does this current moment of longevity culture feel different to you, or is this just, you know, humans have always been obsessed with figuring out how to defy death? Tayag: I would say that we could look at any decade, even any century, and see that there were health trends that were prominent. In the 1700s, people were doing bloodletting: literally cutting open a vein to let a couple ounces of blood out. Because they thought that's how you would get rid of illness in the body and be healthier. And 200 years later, John Harvey Kellogg, the cereal guy—he was basically, like, the TikTok wellness influencer of the time, and he was promoting things like electric-light bathing. Brennan: What's that? Tayag: It's lying in a box surrounded by lights. And he said this would cure basically any ailment. Brennan: I'd give it a try. [ Laughter.] Tayag: Kellogg also pushed things like three-gallon enemas. Brennan: Whoa. Tayag: Because he was very into the idea of cleansing your insides and outsides to be healthy. And people loved this stuff. Like, he had this spa where he would offer these treatments, and so many people went. Brennan: I think one thing that's really interesting to me is: As this wellness culture was becoming quite popularized in the 18th century, it's almost at the same time in which enlightenment is becoming the more dominant theory that's beginning to challenge religion. And so much of wellness culture today—to me— again feels like it is trying to be the central organizing principle in our lives that, you know, maybe religion used to take the place of. Tayag: You know, I think what religion offers people is a set of instructions for living your life. Yeah. And so if that's not being passed down by God, you gotta find it somewhere else. And maybe the particular flavor of wellness right now tells us a lot about where we are culturally. Brennan: I think that's right. We have an administration that's looking to prioritize or politicize 'health' as a main tenet of its policy. There's a growing culture of people who are undergoing very extreme measures to live longer. Tayag: Yeah, and also it seems like every day I'm marketed a different supplement promising to improve me somehow. Brennan: And I think the big question I have, though, is Improve … what? What are we really trying to address or fix? Timothy Caulfield: And there's this idea that if you're not doing this, there's something wrong with you. Like it's a noble pursuit, right? It's a noble pursuit; it's a righteous movement. Tayag: So Natalie, that's Timothy Caulfield. He's a professor and the research director at the Health Law Institute at the University of Alberta. He and his research team look at the ways that health and science are represented in the public sphere—from product labels to misinformation and the promotion of unproven theories on social media. And we talked about the ways wellness culture, longevity, and especially biohacking are beginning to blur. [ Music. ] Caulfield: Well, I think that's a term that has taken on different lives, too. You know, when I first started exploring biohacking, it was very much this idea of putting a microchip in your body, or, you know, doing something kind of physical—using technology and merging it with the human body. I think biohacking now has morphed into the idea of … it includes that stuff, but it also includes using some kind of technique or procedure or supplement in order to optimize yourself. And I think in some ways, there has been a pivot from wellness and, you know, the alternative-medicine universe, to the language of longevity. And I think it's been a shift from kind of other ways of knowing, and perhaps culturally different ways to approach health, to the science-y kind of language of longevity. And the reality is: It's all the same noise being repackaged as longevity. Tayag: So could you give me an example of one or two specific forms of biohacking that have become popular? Caulfield: The cold plunge now has become really common; you hear influencers talking about [it]. It's very common in the manosphere—that masculine online-influencer space. A cold plunge is a pretty extreme activity, right? And you might be doing it with a community of individuals, right? Which, you know, can make it fun, and make it feel like it has a little bit more validity to it. And look, there are some studies that hint that it might have an impact on your immune system—and these are very preliminary—but the reality is, there is no good evidence to suggest that cold plunges are going to have a dramatic impact on your health. And certainly there's no evidence to suggest it's going to help you live longer. And I think we see that a lot in the biohacking longevity space. Sort of a misrepresentation of the complexity and nuance of the actual relevant research. Supplements are another, I think, really, really common biohacking tool that we're seeing now. And again, the supplement industry is absolutely massive. You know, it's a multibillion-dollar industry that is built on a foundation of very sketchy, questionable science, very, uh, light regulation. And yeah; look, I want to be really careful. Major caveat here: If you go to a science-informed clinician, and they tell you how you have a specific deficiency, that's different from the messaging that is emanating about supplements from the longevity industry. So I think those are two really common examples. Tayag: I mean, I have to admit: I have given into the cold plunge! I was skeptical going in, but I really enjoyed it! I felt amazing after. Caulfield: And I don't want to dismiss that, right? If people do find that, you know, invigorating, that's a thing—you know, that's a thing that's not to be dismissed. But the promise here is actual sort of biological change, right, that is going to have a measurable impact on how long you live—and we just don't have good studies to back that up. Tayag: So what's an example of a biohacking practice that did have evidence behind it, but might still be problematic? Caulfield: There have been examples of extreme diets. You're probably familiar with the intermittent-fasting trend, right? And that's a fascinating story. There've been interesting animal studies, and even sort of studies with humans that have suggested that it might promote longevity. The problem is, it can also, I think, promote disordered eating, right? Short term, like so many diets, they have helped people lose weight. But it's hard to maintain an extreme diet—there's really strong evidence to support this. The best diet, okay, is the diet that's healthy, sustainable, and works for you. That's the best diet, right? A healthy diet is one that is healthy, sustainable, and works for you. And that often means something that you enjoy. [ Music. ] Brennan: I have to admit, I love a cold plunge. Tayag: [ Laughter. ] Really? Brennan: I love a cold plunge. I guess what I mean is: I love to jump into cold water. Tayag: Where do you do this? Brennan: Anywhere I could jump into cold. If I could jump in the East River, I'd be swimming in it. Tayag: Please never do that. Brennan: I will never do that. On New Year's Day this year, I was at my best friend's house in L.A., and her parents have a pool. And it was filled, even though it was January. It's not heated. And I was like, 'It's New Year's Day; I need to cleanse.' And we jumped in together. And it was the just sweetest moment of my year so far, honestly. I felt amazing for the rest of the day. I can appreciate a lot of the factors there are just: I'm with my best friend, and it's a special day. And as somebody who spends a ton of time in my own head, water is a thing that really brings me into my body. Tayag: Yeah, and the jolt of cold shocks all the thoughts out of you. Brennan: But I'm interested in this idea about the placebo effect. In 1955, a researcher named Henry Beecher published an influential paper called 'The Powerful Placebo,' and its findings were debated for decades. But now there's wider scientific consensus that the placebo effect is real. So, in a classic placebo-effect trial, the control group wouldn't know that they're the control group, right? So let's say one group is given a real medication, and the other is given a placebo pill, and neither group knows which trial they're a part of. But, there was a study by Harvard Medical School that found that the placebo effect was up to 50 percent as effective as real drugs. Tayag: Big. Brennan: Huge. And they tested by giving one group a migraine drug labeled with the drug's name. Tayag: Mmhmm. Brennan: And another group took a placebo that was labeled placebo. Tayag: Oh, they knew. Brennan: They knew they were getting the placebo. Which may indicate that knowing you're being subject to a placebo doesn't ruin the effects. Which is all to say, to all listeners who are worried that we just ruined cold plunges for them: enjoy. Tayag: Yeah, you know: If you believe it's gonna make you feel awesome, it will! Maybe it will. Brennan: It maybe will. Tayag: But I think, you know, what I would like to see is to reframe these practices. If you love being at your friend's house and jumping into a cold pool on New Year's Day, like—do that, absolutely. But don't believe that it's going to make you live longer or be healthier. It might make you happier. It might make you happier, and, you know, that's important too. Brennan: Doing things that make you happy, be in community, create joy are good for your health, right? But the promise that we're being sold—that all of these very specific practices are the key to living longer? That one we need to analyze a bit. [ Music. ] Tayag: Tim, we've been talking a lot about how biohacks are promoted as science-based even when they aren't necessarily. So I'm curious: What is the larger impact that has on the public understanding of science more broadly? Caulfield: We've actually done a lot of research on this. I call it science-ploitation. So, you take real science—exciting science, often—science that has gotten a lot of attention in the popular press and in the information environment more broadly. And you take the language of that science in order to push misinformation or questionable therapies. One of the best examples of that: the stem-cell space. I've worked in this space right from the beginning, from the late '90s forward. I've been very closely connected to the stem-cell-research community. It is a genuinely exciting area of research, and there was a moment when it was the most … like, it was 'headlines' kind of research field. It was controversial because it involved embryo research. And because of that, we got a lot of hyped language about the value and the potential for stem cells to revolutionize health care. That language—and, by the way, that was hype. And probably not justified given how complex science … science is hard, right? Tayag: Science is hard. Stem cells—I still have to explain stem cells every time I mention them in an article. Caulfield: It's hard. It remains exciting, right? It remains exciting. But that language, the stem-cell language, has migrated to pop culture, and it's everywhere. The words stem cell: it's on facial cream. It's on beauty products more broadly. It's on shampoo. A bottle might say 'contains apple stem cells' or 'contains organic, all-natural stem cells.' And we know research also tells us that using sciencey language like stem cells does create a veneer of legitimacy. It does make it seem more believable, even if the use of the word doesn't fit with the product. And of course, what's really happening there is they're trying to leverage the genuine and justified excitement about a real field of research in order to give their product a veneer of scientific legitimacy. We've seen it happen with precision medicine. Everything's personalized now. And it works. And holy cow; it really is happening in the longevity space, right? Because these are individuals that want to lean into the cutting edge. They want to lean into things that are sort of in front of the curve. And so, therefore, it makes it more enticing; it makes it seem more legitimate, it makes it seem like they're doing the best they possibly can to live longer. And science-ploitation, as I call it, has become a very, very common marketing ploy. In fact, I think it's almost universal now. If there's a health or a nutritional product, there's almost some degree of science-ploitation associated with it. Tayag: Well, you know, with science-ploitation so rampant, how is the average consumer—who is maybe not super well-versed in how to assess the value of a study—you know, how are they supposed to make sense of all of this? If you see a face cream that says 'stem cells will renew your skin,' how do you know if that's real or not? Caulfield: Assume nothing works. I once pitched a book called Nothing Works. And the editors were like, 'Okay, that's a little dark,' but you can almost do that. If there was some kind of revolutionary new approach to doing something, I promise, we would know. There would just be this broad acceptance of it, right? And for most of the things that we want to improve our life, you know: We know the answer. There really are very few, if any, magical answers. Tayag: Let's remind people what works. What are those things that we should know and not take for granted? Caulfield: You don't smoke. You exercise, you know—move, just move. Do what you love, whether that's flipping tires or dancing or walking; just do something you love, right? You eat healthy. You sleep. You take the logical preventative steps, right—you wear a seatbelt, you get vaccinated. You drink less alcohol, right? Less is best. And you surround yourself with people you love, and you have a good community. That's it, right? Oh, oh, the very most important thing you need to do: Pick the right parents, right? Make sure you have the right parents, because that speaks to the genetic-luck component to it—but more importantly, unfortunately, it speaks to socioeconomics, it speaks to equity, it speaks to the injustices that permeate our societies that really have an impact on how long you're going to live. Everything else you do, everything else you do at best is nibbling at the edges, and might be even hurting those other things. Tayag: Do you have any advice for people who are trying to understand the research? Like, they really want to figure out: Is this real interesting new science, or is it just science-ploitation? Caulfield: Never fall for what's often called the 'single-study syndrome.' Right? So if it's one study that sort of counters a body of evidence, that's interesting. But always remember: You have to generally be patient and wait for the science to evolve, wait for a body of evidence to emerge, and always remember that science is hard and it takes a very long time to go from an animal study to a clinical study to actually being in the clinic or being, you know, on your shelves at a grocery store. It takes an extremely long time if it ever is going to happen at all. Tayag: How do you respond to people who say that data sources are biased or corrupted in some ways? This is something I encounter a lot in my work. Where, for example, on a story I recently worked on about raw milk, a raw-milk farmer told me that all of the data that I was looking at was produced by institutions that are funded by Big Ag. How do you counter that sort of thinking? Caulfield: I think being transparent about that reality is important. And I think it's also important to highlight that on most of these topics, raw milk included, we can look at a body of evidence that points in the same direction, regardless of who the researchers are and how they're funded. Tayag: I often hear people's frustration that there isn't more scientific attention paid to alternative therapies. And perhaps if there were, we'd have more information about the benefits of cold plunges, let's say, for example. Caulfield: Something like cold plunges, you know, there is this—and first of all, there has been research on it. I think there's ongoing research on it. And I applaud individuals that are working in this space. But I also—and this is where the frustration comes in—should research really be driven by pop-culture interest in a topic, or even the need to debunk something because of the pop-culture interest in the topic? Or should it be driven by scientific plausibility? Unfortunately, too often, our scientific resources are devoted to topics that have become popular, and we're devoting resources to them because we have to debunk them. And of course, I mean, a really good example of that is something like the Wakefield study that suggested vaccines are tied to autism. Think of the tens of millions of dollars and the resources, right? And the researcher time that's been wasted proving definitively that there's no connection between autism and vaccines. And the only reason we had to do that is because, you know, in pop culture, that myth took on a life of its own. But we continue to study it, because we need more data to debunk it. Still—I recognize, and I'm glad, that people want evidence on things they're interested in. That instinct is healthy. The instinct for wanting more evidence on something, and good evidence. That's a good instinct. And that should be supported. Tayag: We're going to take a short break. But when we come back…. Tayag: What's really going on here in this pursuit for longevity? Caulfield: So if you look at even people like Bryan Johnson, I mean, how often is that guy photographed with the shirt off? Tayag: Every time. I've never seen him with a shirt on. Tayag: More on the longevity movement and its charisma, after the break. [ Ad break. ] Tayag: So, Timothy, what's really going on here in this pursuit for longevity? You know, humans have been trying to defy death forever. And I'm curious, with the current longevity push, what are people really chasing? Are they really just trying to live longer? Caulfield: I think this is a really fascinating question. Because I think the answer is both 'Yes, they want to live longer'—but if you listen to these influencers, and you flip through their books, they're promising more than just living longer, right? They are promising being better. They're promising sexy abs, a better love life, more success at work. It's an entire package, right? Living better, doing it better, being better. It's about this optimization, uh, concept. The other fascinating thing with the longevity movement—and this is interesting because I think it very much is about men, which historically was the case too, right? Living longer is very much about men. And there's this idea that if you're not doing this, there's something wrong with you. Like it's a noble pursuit. It's a righteous, righteous movement to be adopting all of these approaches. There was an interesting study—it was a qualitative study, so we have to be careful how we interpret the data—but basically, it was asking women their view on beauty products. And it was fascinating, because they kind of knew they probably didn't work, maybe they worked, but they still felt compelled to to use them. This idea that you ought to be doing this, right—and if you're not doing this, you're failing in some way—is a pressure that's always there. Tayag: Mm hmm. And, is there a problem? Like, what are you concerned about with that pressure existing? Caulfield: Well, first of all, I think that pressure is a marketing tool, right, to use these often unproven therapies. I think it can be exploitive, right, and can create anxiety. There are some studies—and, again, it's hard to study this well, so don't overinterpret this research—but it does suggest that this kind of pressure does shift how people think about things like public health. Because the emphasis is really you, like it's your job, right, to do these things. And if you are not healthier and not optimizing, hey, that's your problem. It's not my problem; it's not the government's problem; it's not, you know, your community's problem. That's your problem. If you emphasize sort of precision and personalization of health, it causes people to be less supportive of public-health interventions. But intuitively, that feels right, because it really is about you, you, you, you. The responsibility is on you. And if you're not doing it, you're failing. Tayag: In pursuing all of these new biohacks—these techniques that are supposedly backed by new and cutting-edge science that isn't even out there yet—it makes me wonder if there's an element of mistrust involved in rejecting that public-health science that we already have long known about. Do you think mistrust plays a role? Caulfield: I do. I do. I think it's really important to recognize that historically, there are groups that have been treated terribly by the health-care system, by the scientific community. Women and people of color not listened to, their problems not taken seriously by conventional medicine. The biomedical-research institution has not done enough research on women—same with people of color. So this is a genuine problem. Unfortunately, what's happening is the wellness industry, the longevity industry, they're exploiting that issue. They're not fixing it; they're exploiting it. They're creating more distrust in the conventional system and not rectifying the problems with the conventional system in order to sell products, to sell ideologies, to sell a brand. So it infuriates me, because these are real problems that need to be fixed. We didn't get it right. You know: Let's try to fix the problem, not sell products on the back of the problem. [ Music. ] Brennan: Yasmin, do you remember the other day we were working on an episode? And I happened out of the corner of my eye to see on your computer a headline about having a crayon's worth of microplastic in my brain. Tayag: I do remember that. You were freaked out. Brennan: I did not like that. And do you remember what I asked you? Tayag: What did you say? Brennan: I instinctively was like, What do I do? And you said some very practical responses—like 'S witch to glass containers; make sure your cutting board isn't plastic'—but it was not enough to fully quiet my mind. I spiraled for a full day. Tayag: Oh! Brennan: Because the things that are in my control, right—my Tupperware, for example—feel so disproportionate to all the factors that are out of my control. And so I really understand the impulse right now to want to take matters into your own hands when it comes to health and wellness. When you feel like there are all of these systems that don't have your health in mind. Tayag: That is so real. Like, that is such a real way to feel right now: like you are not in control of so many things that affect your health. Our bodies are supposed to be our ground zero for autonomy and control. And there is something so empowering about being able to make healthy choices for yourself, especially if regulation is not keeping the plastic out of our brains. And it's even more frustrating to realize that there are companies that know that you and thousands of other people are feeling that way and have convinced you that you can buy your way out of that fear. Brennan: And that's only looking at things through the individual perspective again, right? Because I want the crayons out of all the people I love's brains too, not just my own. And even all the brains I don't know. I don't want crayon anywhere. Tayag: You know, I didn't think of it until Tim mentioned it, but it's really true that what feels so pertinent to this particular moment, is how individualized the pursuit of living longer feels. It's all about you and what you can do. Brennan: Which is so ironic, because I have to guess that if we looked at the times in which the human lifespan has actually increased the most, I would guess it would be directly correlated with the invention of public-health initiatives. Tayag: Oh, before we started to pasteurize milk—in, like, the late 1800s—a huge number of kids died from drinking bacteria-tainted milk. Brennan: Right. Tayag: And once pasteurization became standard, it turned that around. The kids stopped dying from milk. And then obviously vaccination, one of the biggest public-health initiatives, was estimated to have saved over 150 million lives in the last 50 years. And, you know, things we take for granted—like clean water or an actual sewage system, instead of flushing your waste into the East River—hugely decrease deaths from illnesses. Brennan: But these inventions often take time, right? These new initiatives can move slowly. So what do we do now while we wait? [ Music. ] Tayag: So I want to zoom out a little bit and come back to this question of: How are people supposed to try to live longer if that is something they want to do? In your new book, Certainty of Illusion, you discuss the illusion of thinking you have the answers to everything because we have so much information at our fingertips. The illusion is the certainty. But how can people break free of the illusion that they can hack their way into living longer? Caulfield: Alas, life is pretty random, you know. And we want to control it. That's one of the reasons conspiracy theories emerge, right? You know: People desire patterns, they desire answers, they want answers that sort of fit with their worldview. So, you know, recognize that there often is a lot of uncertainty and randomness, and get comfortable with that. And there's a lot of uncertainty in science. Science is about uncertainty, right? Evidence can evolve. If science said one thing 20 years ago—and science isn't a person, it's not an institution, it's not an industry. Science is a process, right? And if we used that scientific process to come to a conclusion 20 years ago—and that evolved, and that has evolved—science isn't wrong. That's science working, right? You know, aspirin; our view on who should be taking aspirin as a preventative measure. That's evolved, right? You know, our view on using BMI as a tool for public health. That's evolved. That's a good thing. That's science evolving. Don't view it as a reason to get frustrated about public health or the institution of science. Celebrate that evolution of science and of evidence. Because if you're not using that systematic tool to accumulate knowledge, if you're not using science to try to understand our world and make decisions, what are you going to use? We might have a huge breakthrough, and if that does happen it's going to be really big news. I often ask—I did this in my last class, just last week—I asked the class: name 10 genuinely big scientific health breakthroughs that have happened in the last century. Right? Genuinely transformative health breakthroughs—it's hard, right?—that have actually revolutionized. So you've got, like, clean water. That's more than a hundred years. You have, you know, antibiotics. The list is pretty short, right? It's pretty short. You know, the new GLP-1s—like Ozempic and its competitors—I think that's fascinating, right? Recognizing that we're still accumulating evidence about side effects and long-term benefits and harms, but it's a pretty short list. And so: Remember that, right? Remember that, and lean back, and lean into those basic things we can do for ourselves, and—really, really importantly—for our community, building communities that foster those basic things. [ Music. ] Caulfield: Aging shouldn't become a contest, you know, that you suffer through to get to the finish line. It's not a contest. And holy cow, it sounds kind of New Age-y for a guy, such a science geek. But I think it really is about living well, and enjoying life, and enjoying your friends and family, and enjoying the journey. How New Age-y is that? And the irony, of course, is the research tells us that living well and living a happy life—that helps with longevity too, right? That helps your ultimate goal too. So, yeah: pulling back from this idea of optimizing every corner of your life to, hey, living well. Tayag: Thanks so much, Tim. This has been such a pleasure. Caulfield: Thank you. [ Music. ] Brennan: Yasmin, I'm still thinking about that question that I asked you about the microplastics. 'What do I do?' And I think what I really wanted to hear in that moment was, 'It's fine. It's okay.' You're like … 'It's not.' Tayag: Sorry. Brennan: No, and I would know that it's not truthful, right? I know that it's not okay. It's not fine. And in cognitive behavioral therapy, this is something called reassurance seeking. Have you heard of this? Tayag: I haven't. Brennan: There's this book written by these two psychologists, Martin Seif and Sally Winston, called Needing to Know for Sure, that a friend who has a very similar internal monologue to me recommended. And it's a CBT guide for compulsive checking and reassurance seeking. And instead of trying to constantly seek affirmation that everything is okay, the book helps you try and sit in the uncertainty and get comfortable with the idea that often, we just can't know what's going to happen. Which is really hard. Tayag: It's so hard, I think, from like a health perspective. People are bad at thinking about risk. And that's really what all of these public-health interventions, all of the health interventions that are available to us, are all about: reducing our risk. It will make you less likely to get cancer or to have a bone fracture later in life. But it's never guaranteed, and that's the whole thing about risk—there's no 100 percent sure way to get rid of everything. But you're bringing that risk down a little bit, and that's the best we can do. Brennan: And what I like about your conversation with Tim is that, you know, it kind of sits in a middle ground, right? We can't 100 percent know that a certain supplement is going to increase our lifespan. And we can't know that a new superfood is going to definitely help us age up. But there are these tangible steps that we can work into our day to day at any point to commit to a practice of living healthier. Tayag: Yeah; we don't have all the answers, but we have some of the answers. Brennan: And I think I can sit in that. You know, that might be enough for me. And for the days that I can't, when I can't sit in that thought, you know—those are the days that I delight in jumping into water. [ Music. ] Tayag: That's all for this episode of How to Age Up. This episode was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayag, and co-hosted and produced by Natalie Brennan. Our editors are Claudine Ebeid and Jocelyn Frank. Fact-check by Ena Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smierciak. Rob also composed some of the music for this show. The executive producer of audio is Claudine Ebeid, and the managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez.
