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12-05-2025
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How to Age Up on a Warming Planet
Listen and subscribe here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Pocket Casts How should we think about aging when the impacts of climate change can make the future feel so uncertain? That's a question Sarah Ray, professor and chair of environmental studies at Cal Poly Humboldt, has been helping her students consider. Though climate anxiety can cause some to feel overwhelmed, Ray has tips for how to minimize doom loops and inaction. How to Age Up co-hosts Yasmin Tayag and Natalie Brennan talk about how current climate concerns compare to the existential crises of previous generations, and how to practice hope during uncertain Brennan: What did you want to be when you grew up? Yasmin Tayag: Honestly, Tomb Raider. Brennan: I hate to have to admit I have no idea what that is Tayag: Natalie! The iconic video game Lara Croft: Tomb Raider? Angelina Jolie's best movie role? She's a hot archeologist who travels around the world searching for lost artifacts and fighting off enemies. Brennan: I'm obsessed. That's actually perfect for you. The next logical step in your science-reporting journey. Tayag: It's still kind of my dream job. Brennan: Hey—I believe in you! :) Tayag: I'm Yasmin Tayag, a staff writer with The Atlantic. Brennan: And I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at The Atlantic. Tayag: This is How to Age Up. [Music ends.] Tayag: Natalie, what was your dream job? Brennan: I don't know that growing up I had a dream job. Tayag: That's very Gen Z of you. Brennan: What do you mean? Like, in a 'I don't dream of labor' way? Tayag: No; I've just been thinking a lot about how your generation struggles to imagine the future. Brennan: And can you blame us? Tayag: No. But it's something I think about with younger generations, too—I worry about the future of my son, Jaime, a lot. Brennan: Yeah. I mean, economically, politically—most of all because of climate change—I was already worried about a lot of these things when I was a teen, and that feeling has just become more intense as I've gotten older. So, yeah. I imagine that kids now, who are constantly exposed to fears about the climate from such a young age, picture an even bleaker future. Tayag: Right. But when you just rattled off that list, what happened to you? Brennan: What do you mean? Like, how do I feel right now? Tayag: Yeah. Brennan: Awful. Like, frozen. Tayag: And who wouldn't be? Psychiatrists have given what you're feeling a name: It's called climate anxiety. And in the same way in therapy you may work through paralysis in regards to your personal anxiety, scientists are starting to think through, psychologically, how we could move through our climate anxiety. Sarah Ray: 'Cause I'm that weird person who's like, No, we don't need action. We just need better thoughts. It's not about 10 things you can do to save the planet. There's a hundred million books out there. This is like 10 things you can think about to save the planet. Tayag: Natalie, that's Dr. Sarah Ray. She's a professor and chair of the environmental studies department at Cal Poly Humboldt. And she studies how emotions play into our thinking about the climate. She wrote the book A Field Guide to Climate Anxiety—and she pointed to one moment that really launched her into action about all this. [Music.] Ray: I was trying to do an activity with my students. Where I kind of guided them through almost a meditation, if you will, which was my first time ever doing anything weird like that. I was like, 'This is gonna be a little weird. You gotta just go with me on this.' And I had them kind of close their eyes and visualize a future that they would desire. Tayag: Mm-hmm. Ray: A future where everything that they had hoped for and worked for in their life had come to manifest and come to pass. And I asked them to feel it and smell it and taste it and all that. And the whole thing is very embodied, which is unusual for me at the time. And when the exercise ended, I expected them to come back after this trance I'd put them in, and have all these visions of utopia to share. And then, of course, what we would do is sort of backward design: 'Okay, what's the very next step to kind of get from here to there? Now that you've visualized what you want, let's start moving in that direction'—instead of constantly being gripped by fear of a future that they dread. Right? So with climate change and all of the things that are happening, one of the things I noticed with my students is that they didn't desire their future. They were afraid of it. Tayag: Oh! Ray: And so they turned to me, and they said, Sarah, we didn't, we couldn't really imagine a future. We don't have any tools for imagining what we would desire, and all we could imagine was, like, either blankness or the apocalypse. That they had seen in the most recent whatever, video or film or whatever that they'd seen, or news, right? Tayag: Yeah. Ray: So that was a real moment: a wake-up call for me. I thought, How can we expect these young people to do all the work we want them to do, to fix all the problems that are out there, if they don't even want to exist in that future? [Laughter.] Tayag: Yeah. Ray: They don't even desire anything about that future. Tayag: It's just so grim. Ray: It was really depressing. Tayag: It's really depressing! Ray: Yeah. I cried. Yeah; that was the first moment I thought, This is really bad. Tayag: So what happened next? Ray: So it wasn't just that they were living in a scary world; it was that they were getting information about a scary world in a very particular way. This was maybe 10 or 12 years ago. And the real shift towards all of us getting our news through social media, and the real shift to making the algorithms reinforce negativity, was really just beginning at that time. So that was the first step of trying to peel apart the layers of the onion. Are they gonna be able to live on a planet and grow food and breathe air and drink water? You know? And why would they have children in this world? And are they gonna retire? Or can they have a job that doesn't just add to the problem? How will they pay the bills? Why even go to college in this kind of world? And that's something that, like, Greta Thunberg really brought to the fore when she was like, I'm not gonna go to school, 'cause five years hence, when I get my degree, when I'm qualified to do anything about it, our planet will be radically different and I don't wanna wait around for that. That kind of impatience was something that I was really starting to detect in them. Tayag: One thing I hear so much in conversations about youth and climate dread is that, you know, older people always say, Oh, well, every generation had something to worry about. We had the nuclear threat; we had wartime dread. And so on. Is climate dread different from those past experiences? Ray: Yeah; I think that there's a 'yes and no' answer to that. The yes part of that answer is: It is just the same as all those other really difficult generational traumas in that the lessons that those folks learned by going through those experiences are things that young people need to get caught up on pretty quick. So I think about civil rights, or I think about, you know, the Holocaust, Vietnam War—all kinds of things that in the last few generations we've heard a lot about. And these people who have been sort of activists or involved in resistance movements in these spaces have had to overcome an incredible amount of stuff. They've had to sacrifice a lot. They've had to do the work without any evidence that it was gonna come out the way it did. The collective organizing skills—the kind of resilience and grit to do the work, the sense that the little things that you do—do matter, a lot. Those kinds of things are what I call climate wisdom. They're like wisdom that we get from the elders. You know, like we should take these tools from our elders who have gone through this stuff and ask them: How do they get through, how do they keep going? On the other hand, it is a qualitatively different problem. And the reason why I would say so is because the very functioning of the entire biosphere is at stake. And so all of the systems that humans rely on are going to be challenged and, uh, might in fact fall apart. Nuclear war, you know, might be something similar. Like, the annihilation of all life in one fell swoop feels scarier, in a way, than climate change. But it has the same kind of existential … the ability to grow food, to work, the ability to get water in our bodies, all of these things will be challenged. The very capacity of the Earth to produce the materials on which human civilization relies to function could be undermined. Tayag: Right. Ray: Is being undermined; is happening. It's happening. It's already on its path. [Music.] Tayag: Natalie, when I was talking with Professor Ray, that song 'I Melt With You' by Modern English was totally in my head. Do you know that one? Brennan: Remind me? Tayag: [Sings.] 'I'll stop the world and melt with you…' Brennan: Of course—I just wanted to make you sing. Tayag: Oh. [Laughter.] Well, it's actually about having sex when a nuclear bomb drops. Brennan: Oh, whoa! Tayag: That's why they melt. The song came out in 1982, during the Cold War. I imagine that the band grew up being bombarded with all this messaging about the nuclear threat, and so when I hear this song it sounds to me like they'd just accepted total annihilation as a very real possibility. Brennan: I don't want to downplay, in any way, the threat of nuclear war! But I do think that it's different—it is the threat of a possibility. It is something that could happen. Tayag: Whereas climate change is something that is happening. Brennan: Is happening, every day, and it feels like we are all walking around going about our days as the red button gets pushed, with no alarm. Tayag: And you think that the psychological impact is different? Brennan: Yes. What is so different to me about the emotions of this moment is that people are trying to make sense of what we rationally know to be true about climate change. And then there's anger and confusion about why we aren't doing more to stop it. Tayag: Right. The anxiety and anger that comes with feeling like society has decided that we are okay with our own destruction. Brennan: Exactly, and it feels sometimes like even if we were to do something it would not be enough. Tayag: Yeah; that, in part, is climate anxiety in action. There are things that people can do—have been doing—to limit that cognitive dissonance. To feel like their actions align with their beliefs. And it's something Professor Ray and I spoke a lot about. [Music.] Ray: Well, you maybe experienced, as I was describing, why this was qualitatively a unique threat. It doesn't really land well with one's nervous system. Tayag: Yeah. Ray: Right? Like, you take that information in, whether or not that's the first time you've ever heard that stuff or you've been hearing it for a long time. The nervous system, in order to keep homeostasis and to feel like it can function and keep going in the day, doesn't take that in very well. And we have particular patterns in our bodies about what we wanna do about that. The obvious ones that you're probably most familiar with are, like: fight, flight, or freeze. And I think that when young people are taking in this information and have been doing it for a long time, they they figure out how to move from the kind of shock of it to integrating it, to figuring out how to do something about it. And that is a whole series of things that they have maybe gone through by the time they were 15 or 16. And then they try to translate this to somebody who maybe has never thought about it. And I think that that's where the stress of that amygdala of those people they're talking to. There's some empathy there; there's some grace there around if this person's taking this in at all. That's taking a lot of courage. There's nothing about this information cognitively—in terms of our neuroscience, of our wiring and our brains—that can handle this. So it is actually far more natural for our brains to disavow, deny, put our heads in the sand. Because if you square this information with your daily life, there's a big cognitive dissonance as they call it. Tayag: So what are the ways that we should be teaching young people to acknowledge their feelings of dread and fear in a healthy way? Ray: One of the things that's happening is that there's a whole movement of climate-aware therapists, to figure out new tools that they didn't have before. 'Cause it's one thing to say uncertainty in your family. It's another thing to bring uncertainty of the planet into the therapy room. I think a lot of my students, for example, will tell me that they brought this up in therapy—and had their therapist tell them to stop consuming the news and to not worry about it. So that's not helpful. Tayag: No… Ray: Right? Like, that's just being told that your feelings are irrational, right? And that's never a good technique. Tayag: And also, that you have to completely detach from literally everything. That's not exactly feasible. Ray: If the therapists themselves haven't figured out how to face this kind of stuff, you can see why that would be happening. But there is an alternative, right? And that alternative is: Let's look clear-eyed about how bad things are, and let's have that be a call to action. Because it turns out that the kind of debilitating effects of climate anxiety are assuaged most effectively not when we do an action that solves the problem, which is really what you'd think it would be like. This is a problem that can't be solved by any one person's action. So why should I even do anything? That's what most young people feel, right? Like, I'm not even gonna try. But that's, um—that particular assumption rests on the idea that if we did the action, our climate anxiety would be assuaged by fixing it. It turns out that the psychologists who have studied this show that this is not true. The act of being in a group is actually the thing that alleviates anxiety and makes us feel efficacious, which is really an interesting and important tool. Especially, I think, in, um, culture that's so individualistic. So Bill McKibben is sort of famous for saying, you know, 'People constantly ask me all the time. You know: What's the most important, effective thing I can do as an individual?' And he always says, the one most important thing you can do is not be an individual. You know, not think of individualism as the mechanism by which this is gonna get accomplished. And it turns out, from a psychology perspective, it's not just good for the planet; that's actually good for our mental health. So that's really, I think, the key. How can we solve climate anxiety? Well, yeah; it'd be great to solve climate, that would be the main way. Sure. But the fact that that feels impossible actually causes that depression loop to get worse. So I think when we're talking about how to teach young people, or how to bring this up to young people, it's always with showing them models of how people are solving the problem. Tayag: Mm-hmm. Ray: Always, always, always—Because we're social creatures, psychologically, if we see other people doing things, we're way more likely to do something. And actually, it's an interesting piece of data that psychologists have also proved—that the vast majority of Americans think that only like 30 or 40 percent of other Americans care about climate change, when the number is more like 70 or 80 percent. So that right there accounts for a lot of our inaction. If we just think other people around us and our neighbors don't care, we're less likely to do stuff. Tayag: So I wanna go back a tiny bit. Because I wanted to tease out a bit more, you know, the consequences of not correcting or not teaching people how to deal with their climate feelings. So what exactly happens, from a psychological perspective, when a person feels that an issue is just too big to conquer? And, you know, how can we make that feel smaller? Ray: Psychologists often call this concept pseudo-inefficacy. And the definition of it is basically this: The negative feeling of not being able to solve the whole problem outweighs the positive feeling of being able to solve just a little part of it. With climate change, we're talking about this big, humongous, intractable problem that no one person could possibly touch. 'It's too big. I can't even face it. I'm gonna go and binge Netflix.' Right. I mean, that's how climate change is being addressed right now. So there are sort of two solutions to this, right? One is to frame the problem in smaller chunks: How do we break it up into small chunks, that any one person can feel like, Oh, I can get up in the morning and have that sense of accomplishment that I finished a task by the end of the day? Because—as we know from nudge psychology—that creates a feedback loop of positive reinforcement. We're more likely to get up the next morning and do it again, do some more. It feels good. And sometimes that means that the work that we're doing has nothing to do with climate change. It has to do with getting to know our neighbors. It has to do with building community trust. It has to do with all kinds of things that are going to cumulatively add up to building more resilience for what's coming. Tayag: Mm-hmm. So, frame things in smaller pieces. And you said there were two solutions? Ray: Yeah. The second dimension of solving this pseudo-inefficacy puzzle is to see ourselves as much bigger than we actually are. And so, a lot of what happens with sort of the way young people are raised is that the vast majority of what they're consuming is telling them that they don't have any power. That they don't have political power. And for the most part, unless they have a lot of money, they don't even have economic power. And so the sense of powerlessness—some people talk about this as learned powerlessness or manufactured powerlessness. Which is basically saying, We give up our power before we've even tried to exert it. And so what I try to do with young people is to show all the places that they do already have a lot of power. And it's not just economics; it's not even just politics. There's all kinds of social places and cultural places that they have power. They have power in being kind. They have power in being a role model. They have a power in throwing even the tiniest little bit of energy into a larger movement. When we are part of a larger movement, as part of a collective, we are magnified way more than just individual people. If you're feeling despair, you might be suffering from individualism, because really the cure is seeing yourself as part of a larger group. Tayag: So, you know, once people feel like they have a little more agency, a little more power, what's a tool for people to use when they're ready to start thinking about how to get involved? What's a small step we can take? Ray: People often think of action as, like, Oh, I'm gonna ride my bike to work, or I'm gonna join this march, or I'm gonna call my representatives. These are all really important things, and I'm not dismissing that. But I'm trying to break it down to even how to even get to the place where you could do me, my favorite one, the one I always have as my lifeline, is: As I'm consuming all this news, as I'm trying to understand the lay of the land—which is happening at a quick clip right now—I get really overwhelmed by the monster in the room. And I think of all of the fear I have, and my amygdala and my nervous system is just really agitated. And I will say that I'm in that state even talking to you right now. So it's helpful for me to redirect my attention. And it's also what neuroscientists will tell you to do in cognitive behavioral therapy. Tayag: Okay. Ray: Which is to redirect my attention to the thing that I love, because it turns out the fear and the anger that I feel are secondary emotions for my love, right? They are signposts that are helping me figure out what I love. And usually it's like, I love nature. I love my children, I love my students. I love justice and health. And the thing, the monster in the room, is so upsetting to me, because it's threatening those things that I love. Okay? So instead of just fighting the monster—which I feel I do not have any power to do—what I do have power to do is tend and nurture the things that I love so they grow. So, adrienne maree brown says: Feed what you want to grow. And this is a beautiful mantra for me that I hold onto when I'm feeling really overwhelmed. And that is very much about attention, really at the scale of attention. This is not about taking shorter showers. This is about 'What am I paying attention to?' It's very micro-scale. Tayag: Mm-hmm. And it's a reframing in itself, right? You know, Let's not focus on the monster; let's focus on tending the garden. Right. And doing so, I guess, motivates you to fight the monster so you can continue to tend the garden. Ray: Yeah. And maybe you titrate; maybe sometimes you have energy for fighting the monster. And maybe when you're feeling the most depleted and you don't even know what to put the next foot forward at, you think, Okay, I know I can nurture the thing I love. Okay, so how do I do that? And then the emotion of love turns out to be way more sustaining in terms of our energy and our resilience. That means that we can generate that energy that we need to go back and fight the monster. Tayag: Can you give me an example of turning your attention toward something you love? Maybe something from your own experience? Ray: So I stupidly have a terrible daily practice of looking at the news first thing in the morning. It's a terrible practice. But the way that I solve that practice, or the way that I heal around that practice, is that I immediately know that it's gonna leave me feeling really bad—so I need to have a rescue thing. And that thing is to turn right directly toward what I love. So I always have, once I put my phone down, I always have 15 things in front of me that I love. I've got my dogs, I've got my children, I've got my house, I've got my husband. I've got all the stuff that I know that—if I let the bad news get to me—I will actually feel like not giving them love; I will feel like withdrawing. And the real problem with living in a story of apocalypse is that if we are not thoughtful about it, it will make us want to withdraw even more. And so we really have to actively intervene. In my work life, this happens all the time as well. I often look to the administration or the people in charge and get despairing. No shade on them. They're just in their structure, you know, doing the things they have to do. You know? And I get, I get despairing, and I think: I can't control that thing. I cannot get into the president's head and have them think differently. And then I immediately think, Why am I in this job? I should just quit. I hate this. Right? This gives me, sends me in—just the scale of my job sends me into cynicism and burnout. Tayag: The despair loop. Ray: Despair loop, right? And I'm like, I'm in it. I'm in it, I'm in it. So how do I then use the mantra—'feed what you want to grow'—to get outta that? I immediately think, What gives me pleasure here? I really touch into that, and I spend some time thinking about it. I know that it is a great, an incredible, vocation and calling I feel—to have an effect on my students. Okay, so what I'm afraid of is that this scary monster in the room is gonna destroy my students' capacities and experiences. How can I turn and use the position that I have—the relative power that I do have—to have an effect in that space? And so I often have this 'turn to my students' moment, where I'm like, Remember that I'm here for the students. Okay, let's go back to that. 'Cause once I go back to that, my cup is always full. I come away from my classes always feeling like, Ah, this is what I'm here for. This is the juice. [Music.] Brennan: Yasmin, this conversation is so helpful, because I feel so much shame whenever I get that feeling that this is all too overwhelming and I just want to run away to our lavender farm! Tayag: Same, but even the lavender farm will be affected by climate change. Brennan: Well … it's true! But this instinct to want to run away or to isolate when there's a threat is real. Right? I try to at least remind myself that's just how, evolutionarily, we're wired to react to danger. Tayag: Yeah. This reminds me of one review paper on the threat of nuclear war that found that it made adults prone to fantasy and make-believe—like, as a way to respond to the danger. I just finished a fantasy book called Legends & Lattes that was a nice temporary escape. Brennan: You really are such a nerd. I think fantasy is a great way to recharge. It's okay to take a break, to get you back into the game. That feels very different from avoidance or denial. Because the only way to truly push through the overwhelm and paralysis is to figure out what you need in order to be able to take action after you've had that rest. Tayag: Exactly. If it wasn't for Legends & Lattes I wouldn't have had the will or brainpower to read that review paper I mentioned. But yes: Addressing these issues head on is how to move through them. The nuclear war study even actually said that parents shouldn't ignore their kids' anxieties and misrepresent reality to them—kids who were more aware of the situation actually tended to be the most optimistic. Brennan: I think that is definitely something we need to focus on now with climate change, too! I saw a survey that most teens learn about climate change from the internet. And so when we're thinking about how an entire generation is aging up and learning about such a huge and existential issue, we want to figure out how to facilitate those conversations, right? The same way we do when we talk to children about death or divorce or illness. Learning about this alone—on your own, on the internet—can make the problem a lot bigger and lonelier. Tayag: I actually think the 'turning your attention toward love to break out of overwhelming thoughts or paralysis' is a practice that would be so helpful to teach children and teens to help them with so many aspects of aging, not just climate change. Brennan: Right, like with first heartbreak! Or puberty! Tayag: Applying to college… adolescence is just such an overwhelming part of aging, and the earlier you work on these habits, the better prepared you are for them when the overwhelm pops up in bigger ways. [Music.] Tayag: We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back: Ray: Oh, you guys wanna go there? Tayag: Hey, aging up is complicated, and we're willing to get into it. [Midroll.] Tayag: So, Professor Ray, I'm curious, among your students, you know, what else are you noticing that affects them, or that they're thinking about when it comes to aging up in a very uncertain world? Ray: Absolutely: The No. 1 thing is economic precarity. No. 1. In fact, I would say that even overrides climate. And then the climate stuff might come into focus more through college classes. Or like—the intersection of climate and how climate change is going to exacerbate existing inequalities and problems in the world. So climate change is often called the great magnifier, right? Like, all the inequalities that exist, and all the places where people are already suffering, are just gonna get much worse. So the main thing that they've been taught as they're growing up is economics, right? That going to college is really expensive. This has really gotta be worth it, right? Tayag: Yeah! A lot of younger people feel like they are worse off than their parents' generation—I mean, I definitely do—even if statistically, it still isn't clear if we actually are. But I can see how that would play into questions about whether college is worth it, if it doesn't guarantee them a job. Ray: Yeah. In that sense of Maybe I can escape that problem individually, myself. Right? With my own marriage or my own hard work and my own degree. And so there's the scarcity politics of that—perpetuates that individualism, perpetuates that fear, perpetuates this cycle that you just talked about. The doom loop. Tayag: You know, so much of our conversation today has touched on this theme of individual versus collective action, which is a theme that's come up a lot this season. Ray: Yeah; if we rely on a sense of being able to do this ourselves, we will always fall short. We will always feel like we're failing. And the feeling of failing, as we just discussed, doesn't generate more engagement. [Laughter.] So that's a model that just can't work. That can't work for where we're going. There's all kinds of ways that people are trying to create alternative models for how they would live. There's research out there that says that the best investment you can make in making your home, or yourself, be safe in a natural disaster is to have good neighborly trust—have good relationships with your neighbors. That makes intuitive sense. These are the people who, like, when all communication breaks down, are gonna be the people you rely on to, like— Tayag: Run across the yard! Ray: Run across the yard, help you with some extra water or whatever. And so it makes sense. But it's not something that people are spending every day thinking about: How do I build trust with my neighbors today? You know? But one of my neighbors in the last couple of months has decided, once a month, to have a bunch of people she likes in the neighborhood over for tea on Sunday. And she did this because she just felt desperate and alone. Then when I started to bring some of this research in, she was like, Oh my gosh, I didn't realize I was doing this political action. By, like, attending to my aloneness in this particular way. That's actually very functional, very utilitarian—but also has a side effect of just feeling good. Tayag: Yeah; I mean bringing together neighbors, especially if they're from different backgrounds or life experiences, or ages, to discuss climate—that totally is a political action! There's a lot of intersectionality at play in the groups who are most active in the climate movement. This isn't just about young people and their climate anxiety. Can you tell me more about the people who are showing up? Ray: So there's all kinds of reasons that, depending on your relative vulnerability, you might care more about climate change. Queer communities care more about climate change than straight communities. There's data also that shows that Latinx people care about climate change more than white people by double digits. And, like in a sort of hierarchy of order: Latinx communities, then Black communities, and then white communities are like the bottom of the list. Tayag: Interesting. Ray: The theory there is that the more vulnerable a community is to climate change itself—and the less faith they have that the government will help them, because of historical structural oppression—the more worried they'll be about it, right? The vast majority of times when—especially—people with power experience fear around environmental problems, what often happens is not that they go about creating more just structures and distributing wealth more equally and making sure people who are vulnerable are supported. In fact, the opposite usually happens with people who are already in positions of power. Generally speaking, when they hear about climate-change threats, they tend to hoard resources more. They tend to actually enact violence against people who they think of as threatening those resources or who are causing the problems in the first place. So there's all this language around immigrants coming to America and having a greater ecological footprint when they get to America, and therefore 'That's why we shouldn't allow immigrants into America.' This kind of argument, which is often called eco-fascism, can lead to some pretty, well, racist ideas, underwritten by climate change falsely. And even violence. Tayag: That's really concerning. The tendency, by some, to find scapegoats to try and just evade personal responsibility—that actually makes me think of another, pretty extreme, way of evading the climate crisis. It's this idea that we should just escape Earth entirely. Like, Earth is screwed, so let's go move to Mars. It's obviously still a very moonshot idea, but it does come up! And it gets a lot of investment from really wealthy billionaires, like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos. They've both put a lot of money into exploring space. What do you make of that—is that a valid way to be dealing with climate anxiety? Ray: So the idea that we might be able to escape the limitations of capitalism—of the planet's limits, of resource limitations—that's really the fantasy here, right? So when we hear about economists or fossil-fuel folks saying the goal of the future is not to get rid of climate change; it is to separate humans' dependence on the planet systems. That's what they explicitly say is the goal. So the next obvious conclusion to that—if you're one of those tech bros who's into that kind of stuff—is to think, Well, the best way to do that is to find other planets. Right? And there's a fantasy of transcendence there. Of transcending the messiness of human life, using money to transcend the planet's limits, using money to transcend the muckiness of inequality and the social movements. So that might arise from that. We're seeing so much evidence of wanting that just to go away … all that stuff to just go away. Tayag: Yeah. It's, you know, the escape plan. That's a withdrawal in itself. Ray: Yeah. Tayag: It puts the focus back on the individual and ensuring your own survival. And I think that's the opposite of what we need. Ray: Yeah, absolutely. It's the opposite of what we need. And I think that's the nervous-system solution there, right? Like, if you think about when we perceive big threats, if we don't train our nervous system culturally or individually, we don't have a process by which we train our nervous system to respond to threats through social engagement, it's very possible that our response might be 'flight or fight or freeze,' or some of these other—maybe less constructive or less healing—responses that actually don't get to the root cause of the problem at all. Escape is a real nervous-system response. It's legitimate. But it's not medicine for the planet's woes. Tayag: Well, Professor Ray, thank you so much for being here today. Ray: Thanks so much. Brennan: Yasmin, I feel like I am going to have Professor Ray's voice in my head—reminding me that if you're not thoughtful about it, apocalyptic living will lead you to withdraw for quite some time. Tayag: Apocalyptic living begets more apocalyptic living! Brennan: No, truly. I mean, we're now at about five years out from the start of the pandemic. And I only now feel like I am at a place where I am ready to start unlearning a lot of the habits that I developed during that time, which led to a lot of isolation. I find that I withdraw as default, now. Tayag: Have you read Derek Thompson's Atlantic piece 'The Anti-Social Century'? Brennan: You know, I really could have used hearing your interview with Professor Ray before I read that piece—because it definitely led to a lot of overwhelm! The piece does a beautiful job of outlining how American society is on an anti-social streak. And how solitude has almost been marketed to us as luxury. Tayag: Me time! Brennan: Right, me time: ordering takeout, meditating. Going to work out, headphones in. I have really bought into the idea that to recharge is to be alone. Tayag: Mm-hmm. Brennan: And what we've been hearing throughout this season, again and again, is that to live a healthy, long life is to instead find our way back to a social society. Tayag: Right. We set out to answer the question of how to age up—and we heard a lot, from experts in vastly different fields, about how to connect. Brennan: Totally. It's funny the lengths we'll go to try and figure out the secret to living longer, when the answer—if there is to be any one singular answer—is to think less about yourself as the main part of the equation. Tayag: I read something recently that really captures this sentiment—on the vulnerability of being an individual and the possibility and power in teaming up. It acknowledged what so many of our experts have been saying. Our ability to age up relies on pushing back against forces as huge as climate change, ageism, housing insecurity … but you just can't do it alone. It says the more you band together with others—first with one person, then two, then even more people—the better chances you have at succeeding. Brennan: Yasmin, are you quoting a poem to me? Tayag: The tables have turned. To end this season, I'd love to read you part of a poem. Is that okay? Brennan: Welcomed, even. Tayag: This is a passage from the poem 'The Low Road' by Marge Piercy: With six you can rent a whole house, eat pie for dinner with no seconds, and hold a fund raising party. A dozen make a demonstration. A hundred fill a hall. Tayag: And the poem goes on to drive home the point that there's power in those numbers. It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again and they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more. Tayag: That's all for this season of How to Age Up. How to Age Up was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayag. Brennan: And co-hosted and produced by me, Natalie Brennan. Tayag: Our editors are Claudine Ebeid and Jocelyn Frank. Fact-check by Ena Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smierciak. Rob also composed some of the music for this show. The executive producer of audio is Claudine Ebeid, and the managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez. Brennan: How To will be back with a new season very soon. Article originally published at The Atlantic
Atlantic
12-05-2025
- Entertainment
- Atlantic
How to Age Up on a Warming Planet
How should we think about aging when the impacts of climate change can make the future feel so uncertain? That's a question Sarah Ray, professor and chair of environmental studies at Cal Poly Humboldt, has been helping her students consider. Though climate anxiety can cause some to feel overwhelmed, Ray has tips for how to minimize doom loops and inaction. How to Age Up co-hosts Yasmin Tayag and Natalie Brennan talk about how current climate concerns compare to the existential crises of previous generations, and how to practice hope during uncertain times. The following is a transcript: Natalie Brennan: What did you want to be when you grew up? Yasmin Tayag: Honestly, Tomb Raider. Brennan: I hate to have to admit I have no idea what that is Tayag: Natalie! The iconic video game Lara Croft: Tomb Raider? Angelina Jolie's best movie role? She's a hot archeologist who travels around the world searching for lost artifacts and fighting off enemies. Brennan: I'm obsessed. That's actually perfect for you. The next logical step in your science-reporting journey. Tayag: It's still kind of my dream job. Brennan: Hey—I believe in you! :) Tayag: I'm Yasmin Tayag, a staff writer with The Atlantic. Brennan: And I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at The Atlantic. Tayag: This is How to Age Up. [ Music ends.] Tayag: Natalie, what was your dream job? Brennan: I don't know that growing up I had a dream job. Tayag: That's very Gen Z of you. Brennan: What do you mean? Like, in a 'I don't dream of labor' way? Tayag: No; I've just been thinking a lot about how your generation struggles to imagine the future. Brennan: And can you blame us? Tayag: No. But it's something I think about with younger generations, too—I worry about the future of my son, Jaime, a lot. Brennan: Yeah. I mean, economically, politically—most of all because of climate change—I was already worried about a lot of these things when I was a teen, and that feeling has just become more intense as I've gotten older. So, yeah. I imagine that kids now, who are constantly exposed to fears about the climate from such a young age, picture an even bleaker future. Tayag: Right. But when you just rattled off that list, what happened to you? Brennan: What do you mean? Like, how do I feel right now? Tayag: Yeah. Brennan: Awful. Like, frozen. Tayag: And who wouldn't be? Psychiatrists have given what you're feeling a name: It's called climate anxiety. And in the same way in therapy you may work through paralysis in regards to your personal anxiety, scientists are starting to think through, psychologically, how we could move through our climate anxiety. Sarah Ray: 'Cause I'm that weird person who's like, No, we don't need action. We just need better thoughts. It's not about 10 things you can do to save the planet. There's a hundred million books out there. This is like 10 things you can think about to save the planet. Tayag: Natalie, that's Dr. Sarah Ray. She's a professor and chair of the environmental studies department at Cal Poly Humboldt. And she studies how emotions play into our thinking about the climate. She wrote the book A Field Guide to Climate Anxiety —and she pointed to one moment that really launched her into action about all this. [ Music.] Ray: I was trying to do an activity with my students. Where I kind of guided them through almost a meditation, if you will, which was my first time ever doing anything weird like that. I was like, 'This is gonna be a little weird. You gotta just go with me on this.' And I had them kind of close their eyes and visualize a future that they would desire. Tayag: Mm-hmm. Ray: A future where everything that they had hoped for and worked for in their life had come to manifest and come to pass. And I asked them to feel it and smell it and taste it and all that. And the whole thing is very embodied, which is unusual for me at the time. And when the exercise ended, I expected them to come back after this trance I'd put them in, and have all these visions of utopia to share. And then, of course, what we would do is sort of backward design: 'Okay, what's the very next step to kind of get from here to there? Now that you've visualized what you want, let's start moving in that direction'—instead of constantly being gripped by fear of a future that they dread. Right? So with climate change and all of the things that are happening, one of the things I noticed with my students is that they didn't desire their future. They were afraid of it. Tayag: Oh! Ray: And so they turned to me, and they said, Sarah, we didn't, we couldn't really imagine a future. We don't have any tools for imagining what we would desire, and all we could imagine was, like, either blankness or the apocalypse. That they had seen in the most recent whatever, video or film or whatever that they'd seen, or news, right? Tayag: Yeah. Ray: So that was a real moment: a wake-up call for me. I thought, How can we expect these young people to do all the work we want them to do, to fix all the problems that are out there, if they don't even want to exist in that future? [ Laughter. ] Tayag: Yeah. Ray: They don't even desire anything about that future. Tayag: It's just so grim. Ray: It was really depressing. Tayag: It's really depressing! Ray: Yeah. I cried. Yeah; that was the first moment I thought, This is really bad. Tayag: So what happened next? Ray: So it wasn't just that they were living in a scary world; it was that they were getting information about a scary world in a very particular way. This was maybe 10 or 12 years ago. And the real shift towards all of us getting our news through social media, and the real shift to making the algorithms reinforce negativity, was really just beginning at that time. So that was the first step of trying to peel apart the layers of the onion. Are they gonna be able to live on a planet and grow food and breathe air and drink water? You know? And why would they have children in this world? And are they gonna retire? Or can they have a job that doesn't just add to the problem? How will they pay the bills? Why even go to college in this kind of world? And that's something that, like, Greta Thunberg really brought to the fore when she was like, I'm not gonna go to school, 'cause five years hence, when I get my degree, when I'm qualified to do anything about it, our planet will be radically different and I don't wanna wait around for that. That kind of impatience was something that I was really starting to detect in them. Tayag: One thing I hear so much in conversations about youth and climate dread is that, you know, older people always say, Oh, well, every generation had something to worry about. We had the nuclear threat; we had wartime dread. And so on. Is climate dread different from those past experiences? Ray: Yeah; I think that there's a 'yes and no' answer to that. The yes part of that answer is: It is just the same as all those other really difficult generational traumas in that the lessons that those folks learned by going through those experiences are things that young people need to get caught up on pretty quick. So I think about civil rights, or I think about, you know, the Holocaust, Vietnam War—all kinds of things that in the last few generations we've heard a lot about. And these people who have been sort of activists or involved in resistance movements in these spaces have had to overcome an incredible amount of stuff. They've had to sacrifice a lot. They've had to do the work without any evidence that it was gonna come out the way it did. The collective organizing skills—the kind of resilience and grit to do the work, the sense that the little things that you do—do matter, a lot. Those kinds of things are what I call climate wisdom. They're like wisdom that we get from the elders. You know, like we should take these tools from our elders who have gone through this stuff and ask them: How do they get through, how do they keep going? On the other hand, it is a qualitatively different problem. And the reason why I would say so is because the very functioning of the entire biosphere is at stake. And so all of the systems that humans rely on are going to be challenged and, uh, might in fact fall apart. Nuclear war, you know, might be something similar. Like, the annihilation of all life in one fell swoop feels scarier, in a way, than climate change. But it has the same kind of existential … the ability to grow food, to work, the ability to get water in our bodies, all of these things will be challenged. The very capacity of the Earth to produce the materials on which human civilization relies to function could be undermined. Ray: Is being undermined; is happening. It's happening. It's already on its path. [ Music. ] Tayag: Natalie, when I was talking with Professor Ray, that song 'I Melt With You' by Modern English was totally in my head. Do you know that one? Brennan: Remind me? Tayag: [ Sings.] 'I'll stop the world and melt with you…' Brennan: Of course—I just wanted to make you sing. Tayag: Oh. [ Laughter. ] Well, it's actually about having sex when a nuclear bomb drops. Brennan: Oh, whoa! Tayag: That's why they melt. The song came out in 1982, during the Cold War. I imagine that the band grew up being bombarded with all this messaging about the nuclear threat, and so when I hear this song it sounds to me like they'd just accepted total annihilation as a very real possibility. Brennan: I don't want to downplay, in any way, the threat of nuclear war! But I do think that it's different—it is the threat of a possibility. It is something that could happen. Tayag: Whereas climate change is something that is happening. Brennan: Is happening, every day, and it feels like we are all walking around going about our days as the red button gets pushed, with no alarm. Tayag: And you think that the psychological impact is different? Brennan: Yes. What is so different to me about the emotions of this moment is that people are trying to make sense of what we rationally know to be true about climate change. And then there's anger and confusion about why we aren't doing more to stop it. Tayag: Right. The anxiety and anger that comes with feeling like society has decided that we are okay with our own destruction. Brennan: Exactly, and it feels sometimes like even if we were to do something it would not be enough. Tayag: Yeah; that, in part, is climate anxiety in action. There are things that people can do—have been doing—to limit that cognitive dissonance. To feel like their actions align with their beliefs. And it's something Professor Ray and I spoke a lot about. [ Music.] Ray: Well, you maybe experienced, as I was describing, why this was qualitatively a unique threat. It doesn't really land well with one's nervous system. Tayag: Yeah. Ray: Right? Like, you take that information in, whether or not that's the first time you've ever heard that stuff or you've been hearing it for a long time. The nervous system, in order to keep homeostasis and to feel like it can function and keep going in the day, doesn't take that in very well. And we have particular patterns in our bodies about what we wanna do about that. The obvious ones that you're probably most familiar with are, like: fight, flight, or freeze. And I think that when young people are taking in this information and have been doing it for a long time, they they figure out how to move from the kind of shock of it to integrating it, to figuring out how to do something about it. And that is a whole series of things that they have maybe gone through by the time they were 15 or 16. And then they try to translate this to somebody who maybe has never thought about it. And I think that that's where the stress of that amygdala of those people they're talking to. There's some empathy there; there's some grace there around if this person's taking this in at all. That's taking a lot of courage. There's nothing about this information cognitively—in terms of our neuroscience, of our wiring and our brains—that can handle this. So it is actually far more natural for our brains to disavow, deny, put our heads in the sand. Because if you square this information with your daily life, there's a big cognitive dissonance as they call it. Tayag: So what are the ways that we should be teaching young people to acknowledge their feelings of dread and fear in a healthy way? Ray: One of the things that's happening is that there's a whole movement of climate-aware therapists, to figure out new tools that they didn't have before. 'Cause it's one thing to say uncertainty in your family. It's another thing to bring uncertainty of the planet into the therapy room. I think a lot of my students, for example, will tell me that they brought this up in therapy—and had their therapist tell them to stop consuming the news and to not worry about it. So that's not helpful. Tayag: No… Ray: Right? Like, that's just being told that your feelings are irrational, right? And that's never a good technique. Tayag: And also, that you have to completely detach from literally everything. That's not exactly feasible. Ray: If the therapists themselves haven't figured out how to face this kind of stuff, you can see why that would be happening. But there is an alternative, right? And that alternative is: Let's look clear-eyed about how bad things are, and let's have that be a call to action. Because it turns out that the kind of debilitating effects of climate anxiety are assuaged most effectively not when we do an action that solves the problem, which is really what you'd think it would be like. This is a problem that can't be solved by any one person's action. So why should I even do anything? That's what most young people feel, right? Like, I'm not even gonna try. But that's, um—that particular assumption rests on the idea that if we did the action, our climate anxiety would be assuaged by fixing it. It turns out that the psychologists who have studied this show that this is not true. The act of being in a group is actually the thing that alleviates anxiety and makes us feel efficacious, which is really an interesting and important tool. Especially, I think, in, um, culture that's so individualistic. So Bill McKibben is sort of famous for saying, you know, 'People constantly ask me all the time. You know: What's the most important, effective thing I can do as an individual? ' And he always says, the one most important thing you can do is not be an individual. You know, not think of individualism as the mechanism by which this is gonna get accomplished. And it turns out, from a psychology perspective, it's not just good for the planet; that's actually good for our mental health. So that's really, I think, the key. How can we solve climate anxiety? Well, yeah; it'd be great to solve climate, that would be the main way. Sure. But the fact that that feels impossible actually causes that depression loop to get worse. So I think when we're talking about how to teach young people, or how to bring this up to young people, it's always with showing them models of how people are solving the problem. Tayag: Mm-hmm. Ray: Always, always, always—Because we're social creatures, psychologically, if we see other people doing things, we're way more likely to do something. And actually, it's an interesting piece of data that psychologists have also proved—that the vast majority of Americans think that only like 30 or 40 percent of other Americans care about climate change, when the number is more like 70 or 80 percent. So that right there accounts for a lot of our inaction. If we just think other people around us and our neighbors don't care, we're less likely to do stuff. Tayag: So I wanna go back a tiny bit. Because I wanted to tease out a bit more, you know, the consequences of not correcting or not teaching people how to deal with their climate feelings. So what exactly happens, from a psychological perspective, when a person feels that an issue is just too big to conquer? And, you know, how can we make that feel smaller? Ray: Psychologists often call this concept pseudo-inefficacy. And the definition of it is basically this: The negative feeling of not being able to solve the whole problem outweighs the positive feeling of being able to solve just a little part of it. With climate change, we're talking about this big, humongous, intractable problem that no one person could possibly touch. 'It's too big. I can't even face it. I'm gonna go and binge Netflix.' Right. I mean, that's how climate change is being addressed right now. So there are sort of two solutions to this, right? One is to frame the problem in smaller chunks: How do we break it up into small chunks, that any one person can feel like, Oh, I can get up in the morning and have that sense of accomplishment that I finished a task by the end of the day? Because—as we know from nudge psychology—that creates a feedback loop of positive reinforcement. We're more likely to get up the next morning and do it again, do some more. It feels good. And sometimes that means that the work that we're doing has nothing to do with climate change. It has to do with getting to know our neighbors. It has to do with building community trust. It has to do with all kinds of things that are going to cumulatively add up to building more resilience for what's coming. Tayag: Mm-hmm. So, frame things in smaller pieces. And you said there were two solutions? Ray: Yeah. The second dimension of solving this pseudo-inefficacy puzzle is to see ourselves as much bigger than we actually are. And so, a lot of what happens with sort of the way young people are raised is that the vast majority of what they're consuming is telling them that they don't have any power. That they don't have political power. And for the most part, unless they have a lot of money, they don't even have economic power. And so the sense of powerlessness—some people talk about this as learned powerlessness or manufactured powerlessness. Which is basically saying, We give up our power before we've even tried to exert it. And so what I try to do with young people is to show all the places that they do already have a lot of power. And it's not just economics; it's not even just politics. There's all kinds of social places and cultural places that they have power. They have power in being kind. They have power in being a role model. They have a power in throwing even the tiniest little bit of energy into a larger movement. When we are part of a larger movement, as part of a collective, we are magnified way more than just individual people. If you're feeling despair, you might be suffering from individualism, because really the cure is seeing yourself as part of a larger group. Tayag: So, you know, once people feel like they have a little more agency, a little more power, what's a tool for people to use when they're ready to start thinking about how to get involved? What's a small step we can take? Ray: People often think of action as, like, Oh, I'm gonna ride my bike to work, or I'm gonna join this march, or I'm gonna call my representatives. These are all really important things, and I'm not dismissing that. But I'm trying to break it down to even how to even get to the place where you could do me, my favorite one, the one I always have as my lifeline, is: As I'm consuming all this news, as I'm trying to understand the lay of the land—which is happening at a quick clip right now—I get really overwhelmed by the monster in the room. And I think of all of the fear I have, and my amygdala and my nervous system is just really agitated. And I will say that I'm in that state even talking to you right now. So it's helpful for me to redirect my attention. And it's also what neuroscientists will tell you to do in cognitive behavioral therapy. Tayag: Okay. Ray: Which is to redirect my attention to the thing that I love, because it turns out the fear and the anger that I feel are secondary emotions for my love, right? They are signposts that are helping me figure out what I love. And usually it's like, I love nature. I love my children, I love my students. I love justice and health. And the thing, the monster in the room, is so upsetting to me, because it's threatening those things that I love. Okay? So instead of just fighting the monster—which I feel I do not have any power to do—what I do have power to do is tend and nurture the things that I love so they grow. So, adrienne maree brown says: Feed what you want to grow. And this is a beautiful mantra for me that I hold onto when I'm feeling really overwhelmed. And that is very much about attention, really at the scale of attention. This is not about taking shorter showers. This is about 'What am I paying attention to?' It's very micro-scale. Tayag: Mm-hmm. And it's a reframing in itself, right? You know, Let's not focus on the monster; let's focus on tending the garden. Right. And doing so, I guess, motivates you to fight the monster so you can continue to tend the garden. Ray: Yeah. And maybe you titrate; maybe sometimes you have energy for fighting the monster. And maybe when you're feeling the most depleted and you don't even know what to put the next foot forward at, you think, Okay, I know I can nurture the thing I love. Okay, so how do I do that? And then the emotion of love turns out to be way more sustaining in terms of our energy and our resilience. That means that we can generate that energy that we need to go back and fight the monster. Tayag: Can you give me an example of turning your attention toward something you love? Maybe something from your own experience? Ray: So I stupidly have a terrible daily practice of looking at the news first thing in the morning. It's a terrible practice. But the way that I solve that practice, or the way that I heal around that practice, is that I immediately know that it's gonna leave me feeling really bad—so I need to have a rescue thing. And that thing is to turn right directly toward what I love. So I always have, once I put my phone down, I always have 15 things in front of me that I love. I've got my dogs, I've got my children, I've got my house, I've got my husband. I've got all the stuff that I know that—if I let the bad news get to me—I will actually feel like not giving them love; I will feel like withdrawing. And the real problem with living in a story of apocalypse is that if we are not thoughtful about it, it will make us want to withdraw even more. And so we really have to actively intervene. In my work life, this happens all the time as well. I often look to the administration or the people in charge and get despairing. No shade on them. They're just in their structure, you know, doing the things they have to do. You know? And I get, I get despairing, and I think: I can't control that thing. I cannot get into the president's head and have them think differently. And then I immediately think, Why am I in this job? I should just quit. I hate this. Right? This gives me, sends me in—just the scale of my job sends me into cynicism and burnout. Tayag: The despair loop. Ray: Despair loop, right? And I'm like, I'm in it. I'm in it, I'm in it. So how do I then use the mantra—'feed what you want to grow'—to get outta that? I immediately think, What gives me pleasure here? I really touch into that, and I spend some time thinking about it. I know that it is a great, an incredible, vocation and calling I feel—to have an effect on my students. Okay, so what I'm afraid of is that this scary monster in the room is gonna destroy my students' capacities and experiences. How can I turn and use the position that I have—the relative power that I do have—to have an effect in that space? And so I often have this 'turn to my students' moment, where I'm like, Remember that I'm here for the students. Okay, let's go back to that. 'Cause once I go back to that, my cup is always full. I come away from my classes always feeling like, Ah, this is what I'm here for. This is the juice. [ Music. ] Brennan: Yasmin, this conversation is so helpful, because I feel so much shame whenever I get that feeling that this is all too overwhelming and I just want to run away to our lavender farm! Tayag: Same, but even the lavender farm will be affected by climate change. Brennan: Well … it's true! But this instinct to want to run away or to isolate when there's a threat is real. Right? I try to at least remind myself that's just how, evolutionarily, we're wired to react to danger. Tayag: Yeah. This reminds me of one review paper on the threat of nuclear war that found that it made adults prone to fantasy and make-believe—like, as a way to respond to the danger. I just finished a fantasy book called Legends & Lattes that was a nice temporary escape. Brennan: You really are such a nerd. I think fantasy is a great way to recharge. It's okay to take a break, to get you back into the game. That feels very different from avoidance or denial. Because the only way to truly push through the overwhelm and paralysis is to figure out what you need in order to be able to take action after you've had that rest. Tayag: Exactly. If it wasn't for Legends & Lattes I wouldn't have had the will or brainpower to read that review paper I mentioned. But yes: Addressing these issues head on is how to move through them. The nuclear war study even actually said that parents shouldn't ignore their kids' anxieties and misrepresent reality to them—kids who were more aware of the situation actually tended to be the most optimistic. Brennan: I think that is definitely something we need to focus on now with climate change, too! I saw a survey that most teens learn about climate change from the internet. And so when we're thinking about how an entire generation is aging up and learning about such a huge and existential issue, we want to figure out how to facilitate those conversations, right? The same way we do when we talk to children about death or divorce or illness. Learning about this alone—on your own, on the internet—can make the problem a lot bigger and lonelier. Tayag: I actually think the 'turning your attention toward love to break out of overwhelming thoughts or paralysis' is a practice that would be so helpful to teach children and teens to help them with so many aspects of aging, not just climate change. Brennan: Right, like with first heartbreak! Or puberty! Tayag: Applying to college… adolescence is just such an overwhelming part of aging, and the earlier you work on these habits, the better prepared you are for them when the overwhelm pops up in bigger ways. Tayag: So, Professor Ray, I'm curious, among your students, you know, what else are you noticing that affects them, or that they're thinking about when it comes to aging up in a very uncertain world? Ray: Absolutely: The No. 1 thing is economic precarity. No. 1. In fact, I would say that even overrides climate. And then the climate stuff might come into focus more through college classes. Or like—the intersection of climate and how climate change is going to exacerbate existing inequalities and problems in the world. So climate change is often called the great magnifier, right? Like, all the inequalities that exist, and all the places where people are already suffering, are just gonna get much worse. So the main thing that they've been taught as they're growing up is economics, right? That going to college is really expensive. This has really gotta be worth it, right? Tayag: Yeah! A lot of younger people feel like they are worse off than their parents' generation—I mean, I definitely do—even if statistically, it still isn't clear if we actually are. But I can see how that would play into questions about whether college is worth it, if it doesn't guarantee them a job. Ray: Yeah. In that sense of Maybe I can escape that problem individually, myself. Right? With my own marriage or my own hard work and my own degree. And so there's the scarcity politics of that—perpetuates that individualism, perpetuates that fear, perpetuates this cycle that you just talked about. The doom loop. Tayag: You know, so much of our conversation today has touched on this theme of individual versus collective action, which is a theme that's come up a lot this season. Ray: Yeah; if we rely on a sense of being able to do this ourselves, we will always fall short. We will always feel like we're failing. And the feeling of failing, as we just discussed, doesn't generate more engagement. [ Laughter.] So that's a model that just can't work. That can't work for where we're going. There's all kinds of ways that people are trying to create alternative models for how they would live. There's research out there that says that the best investment you can make in making your home, or yourself, be safe in a natural disaster is to have good neighborly trust—have good relationships with your neighbors. That makes intuitive sense. These are the people who, like, when all communication breaks down, are gonna be the people you rely on to, like— Tayag: Run across the yard! Ray: Run across the yard, help you with some extra water or whatever. And so it makes sense. But it's not something that people are spending every day thinking about: How do I build trust with my neighbors today? You know? But one of my neighbors in the last couple of months has decided, once a month, to have a bunch of people she likes in the neighborhood over for tea on Sunday. And she did this because she just felt desperate and alone. Then when I started to bring some of this research in, she was like, Oh my gosh, I didn't realize I was doing this political action. By, like, attending to my aloneness in this particular way. That's actually very functional, very utilitarian—but also has a side effect of just feeling good. Tayag: Yeah; I mean bringing together neighbors, especially if they're from different backgrounds or life experiences, or ages, to discuss climate—that totally is a political action! There's a lot of intersectionality at play in the groups who are most active in the climate movement. This isn't just about young people and their climate anxiety. Can you tell me more about the people who are showing up? Ray: So there's all kinds of reasons that, depending on your relative vulnerability, you might care more about climate change. Queer communities care more about climate change than straight communities. There's data also that shows that Latinx people care about climate change more than white people by double digits. And, like in a sort of hierarchy of order: Latinx communities, then Black communities, and then white communities are like the bottom of the list. Tayag: Interesting. Ray: The theory there is that the more vulnerable a community is to climate change itself—and the less faith they have that the government will help them, because of historical structural oppression—the more worried they'll be about it, right? The vast majority of times when—especially—people with power experience fear around environmental problems, what often happens is not that they go about creating more just structures and distributing wealth more equally and making sure people who are vulnerable are supported. In fact, the opposite usually happens with people who are already in positions of power. Generally speaking, when they hear about climate-change threats, they tend to hoard resources more. They tend to actually enact violence against people who they think of as threatening those resources or who are causing the problems in the first place. So there's all this language around immigrants coming to America and having a greater ecological footprint when they get to America, and therefore 'That's why we shouldn't allow immigrants into America.' This kind of argument, which is often called eco-fascism, can lead to some pretty, well, racist ideas, underwritten by climate change falsely. And even violence. Tayag: That's really concerning. The tendency, by some, to find scapegoats to try and just evade personal responsibility—that actually makes me think of another, pretty extreme, way of evading the climate crisis. It's this idea that we should just escape Earth entirely. Like, Earth is screwed, so let's go move to Mars. It's obviously still a very moonshot idea, but it does come up! And it gets a lot of investment from really wealthy billionaires, like Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos. They've both put a lot of money into exploring space. What do you make of that—is that a valid way to be dealing with climate anxiety? Ray: So the idea that we might be able to escape the limitations of capitalism—of the planet's limits, of resource limitations—that's really the fantasy here, right? So when we hear about economists or fossil-fuel folks saying the goal of the future is not to get rid of climate change; it is to separate humans' dependence on the planet systems. That's what they explicitly say is the goal. So the next obvious conclusion to that—if you're one of those tech bros who's into that kind of stuff—is to think, Well, the best way to do that is to find other planets. Right? And there's a fantasy of transcendence there. Of transcending the messiness of human life, using money to transcend the planet's limits, using money to transcend the muckiness of inequality and the social movements. So that might arise from that. We're seeing so much evidence of wanting that just to go away … all that stuff to just go away. Tayag: Yeah. It's, you know, the escape plan. That's a withdrawal in itself. Ray: Yeah. Tayag: It puts the focus back on the individual and ensuring your own survival. And I think that's the opposite of what we need. Ray: Yeah, absolutely. It's the opposite of what we need. And I think that's the nervous-system solution there, right? Like, if you think about when we perceive big threats, if we don't train our nervous system culturally or individually, we don't have a process by which we train our nervous system to respond to threats through social engagement, it's very possible that our response might be 'flight or fight or freeze,' or some of these other—maybe less constructive or less healing—responses that actually don't get to the root cause of the problem at all. Escape is a real nervous-system response. It's legitimate. But it's not medicine for the planet's woes. Tayag: Well, Professor Ray, thank you so much for being here today. Ray: Thanks so much. Brennan: Yasmin, I feel like I am going to have Professor Ray's voice in my head—reminding me that if you're not thoughtful about it, apocalyptic living will lead you to withdraw for quite some time. Tayag: Apocalyptic living begets more apocalyptic living! Brennan: No, truly. I mean, we're now at about five years out from the start of the pandemic. And I only now feel like I am at a place where I am ready to start unlearning a lot of the habits that I developed during that time, which led to a lot of isolation. I find that I withdraw as default, now. Tayag: Have you read Derek Thompson's Atlantic piece ' The Anti-Social Century '? Brennan: You know, I really could have used hearing your interview with Professor Ray before I read that piece—because it definitely led to a lot of overwhelm! The piece does a beautiful job of outlining how American society is on an anti-social streak. And how solitude has almost been marketed to us as luxury. Tayag: Me time! Brennan: Right, me time: ordering takeout, meditating. Going to work out, headphones in. I have really bought into the idea that to recharge is to be alone. Tayag: Mm-hmm. Brennan: And what we've been hearing throughout this season, again and again, is that to live a healthy, long life is to instead find our way back to a social society. Tayag: Right. We set out to answer the question of how to age up—and we heard a lot, from experts in vastly different fields, about how to connect. Brennan: Totally. It's funny the lengths we'll go to try and figure out the secret to living longer, when the answer—if there is to be any one singular answer—is to think less about yourself as the main part of the equation. Tayag: I read something recently that really captures this sentiment—on the vulnerability of being an individual and the possibility and power in teaming up. It acknowledged what so many of our experts have been saying. Our ability to age up relies on pushing back against forces as huge as climate change, ageism, housing insecurity … but you just can't do it alone. It says the more you band together with others—first with one person, then two, then even more people—the better chances you have at succeeding. Brennan: Yasmin, are you quoting a poem to me? Tayag: The tables have turned. To end this season, I'd love to read you part of a poem. Is that okay? Brennan: Welcomed, even. Tayag: This is a passage from the poem 'The Low Road' by Marge Piercy: With six you can rent a whole house, eat pie for dinner with no seconds, and hold a fund raising party. A dozen make a demonstration. A hundred fill a hall. Tayag: And the poem goes on to drive home the point that there's power in those numbers. It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again and they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more. Tayag: That's all for this season of How to Age Up. How to Age Up was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayag. Brennan: And co-hosted and produced by me, Natalie Brennan.
Yahoo
05-05-2025
- Health
- Yahoo
How to Define Old Age
Listen and subscribe here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Pocket Casts In 2021 Dr. Kiran Rabheru, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Ottawa and a geriatric psychiatrist, found himself at the center of a medical debate. The World Health Organization wanted to officially designate 'old age' as a disease, but with more than 40 years of work with aging populations, Rabheru saw this as another example of ageism that needed to be challenged. Dr. Rabheru talks with Yasmin Tayag about how he fought the WHO and about the impact such designations can have on research and our understanding of growing old.[Phone ringing.] Natalie Brennan: I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at The Atlantic. Yasmin Tayag: And I'm Yasmin Tayag, a staff writer with The Atlantic. Brennan: You've reached How to Age Up. Leave us a voicemail after the beep. [Beep.] Jennifer Motiff: Hi. I am 60 years old. Toscan Lahy: Most people think I'm 45, 50, but I'm actually going to be 63. Marla Mclean: And I am 60-wonderful years old. That's 61. Brennan: Yasmin, over the last few weeks, we've been asking people to call in and tell us their age and about some of their experiences of aging. Myron Murray: I'm 75 years old. Thank God I'm Italian, and I don't wrinkle, so I don't look my age. I feel 20. Susan Brown: My age is almost 80, so I am actually aged, not aging. Doug Rutholm: I'm 88 years young. I'm only 88, and I'm married to a younger woman: only 85. So one of our secrets is youthing. We're not aging, we are youthing. And we eat well, we exercise, and looking forward to getting older. But we're getting younger. So that's it. Bye-bye. Tayag: Youthing! I like the sound of that! Brennan: Not wrinkling because I'm Italian … I like the sound of that! But as I was moving through the collection of voicemails, I noticed a pattern. We also received a lot of callers sharing very similar anxieties about the unknowns of what could lie ahead … Gary Schuberth: And what aspects of aging am I nervous about? Living to a very old age, and not being very healthy. Jes Chmielewski: I am nervous about feeling older. Just all the aches and pains and failures of organs and body parts. Jennifer Moffat: The things that make me nervous about aging are just physical breakdown, like, I don't want to break a bone. I don't want to get cancer. Stella K.: I'm really afraid of getting dementia. I mean, it just seems like a terrifying thing, and the older I get, the more afraid of it I am. Brennan: And Yasmin, you know, we asked about aging, and we heard a lot about disease and decline. Tayag: Yeah. I mean, I'm not totally surprised to hear that people are worried about getting sick as they age. I mean—I do think culturally we conflate aging and disease. It actually made its way to the center of a debate in the medical field. A few years ago, the World Health Organization tried to connect aging and disease more officially. Brennan: How so? Tayag: Well, they proposed defining aging itself as a disease. Brennan: To make aging a disease? Tayag: A classified disease. In the ICD—The International Classification of Diseases. Brennan: What benefit would that have? Tayag: Well, the idea is that if old age is officially considered a disease, then drugs can be developed to treat it … the way we have drugs to treat diseases like diabetes and cancer. So a lot of it comes down to funding. Brennan: But how do you treat old age? Aging is … time passing. How do you stop that? Tayag: You make a good point! And these kinds of details are exactly what I wanted to know more about. Kiran Rabheru: We don't have a good clear definition of old age. And that is still up for debate. What is old age? [Music.] Tayag: Natalie, that's Dr. Kiran Rabheru—he's a professor of psychiatry at the University of Ottawa and a geriatric psychiatrist. He's been focused on aging populations for over 40 years. And he spearheaded the team that challenged the World Health Organization when it wanted to officially designate 'old age' in the ICD. But before we get to that, it can help to know more about Dr. Rabheru and why he's so interested in aging populations. Rabheru: That's an easy one: my grandmother. Tayag: Oh! Tell me more! Rabheru: [Chuckling.] My parents were, they were around, but they were busy: setting up a business and so on. And when I was growing up, my grandmother was the main sort of person in my life. She had a huge amount of influence on me. She was not educated. She couldn't even write her own name. But she was, in my opinion, totally biased, probably the wisest and smartest person I've ever met in my life. And every time I see an older person, I see a bit of her in them. Tayag: That is lovely. So how did that shape your view of older people? You had, what sounds like, the privilege of getting to know a grandmother. But that hasn't always been common, right? Rabheru: So aging, historically: If you go back a century or two, if you look at the numbers, if you were walking on the streets in the year 1800, most people would not have been old. You would hardly see an older person. Most people died by the time they got to the age of 30. Tayag: Yikes; I would have been long gone. Rabheru: If you fast-forward a hundred years, if you were walking around the streets in 1900, most people would be no more than 40. So there's a difference of 10 years in that 100-year span. But if you fast-forward another hundred years, in the year 2000, that number went from 40 to 70. So now, even across the lower- and middle-income countries, most people live to old age. So, on one hand, we've increased the lifespan of people. But on the other hand, we have devalued that population. Rabheru: And therein lies the crux of the matter that we're talking about, and that is the way people think and feel and behave or act towards the whole aging population. Tayag: So it sounds like there have been some big, positive improvements for aging, but that may have led to an increase in the disparaging thinking we call ageism. Rabheru: It's very subtle, and it's largely unconscious, and it's institutionalized. It's part of our policies and laws, and it's part of our processes. It's structures, in every sector, and that's embedded as an unconscious bias. Tayag: Sure. Rabheru: The COVID-19 pandemic really shone a light on the gaps we have in our system, particularly towards older people. And ageism became so much more rampant. The future is not about young versus old. Although our government sometimes tries to pit the old against the young. But it's about designing a society where everyone, at every age, can live together with dignity and purpose and opportunity. Tayag: One thing that I think makes those conversations difficult is that we don't have agreed-upon language to talk about age, and our society's perspective on aging seems to reflect that. Like, to me, our conception of age seems very rudimentary. Old and young are relative terms. I understand that one of the attempts to assign a definition to old age came when the World Health Organization wanted to classify it as a disease in the ICD. Can you explain what that actually means, and the implications for how we think about age and illness? Rabheru: Oh, Yasmin, absolutely. I used to teach the course on classification diseases, and classification is really important. It's not perfect. We have to adapt it as societal values change and our thinking changes, and we gather more data. Biologically, the environment changes, and we need to change the classification system to match it, right? The ICD is not published every year. It's published every 10–15 years apart. So, once it's in there, it can change a whole generation of people going through the treatment and through the hospital or clinical system. Tayag: You know, I'm thinking, for example, of alcohol-use disorder. You know, it used to be seen as this moral failing, a failing of willpower. And then it was classified as a disease, and that seemed to change some of the cultural thinking around it. So that's an example of defining a disease that really helped the culture find more empathy—and also more investment in the recovery and success of many people. Could you give me an example of a condition that, you know, went through the process of being considered and classified as a disease but is no longer considered to be one? Rabheru: You know, we've gone through 'diseases' like homosexuality—classified as a disease. And think about the stigma associated with those terms. We don't use them anymore. And words matter; it tells people what value you place on that human being. Tayag: It's so obvious to me that these official classifications matter. You know, it makes me think of the legalization of marijuana in Canada. where I grew up. My parents were always super strongly opposed to it. But ever since it was legalized, I've noticed their tone softening a little. It's not like they've gone and flipped and started using it, but now they talk about it as a thing that some people do, and that's okay. And it's been fascinating to watch that shift just because there is some sort of, like, binding declaration of this being legitimate. Rabheru: Exactly. Tayag: So I want to talk about disease classification specifically in relation to aging. In December 2021 you found yourself in the middle of some very high-stakes deliberation. Set the scene for me. Rabheru: It was the most fascinating experience, I've got to tell you, Yasmin. As part of my work, I've worked with a lot of people, across the world, that lead different organizations in aging. And it came to our attention that the WHO was updating the International Classification of Diseases, the ICD. And part of the changes that they were proposing was to include 'old age' as a disease. Tayag: Wow; just old age. Rabheru: Just old age, quote, unquote, as a disease. And, you know, look: The WHO is highly respectable. but it's an unconscious bias. And this is an example of ageism within WHO. Now, in March of 2021, the same organization put out the global report on ageism. To combat ageism. Tayag: It seems a little hypocritical. Rabheru: In the same organization. Yeah. So we wrote; we got together and we organized a campaign. There were like eight or 10 different organizations that all wrote to the WHO, and collectively we represented millions of people across the world. Our team and the people that I work with immediately thought: Aging is a privilege. That's not the disease. And you know, look. As a clinician, I know that it's not always easy. The older people are much more challenging to see and treat because of the multiple medical and psychosocial conditions they have. Having a diagnosis of 'old age' would automatically just lead people to put them into that category, that 'This person's just old'—and they move on to something that's easier to deal with. Tayag: Well, one of the big questions that the proposal to call aging a disease brought up for me was: Where do you draw the line? Where does aging start? Rabheru: It's not the age. Like, Yasmin, if you have a car accident and you can't walk tomorrow because of a spinal-cord injury, you would have the same level of intrinsic capacity as someone who's had a stroke at the age of 80. So the number, chronologically, is—not that it's not important; it is a risk factor, of course. Every organ ages over time. So it is definitely part of the risk factor, of course, but it's not the main driver of functional capacity. Tayag: And so what happened next after you wrote to the WHO? Rabheru: They did, in fact, give us, four hours of their time. It was Thanksgiving Day! Tayag: Thanksgiving Day? Rabheru: And we went through it in a systematic, scientific way. And we explained we understand what they're trying to do, and they want to go after the biological aspects of aging—which absolutely we need to do! There's no question. There is a lot of pathology that we can reduce the risk of, etcetera. But to call old age a disease is not going to play well in society. Tayag: Okay; so sounds like it was a worthwhile way to spend your Thanksgiving that year. Rabheru: Totally, 100 percent. Tayag: So how did it turn out? Rabheru: They came back to us a few weeks later saying they've met several times, and they've decided to change it. We were very happily shocked that they rescinded it. And that was the right thing to do. We were very pleased. Aging is universal and should not be pathologized. And it's time to reframe aging in a more positive way. [Music.] Brennan: Okay, Yasmin, I want to work through some of this tension I'm feeling. Yasmin: I can see the wheels turning. Brennan: I'm having a hard time. Because hearing Dr. Rabheru talking about challenging the WHO—it does sound like a win for how health professionals and society in general think about older people. And, as we know, this perception has tangible effects on the care and treatment that people receive. So that's a win! Tayag: Yeah. Brennan: But I'm still trying to work out if treating aging is a worthwhile pursuit or not. On the one hand, I'm like, Okay, if we think about aging as time. And time has a physical effect on our cells—building up damage, getting worn out. I could understand a world where we are working to heal or repair that damage, and if we were able to do that, I am guessing it would relieve some of the anxiety that we heard in so many of the voicemails we received. But at the same time, I'm like, What does treating aging even look like? Tayag: Well, there are existing drugs that are being repurposed to maybe slow aging. Brennan: Okay, so what does that mean? Tayag: Metformin is used for diabetes. Rapamycin is an immunosuppressant. And researchers are trying to determine if those or other existing drugs could slow the passage of time for cells, or clear out old cells, or the molecular junk that time leaves behind. Brennan: I have Timothy Caulfield in my ear from Episode 1 telling me to assume nothing works! I'm skeptical about the ability to achieve these things. And I'm just immediately wondering if something else is going on here. Tayag: I mean—a lot of this does come down to money. There's a hope that there will be more investment in research on slowing aging. Which, in turn, will save money in the long run, because if people get sick less often as they age, it will bring down the costs of health care. Brennan: Hmm. Tayag: So that's one argument for exploring it. There was a report in 2021 from the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission showing that much older people tend to be the most costly to the government, health care–wise. Brennan: Right. I guess what I am trying to understand is: Although aging is not a disease in and of itself, and it should not be classified as such, it is associated with disease, right? And we could work harder to address the concerns that people have when it comes to aging. Tayag: Exactly. So aging is a risk factor for disease. But aging itself isn't a disease. This was something I was really trying to work out, too, when I was talking with Dr. Rabheru. [Music.] Rabheru: It's a risk factor. Aging is a risk factor—in fact, the strongest risk factor—for cognitive impairment or dementia, barring, you know, all other illnesses. So, if you have a stroke or a genetic predisposition, that's different. But if you're healthy and you're getting older, the biggest risk factor is aging. One in three people by the time you're 80 will have some form of dementia, regardless of any other conditions. And the biology of that should be explored to mitigate it. Tayag: Being a science journalist, I'm always looking at new research going on. And it does seem like there is continuing research that still treats aging like a disease, even though the World Health Organization decided not to classify it that way. One thing I saw recently was an effort to delay or stop menopause altogether, which is complicated, right? Because, on the one hand, the symptoms of menopause can be really tough to deal with. And not to mention, the way that postmenopausal people are treated in society. And so I can understand why there's a desire to delay menopause or stop it altogether. Rabheru: Mmhmm. Tayag: But, on the other hand, menopause is a part of aging. It's just a normal life stage. Rabheru: Exactly. Tayag: And it's in these sorts of questions that I'm not really sure where to fall. Rabheru: The solution depends on what your agenda is; like, where you put your values. So for example—if your values are coming from the financing side of things, the aging industry, the anti-aging industry, is huge. Tayag: Oh yeah, I have been victim to a lot of face creams. Rabheru: There might be things that you can do from a scientific point of view, from a medical point of view, to make the person's life better. But to completely alter the course of a human being: Just because you can doesn't mean you should, right? We don't really understand the medium- and long-term implications of doing some of those things. And the science is advancing so quickly with AI and with technology, but the long-term ramifications of what it does to humans and our society are not well studied. Tayag: Okay, so we don't know if reversing or stopping aging is even going to work, and you're saying it's something that maybe we shouldn't pursue. Yet we still have this problem of people assuming that old age means they will get sick. But, you know, I think a lot about my grandfather-in-law. He's 96 years old and walks two miles every other day! Rabheru: Good for him. Tayag: He's my hero. He's awesome. And so, he's definitely old in numbers, but I would never think of him as unhealthy. Nobody would. Rabheru: Or worth less! Tayag: Or worthless, exactly. Rabheru: The older population is growing. We have, you know, we're going to—we'll have billions of people by the year 2050 who are older. And that's a resource; that's not a burden. If we keep them safe and healthy and happy, they can provide support for the world. [Music.] Brennan: Okay, Yas, I have to admit when I hear those statistics about risk for diseases as you age. I do pretty immediately tense up. Disease does still sound so inevitable to aging. Tayag: I hear you. I mean when I think about my family's heart-health trajectory, I feel like it's inevitable that I'm going to get all the same diseases as my parents as I get older. Brennan: Oh my god, I hope my dad isn't listening right now, because I had slightly high cholesterol this year, and I couldn't bear to tell him after years of me pestering him about this. [Laughter.] Here I am on my little lentil-and-sweet-potato high horse, and I still had slightly high cholesterol. Meaning the same genes that came for his heart might just come for mine. Tayag: You know, I have been on this same spiral lately! Brennan: Yeah. Tayag: But have you heard of the concept of healthspan? Brennan: I have not. Tayag: It's what comes to mind when I think about my grandfather-in-law. And all the other older people who called in telling us how they're thriving and living their best lives. Healthspan is the idea of extending the period that a person is healthy. And that's different from lifespan, which is about how long you actually live. Brennan: Okay so, instead of trying to live longer, until 105, it's about making it longer in your life without disease? Tayag: Exactly. Just like: staying healthy for as much of your life as possible, no matter how long you live. Which is the case for a lot of older people. Brennan: Okay—how do we do that? How do we extend healthspan? Tayag: So we don't know how to guarantee an extended lifespan yet. But we do know how to increase healthspan: Eat well, exercise, sleep a lot, connect with people. It's all the stuff we've been talking about this season. Brennan: And did Dr. Rabheru have any more advice, too? Tayag: Well I thought you might ask. So I asked Dr. Rabheru what his advice to his patients is. Rabheru: So for many, many years, I have given the same prescription to every single patient I see. Tayag: That's after the break. [Music.] [Midroll.] Tayag: Dr. Rabheru, I have one last question for you. As a person who is aging yourself, like all of us are, what is one piece of advice you think we could all benefit from? Rabheru: Well, I'll tell you—so, for many, many years, I have given the same prescription to every single patient I see. When you leave my office or clinic or hospital, when you go home, here's my prescription for you. It's the rule of 20s. So: I need you to give at least 20 smiles a day. Okay? Because as soon as you're smiling, it changes the way your brain works. Second is to do 20 minutes of activity of some sort; and I usually say walking, because physical activity is really important for health, right? But try and get 20 minutes of walking. And thirdly: Socialize for 20 minutes a day. And not just with the person you're living with; that's fine too, but try and do something outside of yourself. So, those are three basic things you can do, and then all the treatment I give you will be much more effective. Tayag: I love it; the 20 rule. I'm going to do this today. It seems easy enough. I'm smiling a lot after this conversation, and so I smiled a lot. I've talked to you for way more than 20 minutes, and I guess I just have to go on a walk later. Dr. Rabheru, thank you so much. Rabheru: Likewise, Yasmin; thank you. [Music.] Brennan: Yasmin, I do think that a really important part of this conversation is making sure we highlight the aspects of aging that people are excited about. When we asked listeners for those voicemails, we didn't just ask what people were nervous about as they aged. Sue: What are you looking forward to? Well, the biggest thing is no more shoulds. I'm tired of shoulds. You should do this. You should do that. I don't care about shoulds anymore, and the freedom of doing what I want when I want to. John Shuey: What are you looking forward to as you age? Well. Staying mobile and fit and able to get around. And I really do get around. I, despite my age, I can shovel snow for two hours. I ride bikes 35 miles at a time. I just, I basically feel like I'm 40. Is there someone in your life who has made you excited to get older? And yeah. It's this girl from high school. I married her, and we have a great time together. Lynn Clark: I wanted to leave this message for all the women who are nervous about aging. At age 30 I started my own business. I've raised two children and was widowed by age 59. At age 60, I started weight-resistance training and cycling. I am slowly backing out of my company towards full retirement. I moved part-time to another state, something I wouldn't have dreamed of when I was younger. Susan Anthony: I do stand-up comedy. I do all sorts of weird and wonderful new sports, whatever really takes my fancy. And I kind of enjoy that, and I can just, like, head off in whatever direction I feel like. And all of it is about just that desire to continue to grow. The next question you had was: Who do you hope to be like when you are older? That phrase that I think Clint Eastwood is known for—'Don't let the old man in'—and I think that's really where the secret lies. I see so many people who just let the old person in, and I don't want to do that. And so I admire anyone who really doesn't allow that to happen. Tayag: Don't let the old man in. Brennan: Or, maybe better: Change your idea of what the old man is like! Tayag: Right. My dad is on a 70+ senior basketball team, and I like the old man they let in. Like, they are just always looking forward to the next game, the next tournament, and just getting to hang out. And they're still so excited for what's to come. Brennan: Yeah, I think for me it's like: healthspan, lifespan … I want to extend my curiosity-span. Tayag: Zest-span. Brennan: Joie de vivre–span. Tayag: Exactement. Looking forward–span. [Beep.] Myron Murray: I want to see 'em land on Mars. I want to see 'em land and live on the moon. I want to see all the new things that are gonna come and we're going to get to see. [Music.] Tayag: That's all for this episode of How to Age Up. This episode was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayag, and co-hosted and produced by Natalie Brennan. Our editors are Claudine Ebeid and Jocelyn Frank. Fact-check by Ena Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smierciak. Rob also composed some of the music for this show. The executive producer of audio is Claudine Ebeid, and the managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez. Brennan: Next time on How to Age Up: Tayag: Looking to the future doesn't always feel easy when climate issues loom large. Sarah Jaquette Ray: It's not about taking shorter showers. It's really about kind of setting up your brain when you consume this information. Tayag: How to age up in a world affected by climate change. We'll be back with you on Monday. Article originally published at The Atlantic
Atlantic
05-05-2025
- Health
- Atlantic
How to Define Old Age
In 2021 Dr. Kiran Rabheru, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Ottawa and a geriatric psychiatrist, found himself at the center of a medical debate. The World Health Organization wanted to officially designate 'old age' as a disease, but with more than 40 years of work with aging populations, Rabheru saw this as another example of ageism that needed to be challenged. Dr. Rabheru talks with Yasmin Tayag about how he fought the WHO and about the impact such designations can have on research and our understanding of growing old. The following is a transcript: [ Phone ringing. ] Natalie Brennan: I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at The Atlantic. Yasmin Tayag: And I'm Yasmin Tayag, a staff writer with The Atlantic. Brennan: You've reached How to Age Up. Leave us a voicemail after the beep. [ Beep. ] Jennifer Motiff: Hi. I am 60 years old. Toscan Lahy: Most people think I'm 45, 50, but I'm actually going to be 63. Marla Mclean: And I am 60-wonderful years old. That's 61. Brennan: Yasmin, over the last few weeks, we've been asking people to call in and tell us their age and about some of their experiences of aging. Myron Murray: I'm 75 years old. Thank God I'm Italian, and I don't wrinkle, so I don't look my age. I feel 20. Susan Brown: My age is almost 80, so I am actually aged, not aging. Doug Rutholm: I'm 88 years young. I'm only 88, and I'm married to a younger woman: only 85. So one of our secrets is youthing. We're not aging, we are youthing. And we eat well, we exercise, and looking forward to getting older. But we're getting younger. So that's it. Bye-bye. Tayag: Youthing! I like the sound of that! Brennan: Not wrinkling because I'm Italian … I like the sound of that! But as I was moving through the collection of voicemails, I noticed a pattern. We also received a lot of callers sharing very similar anxieties about the unknowns of what could lie ahead … Gary Schuberth: And what aspects of aging am I nervous about? Living to a very old age, and not being very healthy. Jes Chmielewski: I am nervous about feeling older. Just all the aches and pains and failures of organs and body parts. Jennifer Moffat: The things that make me nervous about aging are just physical breakdown, like, I don't want to break a bone. I don't want to get cancer. Stella K.: I'm really afraid of getting dementia. I mean, it just seems like a terrifying thing, and the older I get, the more afraid of it I am. Brennan: And Yasmin, you know, we asked about aging, and we heard a lot about disease and decline. Tayag: Yeah. I mean, I'm not totally surprised to hear that people are worried about getting sick as they age. I mean—I do think culturally we conflate aging and disease. It actually made its way to the center of a debate in the medical field. A few years ago, the World Health Organization tried to connect aging and disease more officially. Brennan: How so? Tayag: Well, they proposed defining aging itself as a disease. Brennan: To make aging a disease? Tayag: A classified disease. In the ICD—The International Classification of Diseases. Brennan: What benefit would that have? Tayag: Well, the idea is that if old age is officially considered a disease, then drugs can be developed to treat it … the way we have drugs to treat diseases like diabetes and cancer. So a lot of it comes down to funding. Brennan: But how do you treat old age? Aging is … time passing. How do you stop that? Tayag: You make a good point! And these kinds of details are exactly what I wanted to know more about. Kiran Rabheru: We don't have a good clear definition of old age. And that is still up for debate. What is old age? [ Music.] Tayag: Natalie, that's Dr. Kiran Rabheru—he's a professor of psychiatry at the University of Ottawa and a geriatric psychiatrist. He's been focused on aging populations for over 40 years. And he spearheaded the team that challenged the World Health Organization when it wanted to officially designate 'old age' in the ICD. But before we get to that, it can help to know more about Dr. Rabheru and why he's so interested in aging populations. Rabheru: That's an easy one: my grandmother. Rabheru: [ Chuckling.] My parents were, they were around, but they were busy: setting up a business and so on. And when I was growing up, my grandmother was the main sort of person in my life. She had a huge amount of influence on me. She was not educated. She couldn't even write her own name. But she was, in my opinion, totally biased, probably the wisest and smartest person I've ever met in my life. And every time I see an older person, I see a bit of her in them. Tayag: That is lovely. So how did that shape your view of older people? You had, what sounds like, the privilege of getting to know a grandmother. But that hasn't always been common, right? Rabheru: So aging, historically: If you go back a century or two, if you look at the numbers, if you were walking on the streets in the year 1800, most people would not have been old. You would hardly see an older person. Most people died by the time they got to the age of 30. Tayag: Yikes; I would have been long gone. Rabheru: If you fast-forward a hundred years, if you were walking around the streets in 1900, most people would be no more than 40. So there's a difference of 10 years in that 100-year span. But if you fast-forward another hundred years, in the year 2000, that number went from 40 to 70. So now, even across the lower- and middle-income countries, most people live to old age. So, on one hand, we've increased the lifespan of people. But on the other hand, we have devalued that population. Rabheru: And therein lies the crux of the matter that we're talking about, and that is the way people think and feel and behave or act towards the whole aging population. Tayag: So it sounds like there have been some big, positive improvements for aging, but that may have led to an increase in the disparaging thinking we call ageism. Rabheru: It's very subtle, and it's largely unconscious, and it's institutionalized. It's part of our policies and laws, and it's part of our processes. It's structures, in every sector, and that's embedded as an unconscious bias. Tayag: Sure. Rabheru: The COVID-19 pandemic really shone a light on the gaps we have in our system, particularly towards older people. And ageism became so much more rampant. The future is not about young versus old. Although our government sometimes tries to pit the old against the young. But it's about designing a society where everyone, at every age, can live together with dignity and purpose and opportunity. Tayag: One thing that I think makes those conversations difficult is that we don't have agreed-upon language to talk about age, and our society's perspective on aging seems to reflect that. Like, to me, our conception of age seems very rudimentary. Old and young are relative terms. I understand that one of the attempts to assign a definition to old age came when the World Health Organization wanted to classify it as a disease in the ICD. Can you explain what that actually means, and the implications for how we think about age and illness? Rabheru: Oh, Yasmin, absolutely. I used to teach the course on classification diseases, and classification is really important. It's not perfect. We have to adapt it as societal values change and our thinking changes, and we gather more data. Biologically, the environment changes, and we need to change the classification system to match it, right? The ICD is not published every year. It's published every 10–15 years apart. So, once it's in there, it can change a whole generation of people going through the treatment and through the hospital or clinical system. Tayag: You know, I'm thinking, for example, of alcohol-use disorder. You know, it used to be seen as this moral failing, a failing of willpower. And then it was classified as a disease, and that seemed to change some of the cultural thinking around it. So that's an example of defining a disease that really helped the culture find more empathy—and also more investment in the recovery and success of many people. Could you give me an example of a condition that, you know, went through the process of being considered and classified as a disease but is no longer considered to be one? Rabheru: You know, we've gone through 'diseases' like homosexuality—classified as a disease. And think about the stigma associated with those terms. We don't use them anymore. And words matter; it tells people what value you place on that human being. Tayag: It's so obvious to me that these official classifications matter. You know, it makes me think of the legalization of marijuana in Canada. where I grew up. My parents were always super strongly opposed to it. But ever since it was legalized, I've noticed their tone softening a little. It's not like they've gone and flipped and started using it, but now they talk about it as a thing that some people do, and that's okay. And it's been fascinating to watch that shift just because there is some sort of, like, binding declaration of this being legitimate. Rabheru: Exactly. Tayag: So I want to talk about disease classification specifically in relation to aging. In December 2021 you found yourself in the middle of some very high-stakes deliberation. Set the scene for me. Rabheru: It was the most fascinating experience, I've got to tell you, Yasmin. As part of my work, I've worked with a lot of people, across the world, that lead different organizations in aging. And it came to our attention that the WHO was updating the International Classification of Diseases, the ICD. And part of the changes that they were proposing was to include 'old age' as a disease. Tayag: Wow; just old age. Rabheru: Just old age, quote, unquote, as a disease. And, you know, look: The WHO is highly respectable. but it's an unconscious bias. And this is an example of ageism within WHO. Now, in March of 2021, the same organization put out the global report on ageism. To combat ageism. Tayag: It seems a little hypocritical. Rabheru: In the same organization. Yeah. So we wrote; we got together and we organized a campaign. There were like eight or 10 different organizations that all wrote to the WHO, and collectively we represented millions of people across the world. Our team and the people that I work with immediately thought: Aging is a privilege. That's not the disease. And you know, look. As a clinician, I know that it's not always easy. The older people are much more challenging to see and treat because of the multiple medical and psychosocial conditions they have. Having a diagnosis of 'old age' would automatically just lead people to put them into that category, that 'This person's just old'—and they move on to something that's easier to deal with. Tayag: Well, one of the big questions that the proposal to call aging a disease brought up for me was: Where do you draw the line? Where does aging start? Rabheru: It's not the age. Like, Yasmin, if you have a car accident and you can't walk tomorrow because of a spinal-cord injury, you would have the same level of intrinsic capacity as someone who's had a stroke at the age of 80. So the number, chronologically, is—not that it's not important; it is a risk factor, of course. Every organ ages over time. So it is definitely part of the risk factor, of course, but it's not the main driver of functional capacity. Tayag: And so what happened next after you wrote to the WHO? Rabheru: They did, in fact, give us, four hours of their time. It was Thanksgiving Day! Tayag: Thanksgiving Day? Rabheru: And we went through it in a systematic, scientific way. And we explained we understand what they're trying to do, and they want to go after the biological aspects of aging—which absolutely we need to do! There's no question. There is a lot of pathology that we can reduce the risk of, etcetera. But to call old age a disease is not going to play well in society. Tayag: Okay; so sounds like it was a worthwhile way to spend your Thanksgiving that year. Rabheru: Totally, 100 percent. Tayag: So how did it turn out? Rabheru: They came back to us a few weeks later saying they've met several times, and they've decided to change it. We were very happily shocked that they rescinded it. And that was the right thing to do. We were very pleased. Aging is universal and should not be pathologized. And it's time to reframe aging in a more positive way. [ Music. ] Brennan: Okay, Yasmin, I want to work through some of this tension I'm feeling. Yasmin: I can see the wheels turning. Brennan: I'm having a hard time. Because hearing Dr. Rabheru talking about challenging the WHO—it does sound like a win for how health professionals and society in general think about older people. And, as we know, this perception has tangible effects on the care and treatment that people receive. So that's a win! Tayag: Yeah. Brennan: But I'm still trying to work out if treating aging is a worthwhile pursuit or not. On the one hand, I'm like, Okay, if we think about aging as time. And time has a physical effect on our cells—building up damage, getting worn out. I could understand a world where we are working to heal or repair that damage, and if we were able to do that, I am guessing it would relieve some of the anxiety that we heard in so many of the voicemails we received. But at the same time, I'm like, What does treating aging even look like? Tayag: Well, there are existing drugs that are being repurposed to maybe slow aging. Brennan: Okay, so what does that mean? Tayag: Metformin is used for diabetes. Rapamycin is an immunosuppressant. And researchers are trying to determine if those or other existing drugs could slow the passage of time for cells, or clear out old cells, or the molecular junk that time leaves behind. Brennan: I have Timothy Caulfield in my ear from Episode 1 telling me to assume nothing works! I'm skeptical about the ability to achieve these things. And I'm just immediately wondering if something else is going on here. Tayag: I mean—a lot of this does come down to money. There's a hope that there will be more investment in research on slowing aging. Which, in turn, will save money in the long run, because if people get sick less often as they age, it will bring down the costs of health care. Brennan: Hmm. Tayag: So that's one argument for exploring it. There was a report in 2021 from the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission showing that much older people tend to be the most costly to the government, health care–wise. Brennan: Right. I guess what I am trying to understand is: Although aging is not a disease in and of itself, and it should not be classified as such, it is associated with disease, right? And we could work harder to address the concerns that people have when it comes to aging. Tayag: Exactly. So aging is a risk factor for disease. But aging itself isn't a disease. This was something I was really trying to work out, too, when I was talking with Dr. Rabheru. [ Music.] Rabheru: It's a risk factor. Aging is a risk factor—in fact, the strongest risk factor—for cognitive impairment or dementia, barring, you know, all other illnesses. So, if you have a stroke or a genetic predisposition, that's different. But if you're healthy and you're getting older, the biggest risk factor is aging. One in three people by the time you're 80 will have some form of dementia, regardless of any other conditions. And the biology of that should be explored to mitigate it. Tayag: Being a science journalist, I'm always looking at new research going on. And it does seem like there is continuing research that still treats aging like a disease, even though the World Health Organization decided not to classify it that way. One thing I saw recently was an effort to delay or stop menopause altogether, which is complicated, right? Because, on the one hand, the symptoms of menopause can be really tough to deal with. And not to mention, the way that postmenopausal people are treated in society. And so I can understand why there's a desire to delay menopause or stop it altogether. Rabheru: Mmhmm. Tayag: But, on the other hand, menopause is a part of aging. It's just a normal life stage. Rabheru: Exactly. Tayag: And it's in these sorts of questions that I'm not really sure where to fall. Rabheru: The solution depends on what your agenda is; like, where you put your values. So for example—if your values are coming from the financing side of things, the aging industry, the anti-aging industry, is huge. Tayag: Oh yeah, I have been victim to a lot of face creams. Rabheru: There might be things that you can do from a scientific point of view, from a medical point of view, to make the person's life better. But to completely alter the course of a human being: Just because you can doesn't mean you should, right? We don't really understand the medium- and long-term implications of doing some of those things. And the science is advancing so quickly with AI and with technology, but the long-term ramifications of what it does to humans and our society are not well studied. Tayag: Okay, so we don't know if reversing or stopping aging is even going to work, and you're saying it's something that maybe we shouldn't pursue. Yet we still have this problem of people assuming that old age means they will get sick. But, you know, I think a lot about my grandfather-in-law. He's 96 years old and walks two miles every other day! Rabheru: Good for him. Tayag: He's my hero. He's awesome. And so, he's definitely old in numbers, but I would never think of him as unhealthy. Nobody would. Rabheru: Or worth less! Tayag: Or worthless, exactly. Rabheru: The older population is growing. We have, you know, we're going to—we'll have billions of people by the year 2050 who are older. And that's a resource; that's not a burden. If we keep them safe and healthy and happy, they can provide support for the world. [ Music. ] Brennan: Okay, Yas, I have to admit when I hear those statistics about risk for diseases as you age. I do pretty immediately tense up. Disease does still sound so inevitable to aging. Tayag: I hear you. I mean when I think about my family's heart-health trajectory, I feel like it's inevitable that I'm going to get all the same diseases as my parents as I get older. Brennan: Oh my god, I hope my dad isn't listening right now, because I had slightly high cholesterol this year, and I couldn't bear to tell him after years of me pestering him about this. [ Laughter. ] Here I am on my little lentil-and-sweet-potato high horse, and I still had slightly high cholesterol. Meaning the same genes that came for his heart might just come for mine. Tayag: You know, I have been on this same spiral lately! Brennan: Yeah. Tayag: But have you heard of the concept of healthspan? Brennan: I have not. Tayag: It's what comes to mind when I think about my grandfather-in-law. And all the other older people who called in telling us how they're thriving and living their best lives. Healthspan is the idea of extending the period that a person is healthy. And that's different from lifespan, which is about how long you actually live. Brennan: Okay so, instead of trying to live longer, until 105, it's about making it longer in your life without disease? Tayag: Exactly. Just like: staying healthy for as much of your life as possible, no matter how long you live. Which is the case for a lot of older people. Brennan: Okay—how do we do that? How do we extend healthspan? Tayag: So we don't know how to guarantee an extended lifespan yet. But we do know how to increase healthspan: Eat well, exercise, sleep a lot, connect with people. It's all the stuff we've been talking about this season. Brennan: And did Dr. Rabheru have any more advice, too? Tayag: Well I thought you might ask. So I asked Dr. Rabheru what his advice to his patients is. Rabheru: So for many, many years, I have given the same prescription to every single patient I see. Tayag: That's after the break. [ Music. ] [ Midroll.] Tayag: Dr. Rabheru, I have one last question for you. As a person who is aging yourself, like all of us are, what is one piece of advice you think we could all benefit from? Rabheru: Well, I'll tell you—so, for many, many years, I have given the same prescription to every single patient I see. When you leave my office or clinic or hospital, when you go home, here's my prescription for you. It's the rule of 20s. So: I need you to give at least 20 smiles a day. Okay? Because as soon as you're smiling, it changes the way your brain works. Second is to do 20 minutes of activity of some sort; and I usually say walking, because physical activity is really important for health, right? But try and get 20 minutes of walking. And thirdly: Socialize for 20 minutes a day. And not just with the person you're living with; that's fine too, but try and do something outside of yourself. So, those are three basic things you can do, and then all the treatment I give you will be much more effective. Tayag: I love it; the 20 rule. I'm going to do this today. It seems easy enough. I'm smiling a lot after this conversation, and so I smiled a lot. I've talked to you for way more than 20 minutes, and I guess I just have to go on a walk later. Dr. Rabheru, thank you so much. Rabheru: Likewise, Yasmin; thank you. [ Music. ] Brennan: Yasmin, I do think that a really important part of this conversation is making sure we highlight the aspects of aging that people are excited about. When we asked listeners for those voicemails, we didn't just ask what people were nervous about as they aged. Sue: What are you looking forward to? Well, the biggest thing is no more shoulds. I'm tired of shoulds. You should do this. You should do that. I don't care about shoulds anymore, and the freedom of doing what I want when I want to. John Shuey: What are you looking forward to as you age? Well. Staying mobile and fit and able to get around. And I really do get around. I, despite my age, I can shovel snow for two hours. I ride bikes 35 miles at a time. I just, I basically feel like I'm 40. Is there someone in your life who has made you excited to get older? And yeah. It's this girl from high school. I married her, and we have a great time together. Lynn Clark: I wanted to leave this message for all the women who are nervous about aging. At age 30 I started my own business. I've raised two children and was widowed by age 59. At age 60, I started weight-resistance training and cycling. I am slowly backing out of my company towards full retirement. I moved part-time to another state, something I wouldn't have dreamed of when I was younger. Susan Anthony: I do stand-up comedy. I do all sorts of weird and wonderful new sports, whatever really takes my fancy. And I kind of enjoy that, and I can just, like, head off in whatever direction I feel like. And all of it is about just that desire to continue to grow. The next question you had was: Who do you hope to be like when you are older? That phrase that I think Clint Eastwood is known for—'Don't let the old man in'—and I think that's really where the secret lies. I see so many people who just let the old person in, and I don't want to do that. And so I admire anyone who really doesn't allow that to happen. Tayag: Don't let the old man in. Brennan: Or, maybe better: Change your idea of what the old man is like! Tayag: Right. My dad is on a 70+ senior basketball team, and I like the old man they let in. Like, they are just always looking forward to the next game, the next tournament, and just getting to hang out. And they're still so excited for what's to come. Brennan: Yeah, I think for me it's like: healthspan, lifespan … I want to extend my curiosity-span. Tayag: Zest-span. Brennan: Joie de vivre–span. Tayag: Exactement. Looking forward–span. [ Beep. ] Myron Murray: I want to see 'em land on Mars. I want to see 'em land and live on the moon. I want to see all the new things that are gonna come and we're going to get to see. [ Music. ] Tayag: That's all for this episode of How to Age Up. This episode was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayag, and co-hosted and produced by Natalie Brennan. Our editors are Claudine Ebeid and Jocelyn Frank. Fact-check by Ena Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smierciak. Rob also composed some of the music for this show. The executive producer of audio is Claudine Ebeid, and the managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez. Tayag: Looking to the future doesn't always feel easy when climate issues loom large.
Yahoo
21-04-2025
- Health
- Yahoo
How to Fuel Up
Food trends are constantly changing, so can people commit to a long-term nutrition practice? Kera Nyemb-Diop says yes. She is a nutrition scientist focused on breaking down the 'rules' of what people think they should eat and focusing instead on being responsive to how our needs change over the course of a life. Co-hosts Yasmin Tayag and Natalie Brennan reconsider their own food habits and which practices are worth hanging on to for the long haul. How do you think about aging? Please leave us a voicemail (at 202-266-7701) with your name, your age, and your answers to the following questions: What aspects of aging are you nervous about? What are you looking forward to as you age? Who do you hope to be like when you are older? Is there someone in your life who has made you excited about getting older? Leaving a voicemail means that you are consenting to the possibility of The Atlantic using your audio in a future episode of How To. Listen and subscribe here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Pocket CastsNatalie Brennan: I just saw a video last week that I couldn't even tell if it was satire or not. They were freezing cottage cheese curds—freezing them—and calling it 'protein Dippin' Dots.' Yasmin Tayag: That's got to be a joke. Brennan: I mean, we can only hope! Brennan: I need to know how high cottage cheese sales are up. Could you look that up? Tayag: [Typing noises.] Okay, in the past five years, cottage cheese sales are up more than 50 percent. Brennan: Fifty percent! That is so much cottage cheese. [Laughs.] Tayag: I'm Yasmin Tayag, a staff writer with The Atlantic. Brennan: And I'm Natalie Brennan, producer at The Atlantic. Tayag: This is How to Age Up. [Music ends.] Tayag: Okay, Natalie, have you fallen for any food trends? Brennan: All of them. All of them. I've tried basically everything except for prayer. I was plant based; now I'm eating ground turkey like it's my job. I had a kombucha phase. I'm desperately worried about my gut health. And I did start buying a brand of oat milk with no seed oils, I fear. Tayag: Girl! Not the seed oils! I've been writing about them so much in my coverage of food and health at The Atlantic … all these claims that they're toxic are not backed up by the research. Brennan: I know. It's just like, if someone tells me you shouldn't have processed additives in your drink, I'm like Okay! Maybe that's why my stomach hurts! Tayag: I mean, I get it. I get the sense that a lot of people are worried that the food being sold to them is making them sick. One of the reasons food trends are so popular is because people feel bad! We feel unwell! For so many different reasons. Like, you know I had COVID recently, and I didn't even realize it because I thought feeling so terrible was my baseline. So changing what you eat seems like a really easy way to fix what's wrong with you. Which is in some ways fair—ou know, there's lots of research coming out showing that eating too much ultra-processed food, which makes up the bulk of what's sold in American grocery stores, is unhealthy in a lot of specific ways. Brennan: But it's interesting to see, now, these very real concerns co-opted politically. Right? Like I didn't imagine that criticizing ultra-processed foods could have me worrying that I was aligning myself politically with MAHA ['Make America Healthy Again'] wellness supporters. Tayag: You're right. We're at a very interesting time right now, where food and the way it's produced is being politicized. You know, with RFK Jr. [Robert F. Kennedy Jr.] as the health secretary, food is increasingly being framed in either of two ways: It's either you eat the MAHA way—which is drinking raw milk and eating beef tallow and only having 'natural' foods—or you're, like, a shill for Big Food and eat all this terrible processed stuff. Which is confusing, because I don't feel like most people fit neatly into either of those categories, and it's just not the right way to think about eating. The big problem I see is this disconnect between what people think they should be eating and what they actually need, nutritionally. And I think the popularity of food trends shows how much we've lost sight of what we actually need. Brennan: I do find when it comes to food trends, everything is very black and white. We're often told that each nutrition trend is the best way to eat, and it all seems very one-size-fits-all. And also, I constantly then feel confused, as the advice always seems like it's always changing. [Music.] Tayag: I spoke to Dr. Kera Nyemb-Diop about this. She's a nutrition scientist and coach who is really focused on breaking down the 'rules' of what people think they should eat and instead teaching them how to feed themselves over the course of a life. Kera Nyemb-Diop: Our nutritional needs evolve across the different stages of life. Our body shifts from growth to maintenance and eventually preservation. In childhood, nutrition is all about growth and development. So kids gonna need more calories, protein, key nutrients to support their rapidly growing bodies. Then during adolescence you also have growth, but you have to consider hormonal changes. And then there's adulthood, when the focus moves to maintaining health, preventing chronic conditions. And then you have older adulthood, when you have some real serious physiological changes that impact eating. Appetite can decrease; sense of taste and smell can fade. And so, it's important to consider that aspect when making food choices. Tayag: I find that the conversation around eating these days is so focused on getting more of a certain supplement or mineral or nutrient. Nyemb-Diop: I agree. Tayag: You know one that stands out to me is the obsession with getting more protein—everywhere you go, it's 'added protein'! They're even making baby food with added protein. What do you make of this? Nyemb-Diop: As a nutritionist, I think protein is important. Yes, it plays a critical role in maintaining muscle, supporting metabolism, or contributing to how satisfied we feel after meals—but then there's the marketing. So, in my opinion, this is more marketing than nutrition. And there's some exaggeration happening. Most people don't need to track every gram of protein. And I honestly feel we gave fruits and vegetables the same level of hype and attention because this is something that most Americans aren't getting enough of those. So I would say: Yes, protein is essential, but also it's a trend, and trends come with noise. Tayag: So who actually might need more protein? Nyemb-Diop: So we know that people who exercise a lot, athletes: They definitely need more protein. So depending on your exercise level—now everybody's talking about building muscle mass. So, I would say that's definitely a moment where you should be maybe more intentional about your protein intake. Also, you know, I would say pregnancy, postpartum phase, or after a surgery or an injury, may be a moment where you need to be more intentional about what you eat. The growth phase for kids and teenagers: I think it's important to be intentional. But at the same time, being intentional about eating healthy is enough. Tayag: I think people understand that, at least in theory. But it's so easy to get swept up in food trends because there are just so many! Protein, like we spoke about, probiotics, collagen, adaptogens … they become popular, then they fade out. What do you think is behind these shifts? Nyemb-Diop: With social media, there's a little bit too much information. It's a mix of, you know, companies trying to push their products and people's interest growing and, you know, a high understanding of how food can be healing, how food can actually impact our health. And I think that's the perfect environment for trends to be popular. One thing I would say—and I always say to the people I work with—is to try to disconnect from that a little bit and think about, Okay, what do you actually like? What do you enjoy eating? What seems difficult? What have you tried and wasn't possible? What do you do without thinking that is actually a good habit that you need to keep? And what do you need to work on a little? What habit do you need to implement in your life? When you think about nutrition recommendations, it's always sold as a one-size-fits-all. And I get it; you know, it's easier, because you need to give the better recommendations for the maximum amount of people. But it doesn't work this way. We have different realities, different preferences, so I think it's important to adjust. Tayag: One trend that stands out to me is plant-based eating, which generally seems good. And I've seen it intersect with the protein trend, in that plant-based protein is supposedly healthier than animal-based protein. How should we be thinking about this? Nyemb-Diop: Overall, I think that plant-based eating is a positive trend. I will not fight against this one. But I understand that it's confusing. It's something that's very positive for health. So it's something I would encourage. Tayag: Yeah, it's definitely confusing to view food in such granular terms. But that's how lots of people conceptualize it. What's one of the biggest misconceptions you hear about how to eat? Nyemb-Diop: Honestly, one of the biggest misconceptions—the first thing I'm thinking now—is that you shouldn't eat carbs. That's one of the things I hear the most. And I really breathe and try to explain to people why carbs are actually important. And you know, if you've been eating carbs most of your life, you'll be fine. So, that's one. And if you like white rice—just eat the white rice, add more veggies on the side. You know, it's more simple than we think. But I guess people need someone to remind them of that. Tayag: My parents are gonna love hearing you say that if they want to eat the white rice, they can just eat the white rice. I've been trying to get them to switch to brown rice for years. [Laughs.] Nyemb-Diop: Yes, that's a big question. I know my clients love to hear that—they just love me, when I say that you can eat the white rice, and you can add fiber in other ways. You know, it doesn't have to be through brown rice. I would say, to me, the other misconception is that you should be very focused on your calorie intake. I'm not saying your calorie intake is not important; you know, eating enough or eating too much, it needs to be addressed. But all these diets—you think they are really focused on, you know, health? My understanding is that they are really focused on appearance, looking a certain way. [Music.] Tayag: Natalie, as you know, I'm in the middle of trying to figure out a long-term healthy diet for myself after a recent cardiologist appointment … she looked at my blood work and was like, okay, something needs to change here. Brennan: I kind of miss your heart monitor. Tayag: You miss me being a cyborg? Brennan: It was kind of cute! Tayag: I do not miss it, because it's made me really conscious about the way I eat. When I was younger, the only thing I really thought about was calories. Calories are so ingrained into our food consciousness from an early age. But now, my doctor is worried about my blood pressure and my blood sugar and my cholesterol, so I'm having to think about reducing salt, switching to whole-grain bread, and even eating oatmeal for fiber … I hate oatmeal! Brennan: Actually, no one said you HAVE to eat oatmeal! Tayag: I know, and actually Dr. Nyemb-Diop is helping me rethink this new shift in eating. When she was talking about healthy ways of eating and was like, 'What do you actually like? What do you enjoy eating?' that reframed my approach to my doctor's recommendations. Brennan: Right. I think it could be really helpful to think about this as additive rather than restrictive. So, what are the foods that you enjoy? That delight you? That still fit in your doctor's recommendations, that you want to be eating more of and can fill up more of your plate, rather than making switches that you don't enjoy? Tayag: Right; like, this is a diet I'm going to have to keep up for life. It's meant to prevent chronic disease. They are in my genes. But I can't be eating oatmeal forever if I hate it. So now I'm thinking about ways I might be already getting fiber, and how I can just do more of that. I mean, I already eat a lot of beans … maybe there's just going to be more of them in my future. Brennan: I've got some good bean recipes for you. Tayag: Please send them over! Brennan: I think it is interesting: In American culture, there are two ways that people tend to embrace big changes in their eating habits. One is for personal efforts for weight loss, and the other is when a physician says they have a medical need to change their diet. We don't have a great understanding of how to embrace smaller, more gradual age-specific changes as we age up. Tayag: Right; like Dr. Nyemb-Diop mentioned that our nutritional needs change as we get older. But I've never thought about that! I never saw my parents think about that. They eat the same now as they did 30 years ago. Brennan: Yeah? Tayag: I've been doing a lot of research on this for my own personal health, and there's a study from Harvard and a few other universities that came out in March that I found to be really helpful. It looked at 30 years of data on the food habits of over 100,000 middle-aged adults. Brennan: Whoa. And what did it find? Tayag: Okay, so getting more plant-based foods, with low to moderate intake of healthy animal-based food was linked to a higher likelihood of healthy aging—which they defined as reaching age 70 without any major chronic diseases, and having good cognitive, physical, and mental health. Brennan: Okay, so backing up Dr. Nyemb-Diop's claim that plant-based … not just a trend! Tayag: Not a trend, just a healthy part of a long-term diet. But back to the Harvard study: One thing that I thought was really interesting was that the study looked at eight different healthy dietary patterns in midlife … and all of them were associated with healthy aging, which suggests there's no single best way to eat. Brennan: Okay, so healthy diets can be adapted to fit individual needs and preferences. There's no set rule book. Amazing news for you and oatmeal. [Music.] Nyemb-Diop: You are not supposed to eat the same way all your life; your tastes are gonna change. And just try to think about the way you eat as something dynamic and flexible. You're going to do your best to eat in a way that's aligned with your, you know, values and your needs, most of the time. But there's no perfect ways of eating. [Music out.] Tayag: What you're describing sounds to me a lot like intuitive eating. You know, this idea that you should eat what your body tells you rather than try to control your diet. What are your thoughts on it? Nyemb-Diop: I think it's an interesting approach. It's definitely inspiring. However, I'm not aligned on every single aspect, because I think that sometimes, depending on your circumstances, you do need to think a little bit more about how you're going to eat. I feel intuitive eating is really geared toward someone who has financial privilege, when you can afford not to really think about how you're gonna eat tomorrow, when you can afford to focus on your inner hunger and fullness without, you know—because you know you're gonna have food all the time. Tayag: I sometimes hear intuitive eating positioned as the polar opposite of traditional diets with strict limits on what and when and how much you can eat—which are still so popular. How does this show up with the people you work with? Nyemb-Diop: So my clients are serial dieters; they come from years and years, decades, of dieting and cycling between, you know, from one diet to another. So I'm very familiar with that. And I think that's … you know, I understand. When you think about it, nutrition can feel overwhelming. And so it may be difficult to navigate. And so, a diet is a structure. It feels safe. So that's why people are attracted to these diets. But, you know, I'm trying to demonstrat they can trust their intuition to nourish themself. Tayag: So how do you teach people how to adopt that approach to eating? Nyemb-Diop, I try to not see things in black and white. You know, 'You have to follow a set of rules to nourish yourself.' It's more nuances of gray. These are, you know, some principles that are true in nutrition, and then how to make this a regular part of your life without being obsessed with it. What are your struggles? So, you know, it's really personalized, I would say. But the first step is okay, when people come to me, they 'failed,' quote unquote, failed so many diets. And so they feel they are a failure. And so, the first step is showing them: They know, and they need to focus on what they need, instead of those rules that don't … that are not a good fit. Tayag: What would it look like for me, for example, to build healthy eating habits around my needs? I'm in my late 30s, and I have no time! Nyemb-Diop: Yes, we're about the same age, and I do feel that for myself as well. You probably have young kids to take care of. You have aging parents; you have a full-time job. You are very busy. So I think the first thing I'm thinking about is, you know, keeping that in mind when I provide recommendations. Sometimes I hear people say 'whole food only.' I love that, but is it actually doable? Me, when I'm thinking about that reality, I'm thinking about Let's go to what's practical: the frozen section, precut vegetables. You need to be easy. We don't have much time. So I think time management is a big part of nutrition at that age. Tayag: Frozen spinach is a must in my freezer. Nyemb-Diop: Yes; frozen spinach, being practical. But I don't think there should be a big change in the way you eat unless you have a condition that the doctor has identified. But you know, I would say, if you follow the general recommendation, you shouldn't have to worry about those details. Tayag: We're going to take a short break. But when we come back …. Brennan: Why is everyone re-talking about the Blue Zones right now? [Midroll.] Brennan: Yasmin, you know, we've been talking a lot here about not focusing on any one specific diet, right? But instead being flexible and dynamic and listening to your own food preferences. And it's funny, because I'm seeing the Blue Zones pop up again everywhere right now. Which lots of people think of as maybe the key to how to be eating healthy. But now, that idea is being challenged, right? The Atlantic just published an episode on the podcast Good On Paper about this. I'm seeing article after article. Catch us up: Why is everyone re-talking about the Blue Zones right now? Tayag: The idea of the Blue Zones has been around for over two decades now. It's based on this idea that there are these 'zones' in the world where people live to be 100 or older—like Okinawa, Japan; Sardinia, Italy; Loma Linda, California; and Ikaria in Greece. What people have really focused on is what people in these places eat—lots of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes—and the idea has turned into a whole brand that now sells Blue Zone food, cooking classes, even skin care now. But the reason why it's in the news again is because this researcher, Saul Newman, looked into data on extreme old age and argued that the Blue Zone concept is really sketchy. Like, one of his claims is that a lot of people who were said to be 100 may not actually have been that old. So it has raised some doubts about the entire concept altogether. Brennan: I mean, I watched the Netflix special, and I started eating more beans and trying to walk more. But mostly, I just felt angry that I don't live in a community where these practices being discussed were the norm. That's really the biggest takeaway, right? Like, I'm not sure I can bean my way into new approaches to urban planning and then get centennial status. Tayag: Exactly. We've focused so much on what people in these places eat—which is great, basically the Mediterranean diet—but what stands out to me is that these people, whether they're actually 100 or just very old, also live in societies that are different from the typical American. They have a lot of outdoor time; they've got lots of family around; their food is local; they have time to nap! Like, if I could nap every day, I would have a way better shot at living to 100. But that's the frustrating thing about the popularity of the Blue Zones: No matter how closely you follow the diet, it doesn't lock in the lifestyle that goes with it! [Music.] Brennan: So then: Because what we eat is one of the only things we feel like we can control, we expect it to do a lot of things for us. That's a lot of pressure to put on our food. Tayag: That reminds me of this concept that's become super popular in the nutrition space: 'food as medicine.' Which I asked Dr. Nyemb-Diop about… [Music out.] Nyemb-Diop: So, food as medicine. I think first I'd like to define what it means, because probably what you just described is the belief that eating certain food can prevent or heal diseases. And so, you know, I'm a nutritionist because I believe in the healing power of food. I do believe food can support energy, immunity, mood, and long-term health. But my issue is that food-as-medicine discourse is that it framed food as an individual problem. It focuses too much on individual responsibility, and not enough on the systems that create food environments in the first place. And so to me, sometimes it can shift that tension away from the policy change, like investing in equitable food systems, addressing structural inequalities. So yes: I support the concept, but only if it's framed as part of a broader solution that includes systemic change. Tayag: It does seem like there's a lot of pressure on the individual to make food choices for themselves, but there are important communal aspects to eating, too, right? How does that factor into how you discuss food choices with clients? Nyemb-Diop: When we talk about cooking, we immediately understand the community or the sharing aspect of cooking—you know, cooking for others. But when we talk about nutrition, it's always framed in an individualistic frame, that You have to eat this for your health. But when you actually bring the two together, you realize that, sometimes nourishing yourself, you can have support. So, it's not only you; it's your support, the support system that can help you make better choices. And you know, if I think about just kids' nutrition—my own example, you know, when you work with kids, especially toddlers, we talk a lot about picky eating. And something I've noticed, and we know kids tend to imitate their parents. And in my husband's culture, we tend to eat on a communal plate. And what I've noticed is that my kids eat much more fruit and vegetables when we eat on a communal plate, when we eat together, than when I give them a plate on their own. So these are, you know, strategies to just eat healthier. I was trained in France, where culture, community aspect, eating around the table are embedded in our understanding of nutrition. I don't think here, it is as much. But it's definitely something I would focus on. Tayag: How does it affect how you study food habits here? Is it like a superpower, where you can see exactly what's going wrong here? Nyemb-Diop: Yes. A little bit. I'm at the interface of different food cultures. And so being at the interface gives me that superpower. Not necessarily coming from outside, but just understanding that culture, and the way food connects us is so important. It gives me that superpower. I have to say, it has been a cultural shock for me when I moved to the United States a few years ago. So when it comes to, you know, finding other ways, or finding other solutions or innovating, it's definitely an asset. And to me, it's very interesting, for example, when people feel so guilty because they eat after a certain time, after 8 p.m. When, in my country where I grew up, you know, dinner's at 8:30. To me it's fascinating and very interesting, but it's one of the reasons why I love what I do. And it triggers some very interesting conversations. It's helped me think about different options when it comes to healthy eating. Tayag: You know, your handle on social media is ' Can you tell me about that choice? [Music.] Nyemb-Diop: When I moved into the United States, I moved into a majority African American area. And what happened is every time, you know, I was introducing myself saying I was a nutritionist. People were like A nutritionist? I never met a Black nutritionist. And I heard that so many times that I realized it was actually something to be a Black nutritionist. It meant something to people. I learned after that, you know, only 3 percent of dieticians and nutritionists are Black nutritionists. And of course, you know, I went through the nutrition curriculum. I always felt a little bit like an outsider. Always felt that, you know—that, let's say, focus on the Mediterranean diet was not necessarily super smart. And I always felt that way, and I saw an opportunity to say, Okay, let's build something, and let's address some of the questions that are important to us. This is actually who I am. I'm a Black woman. I love nutrition, I love food, and I have the training, and I have the cultural understanding to do something special for my community. Tayag: Well, thank you so much for this amazing chat. Nyemb-Diop: Thank you so much. Tayag: Really lovely to talk to you. [Music.] Brennan: Yas, I think this conversation has helped me think a lot about trusting my own intuition—I know what is healthy, I know what foods work for me. And there is no singular food trend or ingredient that is going to revolutionize my diet for healthy aging. Tayag: Same. Brennan: But, you know, everyone has their own relationship to food. And for me, something that has been really helpful in eliminating food guilt, or constant obsession, is thinking about food, sometimes, as an experience. Do you know the poet Frank O'Hara? Tayag: I know that you are sitting across from me in a T-shirt with Frank O'Hara's face on it! Brennan: Correct—I'm obsessed with him. Tayag: I can tell. [Laughs.] Brennan: And a big reason for that is because his poem 'Having a Coke With You' has become a kind of psalm for me. Tayag: I'm not sure I know that one. Brennan: There's a recording of him reading the poem himself, and I've listened to it so many times, that without even trying, I have the poem memorized. He begins by saying 'Having a Coke with you is even more fun than…' Is even more fun than going to San Sebastian, Irún, Hendaye, Biarritz, Bayonne / or being sick to my stomach on the Travesera de Gracia in Barcelona / partly because in your orange shirt you look like a better happier St. Sebastian / partly because of my love for you, partly because of your love for yoghurt… Brennan: And then he lists all of the things that sharing a soda with his loved one is better than. And, you know, he takes it one step further. He begins to question what good is all the research when it can't capture an experience with somebody you love. The works of the Impressionists, Futurists, Michelangelo. None of it compares. And what good does all the research of the Impressionists do them when they never got the right person to stand near the tree when the sun sank? Tayag: None of them as good as sharing a drink with someone you love. Brennan: Exactly. Tayag: Yeah; I mean, that makes sense to me. And I think it's important for us to remember that, you know, of course what we eat is important for our nutrition and our health and our lifespan. But it also matters when and where and with whom you're eating it. Brennan: Yeah. Tayag: Like, you could have the most amazing, plant-based, nutritionally adequate diet. But if you're eating it alone all the time—that's not gonna be great for you. When I think about the food memories that are most important to me, they honestly have less to do with the food than with the context, right? Brennan: Yeah. Tayag: Like my favorite food memory is from when I was, like, 7 years old. I was swimming in my cousin's outdoor pool in the Philippines with all of my little cousins, and one of the aunties had one of those grilled-cheese makers by the side of the pool, and she was just whipping out these little grilled-sardines sandwiches! And just handing them out to us fresh outta the pool. And we would be so hungry, and it was just so warm and salty. And that, to me, was the happiest food moment. Brennan: And that's a lot coming from you, a foodie. Tayag: Yeah. You know, give me the sardines on toast. Brennan: Yeah. Or you know, for me—every once in a while—a Coke. The poem has given me a lot of permission to remember that food isn't just always about its ingredients; it's also about ceremony and connection, and delighting in what is shared. It seems they were all cheated of some marvelous experience / which is not going to go wasted on me, which is why I'm telling you about it. Tayag: The marvelous experience of sharing a meal … not wasted on me either, Mr. O'Hara! Brennan: And I will tell you, and tell you, and tell you about it. [Music.] Tayag: That's all for this episode of How to Age Up. This episode was hosted by me, Yasmin Tayag, and co-hosted and produced by Natalie Brennan. Our editors are Claudine Ebeid and Jocelyn Frank. Fact-check by Ena Alvarado. Our engineer is Rob Smierciak. Rob also composed some of the music for this show. The executive producer of audio is Claudine Ebeid, and the managing editor of audio is Andrea Valdez. Brennan: Next time on How to Age Up: While we are the most age-diverse society we've ever been, we're simultaneously the most age-segregated. Tayag: What we can learn from intergenerational partnerships, to age up together. We'll be back with you on Monday. Article originally published at The Atlantic
