Latest news with #Overcast
Business of Fashion
20-05-2025
- Business
- Business of Fashion
How Fashion Brands Build Community in 2025
Listen to and follow 'The Debrief': Apple Podcasts|Spotify|Overcast Background: As inflation bites and politics polarise, the fashion industry in 2025 is facing unprecedented pressure to hold onto its customers. Brands are looking to community as a deeper and more emotional form of engagement. But building true community takes more than buzzwords. In this episode, BoF correspondent Lei Takanashi joins hosts Sheena Butler-Young and Brian Baskin to unpack his case study on what it really means to cultivate community in fashion and how brands are navigating the pitfalls. Key Insights: In a time when consumers are thinking hard about every purchase, community offers a sense of connection and meaning that goes beyond the product itself. 'When I'm shopping today, I'm thinking more about what eggs I'm going to buy this week than the latest release from a brand,' says Takanashi. 'What really now drives me to make a purchase is like, what does this brand represent? What are its values? How has it improved my life beyond just something I wear?' Different communities serve different purposes, each demanding a unique approach. Takanashi outlines three community types: activity-based, personality-driven and values-driven. Activity-based communities are rooted in shared interests or habits, such as running, where engagement happens naturally through events or clubs. Personality-driven communities hinge on a founder's charisma and relatability: 'People have to see that founder story and kind of see themselves in their shoes.' Values-driven communities connect through shared beliefs and causes, but those values must be dynamic. 'Your definition of a value can't be rigid,' says Takanashi. 'You have to adapt to how consumers perceive these things.' As brands grow, scaling community takes local focus to remain authentic. 'As long as you stay committed to a localised approach and understand that it's not one size fits all,' Takanashi says, pointing to Arc'teryx and Supreme as examples of brands that scale through local relevance and hiring. In addition to staying local, real-world interaction matters and brands shouldn't rely solely on digital engagement. 'You should really be there in person at pop-ups, shake hands with people, talk to the customer... Every brand I spoke about in this case study made some effort to show up in real life.' Additional Resources:
Associated Press
16-04-2025
- Associated Press
Learn More by Listening: Why Audioread's Convenience Outweighs Traditional Learning Barriers
Turn downtime into learning time with seamless, on-the-go listening that transforms the '10% retention' myth into a superpower. In today's fast-paced world, traditional learning methods often fall short of meeting the demands of busy professionals and multitaskers. Enter Audioread, a cutting-edge text-to-speech platform that transforms written content into audio, enabling users to absorb knowledge anywhere, anytime. By leveraging dead time—like commuting, exercising, or doing chores—Audioread helps users consume up to 10x more content than traditional learning methods. Breaking Down the Numbers: Volume > Per-Minute Efficiency The age-old debate about reading versus listening often centers on retention rates: people retain roughly 10% of what they hear compared to 20% of what they read. But this narrow focus misses the bigger picture. The Math of Learning Efficiency • Reading: Spend 30 minutes daily reading and retain 20%, gaining 6 minutes of retained knowledge. • Listening with Audioread: Spend 3 hours daily multitasking while listening and retain 10%, gaining 18 minutes of retained knowledge—three times more. This 'volume advantage' is why high performers increasingly prioritize audio learning. A 2024 study in Educational Technology found that adults who listened to audiobooks while multitasking absorbed 2.5x more content monthly than dedicated readers, despite slightly lower per-session retention. 'The real productivity unlock isn't about squeezing more out of every minute you read—it's about turning all the minutes you're not reading into learning time. That's what Audioread makes possible.' - Ryan, CEO of Audioread Why Listening Works: The Neuroscience of Convenience Critics often argue that listening is passive, but modern research tells a different story: • Dual-coding theory: Audio stimulates auditory processing while freeing the brain to visualize concepts, enhancing creativity. • Emotional engagement: Narrators' tone and pacing boost empathy and narrative recall, making complex ideas stickier. • Repetition without friction: Relistening to an Audioread file during a walk is easier than rereading a dense PDF. A 2025 University of Waterloo study confirmed that audio learners recall 27% more details from non-fiction than readers as the brain attaches information to real-world contexts (e.g., 'I learned this while cooking'). Audioread's Game-Changing Features While other platforms offer text-to-speech options, Audioread stands out with three key features designed for seamless learning: 1. Effortless Content Integration • Subscribe to RSS feeds to auto-convert newsletters and blogs into audio. • Forward PDFs, reports, or emails to your Audioread address for instant playlist access. • Drag-and-drop textbooks or scanned documents for quick conversion. 2. Centralized Knowledge Hub • Sync Audioread with Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Overcast, and other podcast players. • Create playlists combining morning news podcasts, work reports, and evening novels—all sorted by priority or topic. 3. Retention-Boosting Tools • Adjustable playback speed for technical or familiar content. • AI summaries for quick refreshers before diving back into an article. • Offline access for uninterrupted learning during flights or remote work. Real-Life Wins: How Audioread Users Outlearn Readers Case Study 1 – The Busy Executive Challenge: A two-hour daily commute leaves no time for industry reports. Solution: Convert 50-page PDFs into audio files; listen at 1.5x speed during drives. Result: Completes 15 reports/month compared to just three when reading. Case Study 2 – The Lifelong Learner Challenge: Struggles to sit still but wants to read 100 books/year. Solution: Listen to three books/week while gardening or cleaning. Result: Finishes 140 books/year by leveraging repetition and multitasking. Debunking the '10% Myth' The infamous 'Learning Pyramid' (5% lecture retention, 10% reading) is based on outdated theories from the 1940s — not modern neuroscience. Contemporary studies show: • No significant retention difference between reading and listening for non-fiction content. • Audio learners often outperform readers in applied scenarios (e.g., discussing concepts). As one Audioread user said, 'I've listened to over 300 business books since starting Audioread. Even at 10% retention, that's like absorbing the key ideas from 30 books—far more than I could ever read.' Ready to transform your downtime into productive learning? Visit today and start your free trial—your podcast app will thank you. About Audioread Audioread is an innovative text-to-speech platform designed to help users maximize their learning potential by converting written content into audio files that can be listened to on their webapp or synced with any podcast player. Whether it's newsletters, PDFs, e-books or articles, Audioread makes knowledge accessible anytime, anywhere—empowering users to learn more while doing less. Media Contact: Ryan Walter CEO Email: [email protected] Phone: +1 (951) 666-3443Media Contact Company Name: Audioread Contact Person: Ryan Walter - CEO Email: Send Email Phone: +1 (951) 666-3443 Country: United States Website: Source: PR Gun
WIRED
27-03-2025
- Business
- WIRED
Unpacking ‘Good Quests,' Christianity, and Caviar Bumps
Photo-Illustration:If you buy something using links in our stories, we may earn a commission. Learn more. The mission of Silicon Valley's entrepreneurs has long been to change the world. But, how do you know whether a pursuit is good or bad? ACTS17 collective, a Christian faith-based group of tech entrepreneurs, says a strong relationship with God is the answer. Today on the show, we talk about the people promoting a faith-based approach to tech, we learn what a 'good quest' is, and we ask what impact religion will have on the type of ventures the valley pursues in the future. You can follow Michael Calore on Bluesky at @snackfight, Lauren Goode on Bluesky at @laurengoode, and Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Michael Calore: Question for the group. When was the last time you went to church? Zoë Schiffer: That's a big question. I'm Jewish, so I think we go to a temple, not church. And I went pretty recently, for the High Holidays. Lauren? Michael Calore: Very nice. Lauren Goode: Lovely. I think I went when I was on vacation. I like popping into churches when I'm traveling to different places. Michael Calore: Nice. Light a little candle? Lauren Goode: Yeah, just look at the architecture. Zoë Schiffer: That's cool. What about you, Mike? Lauren Goode: Yeah. What about you? Michael Calore: I swear I was listening to what you were both saying, but while you were talking, while also listening, I was also racking my brain to try and remember the last time that I was in a church, and I cannot remember the last time. I really just do not know. Zoë Schiffer: That's totally fair. Michael Calore: Well, Silicon Valley has its own relationship with God, and that is what we're going to be talking about this week. Is everybody ready? Zoë Schiffer: I'm very ready. Lauren Goode: I'm ready for confession time. Michael Calore: This is WIRED's Uncanny Valley, a show about the people power and influence of Silicon Valley. I'm Michael Calore, Director of Consumer Tech and Culture here at WIRED. Lauren Goode: I'm Lauren Goode. I'm a senior writer at WIRED. Zoë Schiffer: And I'm Zoe Schiffer WIRED's, Director of Business and Industry. Michael Calore: Power, money and Influence. This has long been part of the allure for many in the tech world, but for a growing group in the Valley, there's a new path to success, God. Today, we're talking about the Silicon Valley Christians who are promoting a faith-based approach to innovation. We'll drop in on a San Francisco party where tech bigwigs and influential figures talk business and the Bible, we'll learn about, quote, unquote, "Good quests," and we'll ask the big question, what impact will religion have on the type of ventures the Valley pursues in the future? So Lauren, tell us about this party you went to. Lauren Goode: Which one? I go to so many parties. Michael Calore: Well, let's start with the party in New Mexico. Lauren Goode: Yes. Okay. That one. To be totally clear, I was not at this party. It's been written about, and I've heard about it directly from one of the hosts. This was a three-day birthday party held in New Mexico in November of 2023. And the theme of it was The Roast, the Toast and the Holy Ghost. Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh. Say what you will about tech people, but they know how to make a party theme. Lauren Goode: So this party was for the 40th birthday of someone named Trae Stephens, who is a well-known venture capitalist and entrepreneur. WIRED his written about him before. Our colleague, Steven Levy, did a big interview with Trae last year. And this party, according to Trae's wife, Michelle, was designed to be a playoff of Kanye West's Sunday Service. They booked a DJ who remixes worship songs, but also it was like a party, right? They said they served caviar bumps, there was breakfast pizza, there was mimosas. A good time was to be had. But what really kind of stood out from this party is that one of Trae's business partners, Peter Thiel, gave a fire side chat that had all of the attendees talking. Michael Calore: Okay. Zoë Schiffer: I honestly did not know that Peter Thiel was religious at all until I started talking to you about this. Michael Calore: And we should back up and say a little bit about Peter Thiel, and about who he is and why he's important. Lauren Goode: Yeah, for the uninitiated, Peter Thiel is another well-known venture capitalist, and he's known for many reasons. He's one of the original founders of PayPal, the so-called PayPal Mafia. He's an early investor in Facebook, so he's incredibly wealthy. In media circles, he's infamous for having backed the lawsuit that put Gawker Media out of business. In politics, he's been a very vocal supporter of Donald Trump, and Peter Thiel's network of right-wing allies has been infiltrating the Trump administration. And to your point, Zoe, he's also religious. This sermon that he gave at Trae Stephens's birthday party has been described as, "A fire side chat on miracles and forgiveness." And it was after this fire side chat that he gave, that" according to Michelle Stephens, the wife of Trae, people were coming up to her and saying, I didn't know Peter was a Christian. How can you be gay and a billionaire and be Christian?" And even something like, "I didn't know you could be smart in a Christian, "Michelle says that people said to her. Michael Calore: Oh, no. Lauren Goode: And then they started asking, "And where do you go to church in San Francisco?" Michael Calore: So where do they go to church in San Francisco? Zoë Schiffer: They are not talking about doing yoga at Grace Cathedral. Lauren Goode: They go to a church that's called Epic Church, which has been around for several years in San Francisco. But according to the pastor there, it has grown in attendance in recent years. But in addition to the Stephens's being members at this church, and other people in the tech community, Michelle Stephens, who is an entrepreneur, was entrepreneurial and decided to start a non-profit that hosts gatherings where people come and give talks, kind of like the one that Peter Thiel gave at that birthday party. And I ended up going to one of their events recently. It was really interesting. They call this group the ACTS, that's A-C-T-S 17 Collective, and it's an acronym, it stands for Acknowledging Christ in Technology and Society. Michael Calore: And these are ticketed talks? Lauren Goode: They're ticketed talks. Michael Calore: Okay. Lauren Goode: Fifty bucks and you have a direct line to God. He's on your speed dial. Zoë Schiffer: Do they feel more like parties or more like church? Lauren Goode: Well, this is a great question, because the event that I went to recently in San Francisco is in a private home that is a converted church. It was in this room... You're nodding 'cause I think you know exactly where it is. Right? Michael Calore: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Zoë Schiffer: Is it the one by Dolores? Lauren Goode: Yes. Zoë Schiffer: It is? Oh my gosh, I've always been so curious about that space. Lauren Goode: It's beautiful. There's a big cavernous room that has a large arched window in the back on an exposed brick wall, and high ceilings and soundproofing along the walls, wood paneling. So when you are in it, you're like, "I feel like I'm in a church," except that it was low-key party vibes. The DJ was spinning some light beats, ambient music. There were bartenders, there's food. Zoë Schiffer: Caviar or no caviar? Lauren Goode: There were name badges. There were no caviar bumps. Zoë Schiffer: Bummer. Lauren Goode: Such a bummer. Yeah. Michael Calore: And what was the talk? Lauren Goode: So this talk actually featured Trae Stephens himself. The ACTS 17 Collective has done a few previous talks with other people, but this one was Trae being interviewed by a fellow venture capitalist, who appropriately, was named Christian. And they were talking about this concept of good quests, which is something that Trae has written about before. He and a co-writer published an article in 2022 about the idea of good quests. Good quests is a framework for thinking about the work that you do. And let's just assume you're a techie, you're an entrepreneur, you're a venture capitalist, you're a startup person, and you're trying to find meaning through your work. And good quests is a way to find and do work that feels purposeful or meaningful in some way. And that means you are on a good quest. It also means that there are bad quests. Michael Calore: I see. Lauren Goode: Which is a lot of what they talked about. Michael Calore: So, the good quests and bad quests thing sounds like a big topic that we should talk about, but I want to put a pin in it for the moment because I want to talk about the business connections that happen at these meetings. I'm assuming that these meetings are not just for people to get together and listen to conversations about God, but they're probably meetings where people network. And is there a hope that Peter Thiel will show up at these meetings? Lauren Goode: Sorry, I shouldn't laugh. Zoë Schiffer: It was certainly Lauren's hope. Lauren Goode: Yeah. Well, I have a couple questions for him. He has spoken at these events before, so sure, networking is definitely a part of it. And one of the things that Act 17 has said is that they're not only inviting Christians to these events, they're inviting people of all denominations. And even if you're an atheist, you can join. They want to get the conversation started. Some people are there because they genuinely want to find their faith again or be able to express it freely. And I think other people are there for the hang and for the networking, and to rub elbows with people like Trae Stephens or someone like Garry Tan from Y Combinator, who was at this recent event. And I actually think that they're okay with that, because at events like these, the themes of religion and work are commingled so much that sometimes it's indistinguishable to fully understand what it is they're talking about. Michael Calore: Yeah. And Peter Thiel's Faith was such a big catalyst for this movement that the Stephens's have started. And I just wonder if you can get into a little bit about what connection with Peter Thiel is with this group and this couple? Lauren Goode: Yeah, so it's actually quite a big network of Peter Thiel-related companies and investments. So, Peter Thiel runs a venture capital firm called Founders Fund, and Trae Stephens is a partner there. Trae also co-founded Anduril, which is a defense tech company that builds weapons like autonomous drones and underwater vessels. Peter Thiel's Founders Fund is a big investor in Anduril. Trae Stephens was also an early employee at Palantir. Palantir is a data intelligence company that Peter Thiel co-founded with someone named Alex Karp. I mentioned Garry Tan earlier. He was also an early employee at Palantir. Now, he has his own venture capital firm and he runs Y Combinator, but he has been involved in Act 17 events. So this non-profit and their event series was partly inspired by Peter Thiel and just the talk that he gave, but also it's a pretty tight network of really high-profile techies who also happen to be linked to these tech firms that make defense tech for the government who are involved in these talks. Michael Calore: It is such an interesting juxtaposition that these folks who are coming together to talk about their faith, and to talk about Christian values and promoting them in technology, are also building systems that support more. Zoë Schiffer: They don't see those things as in conflict, I don't think, from what I've read. Alex Karp has talked about similar themes. He has a new book out, and he said specifically that the fact that so many smart people are working on social media apps when they could be working on, he doesn't say the word good quests, but it definitely has that flavor, is in his mind a big problem. Lauren Goode: Say more about that, Zoe, because Trae talked a lot about this, too. The consultants at McKinsey and people who are making photo sharing apps are getting a really bad rap these days amongst this crowd. And I want to hear more about what Karp has been saying about that. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. He talks a lot about how the idea that all societies are equal in his mind is simply not true. That we should think of the United States as unique and worthy of protecting and preserving in terms of our culture. And so, if you believe that working on national defense is a really important vocation, a calling even. Just while we're talking about these big name people and their relationship with religion, he was doing a Q & A with Barry Weiss at a university recently, and one of the students asked, "What could we do to help the working class?" And he answered with a bunch of different suggestions, but he said his number one suggestion was introducing them to religion, which I thought was quite interesting. Lauren Goode: It's almost like is there a tension here? Which is I what you're getting at Mike? Michael Calore: Yeah. Lauren Goode: In espousing your beliefs and your religion, but also using it as an interesting framework, where in some cases you're casting a moral judgment upon the jobs that people do in their day-to-day lives or to support their families, to live, basically, right? And it's particularly interesting when it's coming from these powerful figures in technology who happen to build tools and services and apps that are used by the federal government and defense, right? Because you might hold up one and say, "Well, that seems incongruous with doing good things for society." And what's interesting now is that these figures are expressing these ideological and religious beliefs and infusing the Silicon Valley hustle culture with them. Michael Calore: And we'll have to talk more about that culture, but first we need to take a break. So let's do that and come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. So Lauren, when you spoke to Michelle Stephens for your story, she mentioned that she had felt tokenized as a Christian in Silicon Valley. And Christianity was sort of a dirty word in the Valley for a long time. Right? Lauren Goode: I don't know if I would describe it so much as a dirty word as I would that I've heard from people that they maybe have felt uncomfortable before in the highly agnostic Silicon Valley, talking openly in professional settings about their faith. I spoke to one entrepreneur and venture capitalist at the event who said he's been working in the Valley since 2005, and he's always been Christian, but he never really felt like he could wear it on his sleeve before. And more recently, and he specifically said since the pandemic, he's been a little bit more open about it. And through that, has been pleasantly surprised to see other people say, "Oh, hey, I'm a Christian too." But I think Silicon Valley in general, you're right, has long been perceived as agnostic and even atheistic. Some of the data, however, shows that people are actually more rooted in religion that you would think, because Silicon like a big geographical place. It's not just the tech industry. Michael Calore: So, you're saying that this large contingent of humanity is not a monolith? Lauren Goode: Right, exactly. They're all wearing hoodies and Apple watches, but they're not all the same. Michael Calore: Is there any data about what the breakdown of Christians and non-Christians are in Silicon Valley? Lauren Goode: Yeah, that's a good question. And we have to zoom out a little bit, because the most recent data we have from Pew Research looks at religion in California and religion in the San Francisco metro area, but not, quote, unquote, "Silicon Valley specifically." In the San Francisco metro area, 46% of adults identify as Christian, and that's only down slightly from a decade ago. But an increasing number of people say they are religiously unaffiliated. That's at 42% compared with 35% a decade ago. And then in California, broadly, the number of people who identify with other religions, like Judaism and Islam, has largely remained the same over the past decade. So, in short, there are a fair number of Christians in the San Francisco metro area, but I would say the biggest sort of counterforce to that is agnosticism. And Zoe, I want to hear your thoughts on this too, because I know we've had some conversations about the alternative things that people do for self-discovery in Silicon Valley, this idea of like, "Well, I have a practice, like a meditation practice," or, "I have certain rituals that I do." And they find community in different places, but they're not necessarily rooted in religion with a capital R. Zoë Schiffer: Right. Yeah. I do think the kind of psychedelic experimentation, the Burning Man of it all can serve a similar function, giving people a sense of belonging, something outside of themselves that they're engaged with, and all of those things can be really meaningful. Michael Calore: And how do folks like the Stephens and the ACTS 17 crowd feel about these spiritual pursuits that are non-Christian, non-Western spiritual pursuits? Lauren Goode: The sense that I get is that these things are not mutually exclusive. You could go on your shroom trips or your workshops at Esalen, or I don't know, whatever other sort of- Michael Calore: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Lauren Goode: Yeah, we're all going, "Yes. Yes, yes." All of the agnostic practices. And that doesn't exclude you from having a religious practice that is rooted in historical texts or some sort of established God, or has an official church, I think. They're saying, at least initially, "Our arms are open. Anyone can come to these events." I'm willing to bet that of the 200 plus people who were there at the event that I went to, that some of them have probably dabbled in other rituals. Zoë Schiffer: Extracurricular activities. Lauren Goode: That's right. Michael Calore: They've been to the psytrance rave and taken the molly, and talked about their app. Lauren Goode: Sure. And talked about their app. Yeah, exactly. They're still talking about their apps. And I don't even think that the two should necessarily be conflated. It's just that those kinds of hobbies or practices tend to define a certain aspect of Silicon Valley culture, maybe more so than religion has. Zoë Schiffer: I think that that makes sense. There's a saying that I heard a lot in chatting with people who engage in more of the drug-type pursuits, that these substances will get you in the room, but they won't let you stay. So maybe religion lets you stay. Lauren Goode: Oh, that's kind of interesting. So it's like you do a guided ketamine trip and then you tumble down the block to the church in Dolores Park? Zoë Schiffer: Yes, and? Lauren Goode: Yes, and? Michael Calore: Yes, and? Lauren Goode: ACTS 17 doesn't seem to be pushing that away. What Michelle Stephens has said is that she feels like the industry just has too much emphasis on money and power and wealth, and these are my words, that those in a sense are the more powerful drugs, and the more concerning drugs. And that religion provides a different kind of avenue to success, and that success is that relationship you have with God. Zoë Schiffer: Alex Karp also mentioned something similar. He has said that, "You just need enough money to not have to think about money, and that the other pursuits are more important." Lauren Goode: Ah, right. So I'm assuming that means Alex Karp just has just enough money and he gave the rest of it away? Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Michael Calore: Yeah, probably. Didn't ACTS 17 member, Garry Tan, Tweet about this? Lauren Goode: Yeah, he did last year, and he linked to the article that was written in The San Francisco Standard. He said, "LSD and shrooms won't fill the God-shaped hole in your heart. Guess what might?" I'm guessing the answer is God, right? Do I get an ice cream cone for guessing correctly? Right. Do people still do LSD? Michael Calore: Yes, people still do it. Zoë Schiffer: Yep. Lauren Goode: This is this how uncool I am, Uncanny Valley listeners. Michael Calore: There's nothing cool about drugs, Lauren. Lauren Goode: Okay. That's right, we were raised in the D.A.R.E. era. Michael Calore: Let's take another break and we'll come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. We talked earlier about the good quest versus the bad quest. It sounds like a sitcom, but it's central to the philosophy of how the Christians that we're talking about in Silicon Valley approach the work that they do. What is a good quest? Lauren Goode: Yeah, and this borrows from gaming culture too. When I think about a good quest, I think about playing Legends of Zelda or something. Michael Calore: Is it like a side quest is a bad quest? Lauren Goode: Yeah, right, exactly. You can get sidetracked by a side quest, I think is the idea. But Trae Stephens had written an article, along with an entrepreneur named Markie Wagner. It was published in 2022, and it created this framework for thinking about what you do for a living and whether or not it falls, and where it falls on the matrix. Is it a good quest? Is it a bad quest? Is it something that feels good but is really easy to do and isn't solving a big problem? Is it something that's hard but feels bad? Or is it something's hard to do but feels good because you're fixing big problems? And the way that Trae has described it, and also some of the peers in his network who we've talked about on this show, is that if you're just making another photo app, you're a brilliant engineer, but you're using your mind space and your talents to build a photo app, it's probably not a good quest. For whatever reason, he also took aim a few times at McKinsey Consultants during the event I went to. He just said, "They just sort of show up on your college campus and they pick some of the best and brightest minds and say, 'Go be a management consultant.'" And he considers that not to be a good quest. So Trae said during the ACTS 17 talk that I went to, "I'm literally an arms dealer." And when he said that, the crowd sort of laughed, and I think people were surprised by how candid he was about that, but that's what his company makes. They make weapons. And he said, "It's an unusual calling. It's not a calling for everyone, but it is my calling." And so he was sort of applying the language or the vernacular of a vocation to what he does for a living, and then sort of putting that on the good quest part of the matrix, because it's a hard thing to do and he's solving a hard problem. But he is also mentioned things like manufacturing and advances in medicine, and that there are other things that you can use your talents for that are considered good quests. Michael Calore: Right. If we boil down the idea of a good quest to something that is good for humanity and something that promotes Christian values, I think it's difficult for a lot of people to square the fact that you're doing good in the world with the fact that you're building systems of killing people. Right? Zoë Schiffer: But I think that's why the nationalism part is so important to this, because they're not saying, "We should be doing good for humanity." It seems like a lot of these people are saying, "We should be doing good for the United States of America." Lauren Goode: Right. My understanding, based on reading Alex Carp's very long essay in The Atlantic, is that he really believes we should be building up America as a technological republic. And I think that's what you're saying, Zoe. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. Which again, to Mike's point, it might seem like these things aren't in conflict unless you have that nationalistic angle woven in. Lauren Goode: It's interesting, because when you think about the teachings of the Bible, you think about helping those less fortunate than you, helping the poor, welcoming people in, being of service. So you don't necessarily think about weapons. It may seem like it's incongruous with being of service. And I think that that is a very valid point to raise. My understanding of it, which is not a justification or an explanation for it, is in listening to Trae Steven's talk at the Act 17 event, it seemed like his interpretation of building God's kingdom on Earth was pretty literal. It was, "What has God asked us to do? Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. We will build the kingdom." And that means literally building. It makes me think of the Silicon Valley ethos around, "It's time to build. Build, build, build. Make stuff." Michael Calore: Yeah. And for a lot of people who are not religious, what is central to that ethos is that, "We're doing good in the world." And maybe for a Christian with that ethos, it's centered around, "We're doing God's will by building these things, by making this our society." So, in other words, you can justify a lot of things by saying, "Well, it's okay because we have God on our side," to paraphrase Bob Dylan. That sounds like a slippery slope to me. Lauren Goode: I think you are absolutely right. And Trae Stephens himself said, "I think people can convince themselves that anything is a good quest." He was referring to someone who came up to him and was pitching an NFT marketplace. That, to him, was not a good quest. But yeah, I think that's the thing. You can convince yourself that what you're doing is good, even if you're harming people in some way. And just to pull it back even further, what is one of the things we've heard from Silicon Valley entrepreneurs for decades now? What are they going to do with the thing they're building? They're going to, what, change the world? Michael Calore: Change the world. Lauren Goode: Right. And they have, they continue to. It's not always in a good way, but who makes the moral judgment of what's good? Michael Calore: Justice has to play into it. People can feel like if they're delivering justice in the world, then that's a good thing. And maybe that's why weapons systems feel like a good quest, because it's like, "Well, there's good guys and there's bad guys, and it's pretty cut and dry. And if we can help eradicate the bad guys, then that's a good quest." So that, in a sense, is making the world a better place for people of that mindset. But then again, who is to decide who is the good guy, who is the bad guy? Also, I will just point out at this moment that I think Jesus Christ taught us that the best way to solve conflict is through nonviolent means. So, if Jesus was a pacifist, how would he feel about all of this? I don't know. I'm not Jesus. Lauren Goode: Sounds like you're ready to go back to church, Mike. Michael Calore: Maybe. I have a lot of questions. Maybe that's what church is all about. It's about answering these questions. Lauren Goode: Zoe, how does this stand out to you when you consider this in the context of your faith? Zoë Schiffer: I think it's really interesting. I don't know how. I'm still thinking through the Alex Karp arguments on all of this, but I think just from a basic standpoint, that having religion as one component of a larger kind of life can be really beneficial for people. And I think there is a problem with a lot of people feeling like their lives are meaningless, and so to the extent that this can help imbue their lives with meaning. Or prompt them to stop doing a job that feels soul-sucking and find something that is more of a good quest, something that's more meaningful, I think that's great. All of these things can be used in negative or positive ways, although that's clearly a judgment call, but I think there's potential for good. Lauren Goode: It'll be interesting to see whether or not this is something that really takes root in Silicon Valley, aside from hearing directly from pastors or people in the community, "Oh, it seems like there's growing interest, attendance is rising." Those are all certainly strong signs. But Silicon Valley has been going through this big shift over the past few years, politically, ideologically, artificially, if you want to throw artificial intelligence into that too. And I'm just so curious to see where religion dovetails with that. Michael Calore: Yeah. Yeah, and building God's kingdom, what that looks like- Lauren Goode: What that looks like. Michael Calore: ... for here. Lauren Goode: Is that AI? I mean, really. Michael Calore: Is our next God AI? Lauren Goode: I don't think she is. Zoë Schiffer: I see what you did there. I liked it. Lauren Goode: Thank you. Michael Calore: Thanks for listening to Uncanny Valley. If you like what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with us about any questions, comments, show suggestions, or suggestions for which churches we should attend, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Today's show is produced by Kyana Moghadam, Amar Lal at Macrosound mixed this episode. Paige Oamek fact checked this episode. Jordan Bell is our Executive Producer, Katie Drummond is WIRED's Global Editorial Director, and Chris Bannon is the Head of Global Audio.
WIRED
20-03-2025
- Entertainment
- WIRED
Who's Elon Musk's Biggest Fan? His Mom
Photo-Illustration: WIRED Staff; Photograph:If you buy something using links in our stories, we may earn a commission. This helps support our journalism. Learn more. Please also consider subscribing to WIRED She sits in on his business meetings, defends him on X, and travels to give talks about how she raised him, the richest man in the world—but who is Elon Musk's mother? Today on the show, we learn all about the model, influencer, and author, Maye Musk, while dissecting her most recent travels to China and her possible influence on foreign politics. You can follow Michael Calore on Bluesky at @snackfight, Lauren Goode on Bluesky at @laurengoode, and Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Michael Calore: Hey, Zoë, what does your mom call you? Zoë Schiffer: I feel like I'll erode a lot of my credibility if I tell you, so I'm just going to say that a lot of people call me Zoe for short. Michael Calore: Okay. Zoë Schiffer: Which is what my name looks like. Michael Calore: If you don't have the umlaut over the E, it just looks like Zoe? Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, because it doesn't have the Y so people always get confused. I'm like, "Oh, no, my parents call me Zoe. Don't worry about it." Lauren Goode: Oh. Right, right. Like Zooey Deschanel, she has the Y, right? Yeah, okay. Michael Calore: But she's Zooey. Lauren Goode: I never thought about that before. Michael Calore: Isn't she? Isn't she Zooey? Lauren Goode: No, she's Zooey. Zoë Schiffer: Like Franny and Zooey is spelled Zooey but it's Zooey, Franny and Zooey. Anyway, Mike, what do your parents, what did they call you when you were little? Lauren Goode: She's deflecting really hard. She doesn't want to tell us the real nickname. Zoë Schiffer: I can't. I just feel like I already have too much imposter syndrome. Michael Calore: For a very long time, my mother referred to me by my full name, Michael, and so did my father. Lauren Goode: What's your middle name? Michael Calore: Seth. Lauren Goode: Did they call you Michael Seth? Michael Calore: On very, very rare occasions. Zoë Schiffer: Seth really could be your first name, too. I feel like that feels like that almost fits. Lauren Goode: Oh, yeah. You're a Seth. Michael Calore: Do I present as Seth? Zoë Schiffer: A little bit. Seth rising, if you will. Michael Calore: Okay. Lauren Goode: Yeah. Seth goes to a lot of live music shows. Yeah. Michael Calore: Seth's a guy, you know? What about you, Lauren? Lauren Goode: My name is Lauren Goode. Michael Calore: Yes. Lauren Goode: I have a hard time pronouncing my name. You know this from years of doing podcasts with me. Whenever it comes to that moment of I'm Lauren Goode. Michael Calore: Yeah. Lauren Goode: Sometimes when I got to order coffee, they ask for my name, they end up writing it M because I struggle to say the L. I feel like I should just change my name. Michael Calore: What do you think your psyche is telling you? Lauren Goode: When I was a kid, sometimes my mom called me Wren. Zoë Schiffer: Oh. Lauren Goode: I feel like I should be a Wren. Zoë Schiffer: I really like that. I think that's a sweet name. Michael Calore: Wren. Zoë Schiffer: I feel if were at the Joe Rogan Podcast, which we're all devout listeners of, we would be asking Grok right now what your name should be, and then you would be called that for the rest of time. Lauren Goode: Or just be Wren. But the thing with Wren Goode is it's two really hard single-syllable words. Michael Calore: That's true. Zoë Schiffer: What's your middle name? Lauren Goode: Margaret. Michael Calore: It's like a spondee, though, Wren Goode. Lauren Goode: Wren Goode, it is kind of cool. Wren Margaret. Maybe I should just be Wren Margaret. Now if anyone really wants to dox me. Would you like my social security number? They're all going to be public soon anyway. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. Let's talk through your birthday. Lauren Goode: Right. Some 19-year-old currently has my social security number, so great. Michael Calore: Okay. Well, here is a more topical question. What do you think Elon Musk's mom calls him? Zoë Schiffer: Little E. Lauren Goode: Oh. I don't know. Maybe? Zoë Schiffer: He did actually take over the @E handle shortly before he bought Twitter. A little scoop for you. I don't know what nickname she calls him, but I do think it's funny that she's been like, "It's insulting to call him a billionaire. He is the genius of the world and should be recognized as such." Michael Calore: That's some strong mom energy. This is WIRED's Uncanny Valley, a show about the people, power, and influence of Silicon Valley. Today we're talking about Maye Musk. She's a model, influencer, and an author of the memoir A Woman Makes a Plan. She's been traveling to some notable places this year to promote her work and to rep her son, Elon Musk. Who is Maye Musk? What do you need to know about her? And how much influence does she currently have over US politics? I am Michael Seth Calore, director of consumer tech and culture here at WIRED. Lauren Goode: I'm Wren Goode, senior writer at WIRED. Oh, that was easy. Michael Calore: Yeah. Zoë Schiffer: I'm Zoë Schiffer, WIRED's director of business and industry. Michael Calore: With an umlaut. Zoë Schiffer: With an umlaut. I almost said Zoe and I was like it's too many bits for us. Michael Calore: Let's get started with the big question. Who is Maye Musk? Lauren Goode: Maye is an entrepreneur, and a model, and a dietician, and an author in her own right. I think she's probably best well-known for being a model. She's been a model from a young age and continues to model into her late 70s. She's also the author of a book called A Woman Makes a Plan. This came out in 2019, but it continues to be popular particularly because it's popular in China, where it was translated into Chinese the year after it came out. She was born in Canada. She was raised mostly in South Africa, which is where she started modeling. She was 15 then, and she was a finalist in the Miss South Africa contest. Michael Calore: Hey, mazel tov. Lauren Goode: Yeah. This is also where she got married, she had kids, and then divorced. She's got three kids. In addition to Elon, there's Kimbal, who I think a lot of people have also heard of, and Tosca. It sounds like a cookie, doesn't it? I'd love some Tosca with my tea. Zoë Schiffer: She would never have a cookie. Her mom talks constantly about no cookies. Michael Calore: Yeah. Lauren Goode: Wow. Fascinating. She ended up moving to California in 1996, when her two sons started the software company that gave Elon his start. It was called Zip2. Now she bounces around the world. She's a citizen of the world, this is partly because of Elon and partly it's because it's where her work takes her. One note that's interesting about her modeling career is that she's become an advocate or representation for people of all ages and sizes. The fact that she's an older woman and still has these makeup and beauty product endorsements says a lot about her durability as an entrepreneur and as a model. In 2022, she was also the oldest woman to appear on the cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition. Zoë Schiffer: It was a good cover. Lauren Goode: Which I think then, she was later maybe surpassed by Martha Stewart. Michael Calore: Oh, really? Zoë Schiffer: Interesting. Lauren Goode: Martha Stewart was 81- Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh. Lauren Goode: ... when she graced the cover of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue. Zoë Schiffer: The term dietician always gives me pause. What is ... Lauren Goode: That's a really good question about her dietician career, Zoë. She studied nutrition, or she calls it dietetics, from a young age. But it was after she got divorced, she was around 31, that's when she had to build up her own practice. She has said that she was, at one point, seeing up to 25 patients or clients a day while modeling. Zoë, would you call this extremely hardcore? Zoë Schiffer: I would say that's extremely hardcore. Lauren Goode: These days, she's doing a lot of speaking engagements that are often geared towards women. Women's empowerment, beauty, health. And also, parenting, because we're going to keep coming back to this, she has a very famous son. Michael Calore: Yes, she does. We all know about Elon's influence and how important he is in our world, and now in the larger world of the United States government and the world stage. But what is Maye's own personal influence? How does she move the needle around the world? Zoë Schiffer: She has a really big social presence. I think she's got about 1.5 million followers on Instagram, where she posts a lot about her family. I think one recent video, the voiceover was like, "As the mother of three billionaires." I was like, okay. But she also has 1.4 million followers on Twitter. And as Lauren mentioned, she's got her book, she's a model. She's an influencer in China, which we can get into later. Her profile has grown alongside Elon's. Michael Calore: Right. She's been in the news lately for a lot of reasons and we'll get into those later, as you mentioned. One of the most obvious is that she is Elon Musk's mother and Elon Musk has been in the news, so she has also been in the news, too. Let's talk about the two of them and what their relationship is like. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. By all accounts, Lauren, I'm curious to get your take, but it seems like they have a pretty tight relationship. Elon famously is estranged from his father, Maye's ex-husband. When I was reporting my book about Elon Musk's acquisition of Twitter, I would talk to executives who would say, "Yeah, we sat down for this very high level meeting, and inexplicably Elon had brought his mom along." Everyone was like, "What is she doing here?" She would pipe in and give her suggestions. People found it to be pretty odd, according to the conversations that I had with them. She also is known for going head-to-head with reporters and other people online who are critical of her son. One recent example was that CNN did a panel after Elon Musk appeared at Trump's inauguration in January. Then implied that he had done a Nazi-like salute. Maye was out there, suggesting that he'd simply sue CNN for that coverage. Lauren Goode: Yeah. There was this moment back in 2022 when it was shortly after Elon had announced the Twitter acquisition. His tweets started getting a little bit bizarre. Because a lot of these business negotiations here happening out in public. As a result, people were responding to his tweets. One of his crusades was against spambots. Maye took it upon herself to start calling people out on Twitter who she identified to be spambots or in other ways disingenuous. She was using the hashtag #nasty. She would put nasty, nasty. At one point she quote-tweeted someone and she said, "Is this a bot or a troll? 16 followers, nearly 2000 likes, makes you think. #nastynasty." She waged this one-woman campaign to be like, "Hey, one, I'm highlighting spam on the platform, which is something that my son is currently investigating. Two, stop picking on Elon." Michael Calore: Yeah. Zoë Schiffer: I find this so relatable. She's just being such a mom. But the, "No matter how rich and influential my son is, I'm still going to be out there defending him to critics on Twitter, including to accounts that might be bots and have 16 followers," is so funny. I'm like, "Yeah. Me, too, girl." Michael Calore: I do think it's kind of sweet, the way that they pay attention to each other a lot in public. They show up to events together. She's a model, she's a very glamorous dresser. She always appears very well put together. And she dresses up, I would say better than he does. Zoë Schiffer: Not hard. Michael Calore: Absolutely no shade at all. I'm wearing a camo hat right now and I have an unbuttoned flannel over a branded T-shirt. But she does, she dresses up very well. They appear together at events. At galas, at dinners, and things like that, in formal wear. Lauren Goode: Right. Michael Calore: I think it's kind of sweet. Zoë Schiffer: Totally. Lauren Goode: This is actually another great anecdote from Issacson's book, which is that they went to the Met Gala. Zoë Schiffer: Right. Lauren Goode: Which is, of course, run by our boss here at Conde Nast, Anna Wintour. All of us, of course, have been invited to the Met Gala, we just haven't been able to make it yet. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, a conflict. Lauren Goode: Yes. Scheduling conflicts. Elon and Maye were invited. Apparently he got out of a meeting at about 9:00 PM, but they had to show up at the Met Gala. Zoë Schiffer: Wow. Well, this is the sweet segment of the show. I feel like we have to talk about some of the potential issues with Maye Musk's profile around the world. But let it be said that we had a whole segment where we talked about how charming it is that they love each other apparently. Michael Calore: Yes. Yeah. On that note, let's all hold onto those feelings while we take a break, and we'll come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. Maye Musk has been traveling all over the world. Most notably, she's been going to places like China and the United Arab Emirates. Why is she going to these places? Lauren Goode: Well, Maye Musk is in the business of being Maye Musk. She's known as a silver-haired influencer in China. In China in particular, she's got a lot of product endorsement ties. Makeup, massagers, clothing. She does a lot of speaking engagements. I think in order to really under her presence there, we should take a look at this ad that ran sometime in 2024. She's tied to a brand called Babycare. [Archival audio]: (Singing) I look up and think about the new. Lauren Goode: The rest of the ad is in Mandarin, but there are English subtitles. [Archival audio]: (Ad playing in Mandarin) Lauren Goode: She's asking, "How do you raise successful kids?" It's Maye, just cruising through the streets, looking as elegant as ever. With beautiful scenery of children playing in the street and everything. Zoë Schiffer: Wow. Lauren Goode: There's a little girl dancing. It's very cute. Zoë Schiffer: Wait, I love this ad. Michael Calore: The messaging here is that you shouldn't tell kids to be quiet, and sit down and do what they're told. You should tell them to be loud. You should tell them to get up and run. You should tell them to disobey authority. To be themselves. Zoë Schiffer: Let kids grow up free. Lauren Goode: Free-range kids. Zoë Schiffer: Don't obey the rules. [Archival audio]: (Ad playing in Mandarin) Lauren Goode: What's interesting about this too, is that in Issacson's biography of Musk, he writes about how Maye herself grew up where her parents took a lot of risks. They are free-range children. It is in their family DNA in a sense, to have these risk-taking, courageous kids. Zoë Schiffer: Not to make this all about my kids always, but I tend to raise very free kids, let them do what they want within the bounds of reason. The result is that my three-year-old hasn't washed her hair in four weeks. I don't know if I'm benefiting in the way that Maye Musk seems to believe is possible. Michael Calore: If you're watching Chinese television, you'll see this ad. You'll have very warm and affection feelings toward Maye Musk and her famous children. Joking aside, she is an influential person in China. Why does that influence concern some? Zoë Schiffer: We're just at a very interesting moment with diplomatic relations with China. We're in a Cold War, some have called it, related to AI and it raises a number of concerns. For example, foreign governments could conceivably use Maye Musk as a way to try to get close to Elon, and thereby Trump, almost to exert control on the current administration. That's just something to pay attention to. There's fears that her phone could be hacked while she is there. Michael Calore: Oh. Zoë Schiffer: She was riding on Air Force One recently. While these are purely theoretical, the stakes are pretty high. There's worry that foreign governments could try and curry favor with her by asking her to model or be brand ambassadors for various companies. There's, again, no evidence that this has happened with her current relationships with brands overseas, but something to pay attention to. They could retaliate if the US government does something they don't like, by pulling her books of shelves or canceling contracts. Then there's this more far-fetched, but very problematic issue, which is in a worse case scenario where China was retaliating against the US for something that the US or Trump did, if Maye Musk was in China during that time, could they physically hold her there? China is known for going tit-for-tat. If a foreign government does something that China doesn't like, China will retaliate in kind. We have Marco Rubio in the administration. He is a serious China hawk. I think the fear is that the Trump Administration would do something that China doesn't like and that Maye Musk could be in the middle of this national security fiasco. Lauren Goode: Right. It's not clear how much money she's actually making from this incredible influence that she has in China. Nor does anyone think that she's getting money from the Chinese government directly, or anything like that. Zoë Schiffer: No. Lauren Goode: We know that she's been to China at least four times in late 2024, the New York Times did report that. She's promoting her makeup products. Presumably, she's still promoting her book or using that as leverage for her brand, and that sort of thing. It's more about that influence. In particular, when you think about Elon's business. China is a huge market for Tesla vehicles. Tesla's largest production factor is in Shanghai. Tesla also built a large battery factory last month in Shanghai. Last year, Tesla's China sales hit a record high. Nearly 37% of its cars were delivered to customers in China. That's more than 657,000 Tesla vehicles. Elon has very vested interest in the Chinese market, and I think people are looking at some of his mother's activities there, and looking at the importance of his business there, and just wondering if there's a line to be drawn between the two of them. When Maye was in China last fall, she wrote on X, "China is so advanced in roads, tunnels, buildings, infrastructure, and ports. I'm always impressed when I visit." Sure, you could be someone on vacation who's just, "Wow! I'm marveling at this new place that I'm in," right? Michael Calore: Weird flex, but okay. Lauren Goode: There also could be a lot of subtext there. Michael Calore: Yeah. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. I think, Lauren, your point brings up the larger issue, which is just we don't know, but there are possibilities of undue influence. I think the fact that it's not known and there's not a lot of controls in place. Normally, if someone who is close to an advisor of the president was traveling overseas, there would have been checks on their background, there would be investigations. It doesn't appear that those things have actually happened. There was a lot of security protocols that weren't followed. I think there's just, again, the possibility that something more nefarious could happen in the future. Michael Calore: Elon Musk has been able to sidestep a lot of the requirements for security clearance, simply because he's always taken on an advisory role in the US government, or as a contractor for the federal government. We would assume that his mother is not even anywhere on that map as well. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. Michael Calore: As far as getting a lot of scrutiny from security clearance people. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. We don't have any evidence that she's been through that process. Judging by how the DOGE employees went about entering government, which in many cases, they were up and working in government systems before having received security clearances, yeah, I think there's reason to be suspect that she was put under that microscope for that process. Michael Calore: When countries invite celebrities, people who have some sort of influence on the world stage, to come visit their country and hang out, and they wine them and dine them, there is some soft diplomacy happening. "We are going to invite you here, you're going to have a great time. You're going to go back home, you're going to tell everybody about how great of a time you had, how welcoming the people were. Wouldn't it be great if we were a little bit nicer to them?" We can see that being implied in a lot of the places that she's traveling, like China. She went to Kazakhstan recently to promote her book. Maye Musk has also gone to the UAE to speak and to make appearances there. You can see, if you're inviting a Maye Musk into your world, there are implications about wanting to reach out, wanting to have a better relationship with the United States, right? Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, for sure. She's not an ambassador in the official sense, but she's playing an influential role nonetheless in the United States' relationship with these foreign governments, just by simply going there and posting about it on social media. Lauren Goode: Totally. Yeah. In January, just before the inauguration, she did go to Dubai and she gave a talk. It was called How I Raised Three Amazing Children, Including the Richest Man in the World. Michael Calore: Oh. Lauren Goode: What an incredible flex. Michael Calore: Wow. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. Michael Calore: I was just going to say, I would have loved to have seen that talk. Zoë Schiffer: Unironic same. Michael Calore: Can we tell where Maye Musk is just being a supportive mom and spreading the gospel of Elon, and can we tell where she might be doing a little bit more than that? Lauren Goode: I tend to see Maye as a little bit of a Kris Jenner. Michael Calore: Ah. Lauren Goode: Her children are very famous, and she's clearly very supportive of their careers, and will defend them to the ends of the Earth. But also, she's an operator to the point where she has become her own really powerful and influential brand. There are probably a lot of ties behind the scenes that we don't have full access to. I think what everyone's going to be watching really closely is to see how those ties with China develop or evolve, and if there's any possibility that they could be exploited. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. I would just add to that, that as her influence has grown, she's using that influence to try and preserve Elon's reputation, to try and promote his business. Again, a Kris Jenner profile. She's not just doing that as a mom, she's also doing that as someone who's very invested in his tangible success it seems like. Michael Calore: Well, somebody's got to look out for him. Zoë Schiffer: So true. Michael Calore: Somebody really needs to step up and make sure that he remains a successful person. Zoë Schiffer: Right. Lauren Goode: I think that if Maye Musk ever shows up in the Oval Office and starts answering questions from reporters, then we'll have reached a new tipping point. Michael Calore: Do you think she'd sit on his shoulders? Zoë Schiffer: That would be really difficult. She looks really tall. Michael Calore: All right. Well, let's take another break and we'll come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. It's been a while since we have done an Overheard in Silicon Valley, so we're going to play that game this week. We're going to dish some buzz, and I only want good answers. Who wants to go first? Zoë, Lauren? Zoë Schiffer: Wait. I feel like you might have the best tea. You were at South by Southwest. Lauren Goode: Yeah. Zoë Schiffer: You must have overheard the craziest things. Michael Calore: Well, it's not necessarily a crazy overheard, but there were Waymos at South by Southwest this week. Zoë Schiffer: Wait. Is Waymo running there? Michael Calore: It is now, through the Uber app. Zoë Schiffer: Oh. Michael Calore: They partnered with Uber. Lauren Goode: Interesting. Michael Calore: When you're at South by Southwest for specific parts of Austin, you can request a Waymo through the Uber app. I did not do this because I needed to get where I was going in a quick manner and the wait time for a Waymo was around 20, 25 minutes. Zoë Schiffer: Oh, wow. Michael Calore: I just chose regular Ubers while I was there. But the company was offering rides, regularly priced rides, just like the Waymos are priced in other places where they operate through the Uber app. It was kind of interesting, kind of weird. I quizzed people about them all week when I was there, and people loved it. There were people obviously from all over the world there. Everybody was, "Oh, it was so easy and it was so nice. I was scared and I didn't know what to do, and the experience was really helpful. They hold your hands," and all this. Then the other question that I would ask people from Austin is if they were aware that the Tesla Robotaxi service is supposed to be launching in Austin in June. Because last year, Elon Musk showed off the new Tesla Robotaxi. He said that, as part of this car's release, they're going to be launching a robotaxi service for Tesla cars. Zoë Schiffer: Full self-driving, like Waymo-esque? Michael Calore: Yes. Not only will you be able to order a robotaxi to show up, a Tesla-branded robotaxi to show up, but you'll be able to, if you're a Tesla owner, put your Tesla into a pool so that your Tesla can drive around and offer people robotaxi rides while you're at the office, or sleeping, or whatever. Lauren Goode: Passive income. Michael Calore: Right. He has said multiple times that this is going to be launching in Austin, Texas in June. We're all like, "Okay." I was asking people in Austin, "Have you heard of this?" And nobody had heard of it. Lauren Goode: Huh. Zoë Schiffer: Well, he famously over-promises on the delivery date of certain things. Michael Calore: Yes. Zoë Schiffer: I feel like that's fair to say. Michael Calore: Yes. I think it will be a small miracle if there is one robotaxi ride in Austin at the very, very end of June this year. Lauren Goode: Wait. Can I share an overheard that is related to your experience at South by Southwest, Mike? Michael Calore: Yes. Lauren Goode: Someone who we work with sent me a video and said, "Check out Mike." It was you getting into a baby blue Cybertruck. Michael Calore: Yes. Lauren Goode: What was happening here? Michael Calore: We called a Lyft, and the Lyft that showed up was a Cybertruck. When it rolled up, the guy had a wrapper on it, it was baby blue. Zoë Schiffer: Wow. That is a shocking turn of events. Lauren Goode: You didn't know a Cybertruck was showing up? Michael Calore: No. No, we did not know. Lauren Goode: Oh my God, incredible. Michael Calore: Yeah, it was shocking. It was very shocking. I was like, "Well, we're getting in it," so we got in it. We asked him about it. He was a little chatty and he told us why he bought it. He drove it out from San Diego to Austin. I asked him if anybody had vandalized his car or defaced it and he said, "Yes, somebody drew a swastika on it and wrote Nazi." Then he wiped it off because of his baby blue wrap makes it so that you can just wipe off vandalism. Zoë Schiffer: Wow. Lauren Goode: Did that change the way he was feeling about his Cybertruck? Michael Calore: I don't think so. I think he's still proud of it and still likes it. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, I feel like you double-down if you're a Cybertruck owner. We had a recent incident earlier this week in Ventura, where a Cybertruck, I think the owner was attempting to launch a jet ski and the Cybertruck ended up in the water. Michael Calore: Oh, no. Zoë Schiffer: It was being towed out of the ocean. Lauren Goode: Oh, no! Michael Calore: Oh, no. Zoë Schiffer: In footage that was circulating on social media. Lauren Goode: When you say that, Zoë, about the Tesla being in the water and being towed out, I'm thinking of those duck boats in the Boston Harbor. Do you know what I'm talking about, Mike? Michael Calore: Did it float? Lauren Goode: Did it? Zoë Schiffer: It did not float. But we did just get a really old children's book about the duck boats in Boston. Lauren Goode: Oh. Zoë Schiffer: Okay, Lauren, what's your overheard? Lauren Goode: Well, I was going to talk about vibe coding in Silicon Valley, but now I feel like I want to keep consistent with your theme. Michael Calore: Oh, yes. Lauren Goode: Which is there's this little cottage industry popping up on Etsy, I noticed. If you type in just Rivian sticker, there are more than 1000 results that come up. It's basically the sticker for people who have a Tesla but wish they had a Rivian right now. Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh. Michael Calore: Oh, boy. Lauren Goode: A couple episodes ago, we talked about all of Elon's babies. Now we're talking about the woman who had Elon as a baby. We talked about how the status symbol is now having three kids and a Rivian. Now we're talking about Rivians again. Honestly, I think we're just living in a simulation. Zoë Schiffer: Okay, Elon. Lauren Goode: Right? I would be happy to talk to more people about the simulation. Some of the stickers say, "Only driving this until I get my Rivian. I identify as a Rivian. The Anti-Elon Tesla Club," that's a car magnet. "This Tesla does not endorse Musk." There's a, "Love the car, not the CEO." Yeah. If you're looking for a sticker that's pro-Rivian or anti-Tesla, there are a lot of options out there right now. Zoë Schiffer: Etsy has your back. Michael Calore: All right. That was some good overheard. Thank you. I feel so happy that we did that. I feel like a weight has been lifted off of my shoulders. Thanks for listening to another episode of Uncanny Valley. If you liked what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with us with any questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Today's show was produced by Kyana Moghadam. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Matt Giles fact-checked this episode. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Katie Drummond is WIRED's global editorial director. Chris Bannon is the head of global audio.
WIRED
20-03-2025
- Business
- WIRED
DOGE Is Doing the Opposite of Government Auditing
Photo-Illustration:If you buy something using links in our stories, we may earn a commission. This helps support our journalism. Learn more. Please also consider subscribing to WIRED WIRED's Vittoria Elliot joins Global Editorial Director Katie Drummond to discuss what real government auditors think of DOGE's work, and what happened during DOGE's first six weeks. 'It's a Heist': Real Federal Auditors Are Horrified by DOGE by Vittoria Elliott Inside Elon Musk's 'Digital Coup' by Makena Kelly, David Gilbert, Vittoria Elliott, Kate Knibbs, Dhruv Mehrotra, Dell Cameron, Tim Marchman, Leah Feiger, and Zoë Schiffer Donald Trump Held Another Million-Dollar 'Candlelight' Dinner—With Elon Musk in Tow by Leah Feiger and Zoë Schiffer You can follow Katie Drummond on Bluesky at @katie-drummond and Vittoria Elliott on Bluesky at @telliotter. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Katie Drummond: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley . I'm WIRED's Global Editorial Director, Katie Drummond. Today on the show, the difference between DOGE and official federal auditors. I'm joined today by WIRED's Vittoria Elliott, welcome to Uncanny Valley , Tori. Vittoria Elliott: Thank you for having me. Katie Drummond: Happy that you're here. Now, Tori, you published a story today on WIRED about federal auditors, what they do, what makes their work fundamentally different to what DOGE is doing. And to report this story, you actually spoke to a few federal auditors. So, what does a federal auditor actually do? Because these are real jobs, prior to DOGE infiltrating federal agencies, audits were actually already happening. So, walk us through sort of what that job entails on a daily basis. Vittoria Elliott: So, I think maybe a lot of people might have forgotten about this because everything has been moving so quickly, but one of the first moves of the new Trump Administration was to fire a bunch of inspector generals, and those are people who actually, their offices actually do these kinds of investigations. So a lot of the audits, for instance, that we think about with government programs, go through the offices of IGs. They have stuff reported to them, and then they get to look into it. So, if you're in a federal agency and you're like, this seems to be wrong, you can report that to your agency's IG, and they can go in and audit that. Audits can also be ordered by Congress if they think there's some kind of malfeasance or problems. So for instance, there was a big audit of hurricane aid during Hurricane Maria, because there was a lot of stuff that was lost. Auditors spent, I think about 18 months digging into those things. So, there are actually ways to look at particular programs in agencies and assess the spending and assess whether or not these programs are actually doing what they're meant to be doing. We have a whole system for that. And a lot of times that gets reported to Congress depending on the sensitivity of it. So, maybe if they're auditing something where we're looking at stuff that might involve classified or secret information that might not be public, but a lot of times these audits are actually also made public to Congress, you can go find them. Katie Drummond: Right, available to the public, as opposed to DOGE, despite the claims that Musk and even President Trump have made, that this is a maximally transparent group of people doing this work. We don't actually know that much about what they're doing, what they're finding, and the changes that they're making, short of journalists like you and so many of your WIRED colleagues and other news organizations obtaining that information and publishing it. Now, I want to back up a little bit because at the heart of all of this is this notion of fraud, of waste, of financial abuse. It's something that Elon Musk has repeatedly claimed is widespread, pervasive across government agencies that there is fraudulent spending, there is excessive waste happening. There is abuse of financial power, financial authority on the part of these agencies. Now, from what you've reported over the last several months and in your role, how valid is that claim to begin with? Vittoria Elliott: There was a report from the government accountability office that covered the years 2018 to 2022, and that found that there's actually over $200 billion of waste, fraud, or abuse that happens. So it's like, it's not this made up thing, but in the context of a $7 trillion federal budget, that is not what's breaking the bank. I don't think anyone, Democrat or Republican, DOGE fan or not, would argue that, hey, that's a problem that we need to solve. That's a very valuable thing. But one of the auditors that I spoke to basically said DOGE could go look at the current recommendations from the IGs. They could go look at the current outstanding investigations. They could pick up that work if they are really dedicated to this because there actually are systems, and there actually are reports about this. But from what the auditors I spoke to said, they said that doesn't really seem to be what DOGE is doing. And one of the other things they said was a lot of auditors would probably be really happy to help them, to offer advice. They'd be happy to work with them, they'd be happy to bring young talent into their teams to sort of make the auditing system more robust. But DOGE is really kind of siloed, it doesn't seem like they're really interested in that. Katie Drummond: Right. Now, speaking of DOGE and the auditors that you spoke to for this story, they certainly didn't have kind words to say about how DOGE is going about its work. Tell us a little bit more about their impressions of DOGE and their commentary on sort of what is happening under the auspices of this idea that Musk and DOGE are essentially auditing the federal government. What do the actual auditors think about that? Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, so to give some context, first off, a regular audit, which involves like five different steps, so there are five steps to an audit. One is where you plan it, you sit down, you say, "This is what we're looking at, this is the kind of information we're going to need to go after." You sort of map out who the stakeholders are, who you're going to have to interview, because a lot of times they're going into programs or systems that maybe they don't fully understand. So, it's almost a little ethnographic. You got to go in, you got to interview people, you got to be like, "What is your job? What does this connect to? What does this mean inside your system?" You have to do that baseline understanding of getting to know the program or the agency. Then you do the actual field work, which is, you go out, you talk to people. In the case of, for instance, the hurricane stuff, they actually sent auditors, I believe, to Puerto Rico to see what was going on. You go into the systems, you do that kind of human on the ground legwork. Once you've done that, they sort of pull all this information together into a report, they sort of do this analysis. They talk to the agencies, they say like, "Hey, these are the problems we found. You have the opportunity to correct these. These are our recommendations." And then they submit that to the agencies, to Congress, and then they get to follow up. They get to come back and be like, "Hey, we recommended this thing. Did you fix this problem?" There's a level of accountability for trying to fix that thing. So, there are very clear understandings within the government of what the best practice of this is, and all of these people do that. That takes six to 18 months. Katie Drummond: Right, I was about to say, that sounds like a very time-consuming and extensive process to understand these systems, understand a certain part of a certain agency. Right? Remembering the federal government is massive. I mean, it's the largest employer in the country. We're talking about just huge infrastructure to sort of pick at one little piece of it would be a very time-consuming and sort of labor-intensive process if you are really doing your diligence, as you just outlined. Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, and so what the auditors told me is, for instance, a lot of the claims that Musk and DOGE have made about the Social Security Administration, which Musk saying that 150 year olds are receiving social security checks, which our colleague David Gilbert debunked in a really smart piece. Or you know what they're saying about all this waste, fraud, and abuse within the social security system. Both these auditors said to me what that says to them is that they don't actually understand the system well enough to identify where the problems are, it seems, because obviously they're not in contact with DOGE, but they're sort of reverse engineering maybe how they're getting these conclusions, is that they're going in, they don't necessarily understand the systems. They're maybe using some form of script or keyword searching to find particular things to surface. But the reality is that it would be impossible for someone coming in from the outside to audit the entire social security system in two to three weeks. Katie Drummond: Right, which is to be clear, what appears to be happening. Vittoria Elliott: Yeah. And the other thing too, is DOGE is not just "auditing" these systems, like going in and looking at stuff. They're canceling contracts, which also, a lot of these auditors also understand how federal contracting works because so much of the federal government's work actually goes through contracting, working with people in local areas or outsourcing stuff to the private sector. And one of the things that they really talked about as well, which we didn't get into so much in the piece, but I thought was super fascinating, is DOGE is specifically saying that it's saving the American people money, but when you cancel a contract, you're still responsible because there's a legal agreement there for paying out part of it, sometimes it's 10 to 15%. And one of the things they talked about too, is oftentimes when the government buys something, it does it in bulk so they get a discount, because if you're buying like $2 billion worth of stuff from someone, they'll give you 5, 10% off. But when you cancel that contract, you're already paying 10, 15% of what that contract might have had to be anyway to be able to cancel it. And then you're likely going to need that service again in the future, maybe in a smaller amount, but you're going to pay more for it, or you're going to pay more in time or manpower for your own team. A lot of these things that on the surface can look like large amounts of money may actually in the long run, probably not be saving very much money at all. In fact, it might be costing more. Katie Drummond: Right. When you're thinking about paying a kill fee, you're thinking about the time and effort, and to your point, the human resource that would go into renegotiating a contract when you realize, oops, we spent six weeks doing this "audit," turns out we canceled the contract that we really need, and now we're back to the negotiation table with this supplier. And all of a sudden the price is 100% of the cost instead of 90% of the cost. Point well taken. Now, on the subject of audits, were there any specific audits that stand out as examples of this process, this sort of federal auditing process happening successfully and leading to a better outcome? Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, I mean, the reason that I brought up the hurricane one, is because obviously the way that the government has addressed hurricane response, particularly in Puerto Rico because of its status as a territory and not a state, was really, really fraught, right? And that kind of accountability, I mean, government is so slow and grinding and it feels very frustrating to people. And the flip side of it being slow and grinding is that no one's going to cut off your social security overnight. That would also be a slow and grinding process, hopefully. So, one thing that the auditor sort of spoke about, and actually is something that I've talked to some other federal employees who are not featured in this piece about, is their understanding of the government is sort of like the thing that is so frustrating for people is that it is so slow, but part of the reason it's so slow is because there's so many measures in place to make sure that you can't misuse government money. It's a response to previous audits, to previous investigations, to previous issues. And so, part of the reason that it might take months to get a federal contract, part of the reason it might take months to get cleared for something, is because there's all these tiny steps in between to make sure that they can't misappropriate government money. If anything, some of the slow grinding frustration that people express about the government is the response to trying to make sure that there is less ability for waste, fraud, and abuse. Katie Drummond: It is essentially the system working as it should, and presumably the result, as you say, of years and years of these audits, of these inspections, of this diligence, and this accountability, that has led us to the system that we have. Which yes, is slow and grinding, but again, is designed to prevent fraud and to provide services for the American people. Your example about social security is a great one. I mean, it might be frustrating to wait for your social security benefits to kick in, but the worst case scenario is that someone working with DOGE cancels your social security payments in the back end. And all of a sudden, you spend six months or a year struggling to have them reinstated, right? Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, and again, I don't think there's any person who would be like, "Oh, the government's really efficient and does exactly what it's supposed to do when it's supposed to do it." No, you could definitely make an argument for efficiency on the user end, right? But I think even the term government efficiency, are we using efficiency in the way that you and I might understand it like, this is faster and cleaner and better for us as end user? Or are we using efficiency in like the private equity sense, which is like, this is better at funneling money to private industry and specifically to the people at the top of private industry? Because that's another form of using efficiency. Katie Drummond: Well, it sure is. It seems like one that Elon Musk might be familiar with himself. So Tori, Elon Musk has described what DOGE is doing as essentially an audit of government waste, financial abuse across federal agencies. The auditors you spoke to though, didn't exactly see this DOGE effort as an audit. So, if it's not an audit, what is it? Vittoria Elliott: So, I think the hardest thing is that we don't necessarily know. We do know that they're trying to get into these systems and cut spending, cut contracts, so I think that's a big one. But the auditors I spoke to said auditing is sort of seeing what's in there, providing recommendations. But first and foremost, it seems like they're going in, they're making a lot of cuts, and that isn't necessarily what you do in an audit, especially for things that are services that the government may continue to need in the future, that's going to move that work probably to the private sector. And secondly, that there's so much data that the government has, and they both said they couldn't help but think that the real goal was to have access to that kind of data, whether that's for training an LLM to replace people or something else, or whether that's for their own competitive advantage. Katie Drummond: Right. We are going to take a short break. We'll be back with Tori Elliott in a minute. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley . I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's Global editorial director. I'm joined by WIRED's Tori Elliott. Now Tori, I want to spend a little bit of time talking about this incredible feature that WIRED published late last week, and that you shared a byline on, along with several other reporters and editors. Now, the story was a deep dive into the first six weeks of DOGE. The headline on the piece is, Inside Elon Musk's 'Digital Coup,' great headline. You have been so in the weeds on DOGE for a couple of months now. Thank you, and I'm sorry. But what does this bigger story tell us about DOGE that you think is particularly important? Vittoria Elliott: So, one of the biggest things that I think the feature really delivers is it helps sort of put these all together in one big picture to help people understand both the timeline of when all these things happened, which basically started the minute that Trump came into office. But also, helps people see how these different things connect together, the way that the takeover at the Office of Personnel Management, which is the government's HR, and then the takeover of the General Services Administration, which does a lot of its procurement stuff, also deals with its IT systems and property. Sort of like how taking over those agencies via repurposing the US digital service became this hub for everything else that the Trump Administration is doing in the government. And I think when we sort of lay it out in that way, you can see greater patterns, which is the focus on cutting employees, the focus on taking over IT systems, and very specifically the focus really on getting into contracting and payment systems. And in the case of USAID, the worst case scenario of what can happen, which is once someone is in your systems, they can shut your agency down. Katie Drummond: Which is exactly what happened with that one. Now, this story to me is really, if you're going to read one story about DOGE, if you can't keep up with the fire hose, this is the story to read. It really sort of walks audiences and walks readers through in this very step-by-step narrative, exactly what the last six weeks have looked like from within the administration. Now, let's take listeners inside the machine a little bit, how stories like this come to be. Now, I will caveat by telling everybody that there's a lot we can't share about our reporting, there's a lot that Tori can't say, but we do share in the piece that you and your colleagues talked to more than 150 people for this story. 150 people. I got a lot of text messages from friends after the story came out being like, "150 people, Katie? What do you have these poor reporters doing all day?" But you guys have been working really, really hard on this reporting. So, tell us about the last few weeks of your life as you have been working to put this feature together. What does that look like, reporting this day in and day out? Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, it feels like a fire hose in my signal inbox. The thing that I notice so much is that a lot of the federal workers that I spoke to, they really just want to be heard. These are people who don't have big public profiles. When you're a federal worker, you can't go be politically involved in the same way. You can't necessarily go protest or campaign for someone. You can't hold certain types of financial products, if you're doing some kind of work at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or Treasury or whatever that might regulate that. So, I think most people that we spoke to first and foremost just really wanted to feel heard and felt so confused at how they'd dedicated their lives to this work and suddenly they were the bad guy. And I think there's an urgency to that. Their lives were changing so quickly, and there was sort of this outpouring of both information and a lot of emotion. So in some ways, I think it has felt very much like having a million close friends going through a breakup at the same time, where you don't want to leave them on read for too long, because people are taking both professional and emotional risks to talk to us, to be open with us, to tell us what their experience is or what they're seeing. And I think the biggest thing in how I've thought about this is, really trying to be responsive because when people are doing that, it's nice to know that there's another person on the other end. So I think there's this sort of immediacy to being responsive to people, to making sure we're asking the right questions while also being empathetic, while also being careful. And that I think would be challenging if it was just a few people, but it's many, many tens of people per each of us. And I think the big thing also is that you never really know where any individual conversation is going to lead, because sometimes people don't know what they know, like they don't know if they have important or insightful information. And so treating every conversation like it is both really valuable because someone can make a really offhand comment of like, "Oh, this system normally works this way, and that can be a puzzle piece that can slot into something that someone else on the team is working on." But also because situations are so fraught right now, treating every conversation like it might be the last time you speak to that person. Katie Drummond: Right, absolutely. I mean, it's a tremendous amount of responsibility to bear. And just thinking about how many people you are talking to at any given time, I mean, it's a lot on one person's shoulders. Now, nine people share a byline on this story, which is relatively unusual for us at WIRED. And what that means if you're listening, is that nine journalists contributed reporting and writing to this single feature that we published on last week. So Tori, how do you work as a team to pull that kind of thing together? How do these nine people come together to pull off all of this reporting, all of this writing? Tell us a little bit about that. Vittoria Elliott: So, this is the moment where we shout out Leah Feiger, Tim Marchman, and Zoe Schiffer, for being the stitchers of things. I feel like me and other people, we just were like, here is the five-page long document of everything we know about the particular things that we're reporting on. And they really went in and, because they've been editing a lot of our pieces and they have this higher level view about where some of our stuff fits with each other, they went in and did that initial stitching across multiple lines of reporting and storytelling. And then there was another document that was slightly shorter but not much shorter, and there's a lot of cool details that made it into the feature. There's also a lot of really interesting details that we just kind of couldn't get in there. Katie Drummond: Pick one. Is there anything that didn't make it into that story that you wish had, that you can share? Vittoria Elliott: Initially we had some interesting stuff in there from a freelancer in South Africa. Katie Drummond: Oh, wow. Vittoria Elliott: Who had talked a little bit about the way that when apartheid was in place and the white South African government, the way that they brute force transformed the country. And how growing up in that for someone like Musk, might really inform what you believe a top-down structure of elites in government might be able to do. And I think that was a really interesting perspective, but ultimately, we didn't get to use it for the piece. And also because it's I think, hard sometimes to speculate what is in anybody's head, but I think that kind of context of, where might someone's reference point be for the kind of decisions that they're making or how they think the system should work, is really interesting. Katie Drummond: That is interesting. Now, this feature that we published documented essentially the first six weeks of Musk and DOGE in D.C. inside the federal government. Let's imagine for a minute, not something journalists are necessarily particularly good at. Vittoria Elliott: I don't think it's that we're not good at it. I think it's that we're very careful about facts. Katie Drummond: We're very careful, and we're going to do this very carefully. Let's imagine another six weeks go by. It's early May, Tori, and we are working on the second big feature about DOGE. What story do you think WIRED might be telling about DOGE by then? Knowing of course, that this is informed speculation, this is by no means the facts that we like to traffic in. Vittoria Elliott: Well, I think we're probably going to have much more emphasis on Social Security Administration, that is according to reporting from our colleagues, Makena Kelly and David Gilbert, that's where a lot of DOGE operatives are currently concentrated right now. So I think, and Musk has already floated a lot of language around needing to curtail entitlements. Katie Drummond: Yes. Vittoria Elliott: So I think social security will probably be the major focal point of whatever next beat there is. I think we're also going to see, as we've already seen, the Trump Administration has talked about really collapsing certain agencies like the Department of Education and USAID, folding them into other agencies. So, I think that we may also be looking at that, the sort of, what does it mean when you have whole agencies established by Congress being consolidated together or into other agencies? And what is that going to mean for things like data privacy? What is that going to mean for their systems? And I think maybe another thing that we're going to see more of is the use of AI tools by the government. What's being rolled out, where? Who's using it? What data is it being trained on? I think all of those questions are going to become more salient as the time goes on. And a lot of DOGE people are what we call special government employees. They are only supposed to have a tenure of around 130 days, which is about six months, which means that those who are doing this first wave of DOGE strike force may be out by June, and there may be a whole new group of people coming in to take their place. So, I think we will also be thinking about who is going to come in, assuming that they abide by these rules and they don't get extensions or special exceptions or whatever. I think we're going to be looking more at who's going to be coming in, what companies they're coming from. And I think we'll have a greater sense at that point at the extent to which these private sector connections are now firmly rooted in government. Katie Drummond: Fascinating, that was an excellent prediction. Thank you. We're going to take a short break, when we come back, Tori tells you what you need to read on WIRED today. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley . I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's Global Editorial Director. I'm joined by WIRED's Tori Elliott. Tori, before I let you go, tell our listeners what they absolutely must read on today, other than the stories we talked about in this episode. Vittoria Elliott: Well, I'm going to do another shameless plug for the politics team. Katie Drummond: Please do. Vittoria Elliott: So, we published a story this week by Leah Feiger and Zoe Schiffer about Donald Trump holding another million dollar candlelight dinner at Mar-a-Lago, featuring Elon Musk and I believe what appears to be Shivon Zilis, who is an executive at Neuralink, the brain computer interface company that Musk founded. And Zilis is also the mother of a few of the many of Musk's children. Katie Drummond: A few. Vittoria Elliott: So I think it's one of those things that, first off, this is extraordinarily early in a presidency to be raising money already. And secondly, particularly with Musk as a backer who is committing tens of millions of dollars to the Trump campaign or to Trump more generally. But I think what we really see is this appropriation of Trump's time in this way, and it's pretty concerning because it's one thing to pay a lot of money to go to a fundraiser for a political candidate, we're very used to that during campaign season. I think it's another thing to see that it might become routine because this is the second one that we know of in six weeks. The idea that it might become routine for the president to be hosting dinners where people who can pay a million dollars or more can get a private audience with him. Katie Drummond: Right, you're essentially paying to access President Trump and Elon Musk in this scenario. I think worth pointing out two things that stand out to me. One, Trump can't run for office again. Vittoria Elliott: Yeah, not yet. Katie Drummond: Where this money is going is pretty murky. Two, I thought it was really interesting and notable that the first of these dinners WIRED reported on a few weeks ago was actually on the President's official schedule, this second dinner was not. So it certainly appears as though there is some desire here to fly below the radar in the context of these candlelight dinners. I also hate the fact that candles are involved for some reason, it makes me very uncomfortable. Tori Elliott, thank you so much for joining me today. Vittoria Elliott: Thank you so much for having me. Katie Drummond: All right, that's our show. We will link to all the stories we spoke about in the show notes. If you like what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with any of us for questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Make sure to check out Thursday's episode of Uncanny Valley, all about May Musk. Yes, she's Elon's mom. This episode was edited by Kyana Moghadam. Amar Lal at Macrosound mixed this episode. Pran Bandi is our studio engineer. Jordan Bell is our Executive Producer. Conde Nast's Head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon. And I'm Katie Drummond, WIRED's Global Editorial Director. Goodbye.
