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Forbes
15-05-2025
- Forbes
IFi Audio Unveils Bluetooth Travel DAC And Go Pod Air For Turning IEMs Wireless
The iFi UP Travel is a tiny Bluetooth transmitter and receiver with support for most Hi-Res ... More Bluetooth audio codecs. This little gadget can boost the audio quality of in-flight entertainment, car stereos or laptops. iFi Audio is an innovative and high-performance brand and has launched two innovative new products today. The first is the iFi UP Travel Bluetooth DAC and the second is the Go Pod Air wireless adapter for converting in-ear monitors into high-end wireless earphones. iFi UP Travel is a transmitter and receiver unit for headphones that brings Hi-Res Bluetooth connectivity to cars, in-flight entertainment systems or just about any other audio system. Travel-minded from the ground up, the UP Travel is small enough to fit into a pocket and weighs a mere 25g, even though it has a battery a 10-hour life to keep working across the Atlantic Ocean. Two pairs of headphones can share the UP-Travel's output for watching movies, listening to playlists or catching up on Podcasts, all without the hassle of syncing screens or settling for lower sound quality. At the heart of the UP Travel is Hi-Fi-grade architecture; instead of a System-on-Chip, iFi uses finely tuned and independent audio stages to extract better sound quality. A flip out 3.5mm connector turns the UP Travel on and it can be used as a Bluetooth transmitter or ... More receiver with support for all the high-end Bluetooth audio codecs. Key features of the UP Travel include Bluetooth connectivity, Hi-Res Bluetooth streaming to AUX inputs, a Cirrus Logic DAC, dual Bluetooth headphone pairing, built-in microphones with cVc noise and echo suppression and a 10-hour battery life from a single charge. The UP Travel is compatible with a range of devices and has a 3.5mm connector that flips out when needed. It also has one-touch pairing for Bluetooth devices. The connector folds back into place and automatically switches off to save power. The device has easy one-flick switching between transmitting and receiving modes. With TX mode, users can upgrade their in-flight entertainment audio using high-quality Bluetooth codecs aptX or LDAC. The UP Travel can plug into the 3.5mm audio output of a laptop for high-end Bluetooth streaming, making it suitable for video calls or catching up on Podcasts. UP Travel can upgrade a car audio system by switching to RX mode and plugging into the car's AUX input. Offering Hi-Res Bluetooth streaming with codecs including SBC, AAC, aptX (Classic, Low-Latency, Adaptive), LDAC and LHDC/HWA, UP Travel can improve a car stereo's sound quality. The UP Travel can plug into the AUX input of a car stereo so it receives audio streamed over ... More Bluetooth from a smartphone or other device. Built around a Qualcomm QCC51xx series Bluetooth chipset, the UP Travel also has a Cirrus Logic MasterHIFI DAC, as found in some of iFi's award-winning portables. Completing the design is a bespoke clocking circuit to keep all the individual components working together in sync. The design of the UP Travel enables quick switching between various codec choices. A built-in microphone at the base works with Qualcomm's cVc noise and echo suppression technology to produce clearer phone calls. Compatible with the iFi Nexis app—available on both iOS and Android devices—the UP Travel can have additional features unlocked with the app, as well as personalizing settings and applying any future firmware updates. The iFi UP Travel is available from now and is priced at $99 / £99 / €99. The iFi GO Pod Air loops can turn high-end in-ear monitors into Hi-Res Bluetooth earphones with ... More support for codecs like aptX Adaptive and LDAC. iFi's second new product announced today is the GO Pod Air, a compact and affordable device that can turn wired earphones—such as IEMs—into Hi-Res Bluetooth wireless earphones thanks to audiophile-grade architecture. While Bluetooth True Wireless Stereo earbuds are the most popular way for people to listen to music on the go, many audiophiles prefer to listen to wired IEMs. To solve this conundrum, iFi has made a device that can turn a pair of IEMs into Hi-Res Bluetooth wireless earphones with touch controls and noise-free calls. Despite their small size, each GO Pod Air has balanced amplification and intelligent impedance matching to suit almost any pair of IEMs with support for digital music files up to 24-bit/96kHz. Cirrus Logic DAC chips power the sound and everything packs away into a small case for maximum portability. The GO Pod Pro from iFi Audio stow away in a storage case for charging. The system also includes ... More touch controls and microphones for making phone calls. Unlike most wireless earbuds, which rely on a single chip for connection, conversion and amplification, the iFi GO Pod Air uses true Hi-Fi architecture. Each Pod includes a Qualcomm QCC514x series chip just for Bluetooth reception. The digital signal is then sent to a Cirrus Logic MasterHIFI DAC before being boosted by a balanced amplification stage backed up by a dedicated clock for perfect sync between the components. Each Pod weighs just 10 grams and the storage case is 40% lighter than iFi's first-generation GO Pod and is nearly 20% smaller. iFi offers a selection of interchangeable ear loops to suit almost every type of IEM and includes 2-pin and MMCX loops as standard. T2, A2DP and Pentaconn loops are also available separately. The iFi GO Pod Air's intelligent impedance matching works at three different settings—16, 32 and 64Ω. Simply connect the IEMs, place the Pods in their charging case for a moment and the system automatically detects the impedance and adjusts everything to the best match. The iFi GO Pod Air can fit IEMs with two-pin and MMCX connectors and other connectors are available. With a comprehensive suite of Bluetooth audio codecs—including SBC, AAC, aptX (Classic, HD, Adaptive), LDAC and LHDC/HWA—the iFi Go Pod Air can work with any phone, tablet or transmitter. Each Pod has intuitive and responsive touch controls for controlling calls, music and volume levels. There is also support for voice assistants like Siri and Google Assistant. When making phone calls, the GO Pod Air can pick up the user's voice with dual microphones and Qualcomm's cVc echo and noise suppression technology cleans things up. The GO Pod Air is IPX5 rated, providing protection when out running in the rain, commuting during a downpour or sweating it out at the gym. The touch controls can be disabled to avoid unwanted commands. The iFi GO Pod Air has up to seven hours of playback from a single charge, plus the travel case extends this to a total of 15 hours. The iFi GO Pod Air is available from and priced at $249 / $249 / €249. Tech Specs:
Zawya
13-05-2025
- Business
- Zawya
Sharjah Media City welcomes participants of the seventh edition of the Young Arab Media Leaders Program
Sharjah: Reflecting Sharjah's leadership as the capital of Arab media, Sharjah Media City (Shams) welcomed a new batch of participants from the future of Arab media. The program, organized by the Arab Youth Center, featured 55 young men and women representing 18 Arab countries. This visit came as part of Shams' commitment to empowering the new generation of media professionals and providing them with the skills and expertise they need to keep pace with the rapid transformations in the modern media industry, particularly in the field of digital audio content such as podcasts, which is one of the fastest-growing and most attractive media formats for today's youth. His Excellency Rashid Abdullah Al Obad, Director General of Sharjah Media City (Shams), emphasized that youth are the true engine of any media renaissance, emphasizing the importance of keeping pace with modern media transformations. HE said, "We at Sharjah Media City (Shams) believe that youth are the true engine of any modern media renaissance." From this perspective, we are keen to harness our capabilities and projects to support and empower them, providing them with the necessary tools to create meaningful, innovative, and future-proof Arabic content." Al-Obad added: "We are proud to host this elite group of ambitious young people, and we consider this visit an important step in building bridges of future cooperation and exchanging expertise between Shams and leading Arab media initiatives. The participants expressed their great admiration for the advanced infrastructure and integrated services provided by Shams, noting the importance of this experience in broadening their horizons and developing their media skills in a practical and effective manner.
WIRED
23-04-2025
- Automotive
- WIRED
Is Tesla on the Outs in China?
By Zoë Schiffer and Zeyi Yang Apr 23, 2025 1:29 PM Despite being the biggest electric vehicle market in the world, China might decide it's had enough of Tesla. In this episode of Uncanny Valley , we break it all down. Elon Musk, chief executive officer of Tesla Inc., during a cabinet meeting at the White House in Washington, DC, US, on Thursday, April 10, 2025. Photograph:China has long been an important market for Tesla and for Elon Musk, but with the new US tariffs and rising competition in the electric vehicle market, Tesla may be on the outs in China. Today on the show, we're joined by senior writer Zeyi Yang to talk about what this means for Elon Musk's company. Mentioned in this episode: DOGE Is Building a Master Database to Surveil and Track Immigrants by Makena Kelly and Vittoria Elliott Stumbling and Overheating, Most Humanoid Robots Fail to Finish Half-Marathon in Beijing by Zeyi Yang You can follow Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer and Zeyi Yang on Bluesky at @zeyiyang. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Zoë Schiffer: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley . I'm WIRED's Director of Business and Industry Zoë Schiffer. Today on the show, Tesla's troubles in China and what it means for Elon Musk's wallet. We're going to talk about how China is the biggest electric vehicle market in the world and has played a major role in Tesla's growth. But with the US tariffs and rising competition in the country, China may just be done with Tesla. We'll see. I'm joined today by Zeyi Yang, senior writer at WIRED. Zeyi, welcome to the show. Zeyi Yang: Thanks for having me, Zoë. Zoë Schiffer: Tesla is scheduled to release its first quarter earnings today, after a pretty grim quarter for the company's stock price. Can we just start with what are we expecting to see from these results? Because we're recording a few hours before they actually come out. Zeyi Yang: Exactly. I'm also looking for the result, too. But I think we already know that Tesla sales has doing pretty bad in Europe. It may have also been bad in the USA. Really, China may have been one of the last market where its sales are still doing relatively okay, but we're about to find out. I think from what I saw, the data collected by Chinese industry associates, they're saying that Tesla's doing still okay this year, mostly because of they release a new model of their car. But if not for that, maybe would have went down, too. Zoë Schiffer: Let's take a bit of a step back, because China has been a really important market for Tesla and for Elon Musk generally. He's a celebrity there and so is his mom, as you've reported. Zeyi Yang: Yes, she is. Zoë Schiffer: Can you talk to me about that relationship? And also, what is Tesla's standing like in China? Is it viewed as a popular, cool car still? Zeyi Yang: It's still sort of, because for the longest time, Chinese auto brands have been seen as much inferior than foreign brands. Tesla still has that halo on as this American electric car company. But it's losing it as we speak. Also, when we talk about the relationship between Tesla and China, sometimes I forget how far back it dates. There's one very interesting figure we have to talk about. His name is Zhuanglong. He used to be Chinese Minister of Industry and Information Technologies. Basically, the chief ministry of innovations in China. He went to San Francisco in 2008 and tried one of the roadsters, one of the first electric cars that Tesla makes. Because he came from the auto industry, he was an electric car nerd. That's how this all started. Then, from Musk's very first visit to China in 2014, he met this guy again. He really tried to push for it to sell his car in China, and later we know built a Gigafactory in Shanghai in 2020. That's a long history of how Musk and Tesla entered China. But what we know for now is that China is one of the most production facility for Tesla. It's also one of the biggest market for Tesla. Tesla absolutely cannot lose China. Zoë Schiffer: That's really fascinating, because we know with other tech companies like Google and Meta, they tried really, really hard to get into China and weren't quite as successful, or completely failed in some cases. But Elon Musk was able to prevail. Do we know why that was? Zeyi Yang: I think it helps that he's working on a car company instead of a social media company, because there's just so much stricter control over information and internet in China. Whereas if you're just making a car, it don't really go across those red lines that China has. Also, it just helps that China, for the last two decades, have really been thinking, "Maybe I should be betting on electric vehicle as the future of transportation, too." It did welcome Tesla to be a part of its grand experiment, and also investment to build up an EV empire. That's why Tesla become a very central part of it and contributed to how China has achieved so far. Zoë Schiffer: Well, that leads right into my next question, because China has invested really heavily in electric vehicles. In part, I think, to reduce its dependency on foreign oil imports. How is that going so far? Zeyi Yang: It's going pretty well, I will say. Yeah. China does not have very rich oil reserve and it has been importing oil from a lot of other places for the longest time. That's why the Chinese government have always been very careful about that, because if, for example, a World War III happens, those oil supply are going to be cut off. What is it going to do? I think in the early days, I will say the early 2000s, the idea of electric vehicles was this moonshot idea. Where they were thinking, "Maybe, if one day all the cars will be powered by electricity, then we don't need to import this oil anymore and we'll be much more secure if war breaks out." That's when they really started investing in the research of batteries and electric vehicles as a college research funds. But then, that gradually lead to Chinese companies building up. They heavily subsidize any car company who can make actually a product that get run on the road and customers can buy. All of that, after years of heavy spending, lead to what we have right now, which is a very booming electric vehicle market in China. I think the latest data says that more than 50% of consumers when they're trying to buy a new car, they go for electric rather than a gas car. That's pretty remarkable. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, that's really interesting. It's also something we're hearing a lot about now. We're seeing people close to President Trump saying, "Hey, look at China. They really help their homegrown tech companies, and now China seems to be beating us in key markets." It's this idea that perhaps the US government should have a friendlier relationship with the tech companies that are created in the United States. Zeyi Yang: Well, I will say it's more of a love and hate relationship between the Chinese government and their homegrown companies, because we definitely have seen the honeymoon eras where they subsidize them, where they get the domestic market and driven out all of the foreign competitors. But also, there are periods, I think around 2020, when they really cracked down on the tech companies like Alibaba and Tencent. It can backfire. The government can help you, but it can also destroy you. Zoë Schiffer: Okay. Who is Tesla's biggest competition in the country right now? Which cars are we seeing become more popular than Tesla? Zeyi Yang: There are so many, I will say dozens are EV brands in China right now. The biggest probably is BYD, just because of its sheer size. BYD, a Chinese company, that started really by making batteries and small electronics, now is I think the biggest electric vehicle companies in the world in terms of the number of cars they sell. Bigger than Tesla. Of course, they're growing in China and they're selling their cars much cheaper and in much more varieties in China. But we're also seeing there are a few more electric car, I will call it startups because they were funded in the last 10 years or so, but still they are big players in the Chinese market now, too. They are Neo, they are Li Auto. These companies have really rosen up from having nothing and becoming a big player, pushing for affordable and also capable cars to the market now. Zoë Schiffer: When we hone in on BYD specifically, what is that car like compared to a Tesla? I guess, I want your subjective opinion now. Are they better or are they just cheaper? Zeyi Yang: I think the biggest thing is that they come in more variety. You will get a very cheap car, for example, I don't know, a Toyota Corolla, something similar to that, but in an EV form by BYD. Or if you want a luxury SUV, you want something that you can show off to your friends, BYD offers that, too. Where Tesla really only have, what, three models being offered right now? It's hard to compete with them when you know consumers want very different things. The other thing I find really interesting is that because, I guess Chinese EV companies are already pretty confident with the quality of their car now, they're going for those very niche, very weird applications. They're making cars that can run in water, like turn into a boat. They're making cars that can allow you to play computer games, and they even have a hotpot in there. Not everyone's going to use it like that, but maybe someone will see that and be like, "I want a car that allow me to do that once in a year." Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh. Well, as someone who really liked the show Pimp My Ride on MTV when I was younger, maybe this was what I need in my life. We'll be right back. When we return, what does this mixed economic outlook mean for Elon Musk's wallet? The outlook seems mixed for Elon Musk's future in China, or Tesla's future in China I should say. What does this mean him, and specifically his overall wealth? Zeyi Yang: I will say that, first of all, he really wants to make sure the factory in Shanghai keeps producing more cars, because it is the most productive plant in Tesla. He wants it to keep churning out cars. But if the foreign demand doesn't catch up, then what are these cars for? We know right now it's mostly for I would say the European market and also the Chinese domestic market. He's proud that these factories are running 24/7. If that doesn't happen, it would really hurt Tesla's Shanghai factory's efficiency and that would not be good for him. Zoë Schiffer: Musk is in an interesting position with his business interests in China, particularly as the Trump Administration gets more antagonistic toward the Chinese Communist Party. Can you talk about that a little bit? And also, how do you see that playing out? Zeyi Yang: I think the whole development's very fascinating to me. One thing I want to mention right now is that, obviously everyone's talking about the tariffs. The Chinese government and Chinese people hate that Trump is slapping at 145% tariff on Chinese imports. Musk actually doesn't like that. He said it publicly on X, that he doesn't think the tariffs are a good idea. That is because if you are a multinational company doing business in US and China, you are going to be impacted by those tariffs. Even though we know that the cars made in the Shanghai factory aren't exactly shipped to the United States, but maybe they're trading car parts in emergencies maybe, or there's some kind of business developed between the countries that will be cut off by these tariffs. That's not good new for him. I think that's a good example to show that, even though we know Musk and Trump are in this very close alliance, there's still diverging interests between them. How to handle business deals with China, how to handle the private sector connections with China, that is one thing I think they will disagree on. Zoë Schiffer: We know from other reporting that Elon tried to privately lobby Trump against the tariffs on China, and ultimately he appears to have been unsuccessful, at least so far. It's interesting to see it play out, because those of these men seem very interested in their own bottom line and their own business interests. When those interests align, they get along really well, but China is this point where they seem to diverge, like you said, quite intensely. I'm curious if that will become a breaking point in the relationship, or if they'll be able to resolve their differences. Zeyi Yang: Yeah. The other thing I want to point out is that, for the longest time, China, both the Chinese people and the government, have really viewed Musk as one of their friends. They came here, helped us prop up the electric vehicle industry, and are still contributing a lot of tax dollar from their Shanghai Tesla factory. Now I think they're in a bit of figuring out what's their new attitude to Musk. It's like, "He's still doing all of those things. His company is still contributing to our economy." But at the same time, he's a close ally of Trump that's absolutely wreaking havoc to our economy. What do we see there? When I go on social media and just watch how people comment about Musk, I see a lot of mix there. There's people who still see him as the future of technology. But then there are people who are like, "Why don't you say something about the tariffs?" Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. It's so interesting. It'll be very curious to see whether his celebrity status starts to fade. Or even, we've seen in the United States and Europe, if this symbol of what a Tesla means, it used to be this very cool, environmental symbol, become something different altogether. We've all seen those bumper stickers that are like, "I bought this Tesla before Elon Musk went crazy," or whatever. Zeyi Yang: Yeah. Zoë Schiffer: I think the point where we know it's really shifted is when Maye Musk's popularity starts to decline, because you've reported that she's an enormous celebrity in China. Zeyi Yang: Oh, that would be a big change, for sure. I don't see that happening yet, but maybe soon. Zoë Schiffer: We're going to take another short break. When we come back, we'll share our recommendations for what to check out on this week. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley . I'm Zoë Schiffer, WIRED's director of business and industry. I'm joined by WIRED's Senior Writer Zeyi Yang. Before we take off, Zeyi, tell our listeners what they absolutely need to read on today. Zeyi Yang: I will say it's the story about how DOGE is building a massive immigration database by my colleagues Mackena and Victoria. I read the story on Monday morning when I was just coming back from work and my head was blown. I was like, "Oh, wow." It's connecting so many dots of our previous DOGE reporting, including some by you, Zoë. I remember when I was reading all of those previous reporting, I was thinking that, "Why do they want all of this data? What is it going to be of use to them?" Now, when we're finally connecting dots and be like, "Hey, maybe this is what they were going for," I think that's such a much better explainer of the whole DOGE operation to me. The last thing is that, I don't know, there are just so many granular details in that story. Absolutely everyone should read it. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, I completely agree. I think one thing we were wondering from the very early days of DOGE, because we saw them sucking up all of this data, or at least accessing it in a lot of different ways. The question was why, like you said. Now we know at least one use might be to track people coming into this country. Zeyi Yang: I have to say that, as someone from China, this is something people are always afraid of the Chinese government doing. They're saying that, "Well, you obviously have a lot of data of the Chinese people already. Please do not connect them and build into a central database to surveil everyone." Now we're seeing a similar kind of thing being built in the US and that makes me even more scared. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, completely. Okay. Well, my recommendation is a story that you wrote. You took your Saturday and probably some of your Friday to write about this humanoid robot half-marathon. It was a half-marathon that humans were running in, but also about 21 robots were running in. I think it was the first time we've seen this happen. You wrote this really charming, funny, scary at points dispatch from the race. Maybe because you're here, you can just give us a little bit of an overview, because the robots didn't do that well, right? Zeyi Yang: No. Unfortunately, no. I was expecting them to do a little bit better, but no. Basically, on Saturday morning in China, this was this half-marathon race in Beijing where 21 robot teams participated. Only six of them actually finished the race, and only one of them made it into the cut of time for human athletes. From that you know, they're not doing great. But also, just the literal ways that they fall and fail, it's hilarious. One of them, I remember so clearly. First of all, I don't think it actually worked. It used propellers, like drone propellers to push the robot forward. It immediately lost its direction, twirled in two circles, and fell. And dragged down the human operators too, which was really, really painful. I think it's a good example of saying that robots can do impressive things now, like for example finishing a half-marathon. But at the same time, there are a lot of problems we need to address. Definitely not every company is getting to that level. Zoë Schiffer: Honestly, it comforts me a little bit that there are some things that they're still worse at than humans, although I'm sure it will change soon. That's our show for today. We'll link to all the stories we spoke about in the show notes. Make sure to check out Thursday's episode of Uncanny Valley , which is about protecting yourself from phone searches at the US border. If you like what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with us for any questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Kyana Moghadam and Adriana Tapia produced this episode. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Pran Bandi was our New York studio engineer. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Conde Nast's head of global audio is Chris Bannon. Katie Drummond is WIRED's global editorial director.
WIRED
17-04-2025
- Politics
- WIRED
How Americans Are Surveilled During Protests
Protesters rally in Manhattan to demand an end to cuts in science, research, education and other areas by the Trump administration on April 08, 2025 in New York City. Photo-Illustration: WIRED Staff; Photograph: Spencer Platt There have been a number of protests in the past few months pushing back against President Trump's most recent policy changes, and we're likely to see more. Today on the show, WIRED's senior editor of security and investigations, Andrew Couts, talks us through the technology being used by law enforcement to surveil protests, how surveillance tech has evolved over the years, and what it means for anyone taking to the streets or posting to social media to voice their concerns. Plus, we share WIRED tips on how to stay safe, should you choose to protest. You can follow Michael Calore on Bluesky at @snackfight, Lauren Goode on Bluesky at @laurengoode, and Andrew Couts on Bluesky at @couts. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. [Archival audio]: No justice, no peace. Ho ho. Trump and Musk have got to go. Michael Calore: People are taking to the streets to challenge President Donald Trump's most recent policy changes, some of which have been created with the aid of Elon Musk and his so-called Department of Government Efficiency. [Archival audio]: All 50 states saw these so-called hands-off rallies and so did a few cities in Europe. Michael Calore: The first hands-off protests occurred earlier this month. The Tesla Takedown demonstrations have been rolling for weeks and from the feel of it, we're looking at a summer full of protests. So today we're talking about the risks of being surveilled by law enforcement during protests. We'll talk about how surveillance tech is being used, how it's evolved over the years, and what it means for anyone taking to the streets or posting to social media to voice their concerns. This is WIRED's Uncanny Valley , a show about the people power and influence of Silicon Valley. I'm Michael Calore, Director of Consumer Tech and Culture here at WIRED. Lauren Goode: And I'm Lauren Goode. I'm a senior writer at WIRED. Michael Calore: Katie Drummond is out today, but we're joined by WIRED's Senior Editor of Security and Investigations, Andrew Couts. Andrew Couts: Thanks so much for having me. Michael Calore: So let's start by talking about what's going on right now. There are the hands-off protests, there are the Tesla Takedown protests. Are these related at all? Lauren Goode: The hands-off protests and the Tesla Takedown movement are not the same, but they are related. They're both in some way resisting some of the policies that Donald Trump has quickly enacted without congressional approval in the short time since he took office in January. Tesla Takedown is pegged directly at Elon Musk who has this official but unofficial role in Trump's administration as the leader of DOGE. We sometimes refer to him as the Buddy In Chief, and the idea there is to challenge Musk's power as one of the world's richest men by devaluing one of his most important businesses in the private sector, which is Tesla, whereas the hands-off protests are about all kinds of things. They're protesting the firing of federal workers, the overreaching and potentially unconstitutional immigration policies, threats to women's rights and LGBTQ rights, threats to social security, threats to healthcare. The list goes on. The idea is basically get your hands off my rights. Michael Calore: And how are the protests looking? Lauren Goode: They're fairly significant. Tesla Takedown is a grassroots movement that started outside of Tesla dealerships in showrooms back in February and has been happening on an ongoing basis and has gotten quite a bit of attention. Hands-off had its biggest day so far on April 5th I think, and organizers said that there were more 1,300 rallies of varying sizes across the United States on that Saturday. And if you haven't heard of these rallies or seen the sizes of the crowds that people like AOC and Bernie Sanders have been pulling in, then I would seriously question the media that you're consuming because this is really happening. Michael Calore: Yeah, there's been really striking footage of people walking in Manhattan and just wall to wall people down one of the major avenues just for like a mile. Lauren Goode: Right, and not AI generated. Michael Calore: The people who are out taking the streets and engaging in their constitutional right of free speech and assembly, what are they worried about? Lauren Goode: I can't speak for everyone and I want to toss this to Andrew because I think Andrew's going to give us the real meat here in terms of digital surveillance, but I would just say that I think with any protest, even before we all had smartphones and there were surveillance cameras everywhere on every street corner in every train station, you always had to weigh the risks of doing the surveilling as in being a watchdog of the powerful and questioning abuses of power and civil rights versus being surveilled at the same time you're doing it, but because we live in this digital world now, I think surveillance really is one of the biggest threats today. Andrew, do you want to say more about that? Andrew Couts: Yeah, I mean surveillance is just constant and we are all being surveilled constantly if you have a smartphone or just on the internet. So whether someone is being surveilled at a protest, the answer is a hundred percent yes, especially if they have their phone with them and there's obviously other types of surveillance, but I think one of the things that you have to think about if you're going to engage in any type of protest and engage in your first amendment right to speak out against whatever you want to speak out against is that it's not just what's happening at the protest that matters, it's also the constant surveillance that's happening of your social media feeds or any other types of publishing you might do online. You really need to be thinking about your entire life and your entire data footprint and how that's going to be contextualized within you being at a protest. The other thing I'd be worried about is bad actors or anybody committing crimes while you're at that protest, there's a difference between going and exercising your constitutional rights and committing crimes. And I think these days those two get conflated a lot, especially after the 2020 protests where there's a lot of vandalism and violence and the protesters and the people committing crimes get all lumped together and it's very easy to lump people together these days, and I feel like that's happening on an official level in terms of immigration right now with the Department of Justice, the state Department categorizing anybody who they deem as a problematic as either a criminal outright, they'll say that or just canceling visas because somebody spoke out against the war in Gaza. These things are all getting conflated, and so you don't necessarily have power over how you're going to be perceived if you go to a protest and something happens or somebody just decides to characterize that activity in a way that's inaccurate but is potentially consequential for your life. Michael Calore: And to get into how exactly that conflation happens, I want to talk a little bit about how devices and certain signals on social media are used in order to identify you and identify you as a certain type of person or a person who was somewhere. So let's talk specifically about the phone for a minute. What specifically does the phone do to identify you? Andrew Couts: So there's a few ways. The first is even if you had no apps on your phone except for the phone app basically, probably even not then, if you just have the device with you and it's powered on your phone is going to be pinging the nearby cell towers, it's going to ping whatever the tower is that has the highest signal that's close to you and that power is going to be collecting your device ID and the time and date when your phone pinged the tower. And so that information can easily be obtained by police with subpoenas and anything to get just whatever devices were pinging a specific tower. So that's one way. The other way is through the apps on your phone. And so we've done a ton of reporting at WIRED about the ways in which advertising data, which can be collected in a few different ways, but is often collected through developer kits or SDKs, and these can often include very, very precise location data down to which parking spot you parked your car in front of a Home Depot or something. It can be extremely precise and it's constant. And so as long as your phone is on and is communicating with any server that's connected to an SDK on whatever random apps on your phone, that data is then being backing up and used typically to serve you ads, but it can also be purchased by governments, it can be purchased by police departments or anybody, me or you, if you have the money to buy that data and you can see exactly where someone was at a specific time or at least you can see where the device was. And so it's not too difficult to kind of figure out where somebody was at any certain time if you have your device. And so that's one of the main reasons that having a phone with you at a protest, you got to make that decision about whether that's the best choice. Michael Calore: Right. The idea is that as you move around in the world, if law enforcement wants to sort of draw any sort of conclusions about what kind of person you are and who you hang out with and what sorts of places you go, it's relatively easy for them to do so. Andrew Couts: Yeah, absolutely. And the fact is that they're not going to just be using one or the other. They're going to be using basically every tool available to them. So that can include other people's social media posts that show you in photographs or videos. It's going to be police body cameras, it's going to be your own social media posts or statements saying that you were at a certain place at a certain time, and so it's all going to be used together to show like, yes, this person was at X place at X time. Lauren Goode: What is your advice then for sharing the social media from a protest, particularly since social media can be an important tool for getting a message out or letting people know there is a rally happening? Andrew Couts: When making these decisions, it's really depends on your risk threshold. I think if you are really concerned about your safety and maybe your immigration status or your ability to live freely in the United States, I would definitely limit your exposure to other people's social media posts, meaning wear a mask if you're able to, remove any identifying features that you can cover up or make sure you don't have your name on your shirt or anything like that. And definitely don't post to your own social media about the protest if you're really concerned about that. Not everybody's risk levels are going to be the same though. Maybe getting the word out is the most important thing to you, maybe that's your job, but it is definitely something to factor in that you are almost certainly going to be subjected to other people's video and photos and you need to take that into consideration before you decide to go to a protest or how you decide to conduct yourself there. Michael Calore: So if we can assume that what you're doing online and not only moving around in the world, but the things that you're doing online are being monitored, then what about your private conversations? What about if you're using Twitter DMs or if you're on Facebook and you're private messaging with people on Facebook? Lauren Goode: Or WhatsApp or any of the Facebook-owned apps? Michael Calore: Yeah, sure. Is it possible for those types of things to also be exposed through like a subpoena? Basically my question here is are tech companies protecting us in any way against governments prying into our DMs? Andrew Couts: So there's a difference between active surveillance and passive surveillance, especially when we're talking about social media. There are companies that are constantly collecting everything that is posted publicly online about a particular keyword or a hashtag or anything like that. So anytime you're posting about a certain protest or a certain political thing, you might be getting subjected to some kind of surveillance there, but it's very passive. You're part of many people who are talking about a thing presumably, and it's not targeted at you. Then there's active surveillance where you are a subject of an investigation or you're a person of interest to authorities, and that can be much more invasive. So if somebody suspects that you say caught a car on fire at a protest, you may be subjected to subpoenas or your communications may be subjected to subpoenas or warrants, search warrants, and the sky's the limit on how much the police are going to be able to get about your communications if you are subjected to a police investigation or some other government investigation. So those might not be subjected to it because those messages are much more limited in their availability. So that's going to be a big difference in terms of whether you're just at a protest, nothing has happened, you're just posting about stuff on social media that's just going to be probably passively surveilled in one degree or another. If you're subject to an active investigation, that's a much more serious type of surveillance and you're in a much more serious situation. Michael Calore: So there are several companies in Silicon Valley that specialize in surveillance technology. They basically make products that law enforcement and governments can use to surveil people. So I think we should identify some of them. Who are the big names here? Lauren Goode: Well, there are some companies that are specifically in data intelligence, and I think the Silicon Valley company that comes to mind for most people is Palantir. Palantir is building ICE's case management software. That's just one example. There's also Clearview AI, which is a facial recognition company, and then there are data aggregators like Data Miner, and then of course there's the whole network of other tech companies too, whether they're chip makers like Nvidia or Intel or they're cloud service providers like Amazon that directly or indirectly power some of the systems that governments around the world would use in their surveillance technology, if you want to call it a surveillance technology, but there are different contexts for all of these too. For example, Andrew, one of the things that you mentioned in your video series Incognito Mode is you call out Data Miner, but you also say, "But as a journalist I've used that too." Andrew Couts: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of overlap with what reporters do, what journalists do, and what other types of investigators do. You're trying to get the information and connect dots and try to see what you can prove. And so the motivation or the end product of that is going to be very different depending on what your job is. The thing, I think anybody using them regardless of why is just how powerful they are and how much data we're all producing all the time. And I think Data Miner is a good example. It's really one of the main ways that social media is surveilled, and I think when we're talking about social media, we're not just talking about X and Instagram and TikTok, we're talking about all of those plus Reddit forums, everything where there's user participation online is often getting sucked up into these tools as long as those posts are publicly available. A lot of these companies, they're now using AI to perform additional data analysis, at least on these conversations that are happening online and kind of flagging things to say, "This looks like it's maybe a threat," or, "This looks like it maybe falls into whatever parameters that an investigator of any type wants to look into." And so we're taking the human element out of it so it's not just some guy watching your Bluesky feed, it is a computer watching everybody's Bluesky feed and then using AI to flag that for human beings who can then maybe look into it further. It's happening constantly. We just have to assume everything you post, even if you delete it, whatever, it's all being vacuumed up into these big data tools and then potentially used by authorities in whatever way they're going to use them. And I think the biggest change from say the 2020 protests is we don't know how they're going to be used, what the authorities are going to be going after, what they could go after in a year from now. And so when we're talking about assessing our own personal risks, that has to be at the forefront of it is that we don't know what's going to matter or what's going to be a problem or what's going to even be a crime within the near future. Michael Calore: All right, that feels like a good place to take a break. We'll be right back. Okay, let's go back in time a little bit about five years ago to be exact. It's May 2020 and we're in the first year of the pandemic and George Floyd has been murdered by police in Minneapolis. This sparks nationwide an international protest. It also sparked a huge conversation about surveillance technology and how it was being used to monitor protesters. And Andrew, you wrote a story around this time about how hundreds of protesters in New York were arrested and eventually won a landmark settlement against the city of New York. Can you tell us about it and where the surveillance tech came in? Andrew Couts: Yeah, so this is an interesting case where the police body cam footage was ultimately used against the police department in the form of a lawsuit because the plaintiffs in this case and their legal team were able to gather, I think around 6,300 videos from protests around the New York City and use the body cam footage to document instances of police abuse in various ways against the protesters. And so they were able to win millions of dollars by doing this, and they were using the body cam footage that the police were capturing themselves. This is one instance where the system worked how it was supposed to in certain ways. They also used a tool that allowed them to go through this many, many hours of footage to be able to pinpoint instances of police use of force, use of pepper spray, other types of police infractions against the protesters. So it was really an interesting use of surveillance technology used against the police themselves as well as custom big data tools that are able to make sense of all this data because that's a lot of times when we're talking about surveilling protests, we're talking about just massive, massive amounts of data and the data doesn't matter unless you're able to make some sense of it. And so I think the tools that are used to analyze big batches of data are just as important as the tools capturing the activity or the speech or whatever it is themselves. Michael Calore: Back at the time of the 2020 protests, one of the tools that was used to identify who was in a specific location was a geofence warrant. How have geofence warrants evolved since 2020? Andrew Couts: First, let's just start with what a geofence warrant is. A geofence warrant essentially allows law enforcement to go to a tech company and ask for every device that was in a specific location and give us all the devices that were in that location at a specific time. Now, very often police departments would go to Google for this because Google's apps are on so many people's phones or Google makes people's phones, and so they're going to have the most data. They're going to probably get something on every single person who had a phone in that location, in that geofence area. Google has since said that it's no longer going to provide information that way. That doesn't mean police aren't going to still be able to get that data in some form or another, but Google isn't going to just hand over this big batch of data the way that it used to. And so that's one big change. They can also go to another company, they can go to TikTok, they can go to whatever. That said, there's been a couple of changes on the legal front as well. Last year there were two court rulings, one in the Fourth Circuit and one in the Fifth Circuit specifically about geofence warrants. And these court rulings looked almost identical from the beginning of the case, but the rulings were completely the opposite. So essentially the Fourth Circuit ruled that a geofence warrant, it doesn't constitute a search in the way that the fourth Amendment requires. The Fifth Circuit ruled that it does. Michael Calore: And as of April, the Fourth Circuit Court is actively reconsidering its stance on geofence warrants. So there's still more to come, right? Andrew Couts: There's still a lot of ambiguity around it and the changes that Google made definitely impacted police ability to get that information in such a clean one-shot way, but they're still happening. Michael Calore: What if I'm just walking by a protest going from one bus stop to another or getting a bagel? Do I get trapped in the circle that they've drawn on the map? Andrew Couts: Yeah, if you're there at the specific timeframe that the police have stipulated in their geofence warrant, then yeah, you would. Michael Calore: That's super reassuring. So we've talked a lot about police, specifically law enforcement and cities, but also the US government is collecting this information and analyzing the data that they're getting. What agencies are using these technologies to surveil people? Andrew Couts: So we know for certain that the FBI is going to be collecting data for national security purposes. We're likely seeing Department of Homeland Security collecting a lot of data. Customs and border protection are using social media surveillance. ICE is using social media surveillance. At this point, I think you just have to assume all of them are. I mean, part of the capitalism of it all is that these companies are competing and that means prices get lower. And so it's not just one company that's offering it. It's multiple companies that are offering different surveillance platforms or technologies. And so it gets cheaper for governments to get it, and then at some point it's going to make a lot more sense for a certain agency to have it, even if five, 10 years ago they wouldn't have had it. Michael Calore: Okay, let's take another break and then come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley . Okay, let's talk now about what our listeners can do if they want to go and protest out in the streets or if they want to tweet through it, if they want to express themselves online, what measures should they take to protect themselves if they're worried about surveillance and if they feel as though they would not want to share as much information as we now know law enforcement and the government can collect on them? Now, Lauren, you co-authored a piece a few years ago and then just recently updated it with advice for people to go out and protest safely. And I know we have a few different guides on WIRED that people can read, but let's talk through some of the high-level stuff here. This question is for both of you, what are the top things that you would recommend for people who want to go out and protest in person? Andrew Couts: I think the top thing I would consider is whether you should bring your phone with you or not or potentially put it in a Faraday bag, which can block all signals to and from the device and limit that surveillance. That's going to be one of the greatest sources of data for anybody who wants to investigate anyone who's at a specific protest. Your phone is a surveillance machine. The best thing you can do is to throw it in the sea if you want to protect your privacy overall, but that's not practical, so consider leaving it at home. I would also be really careful about what you're posting online. If you're serious about an issue, avoid making flippant jokes that are going to be misconstrued by prosecutors basically. And don't joke about spray-painting Tesla's. Don't joke about committing crimes of any kind. Don't joke about engaging in violence and because that will be used against you if something happens and you find yourself under arrest. Michael Calore: Would you recommend that people turn off biometrics on their phone? That's a tip I see a lot. Lauren Goode: Yeah, that's one of our biggest pieces of advice. Turn off your face ID. Michael Calore: Face ID. Lauren Goode: What do they call it on the Google phone? Michael Calore: They call it fingerprint detection. Lauren Goode: Fingerprint. Sure. The idea being that if you are approached by authorities, and this goes for if you're even traveling through an airport by the way, and you're concerned that you might be detained, the idea is that someone could basically hold the phone up to your face or force you to unlock it versus using a numeric passcode. Michael Calore: Okay, and what stops somebody from holding up your phone and saying, "Plug in your passcode"? Andrew Couts: You can also just say, "I am exercising my right to remain silent," and you can say, "I'm exercising my Fifth Amendment rights." That's the law, which that advice actually stems is because police can't tell you to turn over evidence against yourself, which is ostensibly what a password is if they go in your phone and find something there. I think that advice is especially important. You mentioned airports, but the ACLU has pointed out the so-called a hundred-mile zone, which is a hundred miles from any US border or any ocean where ICE and other immigration authorities can basically just search anybody for any reason. You just have to be a much more cognizant of that. And if you're in the US on a visa, I'd be really, really careful about that because we've seen people who are here perfectly legally, and then their visas get just canceled. So if for some reason you're at a protest that is deemed not within the Trump administration's okay list, you might find yourself just automatically getting your visa canceled or anything like that if you're going to a protest. So I would just add being realistic about your own personal risk thresholds and what personal risks you probably face. The answer to that is to not go, and that's also very problematic because then you are limiting your First Amendment rights yourself and it's the chilling effect, but you have to balance those two things out. We're in kind of no man's land at the moment, and so you have to be really realistic about what makes sense for your own personal life. Michael Calore: So Lauren, what are some of the other things that you would recommend people do to stay safe if they want to go out and protest? Lauren Goode: Well, our guide recommends that you don't go alone. So traveling groups. I would also throw in there avoid taking your own car. Not only is your license plate likely to be scanned, but in terms of the location of your vehicle can be pinpointed specifically to a parking spot. Also, for whatever reason, you have to get out of there sort of quickly, having to get to your car and possibly get out of a log jam doesn't make any sense. So use public transit or traveling groups. Certainly back in 2020, we saw a lot of people wearing masks during the protests because it was covid. It was covid times. It's still not a bad idea to wear a mask, not just for health reasons, but because it obscures some of your face and therefore less of your face is being recorded and stored somewhere. This is kind of social media hygiene, which Andrew has given us a lot of great tips on, but don't capture people's faces in photos and videos. Be considerate. If you are going to take an image, maybe shoot from behind, you can't see people's faces. Try not to capture any sort of distinctive outfits, tattoos, something that could sort of set someone apart because you don't want to be a narc for them basically. Use encrypted messaging once you're on the ground. I mean, I think that these are all kind of standard good safety policies. If you suspect things are really going to get pretty hairy, it's a good idea to have important phone numbers written directly on your body. We sort of joke these days about how we don't remember anyone's phone numbers in our lives. They could be the most important person in your life. It could be your partner and you're like, "I don't know anyone's phone number because it's stored in my phone." But that can become a real issue if your stuff has been confiscated and you've been detained or arrested. A couple other things. Keep in mind the ACLU says you can protest at government buildings, but you should maybe try to stick to traditional public grounds like public streets and the sidewalks outside of government buildings. Don't block access to a government building if you're protesting. Don't do what January six protesters did, and Andrew mentioned your immigration status as well. But basically you really do have to consider the risks quite carefully if you are someone who is here on any kind of student visa or any kind of non-immigrant visa like an H-B or an O-I. I spoke to an immigration attorney who just said, really think twice about going. And she said, "It pains me not to tell people to exercise their First Amendment rights, but you're much more vulnerable in that situation and the risks are much higher for you." Michael Calore: Okay, well, this is all very good advice and I would just add to all of that hydrate, because it's going to be a very long summer and it's going to be very hot summer, and you need to make sure that you don't pass out while you're out there. Lauren Goode: That's good advice. Michael Calore: Andrew, thanks for joining us today for this conversation. It was filled with a lot of great info. Thank you. Lauren Goode: Thanks, Andrew. Andrew Couts: Thanks so much for having me. Michael Calore: And of course, everybody should check out Andrew's YouTube series on WIRED's channel. It is called Incognito Mode, and it's all about surveillance and it's all about digital privacy. Thanks for listening to Uncanny Valley . If you liked what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with us with any questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Today's show is produced by Kyana Moghadam. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Page Oamek fact checked this episode. Jordan Bell is our executive producer, Katie Drummond is WIRED's Global Editorial Director, and Chris Bannon is the Head of Global Audio.
WIRED
27-03-2025
- Business
- WIRED
Unpacking ‘Good Quests,' Christianity, and Caviar Bumps
Photo-Illustration:If you buy something using links in our stories, we may earn a commission. Learn more. The mission of Silicon Valley's entrepreneurs has long been to change the world. But, how do you know whether a pursuit is good or bad? ACTS17 collective, a Christian faith-based group of tech entrepreneurs, says a strong relationship with God is the answer. Today on the show, we talk about the people promoting a faith-based approach to tech, we learn what a 'good quest' is, and we ask what impact religion will have on the type of ventures the valley pursues in the future. You can follow Michael Calore on Bluesky at @snackfight, Lauren Goode on Bluesky at @laurengoode, and Zoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschiffer. Write to us at uncannyvalley@ How to Listen You can always listen to this week's podcast through the audio player on this page, but if you want to subscribe for free to get every episode, here's how: If you're on an iPhone or iPad, open the app called Podcasts, or just tap this link. You can also download an app like Overcast or Pocket Casts and search for 'uncanny valley.' We're on Spotify too. Transcript Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors. Michael Calore: Question for the group. When was the last time you went to church? Zoë Schiffer: That's a big question. I'm Jewish, so I think we go to a temple, not church. And I went pretty recently, for the High Holidays. Lauren? Michael Calore: Very nice. Lauren Goode: Lovely. I think I went when I was on vacation. I like popping into churches when I'm traveling to different places. Michael Calore: Nice. Light a little candle? Lauren Goode: Yeah, just look at the architecture. Zoë Schiffer: That's cool. What about you, Mike? Lauren Goode: Yeah. What about you? Michael Calore: I swear I was listening to what you were both saying, but while you were talking, while also listening, I was also racking my brain to try and remember the last time that I was in a church, and I cannot remember the last time. I really just do not know. Zoë Schiffer: That's totally fair. Michael Calore: Well, Silicon Valley has its own relationship with God, and that is what we're going to be talking about this week. Is everybody ready? Zoë Schiffer: I'm very ready. Lauren Goode: I'm ready for confession time. Michael Calore: This is WIRED's Uncanny Valley, a show about the people power and influence of Silicon Valley. I'm Michael Calore, Director of Consumer Tech and Culture here at WIRED. Lauren Goode: I'm Lauren Goode. I'm a senior writer at WIRED. Zoë Schiffer: And I'm Zoe Schiffer WIRED's, Director of Business and Industry. Michael Calore: Power, money and Influence. This has long been part of the allure for many in the tech world, but for a growing group in the Valley, there's a new path to success, God. Today, we're talking about the Silicon Valley Christians who are promoting a faith-based approach to innovation. We'll drop in on a San Francisco party where tech bigwigs and influential figures talk business and the Bible, we'll learn about, quote, unquote, "Good quests," and we'll ask the big question, what impact will religion have on the type of ventures the Valley pursues in the future? So Lauren, tell us about this party you went to. Lauren Goode: Which one? I go to so many parties. Michael Calore: Well, let's start with the party in New Mexico. Lauren Goode: Yes. Okay. That one. To be totally clear, I was not at this party. It's been written about, and I've heard about it directly from one of the hosts. This was a three-day birthday party held in New Mexico in November of 2023. And the theme of it was The Roast, the Toast and the Holy Ghost. Zoë Schiffer: Oh my gosh. Say what you will about tech people, but they know how to make a party theme. Lauren Goode: So this party was for the 40th birthday of someone named Trae Stephens, who is a well-known venture capitalist and entrepreneur. WIRED his written about him before. Our colleague, Steven Levy, did a big interview with Trae last year. And this party, according to Trae's wife, Michelle, was designed to be a playoff of Kanye West's Sunday Service. They booked a DJ who remixes worship songs, but also it was like a party, right? They said they served caviar bumps, there was breakfast pizza, there was mimosas. A good time was to be had. But what really kind of stood out from this party is that one of Trae's business partners, Peter Thiel, gave a fire side chat that had all of the attendees talking. Michael Calore: Okay. Zoë Schiffer: I honestly did not know that Peter Thiel was religious at all until I started talking to you about this. Michael Calore: And we should back up and say a little bit about Peter Thiel, and about who he is and why he's important. Lauren Goode: Yeah, for the uninitiated, Peter Thiel is another well-known venture capitalist, and he's known for many reasons. He's one of the original founders of PayPal, the so-called PayPal Mafia. He's an early investor in Facebook, so he's incredibly wealthy. In media circles, he's infamous for having backed the lawsuit that put Gawker Media out of business. In politics, he's been a very vocal supporter of Donald Trump, and Peter Thiel's network of right-wing allies has been infiltrating the Trump administration. And to your point, Zoe, he's also religious. This sermon that he gave at Trae Stephens's birthday party has been described as, "A fire side chat on miracles and forgiveness." And it was after this fire side chat that he gave, that" according to Michelle Stephens, the wife of Trae, people were coming up to her and saying, I didn't know Peter was a Christian. How can you be gay and a billionaire and be Christian?" And even something like, "I didn't know you could be smart in a Christian, "Michelle says that people said to her. Michael Calore: Oh, no. Lauren Goode: And then they started asking, "And where do you go to church in San Francisco?" Michael Calore: So where do they go to church in San Francisco? Zoë Schiffer: They are not talking about doing yoga at Grace Cathedral. Lauren Goode: They go to a church that's called Epic Church, which has been around for several years in San Francisco. But according to the pastor there, it has grown in attendance in recent years. But in addition to the Stephens's being members at this church, and other people in the tech community, Michelle Stephens, who is an entrepreneur, was entrepreneurial and decided to start a non-profit that hosts gatherings where people come and give talks, kind of like the one that Peter Thiel gave at that birthday party. And I ended up going to one of their events recently. It was really interesting. They call this group the ACTS, that's A-C-T-S 17 Collective, and it's an acronym, it stands for Acknowledging Christ in Technology and Society. Michael Calore: And these are ticketed talks? Lauren Goode: They're ticketed talks. Michael Calore: Okay. Lauren Goode: Fifty bucks and you have a direct line to God. He's on your speed dial. Zoë Schiffer: Do they feel more like parties or more like church? Lauren Goode: Well, this is a great question, because the event that I went to recently in San Francisco is in a private home that is a converted church. It was in this room... You're nodding 'cause I think you know exactly where it is. Right? Michael Calore: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Zoë Schiffer: Is it the one by Dolores? Lauren Goode: Yes. Zoë Schiffer: It is? Oh my gosh, I've always been so curious about that space. Lauren Goode: It's beautiful. There's a big cavernous room that has a large arched window in the back on an exposed brick wall, and high ceilings and soundproofing along the walls, wood paneling. So when you are in it, you're like, "I feel like I'm in a church," except that it was low-key party vibes. The DJ was spinning some light beats, ambient music. There were bartenders, there's food. Zoë Schiffer: Caviar or no caviar? Lauren Goode: There were name badges. There were no caviar bumps. Zoë Schiffer: Bummer. Lauren Goode: Such a bummer. Yeah. Michael Calore: And what was the talk? Lauren Goode: So this talk actually featured Trae Stephens himself. The ACTS 17 Collective has done a few previous talks with other people, but this one was Trae being interviewed by a fellow venture capitalist, who appropriately, was named Christian. And they were talking about this concept of good quests, which is something that Trae has written about before. He and a co-writer published an article in 2022 about the idea of good quests. Good quests is a framework for thinking about the work that you do. And let's just assume you're a techie, you're an entrepreneur, you're a venture capitalist, you're a startup person, and you're trying to find meaning through your work. And good quests is a way to find and do work that feels purposeful or meaningful in some way. And that means you are on a good quest. It also means that there are bad quests. Michael Calore: I see. Lauren Goode: Which is a lot of what they talked about. Michael Calore: So, the good quests and bad quests thing sounds like a big topic that we should talk about, but I want to put a pin in it for the moment because I want to talk about the business connections that happen at these meetings. I'm assuming that these meetings are not just for people to get together and listen to conversations about God, but they're probably meetings where people network. And is there a hope that Peter Thiel will show up at these meetings? Lauren Goode: Sorry, I shouldn't laugh. Zoë Schiffer: It was certainly Lauren's hope. Lauren Goode: Yeah. Well, I have a couple questions for him. He has spoken at these events before, so sure, networking is definitely a part of it. And one of the things that Act 17 has said is that they're not only inviting Christians to these events, they're inviting people of all denominations. And even if you're an atheist, you can join. They want to get the conversation started. Some people are there because they genuinely want to find their faith again or be able to express it freely. And I think other people are there for the hang and for the networking, and to rub elbows with people like Trae Stephens or someone like Garry Tan from Y Combinator, who was at this recent event. And I actually think that they're okay with that, because at events like these, the themes of religion and work are commingled so much that sometimes it's indistinguishable to fully understand what it is they're talking about. Michael Calore: Yeah. And Peter Thiel's Faith was such a big catalyst for this movement that the Stephens's have started. And I just wonder if you can get into a little bit about what connection with Peter Thiel is with this group and this couple? Lauren Goode: Yeah, so it's actually quite a big network of Peter Thiel-related companies and investments. So, Peter Thiel runs a venture capital firm called Founders Fund, and Trae Stephens is a partner there. Trae also co-founded Anduril, which is a defense tech company that builds weapons like autonomous drones and underwater vessels. Peter Thiel's Founders Fund is a big investor in Anduril. Trae Stephens was also an early employee at Palantir. Palantir is a data intelligence company that Peter Thiel co-founded with someone named Alex Karp. I mentioned Garry Tan earlier. He was also an early employee at Palantir. Now, he has his own venture capital firm and he runs Y Combinator, but he has been involved in Act 17 events. So this non-profit and their event series was partly inspired by Peter Thiel and just the talk that he gave, but also it's a pretty tight network of really high-profile techies who also happen to be linked to these tech firms that make defense tech for the government who are involved in these talks. Michael Calore: It is such an interesting juxtaposition that these folks who are coming together to talk about their faith, and to talk about Christian values and promoting them in technology, are also building systems that support more. Zoë Schiffer: They don't see those things as in conflict, I don't think, from what I've read. Alex Karp has talked about similar themes. He has a new book out, and he said specifically that the fact that so many smart people are working on social media apps when they could be working on, he doesn't say the word good quests, but it definitely has that flavor, is in his mind a big problem. Lauren Goode: Say more about that, Zoe, because Trae talked a lot about this, too. The consultants at McKinsey and people who are making photo sharing apps are getting a really bad rap these days amongst this crowd. And I want to hear more about what Karp has been saying about that. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. He talks a lot about how the idea that all societies are equal in his mind is simply not true. That we should think of the United States as unique and worthy of protecting and preserving in terms of our culture. And so, if you believe that working on national defense is a really important vocation, a calling even. Just while we're talking about these big name people and their relationship with religion, he was doing a Q & A with Barry Weiss at a university recently, and one of the students asked, "What could we do to help the working class?" And he answered with a bunch of different suggestions, but he said his number one suggestion was introducing them to religion, which I thought was quite interesting. Lauren Goode: It's almost like is there a tension here? Which is I what you're getting at Mike? Michael Calore: Yeah. Lauren Goode: In espousing your beliefs and your religion, but also using it as an interesting framework, where in some cases you're casting a moral judgment upon the jobs that people do in their day-to-day lives or to support their families, to live, basically, right? And it's particularly interesting when it's coming from these powerful figures in technology who happen to build tools and services and apps that are used by the federal government and defense, right? Because you might hold up one and say, "Well, that seems incongruous with doing good things for society." And what's interesting now is that these figures are expressing these ideological and religious beliefs and infusing the Silicon Valley hustle culture with them. Michael Calore: And we'll have to talk more about that culture, but first we need to take a break. So let's do that and come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. So Lauren, when you spoke to Michelle Stephens for your story, she mentioned that she had felt tokenized as a Christian in Silicon Valley. And Christianity was sort of a dirty word in the Valley for a long time. Right? Lauren Goode: I don't know if I would describe it so much as a dirty word as I would that I've heard from people that they maybe have felt uncomfortable before in the highly agnostic Silicon Valley, talking openly in professional settings about their faith. I spoke to one entrepreneur and venture capitalist at the event who said he's been working in the Valley since 2005, and he's always been Christian, but he never really felt like he could wear it on his sleeve before. And more recently, and he specifically said since the pandemic, he's been a little bit more open about it. And through that, has been pleasantly surprised to see other people say, "Oh, hey, I'm a Christian too." But I think Silicon Valley in general, you're right, has long been perceived as agnostic and even atheistic. Some of the data, however, shows that people are actually more rooted in religion that you would think, because Silicon like a big geographical place. It's not just the tech industry. Michael Calore: So, you're saying that this large contingent of humanity is not a monolith? Lauren Goode: Right, exactly. They're all wearing hoodies and Apple watches, but they're not all the same. Michael Calore: Is there any data about what the breakdown of Christians and non-Christians are in Silicon Valley? Lauren Goode: Yeah, that's a good question. And we have to zoom out a little bit, because the most recent data we have from Pew Research looks at religion in California and religion in the San Francisco metro area, but not, quote, unquote, "Silicon Valley specifically." In the San Francisco metro area, 46% of adults identify as Christian, and that's only down slightly from a decade ago. But an increasing number of people say they are religiously unaffiliated. That's at 42% compared with 35% a decade ago. And then in California, broadly, the number of people who identify with other religions, like Judaism and Islam, has largely remained the same over the past decade. So, in short, there are a fair number of Christians in the San Francisco metro area, but I would say the biggest sort of counterforce to that is agnosticism. And Zoe, I want to hear your thoughts on this too, because I know we've had some conversations about the alternative things that people do for self-discovery in Silicon Valley, this idea of like, "Well, I have a practice, like a meditation practice," or, "I have certain rituals that I do." And they find community in different places, but they're not necessarily rooted in religion with a capital R. Zoë Schiffer: Right. Yeah. I do think the kind of psychedelic experimentation, the Burning Man of it all can serve a similar function, giving people a sense of belonging, something outside of themselves that they're engaged with, and all of those things can be really meaningful. Michael Calore: And how do folks like the Stephens and the ACTS 17 crowd feel about these spiritual pursuits that are non-Christian, non-Western spiritual pursuits? Lauren Goode: The sense that I get is that these things are not mutually exclusive. You could go on your shroom trips or your workshops at Esalen, or I don't know, whatever other sort of- Michael Calore: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Lauren Goode: Yeah, we're all going, "Yes. Yes, yes." All of the agnostic practices. And that doesn't exclude you from having a religious practice that is rooted in historical texts or some sort of established God, or has an official church, I think. They're saying, at least initially, "Our arms are open. Anyone can come to these events." I'm willing to bet that of the 200 plus people who were there at the event that I went to, that some of them have probably dabbled in other rituals. Zoë Schiffer: Extracurricular activities. Lauren Goode: That's right. Michael Calore: They've been to the psytrance rave and taken the molly, and talked about their app. Lauren Goode: Sure. And talked about their app. Yeah, exactly. They're still talking about their apps. And I don't even think that the two should necessarily be conflated. It's just that those kinds of hobbies or practices tend to define a certain aspect of Silicon Valley culture, maybe more so than religion has. Zoë Schiffer: I think that that makes sense. There's a saying that I heard a lot in chatting with people who engage in more of the drug-type pursuits, that these substances will get you in the room, but they won't let you stay. So maybe religion lets you stay. Lauren Goode: Oh, that's kind of interesting. So it's like you do a guided ketamine trip and then you tumble down the block to the church in Dolores Park? Zoë Schiffer: Yes, and? Lauren Goode: Yes, and? Michael Calore: Yes, and? Lauren Goode: ACTS 17 doesn't seem to be pushing that away. What Michelle Stephens has said is that she feels like the industry just has too much emphasis on money and power and wealth, and these are my words, that those in a sense are the more powerful drugs, and the more concerning drugs. And that religion provides a different kind of avenue to success, and that success is that relationship you have with God. Zoë Schiffer: Alex Karp also mentioned something similar. He has said that, "You just need enough money to not have to think about money, and that the other pursuits are more important." Lauren Goode: Ah, right. So I'm assuming that means Alex Karp just has just enough money and he gave the rest of it away? Zoë Schiffer: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Michael Calore: Yeah, probably. Didn't ACTS 17 member, Garry Tan, Tweet about this? Lauren Goode: Yeah, he did last year, and he linked to the article that was written in The San Francisco Standard. He said, "LSD and shrooms won't fill the God-shaped hole in your heart. Guess what might?" I'm guessing the answer is God, right? Do I get an ice cream cone for guessing correctly? Right. Do people still do LSD? Michael Calore: Yes, people still do it. Zoë Schiffer: Yep. Lauren Goode: This is this how uncool I am, Uncanny Valley listeners. Michael Calore: There's nothing cool about drugs, Lauren. Lauren Goode: Okay. That's right, we were raised in the D.A.R.E. era. Michael Calore: Let's take another break and we'll come right back. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. We talked earlier about the good quest versus the bad quest. It sounds like a sitcom, but it's central to the philosophy of how the Christians that we're talking about in Silicon Valley approach the work that they do. What is a good quest? Lauren Goode: Yeah, and this borrows from gaming culture too. When I think about a good quest, I think about playing Legends of Zelda or something. Michael Calore: Is it like a side quest is a bad quest? Lauren Goode: Yeah, right, exactly. You can get sidetracked by a side quest, I think is the idea. But Trae Stephens had written an article, along with an entrepreneur named Markie Wagner. It was published in 2022, and it created this framework for thinking about what you do for a living and whether or not it falls, and where it falls on the matrix. Is it a good quest? Is it a bad quest? Is it something that feels good but is really easy to do and isn't solving a big problem? Is it something that's hard but feels bad? Or is it something's hard to do but feels good because you're fixing big problems? And the way that Trae has described it, and also some of the peers in his network who we've talked about on this show, is that if you're just making another photo app, you're a brilliant engineer, but you're using your mind space and your talents to build a photo app, it's probably not a good quest. For whatever reason, he also took aim a few times at McKinsey Consultants during the event I went to. He just said, "They just sort of show up on your college campus and they pick some of the best and brightest minds and say, 'Go be a management consultant.'" And he considers that not to be a good quest. So Trae said during the ACTS 17 talk that I went to, "I'm literally an arms dealer." And when he said that, the crowd sort of laughed, and I think people were surprised by how candid he was about that, but that's what his company makes. They make weapons. And he said, "It's an unusual calling. It's not a calling for everyone, but it is my calling." And so he was sort of applying the language or the vernacular of a vocation to what he does for a living, and then sort of putting that on the good quest part of the matrix, because it's a hard thing to do and he's solving a hard problem. But he is also mentioned things like manufacturing and advances in medicine, and that there are other things that you can use your talents for that are considered good quests. Michael Calore: Right. If we boil down the idea of a good quest to something that is good for humanity and something that promotes Christian values, I think it's difficult for a lot of people to square the fact that you're doing good in the world with the fact that you're building systems of killing people. Right? Zoë Schiffer: But I think that's why the nationalism part is so important to this, because they're not saying, "We should be doing good for humanity." It seems like a lot of these people are saying, "We should be doing good for the United States of America." Lauren Goode: Right. My understanding, based on reading Alex Carp's very long essay in The Atlantic, is that he really believes we should be building up America as a technological republic. And I think that's what you're saying, Zoe. Zoë Schiffer: Yeah. Which again, to Mike's point, it might seem like these things aren't in conflict unless you have that nationalistic angle woven in. Lauren Goode: It's interesting, because when you think about the teachings of the Bible, you think about helping those less fortunate than you, helping the poor, welcoming people in, being of service. So you don't necessarily think about weapons. It may seem like it's incongruous with being of service. And I think that that is a very valid point to raise. My understanding of it, which is not a justification or an explanation for it, is in listening to Trae Steven's talk at the Act 17 event, it seemed like his interpretation of building God's kingdom on Earth was pretty literal. It was, "What has God asked us to do? Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. We will build the kingdom." And that means literally building. It makes me think of the Silicon Valley ethos around, "It's time to build. Build, build, build. Make stuff." Michael Calore: Yeah. And for a lot of people who are not religious, what is central to that ethos is that, "We're doing good in the world." And maybe for a Christian with that ethos, it's centered around, "We're doing God's will by building these things, by making this our society." So, in other words, you can justify a lot of things by saying, "Well, it's okay because we have God on our side," to paraphrase Bob Dylan. That sounds like a slippery slope to me. Lauren Goode: I think you are absolutely right. And Trae Stephens himself said, "I think people can convince themselves that anything is a good quest." He was referring to someone who came up to him and was pitching an NFT marketplace. That, to him, was not a good quest. But yeah, I think that's the thing. You can convince yourself that what you're doing is good, even if you're harming people in some way. And just to pull it back even further, what is one of the things we've heard from Silicon Valley entrepreneurs for decades now? What are they going to do with the thing they're building? They're going to, what, change the world? Michael Calore: Change the world. Lauren Goode: Right. And they have, they continue to. It's not always in a good way, but who makes the moral judgment of what's good? Michael Calore: Justice has to play into it. People can feel like if they're delivering justice in the world, then that's a good thing. And maybe that's why weapons systems feel like a good quest, because it's like, "Well, there's good guys and there's bad guys, and it's pretty cut and dry. And if we can help eradicate the bad guys, then that's a good quest." So that, in a sense, is making the world a better place for people of that mindset. But then again, who is to decide who is the good guy, who is the bad guy? Also, I will just point out at this moment that I think Jesus Christ taught us that the best way to solve conflict is through nonviolent means. So, if Jesus was a pacifist, how would he feel about all of this? I don't know. I'm not Jesus. Lauren Goode: Sounds like you're ready to go back to church, Mike. Michael Calore: Maybe. I have a lot of questions. Maybe that's what church is all about. It's about answering these questions. Lauren Goode: Zoe, how does this stand out to you when you consider this in the context of your faith? Zoë Schiffer: I think it's really interesting. I don't know how. I'm still thinking through the Alex Karp arguments on all of this, but I think just from a basic standpoint, that having religion as one component of a larger kind of life can be really beneficial for people. And I think there is a problem with a lot of people feeling like their lives are meaningless, and so to the extent that this can help imbue their lives with meaning. Or prompt them to stop doing a job that feels soul-sucking and find something that is more of a good quest, something that's more meaningful, I think that's great. All of these things can be used in negative or positive ways, although that's clearly a judgment call, but I think there's potential for good. Lauren Goode: It'll be interesting to see whether or not this is something that really takes root in Silicon Valley, aside from hearing directly from pastors or people in the community, "Oh, it seems like there's growing interest, attendance is rising." Those are all certainly strong signs. But Silicon Valley has been going through this big shift over the past few years, politically, ideologically, artificially, if you want to throw artificial intelligence into that too. And I'm just so curious to see where religion dovetails with that. Michael Calore: Yeah. Yeah, and building God's kingdom, what that looks like- Lauren Goode: What that looks like. Michael Calore: ... for here. Lauren Goode: Is that AI? I mean, really. Michael Calore: Is our next God AI? Lauren Goode: I don't think she is. Zoë Schiffer: I see what you did there. I liked it. Lauren Goode: Thank you. Michael Calore: Thanks for listening to Uncanny Valley. If you like what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you'd like to get in touch with us about any questions, comments, show suggestions, or suggestions for which churches we should attend, write to us at uncannyvalley@ Today's show is produced by Kyana Moghadam, Amar Lal at Macrosound mixed this episode. Paige Oamek fact checked this episode. Jordan Bell is our Executive Producer, Katie Drummond is WIRED's Global Editorial Director, and Chris Bannon is the Head of Global Audio.
