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USA Today
11 hours ago
- Politics
- USA Today
Transgender athletes in college sports are rare, despite outsized political attention
On Sunday's episode of The Excerpt podcast: The issue of transgender college athletes continues to animate Republicans as the Trump administration doubles down on their attacks on trans rights. USA TODAY Education Reporter Zach Schermele joins The Excerpt to discuss these issues from a political and an education perspective. Hit play on the player below to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript beneath it. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text. Podcasts: True crime, in-depth interviews and more USA TODAY podcasts right here Taylor Wilson: Hello and welcome to USA TODAY's the Excerpt. I'm Taylor Wilson. Today is Sunday, July 27th, 2025. In July, the University of Pennsylvania agreed to prohibit transgender athletes from competing in women's sports and stripped the record of former swimmer Leah Thomas as part of an agreement with the Department of Education. It was the same month that the Supreme Court announced it will review Idaho's and West Virginia State bans on transgender athletes joining female sports teams. The move marks the country's latest grappling with issues surrounding transgender athletes. More than half the states have now passed laws preventing transgender athletes from competing on schools female sports teams, saying they're trying to prevent competitive advantages. Where does the American public stand on these issues, and what are the larger implications and influences playing into this conversation? To help us make sense of this moment, I'm now joined by USA TODAY education reporter, Zach Schermele. Zach, thanks for joining me. Zach Schermele: Hey, Taylor. Thanks for having me. Taylor Wilson: So let's just go back to that news surrounding Leah Thomas. That's the former UPenn swimmer who became the first transgender woman to win an NCAA swimming competition in Division 1 back in 2022. Zach, what did the university agree to here with the Department of Education? Zach Schermele: So this was a pretty significant agreement on the part of the University of Pennsylvania. That's an Ivy League school in Philadelphia with the Federal Education Department, and in particular with their office for Civil Rights, which handles curbing discrimination for students and teachers in any educational program that receives federal funding. So there were a couple of pretty significant concessions that the university agreed to with the department, first, that they would bar trans athletes from participating at all in women's sports at the University of Pennsylvania, a notable concession because there weren't any transgender athletes that were competing in women's sports at Penn at the time. They also said that they would comply with President Donald Trump's executive order that he issued that tried to ban trans athletes from competing in women's sports as well. And also, they sent personalized letters of apology to any female swimmers who had competed alongside Leah Thomas at the time of that NCAA competition that you were referring to there, Taylor. Taylor Wilson: Well, Zach, these moves were in response to the federal government suspending roughly $175 million in contracts to Penn back in March, alleging that university had violated Title IX. UPenn is also not the only university dealing with these allegations. Zach. Talk us through the government's arguments here. Zach Schermele: So they're far from the only university that has grappled with some of these threats and implementation of those threats with respect to federal funding, in particular for research projects being pulled from universities across the country, largely on the grounds of civil rights laws being violated. So the government was arguing, really that it's fundamentally wrong for trans women to be competing in female sports at the collegiate level. They say that the federal government has a role in protecting cisgender women in athletic environments, and that was an idea and an argument that played a big role in the resolution of this case here. They also argued that trans women have an unfair advantage over cisgender women in athletics. And that is an argument that comes very frequently from conservative critics of trans rights just in general, and we're seeing it more consistently from the education department under the Trump administration. Taylor Wilson: Well, Zach, what does this Leah Thomas news mean for younger trans athletes, say in middle or high school coming up? Zach Schermele: It's really significant. But I think Taylor, what you could chalk it up to is that it is the latest major indication that athletics really are not welcoming anymore in school environments to the extent they ever were for young trans people. And it also shows how a powerful university that ostensibly younger athletes would want to aspire to, competing with or against can act in the face of some pretty considerable pressure from the federal government. Todd Wolfson, who was the president of the American Association of University Professors, when I was talking to him about the Penn case in particular a little while ago, he said, "Universities can't sell out trans people to satisfy ideological demands." And I think that that is a message that if you're a young person, a young trans athlete, potentially looking at what has just gone on Penn's campus, that's your takeaway. Taylor Wilson: Well, what recourse does a trans athlete have beyond the courts? What does a sixteen-year-old or twenty-year-old trans athlete who wants to compete at a high level do right now, Zach? Zach Schermele: There are several avenues that a student could potentially take if they were concerned about being excluded from a program or an athletic team on a school campus that receives federal funding. So they could file a discrimination complaint with the Federal Education Department, in particular with that office for civil rights that was in charge of resolving the case at Penn. The problem of course, though, is that the Trump administration interprets federal civil rights laws pretty distinctly from how the Biden administration in particular was interpreting those same laws. So under President Joe Biden, the education department, I think would've had a lot more alacrity to try and resolve a case like that, to negotiate with schools, K-12 schools and colleges and universities to ensure that those programs were providing adequate services that weren't discriminatory towards trans students. They, in fact, interpreted Title IX, that landmark sex discrimination law as including protections on the basis of gender identity and sexual orientation. The Biden administration actually interestingly, because of how politicized this whole issue has become, was going to issue some regulations in particular on the trans athlete component of protecting younger trans people in sports and delayed it until potentially after the election. And I think that just gives you an indication of how fraught this issue has become for schools and even for democratic politicians. But one could argue that trying to file a complaint with the education department, with the Civil Rights Office, especially in this new political environment, would be a lot more challenging than even just a couple of years ago. Taylor Wilson: Nearly half of Americans don't want politicians focusing on issues affecting trans people, according to a poll from the non-profit, the 19th News this past April. What are you hearing from the NCAA on the issue of trans athletes, Zach? Zach Schermele: So the NCAA was quick to issue some new guidance after the President's executive order in February. The NCAA, which by the way, we should mention, is an organization that is made up of more than a thousand colleges and universities in all 50 states. They have roughly half a million student athletes, and the organization said that they were going to be compliant with the President's executive order and not allow trans women to compete in women's sports. Charlie Baker, who's the president of the NCAA, actually said at the time that to that end, the order provided a, "Clear national standard." There wasn't a gray area that some of the lack of finalized regulation and civil rights precedent previously had left the NCAA and schools and other organizations, I think in a bit of uncertainty with respect to what their obligations were, in order to comply with federal civil rights laws. But it's important, Taylor, to remember that we're talking about really only a handful of that half a million student athletes that are at NCAA schools. Charlie Baker told a senate panel in December of last year that there were only fewer than 10 trans athletes participating in sports at the collegiate level at that time. Taylor Wilson: Well, Zach, we've touched on aspects of the political level here, but the issue of transgender athletes reverberated clearly throughout the 2024 presidential race, with Republican voters celebrating Trump's stance against transgender athletes competing in women's sports. On the other hand, Democrats embrace of transgender rights did not resonate with voters. A June Reuters Ipsos poll found the Democrats feel the party isn't focusing enough on economic issues, and is overemphasizing issues like transgender rights. Zach, are Democrats politically vulnerable here? Is there the possibility they might drop their support of trans rights altogether? Zach Schermele: I think it's important to level set a little bit here too, Taylor, and just bring us back to the idea that Republicans in particular are pretty concerned about an issue that's not super relevant to a lot of school campuses. So only about 1.4% of trans teenagers, according to federal survey data, participate in sports. And then some other studies show, a 2017 study in particular of about 17,000 young people found that only about one in 10 trans boys said that they played sports. And the statistic is roughly the same for transgender girls. And I think it's important to keep in mind those statistics when we're having these discussions. But regardless, trans rights and the civil rights of transgender people have become a very animating issue for Republicans, and Democrats are taking notice of that. Seth Moulton, who is a Democratic congressman from Massachusetts, was lambasted by a lot of his colleagues on the Democratic side right after the presidential election when he essentially came out saying that he was more in line with some Republican thinking on the particular issue of trans athletes in sports, not necessarily civil rights for transgender people, but whether young trans athletes should be able to play sports. And then Gavin Newsom, who's the Democratic governor of California, said some pretty similar things recently as well. And so you're seeing that bifurcation among the Democrats in a really dramatic, I think, way if you're a trans young person and seeing that support start to decline. Taylor Wilson: Well, let's pivot to another transgender issue that could impact trans athletes, and that's medical care. Back in June, the Supreme Court upheld a state challenge brought by Tennessee families that made gender-affirming care of minors illegal. According to human rights campaign, 27 states now have bans on such care. Zach, what are you hearing on this front? Are families relocating to states where there is not a ban in place? Zach Schermele: Yeah, Taylor, I remember having a conversation in 2022 with a family in Florida where there was a gender-affirming care ban for minors there. And the mother at the time was sitting in on a board of health meeting that the state of Florida had just conducted. And I remember talking to her about how her trans child had spent, I think it was the better part of a year, trying to get access to things like puberty blockers and hormone therapy. There are a lot of hoops that families with trans kids have to jump through in order to get access to gender-affirming care. I think, just based on some of the rhetoric that sometimes can fly around the subject, you would think that it would be really easy to get access to these types of treatments. But in many states, even in pretty liberal ones, it can take a long time to actually get that care that folks need. There is this cosmic divide between liberal states and more conservative states, where if you're a transgender person, you're probably getting more protection in a place like California, New York, Massachusetts, especially if you're a trans young person enrolled in a program that receives federal education funding versus some of the more red states, places like Montana, Idaho, the Dakotas. And that is a consideration that I know a lot of families who have roots there are thinking about pretty deeply. Taylor Wilson: Well, we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about recent news that the Supreme Court has given, the green light to the Trump administration to dismantle the Department of Education altogether, taking legions of Civil Rights attorneys out of action. There was a carve out for civil rights attorneys, but many of them are still out of action. These are people who transgender minors and their families might've turned to protect their rights in schools. What concerns you the most here? Zach Schermele: I think that the Education Department's Office for Civil Rights is in a place that it has, quite frankly, never been before. And the argument from some conservatives, because there are two camps of conservatives who are thinking about what's happening at the Federal Education Department right now. There's one camp that wants to see the department entirely dismantled, they want it to completely go away. And then there's another camp that sees it potentially as a tool, not really unlike what it's become over the course of the past couple of months, as the president has started taking more actions, and has let go of this idea of being able to entirely do away with the department. Education Secretary Linda McMahon has acknowledged repeatedly that she knows it would take help from Congress, particularly help from Democrats in Congress in order to make the education department entirely go away. So there are some who want to see the Education Department frankly continue to do what it's been doing, which is to open up more targeted civil rights investigations, investigations that are more concerned, not so much with protecting students from marginalized populations, LGBTQ+ students in particular, but would rather see allegations of reverse discrimination, students who are concerned about having to be involved in LGBTQ sensitivity trainings, things like that. There are lots of folks on the conservative side who want to see the education department continue to investigate schools that are trying to be more inclusive in that way. This is the assault on diversity, equity, and inclusion that the President has been really adamant about making a centerpiece of his posture towards civil rights laws. But it is the truth to say that there are a lot of civil rights attorneys that spent many years at the education department who now are no longer employed there, and we could potentially see an uptick in discrimination complaints at schools across the country because of it. Taylor Wilson: All right, we'll be on the lookout for when the Supreme Court will hear arguments on the two transgender athletes cases. Zach Schermele is an education reporter with USA TODAY. Thank you, Zach. Zach Schermele: Thanks, Taylor. Taylor Wilson: Thanks to our senior producers Shannon Rae Green and Kaely Monahan for their production assistance. Our executive producer is Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to podcasts at Thanks for listening. I'm Taylor Wilson, and I'll be back tomorrow morning with another episode of The Excerpt.
USA Today
a day ago
- Business
- USA Today
US and EU reach trade deal
On Monday's episode of The Excerpt podcast: The U.S. has reached a trade deal with the European Union after President Donald Trump's weekend trip to Scotland. USA TODAY National Correspondent Chris Kenning talks about his reporting on farmers facing a fork amid the immigration crackdown. Israel pauses some military action in Gaza amid ongoing starvation concerns. USA TODAY National Correspondent Deborah Barfield Berry discusses a bipartisan push for a new women's history museum. Hit play on the player below to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript beneath it. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text. Podcasts: True crime, in-depth interviews and more USA TODAY podcasts right here Taylor Wilson: Good morning. I'm Taylor Wilson, and today is Monday, July 28th, 2025. This is USA TODAY's The Excerpt. Today taking a look at the US Trade deal with the EU plus how immigration raids are impacting farms and their workers. And lawmakers across the aisle want a new Women's History museum. ♦ US has reached a trade deal with the European Union. President Donald Trump announced the deal yesterday, days ahead of a self-imposed August 1st deadline. He met with the European Commission's president, Ursula von der Leyen during his trip to Scotland over the weekend where the pair discussed terms and came to an agreement. The deal includes a 15% tariff on most European exports to the United States, similar to agreements struck recently between Trump and other major trading partners, including Japan. The levy is higher than the 10% rate sought by Europeans, but a reduction from the 30% Trump threatened to impose earlier in July. The agreement also includes $600 billion in EU investments in the US and the purchase of $750 billion worth of US energy. ♦ President Trump's immigration raids are hitting farms particularly hard. I spoke with USA TODAY national correspondent Chris Kenning for more. Chris, thanks for joining me. Chris Kenning: Thank you for having me. Taylor Wilson: So Chris, what are we hearing and seeing at farms around the country in this immigration moment? Chris Kenning: Across the country, we've seen these immigration raids, really broiling farms in farming communities, and there have been cases of worker shortages for at least temporarily and farmers who are worried about getting their crops picked. Early this month, we saw raids in California in the Central Valley areas that saw hundreds of folks detained and ranchers and growers and places like Texas and Vermont have also reported times when people weren't showing up for work. And so some farm groups are saying farmers are holding their breath, trying to keep things afloat, not knowing if their folks will show up or just be too afraid that the raid will happen, either the farm or in the city or town where they work. Right now, in places like the San Joaquin Valley, some folks are saying that labor is kind of holding steady, but everyone's on edge, really not knowing what's going to happen. Taylor Wilson: Well, Chris, how many people on US farms actually lack legal status? And just help us understand really why foreign born workers are so critical to farmers. Chris Kenning: There's about 2.6 million people working on farms in the United States, roughly about 42% of them are thought to lack legal status according to the Department of Agriculture. That's actually down from 55% in 2001. So it's kind of declined some, but it's still a pretty sizable number. And if you talk to farmers, they'll say the reason's pretty simple. Congress has not been able to really address comprehensive immigration reform that could find ways to create legal pathways for workers that are here or provide more visas for guest worker programs. And they say the idea that American-born residents will take these jobs is just not realistic. Few people will apply for them, even fewer will stick with it. It's very physically demanding and tough work and so the bodies aren't out there. All these issues come together and then farmers have long dealt with this stuff and now the presence of these ICE immigration forces everywhere has really exacerbated the problem. Taylor Wilson: Chris, what did you hear from some of these migrant workers themselves about how they're facing this moment and what I'd imagine really is just an incredibly anxious time for them? Chris Kenning: So there's a lot of fear, a lot of consternation. People aren't going out as much. People are staying home, but the United Farm Workers officials that I talked to said people are going back just because they have to feed their families, maybe working fewer days, maybe staying in when they're not working. I talked to one gentleman named Gabriel who's a 42-year-old man. He's from Mexico. He works in California's Central Valley. He's worked eggplant, pumpkins, different crops, getting up before A.M. working a full day for about 16,50 an hour. And he said to the majority of his fellow workers are without papers. But while they're still working now, some are considering going home. And even folks who are here on H-2A visas are said to be considering not applying or just wondering if it's just getting too dangerous. Taylor Wilson: You mentioned the H-2A visa, Chris, can you just talk us through what the visa programs and legal paths actually look like for farm workers and what do advocates want to see change in this space? Chris Kenning: The H-2A program is a program that allows agricultural employers to hire foreign workers to fill temporary or seasonal jobs when there's not enough qualified domestic workers. Right now, folks on those visas represent about 13% of the nation's farm workers. A number that's grown over the years. A lot of farmers have issues with it because it is very bureaucratic. It's expensive because farmers have to provide housing and they have to adhere to pay wage premiums, which is meant to keep those workers from pushing down wages for U.S. residents who do similar jobs. Farm worker advocates say it has problems too because it's linked to a certain employer. So a lot of times workers are stuck there and maybe more vulnerable to wage or housing abuses. That's one that people are calling for changes to perhaps to streamline it or make some changes that would allow for more folks to come in on these types of visas. Taylor Wilson: You touched on the Trump administration earlier, Chris. Where does the administration stand when it comes to farms specifically? And is there any sense that they understand some of the realities on American farms that you've outlined in this piece? Chris Kenning: The Trump administration in June said it was going to suspend farm enforcement and it reversed that. But Trump has cited the importance of farm labor several times, and they've talked about they're looking to make some kinds of changes. It's not clear exactly what those would look like. There's a bill in Congress that would create, among many things, would create a legal pathway for long-time workers, which is what a lot of both farmers and farm workers would like to see, rather than just having it apply to people who are coming for the first time. There's also been discussions by the agriculture secretary to make the H-2A program more efficient. We'll have to see what comes out of that. House Speaker Mike Johnson has told other media that larger immigration overhauls in Congress could face an uphill battle, so we'll have to keep an eye on that. Taylor Wilson: All right. Chris Kenning is a national correspondent for USA TODAY. Folks can find this full story with a link in today's show notes. Thank you, Chris. Chris Kenning: Thank you so much. ♦ Taylor Wilson: Israel will pause military action for hours each day in parts of Gaza and increase aid drops in the enclave as the country continues to face international pressure over reports and images of starving Palestinians. Aid groups have criticized Israeli leaders for months over the growing humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The country cut off supplies to the region at the start of March before reopening aid lines with new restrictions in May. In recent weeks, more than 800 people have been killed while trying to reach food according to the United Nations, mostly in shootings by Israeli soldiers posted near controversial Gaza Humanitarian Foundation distribution centers, which we discussed here on the show last week. Meanwhile, the World Food Program says a third of the population in Gaza is not eating for days. Beginning today, Israel will pause military action in a humanitarian area along the coast of Gaza for 10 hours at a time, from 10 A.M. to 8:00 P.M. local time each day. You can read more with a link in today's show notes. ♦ Lawmakers are renewing a bipartisan effort to build a Women's History Museum in Washington. D.C. I discussed with USA TODAY national correspondent Deborah Barfield Berry. Deborah, thanks for joining me. Deborah Barfield Berry: Thank you for having me. Taylor Wilson: So what are these calls for a new Women's History Museum? What would this entail? Deborah Barfield Berry: Actually, it's been an effort that's been going for years and years, but they've always renewed it. And this time, a bipartisan group of women from the Democratic Women's Caucus and the Republican Women's Caucus are actually urging one of the House committees to put some money behind it to actually fund the project. Taylor Wilson: Specifically who are the lawmakers involved here and just how rare is it Deborah, to see a bipartisan push like this? Deborah Barfield Berry: Well, there's several lawmakers. There are some Republicans, including Kat Cammack, who's one of the co-chairs of Republican Women's Caucus and also Hillary Scholten and others who are part of the Democratic Women's Caucus. They got together and decided they wanted to push for this effort. In terms of rare, these days, as you know, there's a lot of partisanship on one side or this side of a lot of issues, but this was one of the few issues where women from both sides of the aisle said, we want to push for this together. So they've been doing that in the past, and again, they've continued to do that now. Taylor Wilson: Well, as you mentioned, Deborah, this is not the first we've heard of this. What related bills have we seen over the years and just what led up to this point? Deborah Barfield Berry: As has been the case with many museums, many of the Smithsonian museums, including the National Museum of African-American History and Culture, and the Latino Museum as well, it's a process. So it's not just you vote for the museum and it's a go. There are different parts of it, including number one, establishing a museum, establishing perhaps a commission that will study it and see if there should be a museum. Another bill that has to push for having it on a National Mall. And then of course, you need to get funding. So there are always different pieces to it, and that's the same case here for the Women's Museum. There's been different measures along the way. Some of them passed, some of them haven't. It hasn't come through enough where they can say, we got a museum coming. So the women have pushed again to make sure there was some federal funding for the museum. Taylor Wilson: It makes sense. I mean, what hurdles might this effort still face? Deborah Barfield Berry: Well, part of the challenge this Congress is that there has been a big push, particularly by Republican leaders to cut federal spending. So not just this program, but others are coming up against that. There is also some concern about the pushback from the Trump administration and Republican leaders to push back against diversity initiatives or anything that reflects or they think feel like it reflects that. In many of the cases, it's not just about people of color when they push back on diversity. Also, women and women's issues and women programs, women's museum is all about women. So there's concern about whether that too would fall into that category where they're pushing back. Taylor Wilson: Okay, and what's next for this conversation? Deborah Barfield Berry: It was earlier this month that they pushed for or sent this letter to the House Appropriations Committee, but there's also some talk or either some hope from both sides that they could have a meeting with President Trump to push for this, because along the way he's expressed some interest in supporting it, but he's also been part of the pushback against diversity. As for what's next, some of the women lawmakers are not only pushing their colleagues to support funding for the bill, but they're also hoping that they can get President Trump to step in and be a little more vocal about it and maybe use some of his clout to sway Republican leaders to back the funding. Representative Hillary Scholten from Michigan, who also happens to be a Democrat, says she welcomes the audience with President Trump so she can make sure he knows that it's important to support this museum and that if there's any time to do it, now is the right time. Taylor Wilson: We'll see what happens. Deborah Barfield Berry is a National Correspondent with USA TODAY. Thanks, Deborah. Deborah Barfield Berry: Thank you. ♦ Taylor Wilson: Thanks for listening to The Excerpt. You can get the podcast wherever you get your pods, and if you're on a smart speaker, just ask for The Excerpt. I'm Taylor Wilson, I'll be back tomorrow with more of The Excerpt from USA TODAY.
USA Today
4 days ago
- Politics
- USA Today
Israel, US recall teams from Gaza truce talks; violence near aid distribution continues
On Friday's episode of The Excerpt podcast: Israel and the United States recalled their delegations from Gaza ceasefire talks for consultations Thursday. Plus, hundreds of people have been killed in recent weeks trying to reach food, mostly in mass shootings by Israeli soldiers posted near Gaza Humanitarian Foundation distribution centers. USA TODAY Senior National Columnist for Health and Wellness Laura Trujillo takes a closer look at President Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein's relationship over the years. Two GOP senators call for a special counsel to probe former President Barack Obama over the 2016 Trump-Russia investigation. USA TODAY White House Correspondent Joey Garrison discusses a new executive order that makes it easier for cities and states to remove homeless people from the streets. Hulk Hogan has died at 71. Hit play on the player below to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript beneath it. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text. Podcasts: True crime, in-depth interviews and more USA TODAY podcasts right here Taylor Wilson: Good morning. I'm Taylor Wilson, and today is Friday, July 25th, 2025. This is USA TODAY's The Excerpt. Today controversy over US humanitarian aid deliveries and Gaza as hunger concerns grow. Plus we discuss an executive order making it easier to remove homeless people from the streets. And we remember Hulk Hogan. ♦ Israel and the US recalled their delegations from Gaza ceasefire talks for consultations yesterday with US envoy, Steve Witkoff accusing Hamas of failing to act in good faith in the talks. It marked the latest setback in efforts to secure a deal that would bring a ceasefire to Gaza and secure the release of Israeli hostages held by Hamas. Earlier this week, more than 100 largely aid and rights groups called for governments to take action as hunger spreads in Gaza. More than 800 people have been killed in recent weeks trying to reach food, mostly in mass shootings by Israeli soldiers posted near Gaza Humanitarian Foundation distribution centers. Women going to pick up aid for their families yesterday said US contractors organizing distribution asked them to come to pick up goods and then fired tear gas and pepper spray at them. Asked for comment, a spokesperson for the aid organization, the GHF said a limited amount of pepper spray was used to prevent civilian injury due to overcrowding. GHF, a US and Israeli-backed organization began distributing food packages in Gaza at the end of May. The UN has called the GHF's model unsafe and a breach of humanitarian in impartiality standards, which GHF denies. Executive Director of the World Peace Foundation at Tufts University Alex de Waal outlined some of the criticisms speaking to Reuters. Alex de Waal: The ration that they are providing is less than the humanitarian ration provided by the United Nations. None of the specialized services such as supplementary therapeutic feeding for malnourished children are a part of this package. These are all the reasons why the United Nations and most professional humanitarians are very critical of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation scheme. Taylor Wilson: You can read more on ♦ Deputy US Attorney General Todd Blanche said he met Jeffrey Epstein's longtime associate, Ghislaine Maxwell, yesterday and will meet her again today. She's serving a twenty-year sentence at a federal prison in Tallahassee after a jury convicted her of sex trafficking in 2021. The meetings come as President Donald Trump and his administration face continued pressure to release additional information about the Justice Department's investigation into Epstein. But what do we know about Trump and Epstein's relationship over the years? I spoke with USA TODAY Senior National Columnist for Health and Wellness Laura Trujillo for more. Laura, thank you so much for joining me on this. Laura Trujillo: Thanks for inviting me. Taylor Wilson: Let's just start here. How did the Trump, Epstein relationship originate? Laura Trujillo: From what we understand they really became friends around 1990. This is when Epstein bought a mansion about two miles from Trump's Mar-a-Lago, which he just bought about five years before. And they both, if you think about this, were really rich guys from New York, both really doing well and two miles isn't that far apart when you're two rich guys with mansions, you end up in the same social circles. We really don't know if they were best friends or something like that. We know they ran with the same group. We know they were at dinner parties together and at different events, but we're really not sure how close they were. Taylor Wilson: You touched on this, Laura, but in terms of where they would actually hang out, we know South Florida is involved here, New York City. Was this really about Mar-a-Lago? Was it about the infamous Epstein Island? Where would they run into each other? Laura Trujillo: It seems to be both New York and Florida, mostly at Mar-a-Lago. And that's a lot of photos that we have from events at Mar-a-Lago, mostly with models, with cheerleaders, parties, that type of thing. And in New York, we don't know at this point if there were trips to Epstein Island that has not shown up yet, but we also don't have all of the files. We know that Trump was on Epstein's plane between Florida and New York, but that doesn't tell us where he went. Taylor Wilson: Laura, I know you touched on this in your piece, how are modeling agencies and beauty pageants really a part of this story and their relationship? Laura Trujillo: Mostly Trump has talked about enjoying spending time with women and young women. He really didn't make a secret of this. Epstein lived a little bit quieter than Trump. I think we know that having heard Trump, he likes to talk about it. He bragged about getting access to young women on some interviews we've heard with Howard Stern. They both were involved with modeling agencies, so Epstein invested in one. We also later learned that Epstein used scouting models as a way to procure underage girls. With Trump, he started an agency in 1999. It had a lot of legacy models, and in fact, Melania was a model there before he met her. And it did have some teen models as well. Trump also, as we know, bought beauty pageants. He owned the Miss Universe Pageant, Miss Teen Pageant, and he seemed to really like to talk about that. And we've got stories of him going into the dressing rooms at these pageants and sort of making a joke about it. But I think sometimes when you hear quotes decades later, they may ring true in a different way. Taylor Wilson: All right, so Laura, what finally led to their falling out? Laura Trujillo: We think, which this is definitely a rich guy thing, they both wanted to buy the same mansion in Palm Beach, and it turned out that Trump outbid Epstein for it. And when he outbid him, it was for $41 million. And then Trump turned around and flipped it for 95 million a few years later to a Russian billionaire. And so that's one of the things people talk about. Another is that other reports say that Epstein and Trump broke up after Ghislaine Maxwell solicited the daughter of a Mar-a-Lago member. And the father complained to Trump, and that's when Trump said he kicked Epstein out of Mar-a-Lago for being a creep, so we don't know exactly what happened, but we know that those were two things that have come up. We do know that Epstein was at Trump's wedding in 2005, but that's really the last time they've been linked. Taylor Wilson: All right, so how has Trump addressed Epstein since taking the Oval Office? Is there any difference this term also versus Trump's first term? Laura Trujillo: I have, in 2019, Trump was saying he wasn't a fan of Epstein. And at that point he also was alleging that Bill Clinton was connected to Epstein's death, so there was a real call at that time from Trump to learn more about the Epstein client list and to find out if there was this wider child abuse conspiracy. Moving forward into this term and this week, we've seen so much about Epstein just swirling around the President with the MAGA movement promising all of these revelations and Trump now seeming to say he's fine with these files being released, but we've got Republicans pushing back and so it's going to be interesting to see what happens. Taylor Wilson: Lots of developments still to come. Laura Trujillo is a senior national columnist covering health and wellness for USA TODAY. Thanks, Laura. Laura Trujillo: Thank you. ♦ Taylor Wilson: Two Republican senators are calling for the Justice Department to appoint a special counsel to investigate whether former President Barack Obama and his staff were involved in an effort to undermine Donald Trump's 2016 presidential campaign. The push by Senators Lindsey Graham and John Cornyn comes after national intelligence director, Tulsi Gabbard, in a press briefing earlier this week, alleged she had evidence the Obama administration promoted a contrived narrative that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Trump, arguing that it was not true. Russia did attempt to interfere in the 2016 presidential election in favor of Trump, but according to former special counsel Robert Mueller's 2019 final report and a 2020 bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee assessment. Trump has long said the investigations into his first White House campaign and its connections with Russia are a hoax. ♦ President Trump yesterday took executive action, making it easier for cities and states to remove homeless people from the streets. I spoke with USA TODAY White House correspondent Joey Garrison to learn more. Thanks for joining me, Joey. Joey Garrison: Hey, thanks for having me on. Taylor Wilson: Joey, what will this executive order do about homelessness? Joey Garrison: President Trump took executive action on Thursday signing an order that really makes it easier for cities and states really encourages them to remove homeless people from the streets and from encampments and move them over to rehabilitation and treatment centers. This is done in a couple of ways. First of all, Trump is directing his attorney general, Pam Bondi, to challenge judicial precedents both at the federal and state levels, try to reverse those precedents and consent decrees that currently limit the ability of local and state governments to remove homeless people from the streets. The order also sets forth, though this part is a little unclear, redirecting federal funds to these centers where Trump wants to move homeless people to. And it's not clear exactly how much money will be allocated for this or from where that money is going to be coming from. And also, he's ordered several federal agencies, including HHS and HUD, to start prioritizing federal grants to states and cities that prohibit homeless encampments, so this is a direct incentive for the federal government to crack down on homelessness camps. And so that's the big things that this sweeping homeless EO from Trump seeks to accomplish. Taylor Wilson: And Joey, what did we hear from the White House about why they feel this is necessary in this moment? Joey Garrison: Trump has long talked about the homeless issue in the country. He makes the comments often about Washington DC when he is driving around in the presidential vehicle he looks out the window and sees these homelessness camps. It's always been something that he's talked about. It falls under this law and order umbrella that Trump has long talked about. And there are numbers to back up, the fact that homelessness is at an all-time high in the country right now, HUD does an annual count of the number of people sleeping on the streets on a single night each year. And last January 2024 they counted over 770,000 on a single night. That was a 18% increase over the previous year. And so there is an issue, of course, with the rise of homelessness in many cities. Taylor Wilson: Wow. Trump's action here follows a major Supreme Court move as well earlier this year on homeless camps, Joey, what did they decide? Can we go back to that for a moment? Joey Garrison: Yeah, that's a huge point, what's going on in the background here. In June, just a month ago, the Supreme Court ruled that individuals can be arrested and fined for sleeping and public spaces. They upheld a homelessness ban in a City of Grant Pass, Oregon that prohibits homeless people from sleeping outdoors. In that city they have fines starting at $250 per individual as well as jail time for repeat offenses. You have this opinion, which was a six three conservative majority ruling that essentially upholds cities and states banning homelessness in their communities. And so with that authority upheld by the Supreme Court, you're seeing this real proactive executive order from Trump for cities and states to really go after homelessness in their cities. Taylor Wilson: Well, Joey, as for this week's executive order, are we hearing any pushback? What do critics say about this latest action out of the White House? Joey Garrison: Not surprisingly, a lot of homelessness advocates are condemning this, and I think there's a lot of questions here. First of all, this idea of removing people from where they live on streets to centers. There's a lot of questions whether these rehabilitation centers, whether there's enough beds to house an entire homelessness population. You look at cities on the West Coast like Los Angeles and San Francisco, which have really large numbers of homeless people. I think a lot of homeless advocates say the best way is to address the housing problem right now in this country. The affordability issue with buying a home has never been greater really than it is right now. They argue that this isn't the right way to try to tackle this problem, that it's really rather inhumane to sweep the streets of people who are living there. Taylor Wilson: Joey Garrison covers the White House for USA TODAY. Thank you, Joey. Joey Garrison: Thanks so much. ♦ Taylor Wilson: Hulk Hogan has died. Hogan, whose legal name is Terry Bollea was influential on the rise of wrestling worldwide and WWE's first major star. As WWE became the dominant wrestling company, his stardom grew and he headlined the first nine editions of WrestleMania with his most iconic moment coming at WrestleMania III in 1987. Defending the World Heavyweight Championship against longtime rival, Andre the Giant Hogan picked him up and delivered the body slam heard around the world, and his popularity spread outside the ring with appearances and TV shows and movies. He wasn't without scandal though, he testified admitting he took steroids. And then in 2015 he was caught on tape making racist comments that severely tarnished his popularity and legacy. WWE distanced itself from Hogan in the fallout, but he eventually returned to making appearances with the company in 2018. He made his last appearance for WWE in January. Hulk Hogan was 71. ♦ Thanks for listening to The Excerpt. We're produced by Shannon Rae Green and Kaely Monahan, and our executive producer is Laura Beatty. You can get the podcast wherever you get your pods, and as always, you can email us at podcasts at I'm Taylor Wilson. I'll be back tomorrow with more of The Excerpt from USA TODAY.
Yahoo
4 days ago
- Health
- Yahoo
Insomnia is a global epidemic. How do we fix it?
On a special episode (first released on July 24th) of The Excerpt podcast: The question is: Why do we struggle to sleep? Jennifer Senior, a staff writer at The Atlantic, joins The Excerpt to talk about insomnia and what we can do about solving our sleep issues. Hit play on the player below to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript beneath it. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text. Podcasts: True crime, in-depth interviews and more USA TODAY podcasts right here Taylor Wilson: Hello, I'm Taylor Wilson, and this is a special episode of the Excerpt. According to a report released by the American Medical Association earlier this year, one-third of American adults experience acute insomnia, an inability to fall or stay asleep for several days at a time, but one in 10 adults suffer from chronic insomnia. That's an inability to fall or stay asleep three nights a week for three months or more. The condition has potentially debilitating health impacts, including an increased risk of depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and even car accidents. So the question is, why can't we sleep? Here to help me dig into the issue is Jennifer Senior, a staff writer at The Atlantic who recently went on her own journey to solve her insomnia and who shared her story in the magazine. Thank you for joining me, Jennifer. Jennifer Senior: Thanks for having me. Taylor Wilson: So let's start with I guess a 30,000-foot view of the issue. I know you spoke with a lot of sleep specialists, did a lot of independent research for your piece. Jennifer, what's the big picture here on American's trouble with sleep? Jennifer Senior: Right. Yeah. What's funny, I think the story was a little misnamed. I mean, this is really more story about, well, if you can't sleep, don't feel awful about it because there are so many shaming stories about people, whatever solutions people seek out. I do talk in the beginning about the way that the modern world absolutely conspires against sleep, that it just lays waste to your circadian rhythms. That people work two jobs, 16.4% of us work non-standard hours. If you're a white collar kind of professional, you've got these woodpecker like peck, peck, peck, incursions into your life all night and weekend long from your boss's work sort of never ends. I mean, we're just no longer yoked to the rhythms of the earth anymore. We're just part of this whirl of a wired world. Taylor Wilson: In the course of doing your research, was there something in particular that surprised you most about the problem? Jennifer Senior: I'll tell you what surprised me most, just generally. Whenever I interviewed any expert about this, and it didn't matter what species of expert, they could be an epidemiologist, they could be a neurologist, they could be a psychiatrist, they could be a clinician. Most of them said the same thing. There is a slight misconception that you need eight hours of sleep. There is some data saying this. There is another equally robust data set saying 6.5 to 7.4 is associated with the best health outcomes. Now it's very hard to tell. These studies are observational. They're not randomized. There was all sorts of confounds and problems with this, but this one study in particular had a million people in it. It's been replicated. There are plenty of people who believe this data and people vary. And over the course of a lifetime, your individual sleep capacity could change. In a funny way, that was what surprised me most. Right? This mantra, which is kind of a tyranny, get eight hours or else. Taylor Wilson: Well, you talked Jennifer about the modern world conspiring against us and our sleep, and I guess let's try to outline a few of the possible causes of what you call a public health emergency, right? What can you share with us here on this? Jennifer Senior: About other causes, you mean besides the kind of modernity itself and kids working on... Kids being assigned homework online, kids socializing online. I mean, adolescents are desperate for sleep. They're so hungry for it, and modern high schools and middle schools have them waking up preposterously early when their circadian rhythms are pitched forward. We've got a substantial sandwich generation that's taking care of young kids and their elderly parents. That's going to conspire against it. These are all immutable things. Also, there are elevated levels of anxiety now in our world, and anxiety itself is a huge source of... Or can be a source of sleeplessness, certainly can make one prone. So I mean, those are additional examples I suppose. Taylor Wilson: Let's talk through your story a bit here. When did you first realize that you had an issue with sleep? And walk us through your experience with insomnia. Jennifer Senior: It was 25 years ago and it was a very mysterious onset. I cannot tell you what brought it on to this day. It is a mystery. I had this extremely well-regulated kind of circadian clock. I fell asleep every night at 1:00. I woke up every day at 9:00. I lost my alarm clock. I still woke up at those times. I didn't have to buy a new alarm clock until I had an early flight one day, and yet sometime very close to my 29th birthday when virtually no circumstances in my life had changed one iota, I had a bad night, fell asleep at like 5:00. Thought nothing of it until they became more regular, and then I started doing all-nighters involuntarily, and I felt like I'd been poisoned. And to this day, I don't know what happened, but once that happens, the whole cycle starts to happen, then people suddenly become very afraid of not falling asleep and whatever kicked it off whether it's mysterious or known becomes irrelevant because then what you do is you start getting very agitated and going, oh my God, I'm not sleeping. Oh my God, I'm still not sleeping. Now it's 3:00 in the morning. Now it's 4:00 in the morning. Now it's 5:00 in the morning. Oh my God, I have one more hour, et cetera. Taylor Wilson: Well, you did write in the piece about the many different recommendations that she tried to solve your own sleep issues. What were some of them, Jennifer, and did any of them help? Jennifer Senior: Oh God, I tried all the things. This is before I sought real professional help, but I did all the things. I would took Tylenol PM, which did not work. I did acupuncture, which were lovely, but did not work. I listened to a meditation tape that a friend gave me, did not work. I listened to another one that was for sleep only that did not work. I ran. I always was a runner, but I ran extra, did not work. Gosh, changed my diet. I don't remember. I did all sorts of things. I tried different supplements, Valerian root, all these things. Melatonin, nothing, nothing. Taylor Wilson: You wrote in depth about one therapy that was recommended to you, and that was CBTI. That's cognitive based therapy for insomnia. Jennifer, first, what is this? And second, did you find any success by using this? Jennifer Senior: So cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, as you said, is the gold standard for treating insomnia. It's portable. You can take it with you. It's not like if you leave your sleep meds at home. The main tent pole of it, which is sleep restriction, which I'll get to in a minute, is very hard to do. I found it murder, the kind of easier parts, although they're still in a funny way, kind of paradoxical, are you have to change your thinking around this is the cognitive piece around sleeping and insomnia. You have to decide, okay, I'm not sleeping. So what? Now, this is kind of funny because there's this din surrounding us that says, oh my God, you're not sleeping. You're going to die of a heart attack. You're going to die of an immune disease. You're going to get cancer. All these things, right? You have to set that all aside and decide one more night's sleep that I can't sleep. So what? Right. That's one thing. You have to change your behaviors, deciding that you are going to consistently go to bed at the same time, wake up at the same time, all that, and not use your bed for anything other than just for sleeping and sex. The hard part and the most powerful part that I found it brutal was the part that said you have to restrict your sleep. If you had only five hours of sleep, but you're in bed for nine hours, you have to choose a wake-up time. Let's say it's 7:00 and then you have to go to bed five hours earlier, 2:00 to s7:00. That's all you can give yourself, and you cannot stop with that schedule until you've slept for the majority of those hours. That's very hard for a sleepless person. And then once you've succeeded, all you get to add on is 15 more minutes of sleep, and then you have to sleep the majority of those hours for three nights running. This is always for three nights running, and the idea is to build up a enough sleep pressure to regularize yourself. You basically capitulate to exhaustion and you start to develop a rhythm. I couldn't stick with it. I was so kind of stupid and depressed with sleeplessness by the time I started it that it probably was impractical and I refused to take drugs to help me fall asleep at the exact right hour, which many clinics recommend. If you're going to go to bed and sleep from 2:00 to 7:00, take something at 1:30 so that you fall asleep at two. But I was afraid of being dependent on drugs, and you can really wean yourself if you do it for a limited amount of time. You can wean yourself anytime really, if you're shrewd about it and if you taper. But I think that I would tell people to try it and to try it sooner rather than later, and to be unafraid of doing it in combination with drugs so that the schedule worked. Taylor Wilson: Well, I am happy you brought up drugs. I did want to bring that up just in terms of what experts are saying about their impact. Even just drugs and alcohol kind of writ large, but sleeping pills specifically. What did you find in researching this in terms of drugs and alcohol? Jennifer Senior: Well, there's a real stigma taking sleep medication, and I'm frankly a little sick of it. I'm not sure why this is so very stigmatized. Like, oh, they're drug addict. They're hooked on sleeping pills. It's framed as addiction, and no one says that someone is addicted to their Ozempic, even though a lifestyle change could perhaps obviate the need. No one says that they are addicted... Oh, that person is totally addicted to their blood pressure medication, even though maybe a change in lifestyle would help change that. Or that they're addicted to their statins, So I sort of bristle. And those who prescribe these medicines say like, look, if the benefit outweighs the risk and they're used properly, sometimes the real side effect is just being dependent on these drugs, and there's a difference between dependence and addiction. A surprisingly small number of people who take these drugs regularly, like benzodiazepines, like Ativan and Ambien and Klonopin, all these things, a surprisingly small number, like 7% increase their doses if they take it every night. So that's very small. However, there are cognitive decrements over time... Or not decrements. It can interfere with your memory and it can increase your odds of falling as you get older. And those are, to me, the real persuasive reasons to get off. Taylor Wilson: I want to back up a minute here to talk about something many may not be aware of, and that's that historically, at least in some eras, people used to sleep in two blocks. What do you know about this? How did this function and really why did this kind of sleep pattern work for some folks? Jennifer Senior: Well, it was sort of, I think, natural. It seemed that this is, and it has not been proven everywhere, but there's plenty of both historical evidence and also some in a lab by this wonderful guy named Tom Ware that shows that if you sort of just put someone in a room, 14 hours of darkness, what will happen is that their sleep will naturally split into two. They'll sleep for a phase, wake up for a phase, and then sleep for a phase again. And historically, there's all sorts of evidence that people would sleep for a phase, get up and read for a while, do some quiet things, do light tasks, maybe sing, maybe have sex, and then go back to bed. So there seemed to be two phases, and this was much easier to do when midnight was actually midnight. You were going bed when the sun had set, or just after were you were tethered to the rhythms of the earth as opposed to a wired electricity run world. Taylor Wilson: What is something you wish you knew when you first started on this journey? Jennifer Senior: To get on it earlier and to not be as afraid... Cognitive behavioral therapy is, I think, often done in conjunction with taking something like Klonopin or Ativan or Ambien, and I was so petrified of becoming hooked on them that I didn't... I refused to take them and I couldn't get my sleep to contract as a result of it. My body was so completely dysregulated and confused about it was so all over the place that I really needed something to regularize it and stabilize it, and I flipped out, and I think if anybody goes and tries CBT, I and their practitioner says to them, and I'm going to have to be on their recommendation, do this in concert with a drug, because you really need it. Don't sit there and freak out and think that you can't or shouldn't, because it happens a lot and people freak out a lot. Taylor Wilson: All right, Jennifer Senior, thank you so much for coming on the Excerpt. Jennifer Senior: Thank you so much for having me. Taylor Wilson: Thanks to our senior producers, Shannon Rae Green and Kaylee Monahan for their production assistance. Our executive producer is Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to podcasts@ Thanks for listening. I'm Taylor Wilson. I'll be back tomorrow morning with another episode of USA TODAY's the Excerpt. This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: Insomnia is a global epidemic. How do we fix it? | The Excerpt
USA Today
4 days ago
- Health
- USA Today
Insomnia is a global epidemic. How do we fix it?
On a special episode (first released on July 24th) of The Excerpt podcast: The question is: Why do we struggle to sleep? Jennifer Senior, a staff writer at The Atlantic, joins The Excerpt to talk about insomnia and what we can do about solving our sleep issues. Hit play on the player below to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript beneath it. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text. Podcasts: True crime, in-depth interviews and more USA TODAY podcasts right here Taylor Wilson: Hello, I'm Taylor Wilson, and this is a special episode of the Excerpt. According to a report released by the American Medical Association earlier this year, one-third of American adults experience acute insomnia, an inability to fall or stay asleep for several days at a time, but one in 10 adults suffer from chronic insomnia. That's an inability to fall or stay asleep three nights a week for three months or more. The condition has potentially debilitating health impacts, including an increased risk of depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and even car accidents. So the question is, why can't we sleep? Here to help me dig into the issue is Jennifer Senior, a staff writer at The Atlantic who recently went on her own journey to solve her insomnia and who shared her story in the magazine. Thank you for joining me, Jennifer. Jennifer Senior: Thanks for having me. Taylor Wilson: So let's start with I guess a 30,000-foot view of the issue. I know you spoke with a lot of sleep specialists, did a lot of independent research for your piece. Jennifer, what's the big picture here on American's trouble with sleep? Jennifer Senior: Right. Yeah. What's funny, I think the story was a little misnamed. I mean, this is really more story about, well, if you can't sleep, don't feel awful about it because there are so many shaming stories about people, whatever solutions people seek out. I do talk in the beginning about the way that the modern world absolutely conspires against sleep, that it just lays waste to your circadian rhythms. That people work two jobs, 16.4% of us work non-standard hours. If you're a white collar kind of professional, you've got these woodpecker like peck, peck, peck, incursions into your life all night and weekend long from your boss's work sort of never ends. I mean, we're just no longer yoked to the rhythms of the earth anymore. We're just part of this whirl of a wired world. Taylor Wilson: In the course of doing your research, was there something in particular that surprised you most about the problem? Jennifer Senior: I'll tell you what surprised me most, just generally. Whenever I interviewed any expert about this, and it didn't matter what species of expert, they could be an epidemiologist, they could be a neurologist, they could be a psychiatrist, they could be a clinician. Most of them said the same thing. There is a slight misconception that you need eight hours of sleep. There is some data saying this. There is another equally robust data set saying 6.5 to 7.4 is associated with the best health outcomes. Now it's very hard to tell. These studies are observational. They're not randomized. There was all sorts of confounds and problems with this, but this one study in particular had a million people in it. It's been replicated. There are plenty of people who believe this data and people vary. And over the course of a lifetime, your individual sleep capacity could change. In a funny way, that was what surprised me most. Right? This mantra, which is kind of a tyranny, get eight hours or else. Taylor Wilson: Well, you talked Jennifer about the modern world conspiring against us and our sleep, and I guess let's try to outline a few of the possible causes of what you call a public health emergency, right? What can you share with us here on this? Jennifer Senior: About other causes, you mean besides the kind of modernity itself and kids working on... Kids being assigned homework online, kids socializing online. I mean, adolescents are desperate for sleep. They're so hungry for it, and modern high schools and middle schools have them waking up preposterously early when their circadian rhythms are pitched forward. We've got a substantial sandwich generation that's taking care of young kids and their elderly parents. That's going to conspire against it. These are all immutable things. Also, there are elevated levels of anxiety now in our world, and anxiety itself is a huge source of... Or can be a source of sleeplessness, certainly can make one prone. So I mean, those are additional examples I suppose. Taylor Wilson: Let's talk through your story a bit here. When did you first realize that you had an issue with sleep? And walk us through your experience with insomnia. Jennifer Senior: It was 25 years ago and it was a very mysterious onset. I cannot tell you what brought it on to this day. It is a mystery. I had this extremely well-regulated kind of circadian clock. I fell asleep every night at 1:00. I woke up every day at 9:00. I lost my alarm clock. I still woke up at those times. I didn't have to buy a new alarm clock until I had an early flight one day, and yet sometime very close to my 29th birthday when virtually no circumstances in my life had changed one iota, I had a bad night, fell asleep at like 5:00. Thought nothing of it until they became more regular, and then I started doing all-nighters involuntarily, and I felt like I'd been poisoned. And to this day, I don't know what happened, but once that happens, the whole cycle starts to happen, then people suddenly become very afraid of not falling asleep and whatever kicked it off whether it's mysterious or known becomes irrelevant because then what you do is you start getting very agitated and going, oh my God, I'm not sleeping. Oh my God, I'm still not sleeping. Now it's 3:00 in the morning. Now it's 4:00 in the morning. Now it's 5:00 in the morning. Oh my God, I have one more hour, et cetera. Taylor Wilson: Well, you did write in the piece about the many different recommendations that she tried to solve your own sleep issues. What were some of them, Jennifer, and did any of them help? Jennifer Senior: Oh God, I tried all the things. This is before I sought real professional help, but I did all the things. I would took Tylenol PM, which did not work. I did acupuncture, which were lovely, but did not work. I listened to a meditation tape that a friend gave me, did not work. I listened to another one that was for sleep only that did not work. I ran. I always was a runner, but I ran extra, did not work. Gosh, changed my diet. I don't remember. I did all sorts of things. I tried different supplements, Valerian root, all these things. Melatonin, nothing, nothing. Taylor Wilson: You wrote in depth about one therapy that was recommended to you, and that was CBTI. That's cognitive based therapy for insomnia. Jennifer, first, what is this? And second, did you find any success by using this? Jennifer Senior: So cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, as you said, is the gold standard for treating insomnia. It's portable. You can take it with you. It's not like if you leave your sleep meds at home. The main tent pole of it, which is sleep restriction, which I'll get to in a minute, is very hard to do. I found it murder, the kind of easier parts, although they're still in a funny way, kind of paradoxical, are you have to change your thinking around this is the cognitive piece around sleeping and insomnia. You have to decide, okay, I'm not sleeping. So what? Now, this is kind of funny because there's this din surrounding us that says, oh my God, you're not sleeping. You're going to die of a heart attack. You're going to die of an immune disease. You're going to get cancer. All these things, right? You have to set that all aside and decide one more night's sleep that I can't sleep. So what? Right. That's one thing. You have to change your behaviors, deciding that you are going to consistently go to bed at the same time, wake up at the same time, all that, and not use your bed for anything other than just for sleeping and sex. The hard part and the most powerful part that I found it brutal was the part that said you have to restrict your sleep. If you had only five hours of sleep, but you're in bed for nine hours, you have to choose a wake-up time. Let's say it's 7:00 and then you have to go to bed five hours earlier, 2:00 to s7:00. That's all you can give yourself, and you cannot stop with that schedule until you've slept for the majority of those hours. That's very hard for a sleepless person. And then once you've succeeded, all you get to add on is 15 more minutes of sleep, and then you have to sleep the majority of those hours for three nights running. This is always for three nights running, and the idea is to build up a enough sleep pressure to regularize yourself. You basically capitulate to exhaustion and you start to develop a rhythm. I couldn't stick with it. I was so kind of stupid and depressed with sleeplessness by the time I started it that it probably was impractical and I refused to take drugs to help me fall asleep at the exact right hour, which many clinics recommend. If you're going to go to bed and sleep from 2:00 to 7:00, take something at 1:30 so that you fall asleep at two. But I was afraid of being dependent on drugs, and you can really wean yourself if you do it for a limited amount of time. You can wean yourself anytime really, if you're shrewd about it and if you taper. But I think that I would tell people to try it and to try it sooner rather than later, and to be unafraid of doing it in combination with drugs so that the schedule worked. Taylor Wilson: Well, I am happy you brought up drugs. I did want to bring that up just in terms of what experts are saying about their impact. Even just drugs and alcohol kind of writ large, but sleeping pills specifically. What did you find in researching this in terms of drugs and alcohol? Jennifer Senior: Well, there's a real stigma taking sleep medication, and I'm frankly a little sick of it. I'm not sure why this is so very stigmatized. Like, oh, they're drug addict. They're hooked on sleeping pills. It's framed as addiction, and no one says that someone is addicted to their Ozempic, even though a lifestyle change could perhaps obviate the need. No one says that they are addicted... Oh, that person is totally addicted to their blood pressure medication, even though maybe a change in lifestyle would help change that. Or that they're addicted to their statins, So I sort of bristle. And those who prescribe these medicines say like, look, if the benefit outweighs the risk and they're used properly, sometimes the real side effect is just being dependent on these drugs, and there's a difference between dependence and addiction. A surprisingly small number of people who take these drugs regularly, like benzodiazepines, like Ativan and Ambien and Klonopin, all these things, a surprisingly small number, like 7% increase their doses if they take it every night. So that's very small. However, there are cognitive decrements over time... Or not decrements. It can interfere with your memory and it can increase your odds of falling as you get older. And those are, to me, the real persuasive reasons to get off. Taylor Wilson: I want to back up a minute here to talk about something many may not be aware of, and that's that historically, at least in some eras, people used to sleep in two blocks. What do you know about this? How did this function and really why did this kind of sleep pattern work for some folks? Jennifer Senior: Well, it was sort of, I think, natural. It seemed that this is, and it has not been proven everywhere, but there's plenty of both historical evidence and also some in a lab by this wonderful guy named Tom Ware that shows that if you sort of just put someone in a room, 14 hours of darkness, what will happen is that their sleep will naturally split into two. They'll sleep for a phase, wake up for a phase, and then sleep for a phase again. And historically, there's all sorts of evidence that people would sleep for a phase, get up and read for a while, do some quiet things, do light tasks, maybe sing, maybe have sex, and then go back to bed. So there seemed to be two phases, and this was much easier to do when midnight was actually midnight. You were going bed when the sun had set, or just after were you were tethered to the rhythms of the earth as opposed to a wired electricity run world. Taylor Wilson: What is something you wish you knew when you first started on this journey? Jennifer Senior: To get on it earlier and to not be as afraid... Cognitive behavioral therapy is, I think, often done in conjunction with taking something like Klonopin or Ativan or Ambien, and I was so petrified of becoming hooked on them that I didn't... I refused to take them and I couldn't get my sleep to contract as a result of it. My body was so completely dysregulated and confused about it was so all over the place that I really needed something to regularize it and stabilize it, and I flipped out, and I think if anybody goes and tries CBT, I and their practitioner says to them, and I'm going to have to be on their recommendation, do this in concert with a drug, because you really need it. Don't sit there and freak out and think that you can't or shouldn't, because it happens a lot and people freak out a lot. Taylor Wilson: All right, Jennifer Senior, thank you so much for coming on the Excerpt. Jennifer Senior: Thank you so much for having me. Taylor Wilson: Thanks to our senior producers, Shannon Rae Green and Kaylee Monahan for their production assistance. Our executive producer is Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to podcasts@ Thanks for listening. I'm Taylor Wilson. I'll be back tomorrow morning with another episode of USA TODAY's the Excerpt.
