5 days ago
The three Wallabies legends who started a rugby pod
ANTICIPATION IS BUILDING among a crowd of several hundred at Felons Brewing Co., a sprawling brewery and bar along the riverside in Brisbane.
The flowing pints help the atmosphere among these Lions and Wallabies-loving fans, but they're excited to see the three Australian legends they came for.
On a quiet mezzanine behind the stage area are the KOKO crew. They're immaculately dressed, enjoying a few pre-show pints, and discussing how they turned their close friendship into a thriving podcast.
Matt Giteau, Adam Ashley-Cooper, and Drew Mitchell teamed up with host James Rochford around 18 months ago to form 'Kick Offs and Kick Ons.' It's a weekly podcast that also goes out on YouTube, but they've branched into live shows and are flat out around this Lions tour.
They won 295 Wallabies caps between them, so they know their rugby but KOKO has been a big success because Giteau, Mitchell, and Ashley-Cooper have thoroughly been themselves. Craic is to the fore on KOKO.
'I had done some podcast stuff with Will Genia in Japan and I was talking to these two fellas because we had our own little group chat,' says Giteau of how the idea formed.
'I said it seemed like a lot of fun, you can be connected to the game but you've got editing control and can say what you want but in a positive way.'
Mitchell had already been working in the media and Ashley-Cooper was in discussions with another podcast about joining them, so the timing was good.
'When we were playing together, we always said we'd do something after we finished,' says Ashley-Cooper, better known as 'Swoop.'
'We did a wine together, but that tasted like cat's piss,' interjects Giteau.
The three of them had dealt with the media a huge amount during their careers and though they say they never grew to hate that side of the game, they liked the idea of being in control of how they were portrayed.
Fans wait for the show at Felons in Brisbane. The 42 The 42
Mitchell's work in TV also made podcasting more attractive.
'On TV, you have to give an opinion but don't get the opportunity to provide the context,' says Mitchell, who also played with Giteau at Toulon.
'So the longer form was more appealing. Podcasts allow you to provide that context. Sometimes on TV, you've got 10 seconds to get an opinion out.'
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Giteau adds that he believes, 'TV has got an agenda, which I hate. We just push what we want.'
Rochford, who has vast experience working in television, neatly captures why KOKO has become popular.
'People love it because it's real, it's organic,' says Rochford. 'If Swoop is pissing Drew off, he can tell him he's pissing him off. On TV, he can't say that.
'The whole idea is that you're the fifth person in the room, you're sitting with these guys in the pub and it's a conversation.'
The fact that the ex-Wallabies trio are such close friends makes the on-air relationship all the smoother, whereas Mitchell explains that on TV you could be working with someone you don't have any chemistry with.
'And then James is elite at what he does,' says Mitchell, before the other two slag the host off.
'I revolutionised sports broadcasting,' jokes Rochford.
The pod has been well-received by rugby fans and people in the game. People regularly yell 'KOKO' at them in the streets. Current players, including some of the Lions, have told them they're regular listeners.
'Honestly, it's a bit overwhelming,' says Ashley-Cooper.
KOKO invite current and ex-players onto the show most weeks and we tend to see a different side to them. It's not the same as the guarded manner many of them adopt with traditional mainstream media.
'When you put them in front of a media banner, there's a microphone in front of them, cameras, they get their guard up but we just want it to be more conversational,' says Mitchell.
'We're not there to stitch people up, to get headlines and breaking news, to get the inside word on selection. We just want to get to know the player.'
Ashley-Cooper adds that players enjoy not getting bogged down in rugby chat.
'What's the last thing a rugby player wants to talk about?' says former Bordeaux wing Ashley-Cooper. 'It's rugby.
'Heavily ingrained in our Australian culture is this 'tall poppy syndrome' where people are always trying to find the negative first. As players, that can bother you. So we're very aware of how now, as media – are we media? I'd probably refer to us as pirates – how important it is to be positive and get behind them.'
Giteau says they once invited a guest on who they weren't sure about but felt would be good for the podcast. He felt dirty afterwards and told Rochford that they shouldn't do anything for the clicks again.
One thing that listeners and YouTube viewers enjoy about KOKO is what the quartet themselves describe as its 'looseness.' The jokes and slagging are never far away and fans can get a sense of what it's like to be in a pro rugby environment.
Rochford remembers being in TV production meetings where people said something like KOKO just couldn't work. Rugby is often viewed as very serious and stuffy, something they want to change.
'Rugby is private schools and leather patches,' says Giteau. 'The people's sports here are rugby league and AFL. But we're all from pretty ordinary upbringings, so we want to show that not everyone is like that image.'
They do break down and analyse rugby on KOKO too. The Wallabies trio have great knowledge of the technical, tactical, and mental side of the game, so sometimes they wander down those avenues.
They don't want to get overly nerdy but sometimes it just happens. When it does, Rochford tries to make sure they explain any rugby jargon that listeners might not know.
'We do love code,' says Ashley-Cooper.
Rochford says he has a run-down planned for the podcast each week but 90% of it never sees the light of day.
'It's just mates hanging out and it doesn't feel like an effort,' says the host, before Giteau explains that he drives three hours each way from Canberra to Sydney for every pod because he enjoys it so much.
'We turn up to the studio at 3pm on a Monday, beers open, and talk about what we did at the weekend,' says Ashley-Cooper. 'We roll in, it's just organic.'
With this Lions series, the 2027 World Cup, and the 2029 Women's World Cup all in Australia, the KOKO lads are excited about what the future holds.
But Ashley-Cooper says the main thing is the job at hand in Brisbane as they tuck into another round of pints before heading out on stage.
'Right now, all I'm worried about is getting through tonight, mate!'
