Meet the Press – May 25, 2025 Fmr. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy, fmr. Rep. Patrick J. Kennedy (D-R.I.), Arthur Brooks, Lori Gottlieb, Nedra Glover Tawwab and Jean Twenge

NBC News

25-05-2025

KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: lost and lonely. More young Americans are struggling with feelings of isolation and anxiety than ever before.
FMR. SURGEON GENERAL VIVEK MURTHY:
I want us to begin a conversation as a country about what I see as a profound public health threat.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I'll speak with the former Surgeon General Vivek Murthy who says loneliness is one of the most urgent crises of our time.
FMR. SURGEON GENERAL VIVEK MURTHY:
Loneliness has serious effects on our mental health and our physical health.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Plus: seeking solutions. As experts link social media use with increases in loneliness, anxiety and depression, is keeping kids offline the right approach?
SEN. KATIE BRITT:
Our kids' worsening mental health is an emergency, and it's an emergency clearly and undeniably linked to social media.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Former Congressman Patrick Kennedy talks with us about the current debate in Congress on how to safeguard the next generation. And: the happiness formula.
ARTHUR BROOKS:
If you want to be a happier person that's where to look.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Harvard professor and happiness expert Arthur Brooks will share some solutions to the mental health crisis. Joining me for insight and analysis are: psychotherapist and author Lori Gottlieb; psychologist and author Jean Twenge; and therapist and author Nedra Glover Tawwab. Welcome to Sunday and a special edition of Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is a special edition of Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. The mental health crisis in America is impacting young people in profound ways, and public health officials say it is an emergency. Two-thirds of Gen Z report feelings of loneliness, and half of young adults report symptoms of anxiety and depression. Youth suicide rates are climbing; it is now one of the leading causes of death in adolescents and young adults. Almost one in five young adults report rarely or never receiving the social support they need. In our super connected times, over 55 million U.S. adults report frequent loneliness. The smartphones and social media apps that connect us to the world are also accelerating the crisis. Even before the Covid-19 pandemic hit, teenage depression doubled between 2011 and 2019. Unregulated social media platforms and the rise of artificial intelligence present unique challenges for the future, and there is bipartisan concern on Capitol Hill.
[START TAPE]
REP. KATHY CASTOR:
Almost half of U.S. teens have experienced bullying or harassment online. Between 2010 and 2019, teen depression rates doubled with teenage girls seeing the sharpest increase. In -- in 2021 almost a third of girls said they are seriously considering attempting suicide.
SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN:
In the physical world, there are laws against this. It is only in the virtual space that it remains the wild west, and our children can be attacked every single day, nonstop, 24/7, 365.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
This morning we will devote the full broadcast to this important and critical topic. And joining me now is former surgeon general Vivek Murthy. He is the author of the book "Together: The Healing Power Of Human Connection In a Sometimes Lonely World" which addresses what he's declared is an epidemic of loneliness and isolation in America. Dr. Murthy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
DR. VIVEK MURTHY:
Thanks so much, Kristen. I'm so glad to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here for this important conversation. So as surgeon general, one of your top priorities was to tackle what you called an epidemic of loneliness and isolation, especially in young people, Dr. Murthy. Why is this such an important topic to focus on? And why did you make this such an important focus when you were surgeon general?
DR. VIVEK MURTHY:
Well, Kristen, this issue came as a real surprise to me. I didn't start my tenure as surgeon general thinking that I was going to focus on loneliness back in 2014. But what I had found as I traveled around the country is that people were telling me stories about loneliness everywhere I went. College students on campuses, surrounded by thousands of other kids, but saying, "I don't feel like anybody knows me. I don't feel like I can be myself. I feel alone." Parents were saying this. CEOs were saying this. Members of Congress were telling me they were struggling with loneliness. Everywhere I went, this is a challenge. And as I dug into the data, two things emerged. One is that loneliness is extraordinarily common. We've got over half of kids who are saying, for example, that they struggle with loneliness. And, by the way, kids across the population struggle the most. But it's also consequential. When you struggle with loneliness and isolation, it raises your risks of depression, anxiety, and suicide. But it also increases your risk of heart disease by 29%, stroke by 31%, dementia by 50% among older adults. And the overall mortality increase that can be related to social disconnection, is comparable to the mortality impact as smoking and obesity. That's how powerful and how important loneliness is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. And just to delve into it, you say smoking. It actually, as you say in your book, 'Together,' it's the equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day, Dr. Murthy. That's a staggering figure. Explain the science behind those numbers, those figures that you just talked about.
DR. VIVEK MURTHY:
Well, it turns out that our connection with one another, this is not just a nice thing to have, it's biologically an imperative for us. It's something we need for survival, just like we need food and water. And when we're deprived of social connection, it actually puts our body into a stress state. We feel like we're under threat. Now, in the short term, stress can sometimes help you, right, when you're preparing for an exam or for a presentation. But imagine chronic stress that comes from chronic loneliness. That's when it starts to increase inflammation in our body, increase our risk for heart disease, and other conditions that ultimately shorten our life.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when you were surgeon general, you actually went on a listening tour all across the country, to talk to families about what they were experiencing. Why is loneliness hitting young people so hard? What did you find?
DR. VIVEK MURTHY:
Well, there are a few things that have been happening. One is just, over time, we had just moved around more. We changed communities, changed jobs. We tend to leave the people we know behind. We also find that, over the last half century, in our country, participation in the kind of organizations that used to bring people together, faith organizations, recreational leagues, service organizations, has all declined. But what I worry about, for young people in particular, is the impact that technology is having on their social connection. We tend to think, "Oh. Kids are on social media. That's great because they're connected to one another." But, no, we have to recognize there's a difference between the connections you have online and the connections you have in person. And as more relationships are shifted online, we're realizing that, number one, more kids are struggling with this intense culture of self-comparison online which is shredding their self-esteem. A lot of them are trying to be somebody that they're not online. And they actually don't have as many friendships in person as we all need. So you put this all together and what you see is escalating loneliness and isolation. And I'll tell you this. The people who know about this most are young people themselves because they would tell me, all the time, how lonely they were. And one student that I talked to at a college, as I was traveling the country, he said to me, he said "How are we supposed to connect with one another, when it's no longer the culture for people to talk to each other?" And I had him repeat the question because I wasn't sure I heard him right, the first time. He's saying it's no longer the culture for people to talk to each other. And I saw that on college campuses. The first college I went to, I walked into the dining hall and it was quiet.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wow.
DR. VIVEK MURTHY:
And I remember the dining hall being really loud in college.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes.
DR. VIVEK MURTHY:
But everyone is on their devices, their ears are plugged, you know, with their earbuds. And they're not talking to one another.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wow. It's just staggering. That is a powerful anecdote. And you tell of meeting a mother, also, from Colorado whose – it's such a tragic story. Her daughter committed suicide after she was bullied online. And this is a mom who was deeply engaged in her daughter's activities online. Dr. Murthy, talk to the parents out there who hear stories like that and they are terrified but also concerned their children may be falling through the cracks. What's the message? And what are the warning signs?
DR. VIVEK MURTHY:
Well, listen, parents do have good reason to be worried right now. And many parents already are. The most common question I got from parents around the country was about social media. They asked, "Is this really safe for my kids?" And that was the reason I issued a surgeon general advisory on social media and youth mental health. Lori, the young mother that you mentioned in Colorado, who I met, was one of the most tragic stories that I encountered. But she did everything that you think a parent should want to do. She told her – talked to her kids about social media. She checked her daughter's phone every night, you know, before she went to bed, to understand what she was using and what she wasn't. But what she didn't know was that there were ways that her daughter could hide apps under other apps. Her daughter had multiple accounts that she didn't even know about. And she only realized after her daughter took her own life that she'd been mercilessly bullied and harassed online. And she saw just how her self-esteem had been shredded. Here's what I would tell parents. Number one, this is a journey that is difficult for any of us to make alone. And it's important for us to talk to each other, as parents, to come together and to support each other because right now a lot of parents think that everyone else has figured out and they're the only ones struggling. That is not the case. The second thing you should know, as parents, about technology and social media is delaying the use of social media for your kid as long as possible is important. And that's because the adolescent brain is not the same as an adult brain. If you look, biologically, young people's brains are in a different phase of development. They are more susceptible to social comparison, to social suggestion, their impulse control is not as well developed. And that puts them more at risk of the negative effects of social media. I would wait until, at least, after middle school. And in high school-- and this is what we're planning to do for my kids-- we're going to reassess, based on whether real safety standards have been put in place, what the data is telling us, and the maturity of our kids. But finally this, if your kids are already on social media, what do you do? I think it's important for us to create tech-free zones in their life, to protect the dimensions of a kid's life that are critical for their development, like sleep, like in-person interaction, learning, and physical activity. So that means no phones an hour before bedtime. You can get them back in the morning. To mealtimes, dedicate those to in-person, face-to-face conversation without devices. If we lead by example on this, as parents, we can do a lot to help our kids.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You actually, you just referenced this as surgeon general, called for warning labels to be placed on social media. And, look, social psychologist, Jonathan Haidt, he puts a number on what you were just saying. He says, "Kids should not be on social media until they're, at least, 16 years old.' It's a part of rewiring children's brains. Can you take us through the science of that? And at 16, I know you said after middle school, would you say 16 is the appropriate age?
DR. VIVEK MURTHY:
I think 16 is a very reasonable age for parents to consider as a threshold. And look, some kids might be very mature. Perhaps, some of them may be ready a bit earlier. Some kids actually may need more time past 16. But, I mean, 16 is a good benchmark. We know that our brain is evolving a lot during adolescence. And what we've also seen in studies is that kids who are, you know, using social media a lot, who have problematic social media use, we do see changes, both in the structure and the function of the brain. So the bottom line is these devices, these platforms, in particular, social media platforms, are having an effect on our children. And it's why what I have called on Congress to do is not only put warning labels on social media platforms so that parents and kids are aware of the risks that we see, but I've also called on Congress, even more importantly, to establish safety standards for social media platforms, so that, number one, data transparency is required. Researchers routinely say they can't get the full data about the impact of these platforms on our kids' health from the companies. But just like we did for cars a few decades ago, we'll be putting safety standards that got us seat belts, airbags, crash testing. And those have reduced the number of deaths. We've got to do the same for social media because what we're doing now, Kristen, is we're basically – it's the equivalent of putting our kids in cars with no seat belts, with no airbags, and having them drive on roads with no speed limits and no traffic lights. And that is just morally unacceptable. I think Congress has so far failed in its responsibility to protect our kids. But it's not too late. They need to step up and act now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Absolutely terrifying comparison. And, Dr. Murthy, you say the way to actually keep kids off social media is to get a group of parents, a community. And I do want to talk to you about that idea, community. When you left office in January, you wrote what you call 'A Parting Prescription for America.' Not to eat less sugar, not to exercise more; it was two words. I want to put the two words up on the screen because they're powerful: Choose community. What is it, Dr. Murthy, about community, that is so powerful and important?
DR. VIVEK MURTHY:
Well, Kristen, over thousands of years, we evolved to be with each other. The people who went off on their own in our hunter-gatherer days and said, "You know what? I don't need anyone. I can be strong, independent, just do everything by myself," that person got eaten by a predator or they starved from an insufficient food supply. There is real strength in numbers. But I worry that in recent decades, what has happened is we've lost sight of how vital and important our communities are, as we've been pulled more into our devices. And as we can get everything delivered to our doorstep, we have less interactions with each other. But what I have found is that community really is what we all crave. It's what we need. And I know this because in the conversations that I have with people across the country, in big towns, and in small areas of the country, in rural and urban spaces, people talk about the fact that they just wish that people knew their neighbors again. They wished that we looked out for each other, that we gave each other the benefit of the doubt. Here's what community is. Community is where we know each other, where we help each other, and where we find purpose in lifting each other up. That's why relationships, purpose, and service, that is the core ingredients of community. It's also the triad of fulfillment. That's how I think of it. And I think part of the reason we are seeing so much unhappiness in our world right now is because these three elements of relationships, purpose, and service have eroded in many of our lives. And that's why I believe it's so important for us to build that back. It's why it was this focus in my parting prescription to America. And it's why going forward, long after I'm out of office, my goal is to do everything I can to help rebuild community in our country and beyond.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Really critical information, Dr. Vivek Murthy. Thank you so much for being here.
DR. VIVEK MURTHY:
Thanks so much, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Really appreciate it. And when we come back: seeking solutions. What can policy makers do to protect the mental health of the next generation? Former Congressman Patrick Kennedy joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Joining me now is former Congressman Patrick Kennedy of Rhode Island, a longtime advocate for better mental health policy. As a congressman, he co-authored the Mental Health Parity Act which forces insurance companies to treat mental health issues just like any other medical condition. His book 'Profiles in Mental Health Courage' offers inspiring accounts of Americans living with mental illness and addiction. Congressman Kennedy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
PATRICK J. KENNEDY:
Thank you, Kristen. It's great to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is so wonderful to have you here for this really important conversation.
PATRICK J. KENNEDY:
We really appreciate Meet the Press taking this role of highlighting this issue and how important it is to the country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you. I appreciate that, congressman. Well, you've been a big part of the conversation, and you've been very outspoken about your own struggles with bipolar disorder, with addiction. You just heard my conversation with the surgeon general, talking about the fact that the country has a crisis, an epidemic of loneliness. How did we get here?
PATRICK J. KENNEDY:
Well, obviously, I think social media is the big culprit. The key here, is how are we going to get out of it? And we need to educate our kids about the coping mechanisms and problem solving skills, and how they can emotionally regulate. We've got to make that an essential skill in our schools because, let's face it, technology's here to stay. Stress and trauma's here to stay. What we need is to give kids the ability to mediate their emotions and understand that there are actually skills that they can deploy that will help them manage their feelings. And I -- you know, my wife's a public school teacher. Ten years ago, they had STEM education: science, technology, engineering, math. The business community said, "We need this for competitiveness." I would say today for competitiveness, employers need to insist that our public education system adopt skill-building in brain health, ability for kids to learn how to manage stress because you can't have all these Gen-Zs and beyond go to work and not be able to, one, focus on their job, or to be worried because they can't manage their intrusive thoughts, right? In recovery, in my own case, I get this education from my mental health therapist, from my 12-step recovery peers. And I -- my life has been transformed as a result. But I think about all those that don't get that. And I think to myself, "What a shame that we don't make this essential in the development of our children."
KRISTEN WELKER:
So it should just be in the schools just like any other class or --
PATRICK J. KENNEDY:
Well, you know, Kristen, I got to rededicate the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center in Fort Bragg for the Green Berets. Do you know the Green Berets have more mental health for the Green Berets than any other branch of the service? You might say, "Why do the Green Berets need it? They're the strongest fighters that we have." Because the military's figured out that they can't have our special forces go into the field and have any distracting thoughts, have any intrusive thoughts. They literally need to be able to manage those intrusive thoughts so that they don't lose focus on the mission. And that's what we need for all Americans.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk a little bit about your book, 'Profiles in Mental Health Courage.' Congressman, was there a common theme that you found throughout these conversations about why people were struggling with mental health issues?
PATRICK J. KENNEDY:
Well, the delivery system, whether it's the regulations that create 50 different state licensures for clinicians, or the telehealth, which is a patchwork quilt of what's available, or it's the million different measurements for what constitutes outcomes, we are just not organized in this country. If we're really serious about making a difference, we need to simplify the system. We need to change the reimbursement model. And, by the way, if we want good results, we have to invest in a -- what I call a prevention fund of sorts. And we know about this reinsurance and this high risk fund. So what I would like is all the payers, the state, the Feds, to put in dollars based upon the actuarial impact of these illnesses. Foster care dollars, huge because parents are addicted and they have to be taken into state custody. Criminal justice dollars, over half of that is mental health and addiction. Why aren't we putting some of those dollars in a prevention fund where we can identify those people at highest risk and invest now? Because the current insurance model only reimburses within a year. If you can't show an ROI within a year, you've lost it. We need a prevention fund that can have an ROI over five, 10 years.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you're saying structural change both in the -- the medical and insurance space, but also in terms of social media, which you mentioned and, of course, the surgeon general mentioned as well, especially for young people. I want to play something, part of testimony from Ava Smithing. She shared her story in Congress about struggling with an eating disorder. And she says she was encouraged on social media. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
AVA SMITHING:
They stored my insecurity as data and linked it to all of my accounts across the internet. They used my data to infer what other types of ads and content I might like, leading me down a pipeline from bikini advertisements, to exercise videos, to dieting tips and finally to eating disorder content. I have a very specific memory of one post titled "Ballerina Diet," suggesting that the daily intake of only a black coffee, an orange and 16 almonds would keep me thin.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's hard to listen to that, congressman. And there's actually a bill being reintroduced in the Senate. It's called the Kids Online Safety Act. It would require platforms to take steps to mitigate exactly what we just heard from Ava. Do you think that type of legislation would make a difference? Is that what the country needs?
PATRICK J. KENNEDY:
So, here's the problem. Our country is falling down on its own responsibility as stewards to our children's future. We are commercializing marijuana across the country. How in the world, with kids' anxiety rates and depression rates, does it make sense to add to the addiction crisis by having more access -- you know, access to addiction products? Then you've got sports betting. Our states are becoming addicted to the revenue of sports betting. And I can guarantee you, just like you're playing that story about that young woman who's getting targeted, we already know the algorithms for these betting companies are targeting people who are high risk. And we are gonna see a high correlation between people with gambling addiction and suicide. And so what I'm saying, Kristen, is we can't just pass these bills. We've got to stop all of these intrusive addiction-for-profit companies from taking our kids hostage. That's what they're doing. This is a fight. And we are losing the fight because we're not out there fighting for our kids to protect them from these businesses that their whole profit motive is, "How am I going to capture that consumer and lock them in as a consumer?"
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, you take me to my next question because the last time Congress passed legislation that was aimed at helping kids in this space was 1998. Congressman, why has it been so hard for Congress to act, as a former member of Congress?
PATRICK J. KENNEDY:
Well, the power of the social media giants and their money, there's going to be a bigger settlement by Meta and all the big social media companies than even was tobacco or Purdue combined. You know, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. We, as a country, have seen these companies and industries take advantage of the addiction-for-profit. Purdue, tobacco. Social media's the next big one. And unfortunately, it's going to have to be litigated. We have to go after the devastating impact that these companies are having on our kids.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Very quickly, Congressman, you have overcome so much. What is your message to families who are struggling right now? What can give them hope in this moment?
PATRICK J. KENNEDY:
Well, first, it's community. It's what Dr. Murthy was talking about. I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for just my family, but I go to 12-step recovery every single day. I love the Zoom meetings. But frankly, it's the in-person meetings that have saved my life because I go there and I'm one with all of my friends. No matter where and what walk of life they -- whatever their political party, we all share one thing in common, and that is the need to hold onto one another for our own survival. And that supersedes everything. I often go on Fox, one of your competitors, on the marijuana thing. And my phone lights up afterwards. I can't believe how many of my colleagues who I go to meetings with are watching Fox. And you know what? It just shows. It doesn't matter our political backgrounds. When we're in recovery, helping one another is our number one priority.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. The power of community. Congressman Kennedy, thank you so much --
PATRICK J. KENNEDY:
Thank you, Kristen --
KRISTEN WELKER:
-- for being here. Wonderful to see you, as always. When we come back, the happiness formula. Harvard professor and happiness expert Arthur Brooks shares solutions to the mental health crisis.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Joining me now is Harvard professor Arthur Brooks who studies and teaches the science of happiness and is the author of the upcoming book The Happiness Files. Professor Brooks, welcome back to Meet the Press.
ARTHUR BROOKS:
Thank you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here to be a part of this conversation. You just heard my past two conversations in which we talked about the epidemic of loneliness and anxiety. And with you, I want to talk about the other side of this, which is the happiness formula. You are the 'professor of happiness'. And you have developed a happiness formula. Can you lay it out for us Professor Brooks?
ARTHUR BROOKS:
Of course. You know, one of the biggest mistakes that people make is thinking that happiness is a feeling. And they're chasing a feeling which is not the way emotions work. Emotions don't-- they're not there to give you a good day, they're there to give you alerts to things that are opportunities and threats around you.The thing to understand about happiness is that it's more tangible. The feelings are evidence of happiness. Actual happiness or the happiest people have a combination of three very concrete things in their lives. It's enjoyment of their life. It's satisfaction with their activities and accomplishments. And most importantly it's a sense of the meaning of their existence, the meaning of life. And that last pillar, that last macro-nutrient of happiness meaning actually lies behind the problems that we see today. When I'm looking at a large group of people, and I see a big unhappiness problem, I'm going to look for a barrier to one of those three things: enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. When I'm working with an executive or just anybody for that matter, I'm going to find a blockage. And that's what we find with people especially under 30 years old today, is a lack of a sense of the meaning of their lives. While they're looking for the meaning of their lives, they're doing all sorts of counterproductive things like scrolling on their phones, et cetera. But technology is not the root. Technology is part of the doom loop of meaning which is actually leading to the mental health crisis that we see today.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let's talk about a book that you actually co-wrote with Oprah. It's called Build the Life You Want: The Art and Science of Getting Happier. And you say happiness is actually something that you need to work at. What is the first step toward that happiness journey?
ARTHUR BROOKS:
Well, to begin with, happiness, pure happiness, is not a goal that we can reliably actually try to hit in our lives. On the contrary, we have negative emotions for a reason. We have negative experiences as part of an ordinary life. And so the first thing that I teach my students is: You can't be perfectly happy. Don't say, "I want to be happy." Say, "I want to be happier." And the way to do that is by looking, for example, at the formula that we just laid out and getting strategies and habits in your life to get more enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is there anything that you learned from Oprah about being happy in that experience of writing the book with her?
ARTHUR BROOKS:
Oh, my goodness. Yes, what a wonderful friend she has become over the last few years. And what I've learned from Oprah, it's funny, because in my work I have the opportunity to work with a lot of people in public life, people with huge media personas, for example. And they're generally different in public than they are in private, necessarily. I mean, you have a private life and you have a public life. Oprah is the same person. And this is part of her formula for happiness that we can actually all learn something from. The reason that, as she sees it, she enjoys a lot of the world's earthly rewards of, you know, money and power and the admiration of millions and billions of people around the world. She sees that that has been granted to her as an opportunity to lift other people up. And as such, she has a peace about her. So on the days when I'm a little bit stressed out and anxious, sometimes I'll text Oprah. So, and it helps me, because she's the kind of person that I would like to be more like her.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's incredible the two of you have this book that you co-wrote together. I want to ask you about something that you raise, Professor Brooks, which is this issue of technology, of social media. You heard me talking to Congressman Kennedy about it, to Dr. Murthy about it, as well. The average internet user in the United States-- I can't believe this-- will end up spending about 20 years online across the course of their adult life. It's hard to process that. Is there a way to be online and to be happy?
ARTHUR BROOKS:
There is. But, here is the basic formula. In any technology, not just the internet, not just-- any sort of computing or non face-to-face technology, all the stuff that we have around us, if it's a complement to your in-person relationships, it's beneficial. If it's a substitute for your in-person relationships, it's a problem. That's a lot of what Dr. Murthy was talking about. But that's the formula to think about for your kids and your own life. Is Zoom actually substituting for my ability to be with people in person? Is social media substituting for my real friends? If the answer is yes, you have a problem. On the other hand, if it's making actually your relationships richer, which means it has to be within certain bounds. You can't be doing it all day long. Then it can actually be part of a more rewarding life. And it won't turn into this doom loop where I'm bored and I'm lonely, so I turn to the internet. I turn to the apps. And that makes me more bored and lonely. I have a harder time finding the meaning of my life. And down and down it goes. That's like what Congressman Kennedy was talking about with alcohol and drugs. Alcohol and drugs are part of the doom loop in life. But you got to know why you're using, first of all.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, a profound way to think about it. In one of your columns in The Atlantic you cite a survey that suggests that more than half of young people actually say they want to be influencers. And you write that that can actually make you unhappier because to be so focused on oneself is not necessarily a healthy thing. What is your advice to young people in that space? How do you navigate that desire if you want to be an influencer versus the reality that it might not be the best thing?
ARTHUR BROOKS:
Well, understanding the truth is very important about this. The truth of the matter is that we have to understand ourselves as other people see us. But we have to be looking at and observing and experiencing our own lives as well. And the more that we're on our phones, the more effectively we are looking in a mirror. And there's a ton of evidence that shows that when you're looking in the mirror, you are not happy. You're less happy because precisely you're focusing on yourself. And so the mirror of it all is the biggest problem that people actually face. Being an influencer is like standing at a mirror, you know, all day long. And that's just sort of the secret, the fast path to depression and anxiety. Understanding that is the key to it. When young people actually understand what's going on in their brains, which is a lot of what I teach. I talk an awful lot about the neuroscience of these problems. And when they understand that psychology is biology, they have a lot more power. And that's one of the things we need to bring to the education for young people today.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, Professor Brooks, you also talk about faith and the fact that more and more Americans say they actually don't follow any organized religion. But you say it's not necessarily about that. That you can have faith. You can be faithful and that can be an important component to finding happiness as well.
ARTHUR BROOKS:
That's true. And the falling away of faith and all things like faith is a major contributor to this lack of life's meaning, as you can imagine. Now, when I talk about this with my students, I acknowledge. I'm a Catholic. It's the most important thing in my life, as a matter of fact. But really what we're talking about is transcendence away from looking in the mirror, being bigger than just you, standing in awe of the universe. And there are many things that people can actually do to get this transcendence, to get away from the tedium of the psychodrama of your own life. You know, for some people that means walking in nature or studying great music or starting a meditation practice or going back to church if that's actually what is part of your own life. But you need something. You need to transcend your ordinary life. Because if you won't, you'll be too much with yourself. And that's just not healthy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Professor Brooks, it's such important information, such an important part of this broader conversation. Thank you so much for being here today. We really appreciate it.
ARTHUR BROOKS:
Thank you, Kristen. Thank you for your attention to this. And we can solve this problem. We just have to do it together.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, I appreciate it very much. When we come back, our panel of experts is here with some advice about how to take on all of these mental health challenges.
ANNOUNCER:
To learn more about the books featured on Meet the Press, go to NBCNews.com/books. You'll also find new releases on history, biography and more. NBC News receives a commission for sales made through our website.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Our panel is here. Psychotherapist Lori Gottlieb, author of 'Maybe You Should Talk to Someone;' therapist Nedra Glover Tawwab, author of 'Consider This: Reflections for Finding Peace;' and Jean Twenge, psychology professor at San Diego State University and author of '10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World.' Thanks to all of you for being here. We really appreciate it. Jean, let me start with you because your research shows a really sharp rise in teen loneliness actually around 2012, just as smartphones, social media are taking off. Talk a little bit about why that has happened and why we are at the point where we are today.
JEAN TWENGE:
Yeah. I mean, that's the really stunning thing. It's not just that teens today are lonely. It's that they didn't used to be. Teen loneliness was actually trending down until about 2012, and then it just suddenly spiked upward, right at the time that people started to own smartphones, that Facebook bought Instagram, and that social media moved from optional to mandatory among teens. More and more teens started to say they felt left out, that they felt lonely. And it's not just social media. It's what social media replaced, because it's also around the same time they started to spend a lot less time with their friends in person.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's the loneliness epidemic that we just heard Dr. Murthy talking about. Nedra, what do you see as the biggest issues posed by social media and what can parents do about it?
NEDRA GLOVER TAWWAB:
People are seeking connection, and they're trying to get it on social media, and they're not getting it in real life because people are dissociating in person by being on their devices. So it's not helping with loneliness, but we think it is. It's giving us a false sense of connection, so we need to disconnect there and connect in real life. And really it should be a tool to facilitate in-person connection.
KRISTEN WELKER:
To build on in-person connections, not to replace it. And that's what's happening in so many instances. Lori, you talk about the fact that people are doom scrolling or binge watching and that that is such a big part of the problem. How do you see this issue playing out? How deeply ingrained is it? And what can parents do? A lot of families all across the country feel pretty helpless.
LORI GOTTLIEB:
Yeah, they do. You know, I think part of it is that we say one thing and we do another. The phones can be so addicting not just for our kids, but for us too. And so if we're sitting at dinner, and we hear a Tweet come in, or a text come in, or something, and we get up from the table, we're saying to our kids, "Don't do that, but we're going to do that." And so I think we need to be aware that we are just as addicted to our devices as they are and that we need to pay attention and put our phones down.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, so what is – let's talk about some potential solutions. Let's put our phones down. Jean, how do you foster that? How do you encourage your kids to do that? Once they pick them up, it's pretty hard. You heard Dr. Murthy saying, "Yeah, probably 16 is the right age to go on social media." The push and pull there is that some parents say, "I also don't want my kids to be outside of conversations that are happening at school." So how do you navigate that?
JEAN TWENGE:
Well, I agree. Sixteen really should be the minimum age for social media. And it's very tough for parents, because right now the minimum age is set at 13. It was a compromise in the early days of the internet. Even that is not enforced. Age isn't verified --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right.
JEAN TWENGE:
Parental permission isn't required. So we have ten-year-olds on TikTok and Instagram. I think pretty much everybody would agree that that's not a good situation. So parents have to try to take steps to keep their kids off social media. So if you want to do that, no social media until 16 is a great rule. It's one I suggest in the book. How are you going to do that? One way, delay giving them any phone, and especially delay giving them an internet-enabled smartphone that allows social media and internet. If you feel like they need a phone, give them one that texts and calls, maybe has a few other apps but does not have social media on it. It can be a flip phone. It can be a phone designed for kids.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Those old-fashioned flip phones, Nedra, are looking better and better by the minute as a mom of two. I think I'm going to go out and get some of those. You know, part of this challenge that we are facing as parents, as a community right now is AI, these AI chatbots that people are going online, they're having conversations basically with computers as if they are real people. What do you make of the AI surge, and what can parents and families do about that? Do you see that as a potential harm as well?
NEDRA GLOVER TAWWAB:
I think AI is good for some things, like checking your grammar. But for building relationships and connection, I don't think it's good for that. We have to learn those skills in real situations. And if we have this perfect companion in AI, if they're giving us the answer that we want to hear, that's not the friction that we need to really sustain our relationships.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Lori, get in on this conversation about AI, because I think a lot of people are wondering how it fits into this broader space. Here we are, so concerned about social media, and this is really another aspect of it.
LORI GOTTLIEB:
Yeah. I like what Nedra was saying about not having friction, because we need friction. That's part of relationships. And so I think that when people are using AI to kind of validate their position and they never get another perspective, I see in therapy people come in, and they'll say, "Oh, I had this entire conversation with AI about my issue with my partner." And of course AI is going to support what that person is saying. So I think that people need to understand what it is and what it isn't. And especially with our kids, like, you're saying you don't want them to have phones until 16. We need to talk to them about, "What are you doing on your phone? What is the difference between what you do on your phone and what you do in person?" Because there's space for both. People-- someone who might not find a community out in the world, they might find it online. But then can you use that to find ways to meet people in real life? So it's not that technology is bad. It's: can we be more intentional about how we use it?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jean, how do you see AI? Is it about being intentional and helping kids to navigate it, particularly if they are going online and having conversations almost to supplant friendships?
JEAN TWENGE:
I think that's going to be a big problem going forward. So my youngest kid is 13, so she has one of those phones designed for kids. But on the games, ads will come up, and some of the ads, a good amount of the ads that she gets are for AI boyfriends and girlfriends. And really young kids are being exposed to this. Now she can't click out and actually go sign up for one of these on her phone. But a lot of kids can. And what does that mean for their relationships going forward, that it's not a real relationship? It's going to, you know, be frictionless. It's going to say what you want it to say. And then that becomes that standard where-- how are they going to have a relationship with a real human being?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, to that point about, "How do you start to foster relationships," Lori, your book actually talks about loneliness and what to do about it. And just having one conversation with one person can make you feel that much less alone. What can someone do who feels so lonely they don't even know how to take that first step?
LORI GOTTLIEB:
Yeah. I think people think that you need a lot of people in your life to not be lonely, and that's not true. What you need is you need quality relationships, even with one or two people. And you also need these small social interactions during the day. So there's a whole body of research in the last few years that have shown that if you talk to people on the subway, you know, while waiting in line, instead of pulling out your phone, so if you look at people waiting in line somewhere or, you know, getting food, wherever you are, everyone's on their phone. No one's talking to each other. Any small interaction that you can incorporate into your life actually has shown it improves people's sense of well-being. Even doing it for a week improves your sense of well-being and decreases your sense of alienation and loneliness.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Nedra, what do you think works in terms of creating those connections? Again, sometimes just taking that first step.
NEDRA GLOVER TAWWAB:
I would say making something consistent. If you go to a coffee shop, going to the same one around the same time so you're seeing the same people. That familiarity can help you become less guarded and open to saying hello and open to building community and connection. I know that there are some people who are shy about speaking up, but I certainly think we have to do it when we're not engaged in our devices. If we think we have this connection in this community that we've built online, ask someone to come and help you with something.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
NEDRA GLOVER TAWWAB:
Like a real thing. And we don't find that in these communities that we have, but we can find that in real life.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Jean, you've obviously studied this generation. What do you think we will see moving forward? How does this conversation evolve? How does this issue evolve?
JEAN TWENGE:
Well, I think the danger is that we know from a lot of research the younger someone experiences depression, the more likely it is it's going to recur later in life. So I think Gen Z's going to be living with this for a long time. What encourages me is the conversations among teens, among young adults about more regulation around social media. A lot of those groups are advocating for that. Teens are having these conversations. So I talk at schools, often to high school and middle school students. And they will have these conversations with their friends of, "Hey, if I don't text you back right away, I'm not mad at you. I'm taking a break from my phone." And, "Hey, maybe let's not set up our plans on Instagram or Snapchat. Let's use texting to do that," to try to find other ways to communicate that might be healthier.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Nedra, quick final thought from you. What gives you hope in this moment?
NEDRA GLOVER TAWWAB:
I think we've done this with other technologies, where we have figured out how to live with the technology in front of us. And we can do that with devices. We can do it with social media. We just have to practice some new skills.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Lori, finally to you-- What gives you hope as you look to the future?
LORI GOTTLIEB:
What gives me hope is that teens are really talking about this. When there was this, you know, question of the TikTok ban, a lot of teens were saying, "That might be good. That might be good. We love our TikTok. We don't want to lose it. But at the same time, let's think about maybe whatever happens with TikTok, can we be more aware of how we're using it?" And I think the fact that they're aware that it's a problem means that they're willing to make some changes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, thank you all so much for being here today for this really important conversation. We really appreciate it. Well, as we do every Memorial Day weekend, we pause to remember the U.S. service members who gave their lives in the past year in service to our country. Please take a moment to reflect on their sacrifice.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Forty percent of US high school students reported feeling sad or hopeless in 2023 and 20 percent had seriously considered attempting suicide. In 1999, Second Lady Tipper Gore joined Meet the Press to discuss the importance of addressing health concerns for the youngest generations.
[BEGIN TAPE]
TIPPER GORE:
Suicide is the second leading cause of death among adolescents. When I talk to kids, what I hear from them is their concern for other kids that they know who might be headed for trouble or who are in pain, who need help but are afraid to reach out and get it. They're ashamed. Well, if I go to a mental health professional or if I go to the counselor, everyone's going to make fun of me. So that's preventing them from getting the help they need. Children that become withdrawn and isolated, they may be suffering from depression. They may attempt suicide. This can be prevented if we, as adults and children, listen to the early warning signs and take action when we know that we have an early warning sign. I think that that's the key, that we need to say to kids, "You need access to mental health help just like you need access to textbooks.'
[END TAPE]