Buy Or Fear Oil-Dri Of America Stock
Our conclusion is drawn from comparing the current valuation of ODC stock to its operational performance in recent years, as well as its current and historical financial state. Our analysis of Oil-Dri of America across key parameters of Growth, Profitability, Financial Stability, and Downturn Resilience indicates that the company exhibits a robust operating performance and financial status, as clarified below. However, for those investors who prefer lower volatility than individual stocks, the Trefis High Quality Portfolio offers an alternative – having outperformed the S&P 500 and yielded returns surpassing 91% since its inception.
In terms of what you pay for each dollar of sales or profit, ODC stock appears somewhat inexpensive when compared to the wider market.
• Oil-Dri of America has a price-to-sales (P/S) ratio of 1.5 compared to a figure of 3.0 for the S&P 500
• Additionally, the company's price-to-free cash flow (P/FCF) ratio stands at 9.5 in contrast to 20.5 for the S&P 500
• Furthermore, it holds a price-to-earnings (P/E) ratio of 15.5 compared to the benchmark's 26.4
Oil-Dri of America's Revenues have experienced significant growth in recent years.
• Oil-Dri of America has witnessed its top line increase at an average rate of 12.9% over the past 3 years (versus an increase of 5.5% for the S&P 500)
• Its revenues have risen 8.2% from $430 million to $465 million in the last 12 months (compared to growth of 5.5% for the S&P 500)
• Additionally, its quarterly revenues increased 10.6% to $117 million in the latest quarter from $106 million a year prior (versus a 4.8% rise for the S&P 500)
Oil-Dri of America's profit margins are less favorable than those of most companies in the Trefis coverage universe.
• Oil-Dri of America's Operating Income over the previous four quarters totaled $62 million, reflecting a moderate Operating Margin of 13.3% (versus 13.2% for the S&P 500)
• Oil-Dri of America's Operating Cash Flow (OCF) during this period was $75 million, indicating a moderate OCF Margin of 16.1% (compared to 14.9% for the S&P 500)
• For the last four-quarter period, Oil-Dri of America's Net Income was $46 million – suggesting a poor Net Income Margin of 9.8% (relative to 11.6% for the S&P 500)
Oil-Dri of America's balance sheet appears solid.
• Oil-Dri of America's Debt was reported at $58 million at the conclusion of the most recent quarter, with its market capitalization standing at $762 million (as of 6/6/2025). This creates a strong Debt-to-Equity Ratio of 8.3% (in contrast to 19.9% for the S&P 500). [Note: A low Debt-to-Equity Ratio is preferable]
• Cash (along with cash equivalents) comprises $23 million of the $354 million in Total Assets for Oil-Dri of America. This leads to a moderate Cash-to-Assets Ratio of 6.4% (compared to 13.8% for the S&P 500)
ODC stock has experienced a slightly better impact than the benchmark S&P 500 index during certain recent downturns. While investors remain optimistic about a soft landing for the U.S. economy, what might the consequences be if another recession occurs? Our dashboard How Low Can Stocks Go During A Market Crash illustrates how key stocks performed during and after the last six market crashes.
• ODC stock dropped 41.5% from a peak of $19.23 on 11 March 2021 to $11.24 on 11 October 2022, compared to a peak-to-trough decline of 25.4% for the S&P 500
• The stock completely recovered to its pre-Crisis peak by 9 March 2023
• Since then, the stock has risen to a high of $54.82 on 8 June 2025
• ODC stock decreased 24.6% from a high of $19.19 on 16 January 2020 to $14.46 on 16 March 2020, compared to a peak-to-trough decline of 33.9% for the S&P 500
• The stock fully recovered to its pre-Crisis peak by 11 March 2021
• ODC stock declined 49.4% from a high of $11.47 on 10 December 2007 to $5.81 on 10 October 2008, in contrast to a peak-to-trough decline of 56.8% for the S&P 500
• The stock fully recovered to its pre-Crisis peak by 17 June 2010
In conclusion, Oil-Dri of America's performance across the parameters outlined above is as follows:
• Growth: Very Strong
• Profitability: Weak
• Financial Stability: Strong
• Downturn Resilience: Neutral
• Overall: Neutral
When considered alongside its low valuation, this renders the stock appealing, supporting our assessment that ODC represents a wise stock to purchase.
Although ODC stock appears promising, investing in a single stock bears its risks. Conversely, the Trefis High Quality (HQ) Portfolio, which consists of 30 stocks, has a proven track record of comfortably outperforming the S&P 500 over the past 4 years. What accounts for this? As a collective, HQ Portfolio stocks have delivered superior returns with reduced risk compared to the benchmark index; providing a smoother experience as demonstrated in HQ Portfolio performance metrics.
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Full transcript of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Aug. 3. 2025
On this "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan: Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan." MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington. And this week on Face the Nation: new economic jitters, as turbulence over tariffs intensifies and President Trump fires the person who delivered Friday's week jobs report. (Begin VT) QUESTION: Mr. President. QUESTION: Mr. President. (End VT) MARGARET BRENNAN: President Trump didn't like Friday's employment report. (Begin VT) DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): I believe the numbers were phony. So you know what I did? I fired her. (End VT) MARGARET BRENNAN: But what's behind those numbers and the back-and-forth with the dozens of countries facing new tariffs later this week? We will talk with Trump's top trade negotiator, Ambassador Jamieson Greer, Minister for Canadian U.S.-Trade Dominic LeBlanc. And for a look at how these developments are impacting Americans, Bank of America CEO Brian Moynihan will join us. Plus, what exactly is ahead for Americans who are on Medicare or Medicaid? We will talk to the head of the agency that runs those programs, Dr. Mehmet Oz. New Mexico has the highest proportion of Medicaid recipients, and the state's Democratic governor, Michelle Lujan Grisham, will also be here. It's all just ahead on Face the Nation. Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation. The jobs report that came out Friday was unexpected and disappointing. There is more uncertainty ahead for American businesses and consumers when it comes to President Trump's plans for imposing new tariffs on imports from some 70 countries now expected this Thursday. On Friday, we spoke with Mr. Trump's trade representative, Ambassador Jamieson Greer, and we asked him whether he thought there was any chance those rates would be negotiated down in the coming days. (Begin VT) AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER (U.S. Trade Representative): I don't – I don't think they will be in the coming days. I think a lot of these – well, I know a lot of these, are set rates, pursuant to deals. Some of these deals are announced. Some are not. Others depend on the level of the trade deficit or surplus we may have with the country. So – so these – these tariff rates are pretty much set. MARGARET BRENNAN: You said, at some point, the president's view is maybe a tariff is better than a deal. Are you saying there are countries that just they have no shot of avoiding a tariff? AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: Most countries in the world, they just have a tariff assigned to them, right, whether it's… MARGARET BRENNAN: It'll be the 10 percent or 15 percent. AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: … 10 or 15 or the higher-level tariff, because, again, when the president is looking at this, he looks at potential deals. And we bring him potential concessions from countries and the things they might want to do. And he compares that to the potential tariff that might be applied to try to get that deficit down. And then, talking to his advisers, he makes a call on this. And, you know, sometimes, a country will come back and make additional concessions that – that make it more appropriate. He's trying to get at the deficit. He's trying to reshore manufacturing. MARGARET BRENNAN: Trying to reshore manufacturing, bring manufacturing jobs back to America. But we just saw in this unemployment data that, while the level is pretty low overall, it's pretty steady and good, manufacturing, in particular, we saw it contract for the fifth straight month in July. Factory employment dropped to lowest levels in five years. What does that data indicate to you about the impact of your tariffs? AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: I think a lot of companies were waiting to see if the tax bill was going to come through with the expensing for capital goods and things like that. And so I think now you know a lot of that data comes pre-One Big Beautiful Bill. Now that we have One Big Beautiful Bill, and we have a better sense of where the taxes are going. I think we're going to see a much – we're going to see more investment. All the – all the commitments on investment we've seen countries making, that's going to come through. So I don't – I don't read tariff policy into that number. I think that is kind of pre-bill policy. MARGARET BRENNAN: The president just announced that the head of labor statistics is being fired because of the weak jobs report, claiming the data was faked. AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: You know, even last year during the campaign, there were enormous swings in the jobs numbers. And so it sounds to me like the president has real concerns, you know, not just based on today's, but everything we saw last year. You want to be able to have somewhat reliable numbers. There are always revisions, but, sometimes, you see these revisions go in really extreme ways. And it's – you know, the president is the president. He can choose who works in the executive branch. MARGARET BRENNAN: Let me ask you about Canada, which is our second largest – largest trading partner. The president increased tariffs to 35 percent. It applies, though, to just about 10 percent of what Canada sells here. Why bother to do this now in the middle of negotiations? AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: So – so, I would say, first of all, early on, the president imposed a 25 percent tariff on Canada, and that was really about fentanyl and border issues, right? It's – it's a separate regime from the reciprocal tariff. And what did Canada do in response? You know, they talked about helping at the border. And I'm not – you know, I'm not a – the drug czar or anything. But what I do know, as the trade guy, is that Canada retaliated. The only other country in the world who retaliated on tariffs was the Chinese. And so if the president's going to take an action, and the Canadians retaliate, the United States needs to maintain the integrity of our action, the effectiveness, so we have to go up too. MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you're talking about the things that the former Prime Minister Trudeau put in place, not the current prime minister? AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: And are – and are still in place. MARGARET BRENNAN: Are still in place. AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: Right. MARGARET BRENNAN: But the current prime minister has held off largely on retaliation here. That's the guy you're negotiating with and his team. So what's the strategy here? And aren't you worried that this will hurt the broader free trade deal if you truly do want to renegotiate it next year? AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: I'm not concerned that it's going to complicate things with Canada. Our view is, the president is trying to fix the terms of trade with Canada. And if there's a way to a deal, we'll find it. And if it's not, we'll have the tariff levels that we have. MARGARET BRENNAN: So I hear you drawing distinctions when you say, I'm the trade guy. I'm not the drug czar. AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: Correct. MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm the trade guy. I'm not handling these other things. But the president is kind of blending all these things together, because he cited fentanyl once again when it came to tariff – to the policy with Canada. He also said on social media: "Canada's decision to back statehood for Palestine is going to make it hard for us to make a trade deal." How does that have anything to do with financial and trade agreements? AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: The president of the United States has his foreign affairs power where he can – he can manage relations under the Constitution with foreign countries. Congress delegated to the president the ability to take economic action in response to national emergencies in the International Economic Emergency Powers Act. And, for example, the Treasury Department, they have a number of sanctions where they can actually cut off a country's trade with the United States, prohibit goods, cut them off from our financial system for geopolitical reasons. So the fact that they can do that, almost certainly the president can do something that's not as expansive and just – and just put a fee on those goods, which is a – which is a tariff. MARGARET BRENNAN: So let me ask you about Brazil, because the U.S. has a trade surplus with Brazil. That means, you know, we sell them more than we buy from them. So it doesn't seem to be consistent here, when you have the president put 50 percent tariffs on Brazil, one of the highest of any countries. And at the same time, the president is bringing up things that have nothing to do with trade when he's justifying them. He sent a letter to the current government complaining about the prosecution of his ally Bolsonaro, who is – who allegedly staged a coup when he lost the last election. The president called it a witch-hunt. This seems politically motivated and not about trade. AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: There's a 10 percent tariff on Brazil because we have a surplus with them. That's the reciprocal tariff. And then there's a 40 percent tariff that the president has chosen to do under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act… MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: … like we would do any sanction where we see geopolitical issues. The president has seen, in Brazil, like he's seen in other countries, a misuse of law, a misuse of democracy, what one might call lawfare. It is normal to use these tools for geopolitical issues. I mean, sanctions, we've been using them for years with all kinds of countries, including countries we like. MARGARET BRENNAN: You view tariffs and sanctions as the same? AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: They're just different in degree. I mean, tariffs are actually lighter than a sanction. A sanction, you're cutting off a country from your financial system. You're prohibiting trade with them. A tariff, you're allowing trade. You're just putting a fee on it. It's a – it's a lesser step than sanctions. MARGARET BRENNAN: But now you have moved – you have moved far away from dealing with the deficit. AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: Well, the deficit has a 10 percent tariff. MARGARET BRENNAN: Now you are talking about politically motivated trade actions here. I mean, the president sent a letter to President Lula saying the tariffs are due in part to Brazil's insidious attacks on free elections. Why are you trying to influence a criminal trial of an ally of President Trump? AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: The president of United States, historically, whether it's a Democrat or Republican, they have used IEEPA to impose sanctions for all kinds of geopolitical reasons in all kinds of countries. Sometimes, it's countrywide. Sometimes, it's specific to certain, you know, individuals, and often foreign leaders and foreign officials. So this is not – this is not way outside the market. MARGARET BRENNAN: When it comes to trade, the big deal that is pending out there is, how is the president going to deal with China? There's an August 12 deadline. And if that deadline is not met, you have said tariff levels could snap back to above 80 percent. Is that deadline going to slide? AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: So that's what's under discussion right now. I would say that our conversations with the Chinese have been very positive. We have discussions at the staff level, at my level. You know, President Xi and President Trump have had conversations. MARGARET BRENNAN: They said that it's sliding. The Chinese said it's sliding. AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: That's something we're working toward. That's what we talked about. And so… MARGARET BRENNAN: So you're not there yet? AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: And so – so they want to do that. We're working on some technical issues, and we're talking to the president about it. You know, I think it's going in a positive direction. You know, I'm not going to get ahead of the president. But, you know, I don't think anyone wants to see those tariffs snap back to 84 percent. MARGARET BRENNAN: Did you get any commitments in those two days of talks in Stockholm? AMBASSADOR JAMIESON GREER: So, yes, we did. Yes, we talked about – and I won't go into detail, because they're, you know, confidential conversations between two – two governments, but they really focused on rare earth magnets and minerals. China has put a global control on the world. And so for the United States, we're focused on making sure that the flow of magnets from China to the United States and the – and the adjacent supply chain can flow as freely as it did before the control. And I would say we're about halfway there. (End VT) MARGARET BRENNAN: You can find our full interview with Ambassador Greer on our Web site, and our YouTube page. We will be right back. (ANNOUNCEMENTS) MARGARET BRENNAN: And we're back with Bank of America CEO Brian Moynihan. Good morning, and thank you for being here with us. BRIAN MOYNIHAN (CEO, Bank of America): It's good to be here again, Margaret. Hope you're doing well. MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I'm hoping you can give us some clarity here on what's going on with the economy. Your Bank of America economists say no rate hikes this year and no recession. Is that still the case after Friday's jobs report? BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Yes, it's still the case. And that's a – less growth than they would have had six, nine months ago, and reflects the impact of the tariff war and the trade and all that. And – but they still think we continue to grow. And we're growing at a slow rate, say 1.5 percent this year, a little more next year, and a little more the year after that. But it will take inflation – for the Fed to get inflation out of the system really through the end of '26 into '27, down to the 2 percent level. And that's why they have the Fed holding. What they believe is, sort of in the middle of next year, the Fed will start cutting and bring the Fed funds rate closer to what would be a more normal rate, around 3 percent, 3.5 percent. MARGARET BRENNAN: So, even though we saw this really kind of astounding dissent by two members of the Fed… BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Yes. MARGARET BRENNAN: … saying, we do need to move on interest rates, your prediction from your economists is that that's not appropriate at this time? BRIAN MOYNIHAN: They don't think it's – they're going to move. Now, the market says they're going to move in September, maybe twice this year. MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: The market was at seven times one point this year. Now they're down to two. Then they're down to one. Now they're up to two. This is going to move around, but the reality is, two things people should really keep in focus. One is, until the inflation is out of the system, the Fed is going to be a little – very careful. And that's what they said. And then, secondly, the rate we're going to go to is a rate that is more normal than pre-global financial crisis, more of a 3 percent, 3.5 percent rate, which actually means the American economy is probably functioning better, frankly. MARGARET BRENNAN: So, on that point, "The Wall Street Journal," we were reading in, puts the tariff tax increase as costing $360 billion a year. That's one of the largest tax increases in history, they say. Do you believe the administration's arguments that it's really only foreigners who are going to pay the cost of this? Do you think economists are overstating the negative impact? BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Well, I think no one really knows, honestly, because this is a different regime than we've been in before. And there's – so they're trying to extrapolate from things from 50 years ago, when economies were a different structure. Our team thinks it's – has an impact on inflation of about, you know, 30, 40 basis points. MARGARET BRENNAN: Meaning adding to prices people are paying. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Yes, adding to the inflation rate in the United States. But we need to back up. What the real impact right now is the new Trump administration coming in had four or five policy areas they were really going to go after, having learned in the four years they had to move very quickly. Those were around trades and tariff, immigration and taxation and deregulation. What businesses – and I just was in the Midwest with a bunch of businesses – they're all trying to do is figure out what the answer will be so they can go ahead and make their plans for '26. So the activity that's slowed down has more to do with people just trying to figure out the answer. It doesn't mean every answer is acceptable, but most answers are. So what do they have answers on? Obviously, the tax bill getting done. That's a good answer for business, because it makes the rates permanent. What's the second thing they have an answer on? They have an answer now on the range of trade possibilities. And so, as they think about the trade possibilities, they sit there and say, tariffs might not be worse than X. They see some deals getting done, all of which is good work. What they don't have an answer on is deregulation. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Yes, new regulations have stopped, but they are hoping for more deregulation, so that will help their business models going forward. And then the last is immigration. What will immigration really settle in like? And that's what they tell us. So they're not using their lines of credit. They're not – the indications from them are, they're being a little more cautious, really waiting for some answers. MARGARET BRENNAN: Businesses aren't hiring either, we saw in this jobs data on Friday. It was the worst three months for job growth since the pandemic. Your firm, when I was reading the analysis, points to a number of different factors, and one of them is artificial intelligence and the adoption of that impacting hiring. How dramatically is it reshaping the job market? BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Well, I think this is sort of a question of almost a glass half-full/half-empty type of thing. So the impact… MARGARET BRENNAN: No pun intended. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Yes, exactly. (LAUGHTER) BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Sorry about that. MARGARET BRENNAN: No. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: But the impact of technology on human work content as a percentage of productivity has been huge. In our company, at – in 2010, when I started with the management team, we had 285,000 people. We have 212,000 people today. That was the impact of technology. We're bigger, more customers, more transactions, more reports to the government, more data, et cetera. So the impact has always been huge. A.I. gives you a place to go that we've never been able to go before. In other words, they're jobs that take text, think about it, and produce it, many, many jobs in our company, our research team. Now you're able to maybe use a machine to enhance that activity. So we believe that people who harness A.I. for their benefit are going to be very successful. The – my teammates who harness A.I. for their benefit are very successful. It's nervous-making for young kids now, saying, will the jobs be there for me? MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Then I say, look back historically. America has a lot more people working here. And think about the amount of technology that came in over the last 50 years, and we have twice as many people working in this country as we did 50 years ago, twice as many. And the population has only gone up by about a third. So think about that dynamic as it finds its way through. That's the glass-half-full part of it. But it will have an impact. I don't think it's impacting a lot right now, because many companies are just trying to learn how to use it. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Technology is impacted, and A.I. gives it a place to go it hasn't gone so far. MARGARET BRENNAN: So we're talking about all the unknowns and why it's kind of hard to model things right now. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Exactly, yes. MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Friday, the president fired, as you know, the head statistician that comes up with these jobs numbers and presents them to the public. The former head during the first Trump administration came out in her defense… BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Yes. MARGARET BRENNAN: … and said, this is – this is without merit, and it undermines credibility of data. Are you concerned by this firing? And do you feel there is political pressure here? BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Well, I think that's more politics. And I know I'm in Washington, D.C., and that's what we're supposed to talk about. MARGARET BRENNAN: Government data is – is… BRIAN MOYNIHAN: But the reality – the reality is, the data… MARGARET BRENNAN: … hugely important to modeling, as you know. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: It's 2025. It's 2025. And the data should be able to be – they use surveys and things like that, which, frankly, just aren't as effective anymore. So, if you look at the rate of people who respond to their surveys, it's down from 60 percent level to 50 percent level. You know, we don't use surveys as aggressively. We do – we watch what consumers really do. We watch what businesses really do. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: They can get this data, I think, other ways. And I think that's where the focus ought to be. How do we get the data to be more resilient and more predictable and more understandable? Because what bounces around is restatements. And that was one of the largest restatements going back five or seven years into the pandemic. MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: Five years in the pandemic. That creates doubt around it. And so I think the key is, let's get – let's spend some money. Let's bring the information together. Let's find where else in the government money is reported. We report millions and millions of data points to the government every day. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. BRIAN MOYNIHAN: The data is out there somewhere. MARGARET BRENNAN: Finally, back in January, you were at Davos. President Trump talked about Bank of America. (Begin VT) DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): Many conservatives complained that the banks are not allowing them to do business within the bank, and that included a place called Bank of America. This conservative – they don't take conservative business. And I don't know if the regulators mandated that because of Biden or what. (End VT) MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you want to respond to the allegation that conservatives are not being allowed to do business with your bank? BRIAN MOYNIHAN: We have 70 million consumers, and we're the biggest small business lender. So, that's not – the issue they're focused on is, the regulators' impact on this industry. And you heard Senator Scott talk about this, this week, this reputation, this after-the-fact look that you banked X, and now, after the fact, you're going to say X didn't turn out to be what you thought. So we look at it. We look at it based on risk. People may feel those decisions are made for some other reason, but we always make it on what's best for our company, what's best for the client. MARGARET BRENNAN: Are there – are there industries you're uncomfortable doing business with? BRIAN MOYNIHAN: No, we do business with… (CROSSTALK) MARGARET BRENNAN: Guns, oil and gas, tobacco, all of it? BRIAN MOYNIHAN: We do business with all those industries. Individual companies, because of credit decision stuff, that's different. But the reality is, is that, if they gave us clarity for the regulatory thing and avoid the second-guessing, that would be helpful. And I think that's what the president was pointing out, if you listen to him. MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Brian Moynihan, thank you for giving us some insight into the data you are seeing. Face the Nation will be back in a moment. Stay with us. (ANNOUNCEMENTS) MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to the Canadian minister for U.S.-Canada trade, Dominic LeBlanc, who joins us this morning from Moncton, Canada. Good morning to you. DOMINIC LEBLANC (Minister for Canadian U.S.-Trade): Good morning, Ms. Brennan. MARGARET BRENNAN: You were just here in Washington negotiating. And while the talks are officially continuing, you left town without a deal, and you left town with now what is a 35 percent tariff on goods. How much of a setback was the president's decision to do that while you are still at the table? MINISTER DOMINIC LEBLANC: So we were obviously – obviously disappointed by that decision. We believe there's a great deal of common ground between the United States and Canada in terms of building two strong economies that work well together. That's been the history of the 40-year free trade agreement that goes back to President Reagan. We were pleased the United States is respecting the terms of the USMCA agreement. That's vital, we think, to the cost of living and affordability certainly in the United States. It's true in Canada as well. So we're continue to do the work. We left always with a better understanding of the American concerns in the trading relationship. Ambassador Greer, Secretary Lutnick engage with us in constructive, cordial conversations. So we're prepared to stick around and do the work needed. We think, Ms. Brennan, that the economies of both countries are strengthened when we do things together. The trading relationship between Canada and the United States is unlike other partners. One description which I – which I thought was very apt, we don't sell things to each other, as much as we build things together. And that's why it's difficult in this relationship when so much is integrated. MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. MINISTER DOMINIC LEBLANC: But we remain very optimistic. MARGARET BRENNAN: But – but you heard Ambassador Greer say, Canada – because Canada retaliated to the initial tariffs all the way back in April, when Prime Minister Trudeau was in office, you're paying the price now, even though you have a new government in place. If that's the issue, why not make that concession and pull back? MINISTER DOMINIC LEBLANC: So, Prime Minister Carney, our new prime minister, has, we think, built a very businesslike, respectful relationship with President Trump. We think that's obviously very important to Canada and we think to the United States. We're dealing with – take, for example, the steel sector in Canada. It's a strategic importance to national security in Canada, as it is for President Trump and the American economy. We now have a situation where there's a 50 percent tariff. We're the biggest steel export market for the United States. MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. MINISTER DOMINIC LEBLANC: We have a 25 percent tariff. There's a 50 percent tariff when we want to sell something into the United States. So, effectively, we're blocked from doing that. But the national security interests of Canada requires that we have a viable steel and aluminum sector. And my conversations with Secretary Lutnick and others are that therein lies an example where, if we do the right work together – we have, Ms. Brennan, the toughest rules of any country dealing with Chinese dumping into Canada. We have melt and pour tracing so that products coming from other countries with Chinese steel can't be dumped into the Canadian market. So we're looking and advancing ideas where we can do that work with the United States, at the same time ensuring that our economy continues to have sectors vital to the economic future of Canada. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. MINISTER DOMINIC LEBLANC: But that's not in contradiction to President Trump's national security objectives in the United States, of course. MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I want to talk to you more about this idea of the so-called fortress North America to take on China and some of the specifics of the dispute on the other side of this commercial break. Please stay with us. We will have more questions for Minister LeBlanc shortly. We will see you in a moment. (ANNOUNCEMENTS) MARGARET BRENNAN: And we will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation, including an interview with the head of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, Dr. Mehmet Oz. And the Democratic governor of the state of New Mexico, Michelle Lujan Grisham, will join us. Stay with us. (ANNOUNCEMENTS) MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION. We return to our conversation with the Canadian minister for U.S.-Canada trade, Dominic Leblanc. Minister, we were just talking about some of the sectoral tariffs, the metals. American automakers, GM, Ford, Stellantis, they have all said that these tariffs are hurting their profits. The 50 percent metal tariffs, which use Canadian aluminum, the secretary of the Treasury was talking about those just the other day, they're see the impact here in the United States. A bit of a backfire in some ways. Do you see room for maneuver on these? Are they willing to negotiate with you on those tariffs? DOMINIC LEBLANC (Minister for Canada-U.S. Trade): Ms. Brennan, we – we hope so. And as I say, we're encouraged by the conversations with Secretary Lutnick and Ambassador Greer, but we're not yet where we need to go to get the deal that's in the best interest of the two economies. But your example is a good one. Canadian aluminum companies massively supply the American market. And by putting a 50 percent tariff on aluminum from Canada, you've increased the price of a whole series of goods. The automobile sector again is an example where there's been deep integration. We're the biggest customer of U.S.-made automobiles. Heavily, heavily importing into Canada, light and heavy-duty trucks. Fifty percent of the cars that we have finished in Canada and sell to the United States are made up of American parts. So, therein lies a perfect example where instead of tariffing one another, or President Trump, for his national security reasons under his Section 232 tariffs, wants to have a strong domestic steel, aluminum, automobile sector. Well, so does Canada. And we – we understand and respect totally the president's view in terms of the national security interests. In fact, we share it. And what we've said to our American counterparts is, how can we structure the right agreement where we can both continue to supply one another – MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. DOMINIC LEBLANC: In a reliable, cost effective way that preserves jobs essential to the American economy, but the same thing is true obviously in Canada as well. MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, are there any plans for the two leaders to speak? I saw President Trump said your prime minister called him Thursday and they just never connected. I mean are tensions that high? And given the changing justification for the tariffs, do you really feel like you're negotiating with the other side in good faith? DOMINIC LEBLANC: Sure, we do. Of course we do. As I say, the conversations have been informative, constructive, and cordial. I would expect the prime minister will have a conversation with the president over the next number of days. That's certainly my plan again with Secretary Lutnick, recognizing that we think there is an option of striking a deal that will bring down some of these tariffs, provide greater certainty to investment. We, Ms. Brennan, we passed in Canada our version of the president's one big, beautiful bill, it's called the One Canadian Economy Act, which we think will unlock up to $500 billion of investment in Canada for things like pipelines, port infrastructure, mines. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. DOMINIC LEBLANC: All of which offer huge opportunities to American businesses as well. MARGARET BRENNAN: Well – DOMINIC LEBLANC: So, we think there's a great deal – a great deal to work on together. MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Minister, we'll see if you can get one. We'll be right back. (ANNOUNCEMENTS) MARGARET BRENNAN: Change is coming for the country's Medicaid system as part of the enactment of the big, beautiful bill. To help us understand what's ahead, we turn now to the administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, Dr. Mehmet Oz. Good morning. Welcome to FACE THE NATION. DR. MEHMET OZ (Administrator, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services): Thank you. MARGARET BRENNAN: You've got a lot of work ahead. I want to start on drug costs. The president put this 25 percent tariff on India. A big drug producer. The president's trade deal with the E.U. puts a 15 percent tariff on imported medicines from Europe. How do you stop the drugmakers from passing along those costs to people on Medicare and Medicaid? MEHMET OZ: Well, the president's letter on Thursday, for most favored nation pricing, is a good example of that. And he's been working on this tirelessly since the first administration. And just to put this in context for many of the viewers, about two-thirds of bankruptcies in America are caused by healthcare expenses. About a third of people when they go to the pharmacy, they leave empty handed. They can't afford the medication. So, the president has said, enough global freeloading. We've been covering much of the development costs for new drugs to cure cancer, do other things with lots of other illnesses that are life- threatening. Isn't (ph) it time for the American public to understand that we should not be paying three times more for the exact same medication in the same box, made in the same factory. So, the president is saying, equalize it out. Let's use a model that worked, for example, for external threats, that's what NATO did. Everyone has to pay a little more. We'll pay extra too. But we won't pay a lot more than everybody else so they actually have to raise their – their – if you cut contributions, in this case to an internal threat, which is illness, we'll pay a little less in America that way more Americans can afford these medications and it's a fair system for the entire globe. MARGARET BRENNAN: So, this was declared in these letters that were sent out to 17 pharmaceutical companies this past week and it calls for extending that to Medicaid drug prices. Is that intended to offset what will be, you know, cuts to Medicaid? And do you know, you know, if the companies are actually going to follow through on this? Like, how do you actually strong arm them into doing it? MEHMET OZ: Well, just get the numbers correct. We're putting 200 billion more dollars into Medicaid. So, we're actually investing in Medicaid. MARGARET BRENNAN: At a time when costs are going up. So – MEHMET OZ: Costs are going up, but there's been a 50 percent increase in the cost of Medicaid over the last five years. So, I'm trying to save this beautiful program, this noble effort to help folks, giving them a hand up. And as you probably gather, if Medicaid isn't able to take care of the people for whom it was designed, the young children, at the dawn of their life, those at the twilight of their life, the seniors, and those who are disabled, living in the shadows as Hubert Humphrey said, then we're not satisfying the fundamental obligation of a moral government. And this president has said over and over that he believes that it is the wise thing and the – and the noble thing to help those who are vulnerable. And every great society does that. And we're going to as well. So, we're going to invest in Medicaid, as is required, but we want an appropriate return on that investment. One thing that Medicaid patients should not face are drug prices they can't afford. MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. MEHMET OZ: Because then – MARGARET BRENNAN: How do you enforce this with the pharmaceutical companies? MEHMET OZ: Well, the – the pharmaceutical companies, if you sit them down quietly, Margaret, and we've done that, and say, you went into this business at some point because you cared about people. I know there's many out there shaking their heads, but that is actually the truth. People go into healthcare, whether they're pharmaceutical companies or insurance companies or the PBMs or anybody in the space, evidence (ph), the CMS, the most impressive thing to me in my new task that the president's appointed me to is the remarkable quality of the people within the organization. Just unbelievably talented. They went into this job because they care about healthcare and about people. Somewhere along the lines people forget, they put numbers ahead of patients. And when that happens, then you start running into problems. So, we went to the pharmaceutical companies and we said, you appreciate this is not a fair system. We should not be paying more in America, three times more, for your products than you charge in Europe. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. MEHMET OZ: They get the joke. They understand the reality of this problem. They're engaging with us. We're in the middle of those negotiations. MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. MEHMET OZ: The president has a unique power to convene. We've done it with dealing with prior authorization, this heinous process where patients feel like they're, you know, trying to get care from a doctor, everything's being done except all of a sudden the – the arm of insurance comes in and stops the whole process for unknown reasons, for week, sometimes months. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. MEHMET OZ: Your – the insurance companies representing 80 percent of the American public got together and they said, because we pushed them, we're going to deal with this. We can do the same, I believe with the pharmaceutical industry, with most favored nation pricing. MARGARET BRENNAN: Let me ask you about the changes that are coming because of this new law to Medicaid, which is jointly administered between the feds and the states. There are major reductions to federal healthcare spending here. One of the changes are these work requirements. It's about 20 hours a week, volunteer or work, to qualify for healthcare. What is the guidance you are giving to states on how to implement this? Because in this economy, things are more complicated. Uber driver, independent contractor, how do they show they work their 20 hours a week? MEHMET OZ: Last weekend I was at the National Governor's Association, with Secretary Kennedy, who has been a big advocate of work as well. And every Democratic president, and Republican president, has said that the foundation of a healthy welfare system, of a social system of support, is work. MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but I'm – but I'm asking how you actually implement that and register it so that people who are working do qualify and they don't get caught up in paperwork because they didn't file something on time, that kind of thing. MEHMET OZ: Right. As long as we're OK that people should work and would want to work, and it's not just work, it's community engagement. They can go get education, right? MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. MEHMET OZ: They can take care of family members. MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. MEHMET OZ: They can contribute in other ways. But work's a great way of doing it. It can get you out of poverty if you can find jobs and elevate yourself. There have been efforts to do this in the past, but they haven't been able to achieve what we can achieve because we have technologies now and we have invested already, as soon as the bill was signed, began pilots to try to demonstrate that we can actually do this correctly. We have pilots now in Louisiana and in Arizona. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. MEHMET OZ: In both cases, within seven minutes, you can click on where you're working – you mentioned Uber. You're an Uber driver. You click that button on your phone. It just takes you to your payroll provider. Let's say it's ADP. We then ask your permission, can we connect with this payroll provider to – to demonstrate what you've actually been able to work and earn over the past month. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. MEHMET OZ: This also, by the way, confirms your eligibility. But there's a bigger benefit here. Once you do that, you're in, you're done. However, what if we take it one step further, Margaret? What if we go beyond just proving that you tried to work, to actually saying, you know what, you didn't work enough but we can actually help you by connecting you through employment office. MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you're still figuring out the technology, but isn't there an end of December deadline for a lot of these things to be figured out, and how do you make sure that people don't get kicked off because, in the state of Georgia, which already had work requirements, they have really struggled to make this work. MEHMET OZ: Well, a couple of things. It's not the end of December. It's the end of December a year from now. And Georgia is apples and oranges. Georgia had a program only for people under the poverty level and, for those people, if they wanted, they could elect to come into a system to help them get jobs. There have been 50,000 reduction in head count of uninsured people in the overall program in the last five years. Overall, Georgia, 2 million less uninsured people. So, Georgia is using a lot of tactics, and they're going in the right direction. I would argue that if you have confidence in the American people and their desire to take the offer to try to get a job if we challenge you to that, and, remember, if you're an able-bodied person on Medicaid – MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. MEHMET OZ: You're spending 6.1 hours watching television or leisure time. So, you don't want that – MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the Kafa (ph) Health Policy found 92 percent of adult Medicaid recipients already are working or they have the carve out because they have to have caregivers or they have to do other things. MEHMET OZ: They're fine. All they have to do is – there will be a simple app. If you're already carved out, that's super simple. If you're supposed to be – if you're able-bodied and you're supposed to be working, we want to help connect you to the job market and get you into work. We have twice as many jobs available in America as people seem to want them. MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. MEHMET OZ: The foundation of work is not just about fulfilling eligibility. The goal of healthcare insurance is to catalyze action in the right direction, to get you healthier, to give you agency over your future so you recognize you matter and you should have a job there for – to go out and change the world. MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure. So, there's a drug addiction problem in the country. How are those changes going to impact people who are on Medicaid in states like Kentucky, in states like West Virginia? MEHMET OZ: In many instances there are carveouts for folks who need – who have substance use disorder problems. There are programs to support – MARGARET BRENNAN: How do they prove that? MEHMET OZ: Well, they can either – MARGARET BRENNAN: Is that in the app? MEHMET OZ: Yes, it will be in app. And the app, again, if we're being – but this is being developed by the United States Digital Service led by Amy Gleason, who is a wonderful technologist. She and I were with the president and Secretary Kennedy and the head of the – the czar for A.I. in this country on Wednesday talking about overall how we're going to change the use of health technology in America. We've got to get into 2025 with health technology, as is true in every other sector. If you're watching the show right now, you could also have been streaming media. You could take an Uber somewhere, ride share. You can do an Airbnb. Technology should make the system more efficient. We should have confidence that it will also allow us to do what we all agree is possible. If the whole challenge to a work requirement is that you don't have confidence in our ability to accomplish it, that's a separate question, because I do have confidence in the American people and we have confidence we can pull this off. Look at the passport system, Margaret. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. MEHMET OZ: Right now you can go and get a passport in two weeks without having to go to the post office, send pictures in, all that's gone. It's fixable. Let's use technology. MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm still confused on how someone who is in the throes of substance abuse is going to use an app to say I'm in the throes of substance abuse every week to file online, but – MEHMET OZ: Well, when they go – when they go in to get their help for their substance abuse treatment, assuming they're going for help on that, they can also get enrolled in – and those requirements can be fulfilled. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. MEHMET OZ: We want to talk to them in as many ways as possible. It's not going to happen just because we put an app out there. You – you have social workers, other folk – elements who care a lot about this population who are coming together. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. MEHMET OZ: But they have to have some mechanism to report back. That just has not been done well. MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, and this is incredibly detailed, and that's why we wanted to have you on. I have so many more questions for you on rural hospitals and – and some of the other criticisms. I have to leave it there for now but thank you, Dr. Oz. MEHMET OZ: Can I give you 30 seconds on rural hospitals? Because this is important. You have 7 percent of Medicaid money going to rural hospitals. We're putting $50 billion. The president wants this. The congress wants this. It will make a massive dent (ph). MARGARET BRENNAN: There are a lot of questions about how you're going to dole that out and whether you have already made promises. Do you have any specifics for us? MEHMET OZ: Yes, we – we – it's going to be – they'll get the applications in early September. MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. MEHMET OZ: The – the – the money is designed to help you with workforce development, right sizing the system and using technology to provide things like telehealth that can change the world. MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. MEHMET OZ: Imagine if we can change the way we think about the delivery of health and make it more about getting people healthy so you can thrive and flourish and be fully present in their own lives and as Americans. MARGARET BRENNAN: Dr. Oz, we'll leave it there. We'll be back in a moment. (ANNOUNCEMENTS) MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn to New Mexico's Democratic Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham. She joins us from Santa Fe. Governor, two out of five New Mexicans are on Medicaid. You've got a lot of rural hospitals. Have you figured out how to implement everything Dr. Oz just laid out? GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM (D-NM): Absolutely not. There is no real way to implement this. It's more paperwork for everyone. It's more paperwork for federal government, for state governments, for county governments, for local hospitals, for independent providers. And you know what Americans really hate, Margaret? When you go to your primary care physician, and you spend 20 minutes sitting at a chair, not even on the exam table, while they are inputting data into a computer. So, this doesn't make any sense. We should be a society and a country that is connecting people to healthcare providers. I think the one thing that Dr. Oz represents, that's a fair representation, is, we should be healthier as Americans. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: All right. And we need to be moving out of poverty. We need drug prices, we should talk about that, to come down. So, go after insurance companies. Do manufacturing here. Make sure we can negotiate fair prices. Let states do that. Because I guarantee you, we'll do a better job than the federal government. And lastly, get people early easy access. Today, more than half, or about half, our small businesses don't even offer healthcare coverage. So, you can get a job, but now what? MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. Well, you said, though, in your state, because, as a governor, you're going to have to figure this out. GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: Yes. MARGARET BRENNAN: You have reserve cash from some oil and gas revenues, as I understand it, that have been put aside. Doesn't that show it is possible for the federal government to shift more responsibility back to the states? That's the argument conservatives are making. GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: They are. And it's temporary. There is no way any state, including this one, which, frankly, I am really proud of, we are in really good financial shape. That takes planning and effort. You know, our job projections continue to be met and exceed, unlike the federal jobs report, which is going in the opposite direction. So, I don't know where all these jobs are going to be in this anemic economy. I mean, it's so bad, with – the last time it was this bad, I was in college. And let me tell you, that was a very long time ago. And so, yes, temporarily, we can do that. But you can't do it over the long haul. The loss minimally to New Mexico over less than a decade is between $12 billion and $13 billion. And when, not if, rural hospitals and local providers close their doors, I can do this better than any other state. The last governor completely canceled behavioral health. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: Six years later, we are still reeling from trying to rebuild. We put a billion dollars into behavioral health just this last legislative session. It is not so easy to rebuild something out of nothing. MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the $50 billion rural healthcare fund under this Republican law is supposed to give people the – your – states like yours the ability to come and say, we need this extra cash. Are you going to have to ask for that? GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: I'm going to ask for every dollar the federal government has put aside anywhere that benefits a New Mexican. So, you've got $50 billion, that's $1 billion for each state if it was even. Do you know how much money it would take to shore up rural hospitals? More than a billion. And to put that in perspective, let me do this. It's a billion just for behavioral health. It's a billion plus just to keep people's coverage. It's another billion for prescription drugs. It's a billion dollars for rural provider delivery investments. And that's only 50 hospitals. You have hundreds of hospitals, hundreds, 400 rural hospitals across America that will shutter. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: So, that's the number, at (ph) it is. We are – how do we pick these rural hospitals? And if you pick a southeastern rural hospital in New Mexico, what about the rural hospital in western New Mexico? MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: Economies fail. People have to move away. You don't have any OBGYN care. MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: That whole area collapses. And they are reducing rural healthcare delivery by about $134 billion. So, the $50 billion is just to make someone, somewhere feel like they recognize that this is a disaster. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: $900 billion out of Medicaid is catastrophic. Straight up. MARGARET BRENNAN: Governor, we ran through a lot of material here. I have more questions for you. But very quickly, can you tell me, you deployed the National Guard to counter unrest in New Mexico. How is that different from what the president did in California? GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: Well, they're not policing. They're doing the back-end work so that trained community policing and members of that training, right, those local police officers, they're on the streets. What we have in this country is a shortage of police officers. What I have in New Mexico is a partnership. So, they're doing all of the – they answer all of the emergency calls. They handle all the traffic clearance when we've got a crash. And it is working. We're beginning to see more productive fentanyl, drug-dealing high-end arrests than we did without The Guard. And I'm really proud of that work. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: This is about partnering and leveraging, not about indiscriminately going after individuals who have not committed serious crimes. MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. Governor, thank you for your time today. GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM: You're welcome, Margaret. MARGARET BRENNAN: FACE THE NATION will be right back. (ANNOUNCEMENTS) MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to the war between Israel and Hamas. Our Debora Patta went with the Israel Defense Forces into Gaza last week. A rare visit for journalists. She filed this report. (BEGIN VT) DEBORA PATTA (voice over): Hunger has forced an impossible choice in Gaza, risk gunfire or starvation. "They shoot constantly," said this teenager. "This boy was standing next to us, and he was killed." Hundreds have been killed near the U.S.-funded Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Aid hubs controlled by the Israeli Defense Forces, which denies it fires on desperate crowds. But under global pressure, the IDF aloud more U.N. supplies in this past week, and took us to an aid collection point just inside Gaza to prove they are not deliberately starving Palestinians. DEBORA PATTA: The IDF has brought us here to demonstrate that, as far as they're concerned, their responsibility for delivering aid stops right here. DEBORA PATTA (voice over): But look at what happens in this U.N. footage as it tries to deliver that food. DEBORA PATTA: It' kids. It's children. DEBORA PATTA (voice over): Shots landing right in front of desperately hungry Palestinians. In this World Food Programme video, one of their trucks is looted by people so crazed with hunger, they say, they'll do anything to get something to eat. Inside Gaza, there are still 20 living hostages who have been held for 667 days, including Rom Braslavski and Evyatar David. Hamas released new propaganda footage of David looking so skeletal, his brother Ilay fears he is on the brink of death. ILAY DAVID, BROTHER OF HOSTAGE EVYATAR DAVID: Hamas is using Evyatar in one of the most horrific and calculated campaigns of cruelty imaginable. DEBORA PATTA (voice over): According to our recent poll, three out of four Israelis want the hostages freed in exchange for an end to this war. (END VT) MARGARET BRENNAN: That's our Debora Patta reporting from Israel. Thank you for watching. I'm Margaret Brennan. (ANNOUNCEMENTS)
