Canada seeks tariff exemptions as Donald Trump demands ‘completely open markets'
The statement comes as Canada's cabinet point-person on U.S. trade talks, Dominic LeBlanc, travels to Washington for the second time in recent days for what Prime Minister Mark Carney described Monday as an 'intense' phase of negotiations before this week's deadline.
Speaking Tuesday on U.S. television network CNBC, Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick said Trump is ready to impose his threatened tariffs and 'move on' unless deals are reached by Friday. Lutnick also said the U.S. has rejected offers from several countries, which he didn't name, that fall short of the access Trump wants for American exports.
'Many, many countries had made us OK offers to open their markets — you know, 50 per cent, 30 per cent … The president said, 'No, no. I want them open,'' said Lutnick.
'So now the price of a deal with the United States of America is black and white: completely open markets.'
Trump has argued that the U.S. needs tariffs to wrest manufacturing and investment from other countries, and to correct unfair balances where the U.S. buys more from other countries than it sells to them. In Canada's case, Trump has complained about limits to dairy imports, a digital services tax that Carney has since cancelled, and concerns about fentanyl, border security and the number of U.S. banks operating in Canada.
Last week, Trump described the talks with Canada as 'not really a negotiation' and suggested Canada could simply face tariffs set unilaterally in Washington. Carney later told reporters in Prince Edward Island that talks with the U.S. have been 'difficult' because Ottawa's negotiators are 'fighting for Canada.'
On Tuesday, sources who spoke to the Star on the condition that they were not identified because they are not authorized to speak about the negotiations said the talks are challenging because any progress that is made vanishes the next day when the Americans appear to change their minds.
There is sense from those at the table that the U.S. isn't able to convey its specific objectives to the Canadians on a consistent basis, said one frustrated insider.
But the Canadian team is holding out hope that direct dialogue between Trump and Carney will break the impasse.
Trump's latest tariff threat against Canada, detailed in an open letter to Carney earlier this month, is to impose a 35 per cent import duty on Canadian goods starting Aug. 1.
The U.S. president sent similar letters to dozens of other world leaders, threatening to finally impose the 'reciprocal' tariffs first detailed in his 'Liberation Day' announcement in April. At that time, Trump held a large placard for the cameras and announced a bevy of tariff rates the U.S. would impose on much of the world to overcome alleged trade unfairness.
Trump has also threatened to impose a 50 per cent tariff on copper imports. According to the
federal government
, more than half of Canada's copper and copper-based product exports — worth more than $4.8 billion — went to the U.S. in 2023.
Canada, however, is among countries facing a host of additional U.S. tariffs. These now included 50 per cent duties on steel and aluminum and a 25 per cent tariff on automobiles.
Trump also imposed 25 per cent tariffs on Canadian products and 10 per cent tariffs on energy and critical minerals, which the U.S. linked to concerns about the deadly drug fentanyl and illegal immigration. However, on March 7, goods that comply with the Canada-United States Mexico Agreement (CUSMA) were exempt from those import duties.
A report from RBC Economics,
published in April
, estimated that about 86 per cent of Canadian exports should be able to enter the U.S. without any tariffs, thanks largely to the CUSMA exemption, which leaves steep import duties on Canadian autos (25 per cent), steel and aluminum (50 per cent).
David Paterson, Ontario's envoy to Washington, said Tuesday he could not predict whether Canada is getting closer to a deal this week. He stressed that a top priority is preserving the
exemption
from Trump's tariffs that cover a large portion of Canadian exports to the U.S., since they comply with CUSMA. Crediting Premier Doug Ford with helping to ensure a broad layer of Trump's tariffs didn't apply to CUSMA-compliant trade, Paterson said the government is likely striving to preserve that exemption ahead of Friday's deadline.
'Keeping that (exemption) is, in our view, one of the most important things to sustain,' Paterson said.
Noting that Trump recently made trade deals with Japan and the European Union, Paterson said it is important for the Canadian side to look at what other countries are agreeing to. He also stressed that American officials are juggling talks with dozens of other countries that are potentially facing tariffs on Friday. 'You can imagine the premium on their time,' he said, describing the talks as a 'new mechanism of discussion that we've never seen before.'
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The Hill
9 minutes ago
- The Hill
Trump's broad tariffs go into effect, just as economic pain is surfacing
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump began levying higher import taxes on dozens of countries Thursday, just as the economic fallout of his monthslong tariff threats has begun to create visible damage for the U.S. economy. Just after midnight, goods from more than 60 countries and the European Union became subject to tariff rates of 10% or higher. Products from the European Union, Japan and South Korea are taxed at 15%, while imports from Taiwan, Vietnam and Bangladesh are taxed at 20%. Trump also expects the EU, Japan and South Korea to invest hundreds of billions of dollars in the U.S. 'I think the growth is going to be unprecedented,' Trump said Wednesday afternoon. He added that the U.S. was 'taking in hundreds of billions of dollars in tariffs,' but he couldn't provide a specific figure for revenues because 'we don't even know what the final number is' regarding tariff rates. Despite the uncertainty, the Trump White House is confident that the onset of his broad tariffs will provide clarity about the path of the world's largest economy. Now that companies understand the direction the U.S. is headed, the administration believes they can ramp up new investments and jump-start hiring in ways that can rebalance the U.S. economy as a manufacturing power. But so far, there are signs of self-inflicted wounds to America as companies and consumers alike brace for the impact of new taxes. What the data has shown is a U.S. economy that changed in April with Trump's initial rollout of tariffs, an event that led to market drama, a negotiating period and Trump's ultimate decision to start his universal tariffs on Thursday. Economic reports show that hiring began to stall, inflationary pressures crept upward and home values in key markets started to decline after April, said John Silvia, CEO of Dynamic Economic Strategy. 'A less productive economy requires fewer workers,' Silvia said in an analysis note. 'But there is more, the higher tariff prices lower workers' real wages. The economy has become less productive, and firms cannot pay the same real wages as before. Actions have consequences.' Even then, the ultimate transformations of the tariffs are unknown and could play out over months, if not years. Many economists say the risk is that the American economy is steadily eroded rather than collapsing instantly. 'We all want it to be made for television where it's this explosion — it's not like that,' said Brad Jensen, a professor at Georgetown University. 'It's going to be fine sand in the gears and slow things down.' Trump has promoted the tariffs as a way to reduce the persistent trade deficit. But importers sought to avoid the taxes by importing more goods before the taxes went into effect. As a result, the $582.7 billion trade imbalance for the first half of the year was 38% higher than in 2024. Total construction spending has dropped 2.9% over the past year, and the factory jobs promised by Trump have so far resulted in job losses. The lead-up to Thursday fit the slapdash nature of Trump's tariffs, which have been variously rolled out, walked back, delayed, increased, imposed by letter and frantically renegotiated. The process has been so muddled that officials for key trade partners were unclear at the start of the week whether the tariffs would begin Thursday or Friday. The language of the July 31 order to delay the start of tariffs from Aug. 1 said the higher tax rates would start in seven days. On Wednesday morning, Kevin Hassett, director of the White House National Economic Council, was asked if the new tariffs began at midnight Thursday, and he said reporters should check with the U.S. Trade Representative's Office. Trump on Wednesday announced additional 25% tariffs to be imposed on India for its buying of Russian oil, bringing its total import taxes to 50%. A top body of Indian exporters said Thursday the latest U.S. tariffs will impact nearly 55% of the country's outbound shipments to America and force exporters to lose their long-standing clients. 'Absorbing this sudden cost escalation is simply not viable. Margins are already thin,' S.C. Ralhan, president of the Federation of Indian Export Organizations, said in a statement. Import taxes are still coming on pharmaceutical drugs and Trump announced 100% tariffs on computer chips. That could leave the U.S. economy in a place of suspended animation as it awaits the impact. The president's use of a 1977 law to declare an economic emergency to impose the tariffs is also under challenge. The impending ruling from last week's hearing before a U.S. appeals court could cause Trump to find other legal justifications if judges say he exceeded his authority. Even people who worked with Trump during his first term are skeptical that things will go smoothly for the economy, such as Paul Ryan, the former Republican House speaker, who has emerged as a Trump critic. 'There's no sort of rationale for this other than the president wanting to raise tariffs based upon his whims, his opinions,' Ryan told CNBC on Wednesday. 'I think choppy waters are ahead because I think they're going to have some legal challenges.' Still, the stock market has been solid during the recent tariff drama, with the S&P 500 index climbing more than 25% from its April low. The market's rebound and the income tax cuts in Trump's tax and spending measures signed into law on July 4 have given the White House confidence that economic growth is bound to accelerate in the coming months. As of now, Trump still foresees an economic boom while the rest of the world and American voters wait nervously. 'There's one person who can afford to be cavalier about the uncertainty that he's creating, and that's Donald Trump,' said Rachel West, a senior fellow at The Century Foundation who worked in the Biden White House on labor policy. 'The rest of Americans are already paying the price for that uncertainty.'
Boston Globe
9 minutes ago
- Boston Globe
Trump's broad tariffs go into effect, just as economic pain is surfacing
Get Starting Point A guide through the most important stories of the morning, delivered Monday through Friday. Enter Email Sign Up Despite the uncertainty, the Trump White House is confident that the onset of his broad tariffs will provide clarity about the path of the world's largest economy. Now that companies understand the direction the U.S. is headed, the administration believes they can ramp up new investments and jump-start hiring in ways that can rebalance the U.S. economy as a manufacturing power. Advertisement But so far, there are signs of self-inflicted wounds to America as companies and consumers alike brace for the impact of new taxes. What the data has shown is a U.S. economy that changed in April with Trump's initial rollout of tariffs, an event that led to market drama, a negotiating period and Trump's ultimate decision to start his universal tariffs on Thursday. Advertisement After April, economic reports show that hiring began to stall, inflationary pressures crept upward and home values in key markets started to decline, said John Silvia, CEO of Dynamic Economic Strategy. 'A less productive economy requires fewer workers,' Silvia said in an analysis note. 'But there is more, the higher tariff prices lower workers' real wages. The economy has become less productive, and firms cannot pay the same real wages as before. Actions have consequences.' Even then, the ultimate transformations of the tariffs are unknown and could play out over months, if not years. Many economists say the risk is that the American economy is steadily eroded rather than collapsing instantly. 'We all want it to be made for television where it's this explosion — it's not like that,' said Brad Jensen, a professor at Georgetown University. 'It's going to be fine sand in the gears and slow things down.' Trump has promoted the tariffs as a way to reduce the persistent trade deficit. But importers sought to avoid the taxes by importing more goods before the taxes went into effect. As a result, the $582.7 billion trade imbalance for the first half of the year was 38% higher than in 2024. Total construction spending has dropped 2.9% over the past year, and the factory jobs promised by Trump have so far resulted in job losses. The lead-up to Thursday fit the slapdash nature of Trump's tariffs, which have been variously rolled out, walked back, delayed, increased, imposed by letter and frantically renegotiated. Advertisement The process has been so muddled that officials for key trade partners were unclear at the start of the week whether the tariffs would begin Thursday or Friday. The language of the July 31 order to delay the start of tariffs from Aug. 1 said the higher tax rates would start in seven days. On Wednesday morning, Kevin Hassett, director of the White House National Economic Council, was asked if the new tariffs began at midnight Thursday, and he said reporters should check with the U.S. Trade Representative's Office. Trump on Wednesday announced additional 25% tariffs to be imposed on India for its buying of Russian oil, bringing their total import taxes to 50%. He has said that import taxes are still coming on pharmaceutical drugs and announced 100% tariffs on computer chips, meaning the U.S. economy could remain in a place of suspended animation as it awaits the impact. The president's use of a 1977 law to declare an economic emergency to impose the tariffs is also under challenge. The impending ruling from last week's hearing before a U.S. appeals court could cause Trump to find other legal justifications if judges say he exceeded his authority. Even people who worked with Trump during his first term are skeptical that things will go smoothly for the economy, such as Paul Ryan, the former Republican House speaker, who has emerged as a Trump critic. 'There's no sort of rationale for this other than the president wanting to raise tariffs based upon his whims, his opinions,' Ryan told CNBC on Wednesday. 'I think choppy waters are ahead because I think they're going to have some legal challenges.' Advertisement Still, the stock market has been solid during the recent tariff drama, with the S&P 500 index climbing more than 25% from its April low. The market's rebound and the income tax cuts in Trump's tax and spending measures signed into law on July 4 have given the White House confidence that economic growth is bound to accelerate in the coming months. As of now, Trump still foresees an economic boom while the rest of the world and American voters wait nervously. 'There's one person who can afford to be cavalier about the uncertainty that he's creating, and that's Donald Trump,' said Rachel West, a senior fellow at The Century Foundation who worked in the Biden White House on labor policy. 'The rest of Americans are already paying the price for that uncertainty.'
CNN
10 minutes ago
- CNN
Are Respectability Politics Over? - The Assignment with Audie Cornish - Podcast on CNN Podcasts
Audie Cornish 00:00:01 I'm Audie Cornish, and this is The Assignment. At this point, it's clear Democrats are taking a different approach in the age of Trump 2.0. Jolanda Jones 00:00:09 I'm a lawyer. A part of my practice is criminal defense work. There is no felony in the Texas Penal Code for what he says. So respectfully, he's making up some shit. Audie Cornish 00:00:21 This is Jolanda Jones. She's a Texas state rep and is among that group of Democrats who fled their legislative session to shut down votes on new Republican redistricting maps. And he has no Jolanda Jones 00:00:33 legal mechanism, and if he did, subpoenas from Texas don't work in New York, so he gonna come get us how? Subpoenas in Texas don't work in Chicago, he's gonna come and get us, how? Audie Cornish 00:00:43 Jones is also running for Congress, and with her blonde, short afro, hoop earrings, and the mantra, authentic and unafraid, she's the opposite of, say, a Kamala Harris. Similarly, Texas Democrat Jasmine Crockett got the National Magazine profile treatment. You may already be familiar with her more viral work. Jasmine Crockett 00:01:05 'If someone on this committee then starts talking about somebody's bleach-blonde, bad-built, butch body, that would not be engaging in personalities, correct? A what now? Speaker 4 00:01:16 If you could tell Donald Trump anything tonight, what would you tell him? Jasmine Crockett 00:01:22 I would tell him to grow a spine and stop being Putin's hoe. Audie Cornish 00:01:29 'The Atlantic called Crockett a Democrat for the Trump age, embracing a coarser style of politics already all the rage in the GOP. So how, why did the multicultural generation of politicians that followed Barack Obama dump respectability politics and embrace the fighting words of Donald Trump? Stay with us. The politics of respectability are not, well, respected these days. It originated in post-Civil War and World War II racial uplift movements. The idea was that pristine presentation and education and good breeding would help black people be seen first as human and, later, worthy of civil rights. Today, young people brush it off as a kind of pull-up-your-pants scolding from political elders. The shift from respectability politics to the politics of dark, woke clapbacks is usually the kind of thing I would be asked on TV as the only black person on an all-white panel. Jasmine Wright 00:02:37 Now there's two. Audie Cornish 00:02:39 Now there are two. This is Melik Abdul. He's a Republican political analyst. And journalist, Jasmine Wright. She works for the NOTUS newsletter here in Washington. She covered Kamala Harris in both the 2020 and 2024 campaigns. And she's young, like young enough that she actually couldn't vote when Barack Obama ran for president in 08. Melik Abdul was old enough to vote for Obama, which he did twice. But in 2016, he left the Democratic Party and voted for Trump. Which he's done three times now. Notice that I situated both in relation to Barack Obama, because I don't know, it just seems like any conversation about modern respectability politics starts with him. One of the things people forget is that when the Obama family came out, was presented to America, there was a conversation about the presentation themselves, who they were. And I remember the New Yorker cover, which was supposed to be satire Melik Abdul 00:03:39 The gun. Audie Cornish 00:03:40 Where it showed the couple in the White House where Obama was depicted as kind of Osama, like in Muslim garb. And Michelle Obama was depicted as having an afro and black panther gear, which is like the furthest possible thing from this woman who went on to tell us when they go low, you go high, I think. So the reason why I set the table with that is even at the time of Obama, There was this conversation about like. What would make you acceptable? What would make not threatening as black people in public? And we were all like reckoning with that in real time. Melik Abdul 00:04:21 And reckoning with that in real time is a very good way to describe it. And when I say I still consider myself the founder and forever CEO of the Obama nation, like how much I went hard for Barack Obama just cannot be described in words. And I remember when he had to talk about race. Audie Cornish 00:04:42 He had to get a formal speech about it, yeah. Melik Abdul 00:04:43 Yeah. Yeah. And it was related. I think that was around the Jeremiah Wright time. And we remember the comments that Jeremiah Wright made. Jeremiah Wright 00:04:51 No, not God bless America, God damn America. The Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human beings. Barack Obama 00:05:03 I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments. But because Reverend Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I didn't think it was appropriate to leave the church. Melik Abdul 00:05:18 And even me, as a huge Barack Obama supporter, I was saying to myself, whoa, whoa. What is, what are we doing here? But this was one of the things that he had to do. Jasmine Wright 00:05:28 Yeah, but I feel like black people were like, hmm, we'll accept that. Yeah, I mean, the community was like, this has to happen so that he could be president. So we're fine with this. You know, I think that at the same time that you can assign Obama blame for saying that I think the community largely accepted that and moved on because that was the price of him ascending to power and him marking this new chapter. For black people in this country. So I think a lot of the things that, yes, he did do, but the community also let him get away with it. Audie Cornish 00:06:04 One of the things about the Jeremiah Wright incident is obviously there was like bigotry there, people were talking about et cetera. I think the other thing was the undercurrent of anger that Obama, who later it became a joke about his disposition, was distancing himself from the angry black man trope. Whatever the heck Jeremiah Wright was saying, that was not a figure that was going to be acceptable. In the world of respectability politics in which you are trying to cross over, you're trying to appeal, you are trying to show you are different and not a threat. And it's weird to be looking back at that now in a moment where you have more and more name calling, like vicious commentary, like the kind of tough language that we were all like, oh, how dare you, you know, at that time. Seems like a typical day on social media now. Melik Abdul 00:07:01 'Oh, absolutely now. And with Jeremiah Wright, it was part of a sermon where he was talking about us bombing Hiroshima, and he talked about a lot of the things that America was doing. And in that he said, God damn that America. And he was talking about America that had done all of those things. It was interpreted in a much different way. And I agree, Jasmine is right. That was part of the protection that we gave Barack Obama. Jeremiah Wright, bro, you're messing it up for Barack Obama, so we just went along with that. And by the time you got to Kamala, and I think that Kamala Harris and Cory Booker are polar opposite from Barack Obama because I was a believer of Barack Obama like I believed him. And with Kamala-Harris, I understand that there is a. Woman component to that, but also a black woman component to that. So she is very buttoned up because that was the standard. And I would say not just for black women, but for women in politics in general, when you come here to Washington, DC, you are buttoned-up. And even though you may be progressive in your voting, you are very conservative in how you present yourself. And that was out of necessity. I don't think that same necessity is there now, which is how we get to a Jasmine Crockett. She not caring about, you know, toeing any type of respectability line. The thing is whether or not it actually works for her, I'm not convinced. Audie Cornish 00:08:27 Right. And Jasmine Crockett, of course, is the sophomore congresswoman from Texas. And she's one of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation, because there was this big profile of her in the Atlantic where they talked about her being a Democrat for the Trump age. But some of the things they were pointing out is that in a way, she reached national prominence because, like, she's really also good at insulting Republicans and insulting Trump. And some of those things have come back to bite her. Famously, she called Marjorie Taylor Green, she accused her of having a bleach blonde bad built butch body. Say that six times. But if you can't, I think they sold them as t shirts. She's called Trump, Putin's hoe, a dictator, a wannabe Hitler, and even said that she's called them so many things she's running low on inventive insults. What she's also said is like, in a way she argued that she's speaking the language of the moment, that she is. Punching through in this very crowded marketplace of the attention economy. And I thought, oh, I can't imagine Kamala Harris doing any of this. Jasmine Wright 00:09:39 Yeah, I mean, I think just to go back to the Colbert interview, right? Kamala Harris 00:09:44 Recently, I made the decision that I just, for now, I don't wanna go back in the system. I think it's broken. Jasmine Wright 00:09:52 That is the version of Kamala Harris that we saw in 2024. And you're right, I think in this economy, even though it's only been, you know, eight or nine months, I think we have moved past that. And the country has moved past that in part dragged by Donald Trump. I don't think it's just, Audie Cornish 00:10:05 And we say attention economy, we should say specifically, like that ability to command attention and earned media that Trump pretty much blew everyone out of the water when he came out of scene in doing that. Jasmine Wright 00:10:17 Exactly. And I don't think it's just black people that have moved further away from respectability politics. I think it is actually all people involved in this political moment, in part because that language that they used just two years ago doesn't work anymore. I don t even know if Tim Walz calling Republicans weird would work in this moment right now because it is not fiery enough. I think that the Vice President, you know, she has consistently been careful, she has consistently wanted to use language that at times feels crowdsourced, maybe because it is, but because it offends the least, but says the most for her. I think that she has constantly had this pressure on her shoulders about what it is to be the first black woman in various positions that she's had, and it has caused her to, in some ways, second guess, a lot of what you would want to say in the public arena. And for a lot of people, that feels inauthentic, that feels not candid enough for what they want from her. I remember somebody telling me once that when she is speaking, you know, at a panel or in these speeches, and it feels like she's wandering through her thoughts, what some people now call word salads, it's because she is literally choosing the right words to say in her brain at the same time that she is speaking. And so this is somebody who believes in this idea so deeply that your words matter and that any inaccuracy in your words is telegraphed to the most amount of people in the worst way possible. I don't think that many other people right now have those same careful considerations about what they're saying. Audie Cornish 00:12:05 To your point earlier, it's not just a black politics thing. But in a way, that's why I wanted to talk about it because it has finally reached black politicians. So for a long time, we've seen the dirt bag left, which is where people are being like, ironic, I'm not really racist, I'm just saying this thing. Like it's part of a kind of a white movement in progressive circles. And then this year I was reading about dark woke, right? Which was the idea of like, for a Democratic party that had spent all its time, kind of what people would say, policing language around racial and gender politics. Now they were like, you know, we are gonna insult people too. We're gonna have fun too. We know how to have a laugh, we're not scold. I was reading this New York Times story about it and my favorite quote is this one where this former kind of digital director for the Wisconsin Democratic Party says, Republicans have essentially put Democrats in a respectability prison. And that an extreme imbalance in strategy that allows Republicans to say stuff that really grabs voters' attention, and we're stuck saying boring pablum. Melik Abdul 00:13:14 Yeah, you know, I'll say that social media is a just a cesspool like Twitter. It's just a Audie Cornish 00:13:21 Great review. Yeah. Melik Abdul 00:13:22 It has become financially profitable and it also gets you social media capital to be just as nasty as you want to be. And in this era of Donald Trump, and I use myself as a Black Republican, being moderate won't get you booked many places. That's why I mentioned I've been doing this for years. And so it doesn't matter how many times I've be critical of Donald Trump, which is often, or support Donald Trump. At the end of the day, there's nothing sexy about it. So the easiest thing that you had to do, whether you came from the Democratic Party or you just found Donald Trump in your politics is throw on a MAGA hat and you're gonna get booked on social media. Particularly I'm talking about conservative outlets like Fox News and others. Like I couldn't get on Fox News if I wanted to simply because I am not critical enough of Donald Trump and then I'm not supportive enough of Trump for them. So in this space, people want drama, they want nastiness and those are the things and you see and that's what Jasmine Crockett is playing to. Audie Cornish 00:14:31 Sorry Melik, but can I ask something that I've often wondered? People used to joke when Trump came around that like, oh boy, like you could not have a black candidate with three baby mamas and a trail of bankruptcies. Like respectability politics meant a bunch of people who have Donald Trump's same exact resume, persona and attitude are just completely like precluded from politics. Like you're not an option behaving this way. Melik Abdul 00:15:00 No, and that's totally right. And even looking back, I do say, you know, some of the things that I said, well, Barack Obama couldn't do that. But at the same time, I say, well, Barack Obama didn't try to do it. You know, he did. Audie Cornish 00:15:12 Could he have? Melik Abdul 00:15:13 He he did get some pushback. I remember. 00:15:15 No, I don't think he could have. No, no, I feel like all he did was sort of like play basketball and was like hey brother and like give dap around but like There's only so far he could go Melik Abdul 00:15:27 Yeah, we saw what Barack Obama did when it came to Henry Louis Gates. He got pushed back for telling the truth about a police officer acting stupidly. That's just what happened when you're arrested in the front door of your own home. We saw it again, which when he said that my my son could look like Trayvon Martin. If you listen, even to this day, the number of people who say that Barack Obama divided the country because he was all about race when he told the truth. So yeah, there are many things that Barack Obama would have gotten pushback, but I say this as somebody, you know, on the other side now, I also know that he didn't try. Like with Jasmine Crockett, she goes all in. Now we can say that she shouldn't be doing it. It's not an appropriate thing for her to do. But she's not concerned about how people view her because she's really speaking in this moment. And maybe what it is is that Barack Obama was the president who happens to be black, But I just think that things are much different now. But I don't think if another black candidate runs for office that they would be so restricted or they would restrict themselves in the same way. Audie Cornish 00:16:32 Let me let Jasmine jump in. I saw your finger up Jasmine, which is Jasmine Wright 00:16:35 'I think you can say that, but even now, I mean, Jasmine Crockett is continuously being called ghetto by both the right and sometimes the left being called hood. They view her as inauthentic because at one point maybe she talked with a little bit more respectability politics a few years ago than she is now. And so people are calling her out for potentially putting on errors. And so I think that there's a question to ask, and maybe this is not necessarily about black women, but it is about women in general, you know, or about both. But, you know, if you don't like the careful consideration that Kamala Harris displays, but you also don't, like the rambunctious, outwardly antagonistic, insulting appearance and all that kind of stuff that Jasmine Crockett displays, then where is the middle? What do people like? I think that Jasmine Crockett is is being rung through the ringer right now, and I'm not saying that that's good or bad, I'm just saying that people are consistently, Republicans are consistently even some Democrats behind the scenes are consistently ragging on her for this type of personality that she is putting forward saying, yes, that messages - this what somebody said in the Atlantic - yes, that messages well to some part of our base, but it's not for other parts of our base. And so I think that there is consistently this compartmentalizing of black women in the political spectrum. And it comes from both sides, both a Kamala Harris and a Jasmine Crockett. And so I think that maybe the answer is that the country doesn't know what type of black women they want. Audie Cornish 00:18:10 I'm talking with reporter Jasmine Wright and political analyst Melik Abdul. We'll be right back. To your point about people talking about her, I guess I'll call it code switching, like the woman has, you know, a JD in like three states and the federal government. She was in the Texas legislature. You know, at a certain point, she played whatever game it's very clear to be in these spaces, it's Texas for God's sakes. Jasmine Wright 00:18:42 And it doesn't necessarily fit into the boxes in which people believe that they should. I mean, I think that this is, I think you can call it code switching. I feel like there's probably a term that's like more aggressive about the way that she's going about it. But I think people have a lot of thoughts about Jasmine Crockett, and I don't think that they're necessarily positive. She obviously lost oversight. It's not just because of her personality. It could be because of experience and other things. But part of it is because of personality. And so I don't think that Audie Cornish 00:19:08 Being on a key committee, you mean, right? And I think she pointed out, look, Marjorie Taylor Greene, they put her out there. They're not like, oh, you're too much, go away. Jasmine Wright 00:19:18 Go away. She made a great point that Marjorie Taylor Greene acts a certain way and nobody, she said, in the Republican caucus actually likes Marjori Taylor Greene, these are her words. But she said they recognize her importance in the republican conversation and the republican movement. And so they put her on a bunch of important house committees. Democrats have not done the same for Jasmine Crockett, who I think she's basically saying that she fulfills the same. We have two examples from very two different sides of the pendulum here and neither are completely accepted in this new political moment that we have. And so my question is, what version of a black woman do politicians want to see? Because I don't think that it is either of these two right now. Melik Abdul 00:20:08 Yeah, so I'll say I think that Jasmine Crockett, so MTG appeals to a certain Audie Cornish 00:20:14 Well, no, no. Hold on a second. Can you answer that question that we're hearing here? Because a lot of black men have voted for Trump, right? Like a lot of black men disliked Kamala Harris for a variety of reasons related to policy. But there's also this right here. It's also this thing where like I, too, don't know what would be the version that would be acceptable even to black men in my cohort. Melik Abdul 00:20:44 Yeah, so if you think of, you know, I don't know the perfect answer to that, and a lot of that may be having to do with the fact that we haven't seen it. We could have talked about the person who would have become the first black president, but we wouldn't have probably assumed that that would be Barack Obama, just because you know different backgrounds. So I don't know when it comes to black women, because I haven't see it yet. Audie Cornish 00:21:08 Yeah, but there's so many black women lawmakers out there, like, that's not... Jasmine Wright 00:21:11 I disagree with this idea that we wouldn't know that Barack Obama would be the version of the first black president. I mean, if you just look at his credentials, if you look at this personality, that is a version of a black person who could be the first black president. He's so amiable. He is so willing to take on what people perceive as racist comments and flip them in kind. He so quick on his feet. He's so gregarious. I just don't know if that is, sure, we did. Audie Cornish 00:21:39 Yeah, that was not a resume anyone looked at and said, this person doesn't want to be president, right? Like he immediately wrote a book in the Senate, like. Jasmine Wright 00:21:47 He was in the Senate for four years talking so whimsically about what the nation could be under the correct president or presidential rule. So I don't know if I actually buy that, that we couldn't see that this is a person that could be our first black president. Melik Abdul 00:22:00 No, and what I'll say to that is that it wasn't until we saw him at the DNC convention, I think it was in 2004, that we saw a different representation of what a national Black politician would look like. Prior to that, it was those who were vested in the civil rights. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, those were like the archetypes. Until we saw Barack Obama, it's like, oh, wow. And that's why I mentioned Kamala. There are a number of Black politicians, black women, of course, who are out there. I think that the biggest problem for Kamala Harris is that she's not politically agile. And because she's not, she looks uncomfortable in these spaces. So where a Hillary Clinton or a Jasmine Crockett or any of these other women are able to pivot just on a dime. You throw them something, they're gonna throw something back at you. Kamala, Harris, where she's very thoughtful. And I think because Kamala Harris is not a natural. Audie Cornish 00:22:59 Yeah, retail politician. Retail, yeah. Melik Abdul 00:23:01 Retail. Yeah, a retail politician. That's what we see. And then unfortunately, she's judged, you know, by that. Audie Cornish 00:23:09 I had a few, like, moments because I have one foot in Gen X and sort of one foot in millennial and I was thinking about, you know, W.E.B. Du Bois and double consciousness and this idea that for a time you were conscious of how you were seen as a Black person. I see myself, I also know how other people are perceiving me and I have to modulate, curate. Try and align those things. Like our way of, at times, trying to make sure that what we are saying is being heard the way we are actually fricking saying it. And for her, that that is compounded in the national spot. Jasmine Wright 00:23:51 Yeah. I mean, it's like extrapolated to the millionth degree. I think somebody who has spent so much time watching her, covering her for, you know, six years, to your point of like not being politically agile. Yes, I agree. I think that Hillary Clinton, while she was a little bit, you know, maybe more specific on certain substantive, particularly when we're talking about foreign policy, maybe even on the economy, there were still consistent critiques. That she was a different person in private, that she a much more comfortable person in the private, and that what she was trying to display to the public never actually got there. I think that the former vice president is the same way. I have spent a lot of time with her. Audie Cornish 00:24:33 Kamala Harris would have been the perfect candidate for 1996 in terms of black candidates, right? Like a law and order black Democrat, totally quaffed, the smooth hair, like it was for that age. We are now in a different age and generationally, particularly on the left, but I would argue also on the right, people want something different because they have spent years watching social media. So you kind of want your politicians to be able to do it too. It's like the generational version of, to bring back George W. Bush, like would you want to have a beer with this person? Some of it is like, do you speak the language of the internet? Like, do you know how to clap back? If we're in this moment of dark woke, if we're this moment matching Trump's energy, then respectability politics has no place in this, right? And I reached out to a Democratic strategist, a black Democratic strategists to be like, hey, this is a story, would you want to be in it? And they basically were like, sorry, I'm the wrong person. I wish there was more respectability politics. I don't want to deal with these people. Talking about kind of young Democratic activists, like most sane people, who wants to be called names? Yeah. And I was like, I think people Are afraid of the youngs a little bit Jasmine Wright 00:25:59 I mean, the youth are snappy, they're going to get you. And I just say, you know, all this last thing about the vice president, but Kamala is somebody who can snap back as somebody who has been in private. She has snapped back on me multiple times, but I think it's just a fear of being perceived a certain way and part of being perceive to black, maybe. But yes, I think that there's a generational shift and I think what it requires of somebody the vice president's generation or somebody who maybe thinks like the vice president is this idea of radical honesty, like what people, particularly young people want as someone that can be transparently honest about what is happening in society and being able to relate that back to them in a way that is plain smoke spoken and in a way that feels authentic and candid. And I don't think that those three things are what people necessarily think about with somebody like. Vice President Harris, but it is something that people think about with Jasmine Crockett, even if it's not put in the most polished box. So I don't know if I have an idea of like who would be the best version of somebody who could fill what is not necessarily respectability politics, but maybe like the new evolution of it, which is being honest, being open, but also, you know, not taking crap from somebody. I don't know who that is, but I think that that's what people want. Audie Cornish 00:27:20 Maybe it's Republicans. I mean, Melik, when I think about the irony, when I look at the Republican side of the leisure, is that some of the, like, really fascinating young Black politicians out there, especially in Congress, they feel more like Obamas than Crockett's. Melik Abdul 00:27:37 'I think that that is just the more moderate to the extent it exists nowadays in the party. I think it's people who are much more moderate. We will never have another Donald Trump. You've seen many people try to be Trump-like and go on to lose over and over again. Audie Cornish 00:27:53 But why are they picking that model if you're in an era where Trump has built a coalition that does include more black and brown men, Why still present yourself in the model of the Obama era? Like why isn't there a version that is closer to what people are experiencing Melik Abdul 00:28:10 Yeah. So I wouldn't say the it's more of an Obama era or even respectability politics. I think this is just different politicians. Like Donald Trump is such a, and I keep going back to being a once in a lifetime, we'll never see someone as a, as combative, nasty when he wants to be as Donald Trump. Audie Cornish 00:28:30 But I don't think we're gonna be in a more moderate politic. I mean, not to be cynical as a reporter, but it just feels like that is over. I think I was reading a profile of Eric Adams and one of his like very key advisors. And she was quoted as saying like, when they go low, you dig for oil. And I was like, You know, it's done. It's done, like people are not playing the nice game anymore. And often when I hear the phrase respectability politics, it's from younger people as an insult. It is a little bit like, ugh. Jasmine Wright 00:29:14 It's basically them saying that people aren't being transparent. They can't really say what they want to say. Their delivery is boring, and it's basically untethered to the reality that they exist in now. It doesn't shape young people's lives in the way that it shaped people's life generations before us. They no longer feel tethered the idea that what they say has to be crowdsourced for approval, and they've also grown up in the age of Trump. Where they've seen one politician continuously be successful, also not adhering to this idea of respectability politics. Audie Cornish 00:29:50 'I mean, and also, I guess it's like no matter what you do, what's said of you will be the same, right? So one of the things about respectability politics, yeah, like it has its roots and sort of black feminism, 1800s, but the idea was like racial uplift. And if you behave a certain way, social codes that you adhere to, and to be clear, this came from black women in particular, when people look at the history of it. This was key to being seen as human. This was key, to navigating public space. This was the key to navigating politics when you're demanding the right to vote. Later on, during the civil rights period, if someone turns a dog on a person in a tie, the person who looks unhinged is the cop who turns the dog on the protester, right? Not the protestor. It was always trying to show dignity, even in extreme circumstances. And it feels like- for a younger generation that has not grown up with any of that concern. As you said, they've kind of grown up in the era of like, well, no matter what you look like or what you do, you could still be harmed in a police stop. You could still called low IQ by the president of the United States. Like, it doesn't matter. And as a result, they seem a little more nihilistic about that racial uplift ideology. Jasmine Wright 00:31:12 I mean, but I think that's also coupled with young people growing up in a time where we have high inflation and where access to college has been basically upended by this idea that you're going to just be saddled with student loans, no matter what you do, where you go for the rest of your life. That young people haven't been able to really purchase housing at a consistent rate since 2007. I mean I think then it's all coupled together with their economic reality. That nihilism is being fueled by the fact that they feel that their options are really dwindling and that they can no longer have the lives, the same lives that their parents had. So what do I care if I curse in public? And I think that one thing that if we look at the policy effect of respectability politics, it's that so often what people are looking for is just a straight and honest answer. And at times respectability, politics inhibits. You're not able to say the straight and honest answer. But any time that you talk about young people, you can never divorce this economic reality that they're living in, which is so much more different than what the grandparents have. Audie Cornish 00:32:19 Because you can't reach that Obama level in a way. Because it involves a house, a wife, a college degree. Yeah, exactly. Well, I think when it comes to whatever black and brown candidate that might come along, I also think what they won't need is an anger translator. If anyone remembers that joke from Key and Peele where the comedian is standing behind Obama being his real self, right? Like, I think. Whoever comes next in this generation of politicians, black and brown politicians, maybe they won't need that translator. Maybe they will get to be one person themselves. Yeah, I agree. Jasmine Wright and Melik Abdul, you can catch Jasmine's White House reporting at It's a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that's part of the Allbritton Journalism Institute. And Melik Abdul is a GOP strategist. I wanna thank you both for coming on the show today and I wanna think you all for listening. See you next week.
