The alleged Chinese spy found in Canberra

Australia Broadcast Center

10 hours ago

Sam Hawley: This week, a Chinese woman was charged with foreign interference, in this case, accused of spying on Buddhists in Canberra. Today, foreign affairs reporter Stephen Dziedzic on the details of the case and the growing cost of foreign espionage. I'm Sam Hawley on Gadigal land in Sydney. This is ABC News Daily.
News report: Australian Federal Police have charged a Chinese national with foreign interference, alleging she was trying to collect information on a Canberra-based Buddhist group for China's security agencies.
News report: The Australian Federal Police alleges the woman, an Australian permanent resident, was tasked with collecting information about the Canberra branch of Guan Yin Citta. She's been charged with one count of reckless foreign interference, which carries a maximum jail term of 15 years.
Stephen Nutt, AFP Assistant Commissioner: We allege the activity was to support intelligence objectives of the China's Public Security Bureau. This is the first time the AFP has charged a person with foreign interference that allegedly involves targeting members of the Australian community.
Sam Hawley: Stephen, the AFP allege they have caught a spy amongst us. Now, this is a Chinese woman. What do we know so far? What are police saying?
Stephen Dziedzic: Well, Sam, police are alleging that this woman is responsible for conducting, essentially what they're saying, an act of foreign interference, that she's covertly gathering information about a Canberra branch of a Buddhist association. It's not a well-known one. It's called Guan Yin Citta Dharma Door. And they say that she's been doing this since 2022, and that she's been trying to harvest information about this religious group. She's also accused of working with others to do this. So, essentially, police are saying that she's recruited other people or worked with other people who are also trying to collect information for the Chinese government in support of their intelligence activities to try and get information about this group. Now, we cannot name this woman because there's a temporary suppression order in place. But police say that she was essentially behind what was a fairly sophisticated operation to try and closely monitor this group in Canberra.
Stephen Nutt, AFP Assistant Commissioner: Foreign interference is a serious crime that undermines democracy and social cohesion. It is a crime carried out by a foreign principle that involves covert and deceptive conduct or threats of serious harm or menacing demands.
Sam Hawley: Mm. Alright. So, the matter has been before the court, and an Australian Federal Police informant alleged the woman was actually communicating with a Chinese security bureau.
Stephen Dziedzic: That's right. So, this security bureau isn't named, but presumably it's essentially a branch of the Ministry of State Security that's responsible for both external and internal security matters in the PRC. Now, they believe that this woman's been receiving what they've called taskings or orders from this public security bureau office through an encrypted app, and that was allegedly found on the woman's phone during a raid of her house last week.
Sam Hawley: Right. OK. But what else have police said about the woman's links to China?
Stephen Dziedzic: Well, this woman is still a Chinese national. She's a permanent resident in Australia, but at least according to the police, she's not a citizen of Australia. There's another very interesting link that police have put out as well. They've said in court that this woman's husband, who is apparently still in China, holds a position of what they've called a vice captain in a public security ministry in a Chinese province. They haven't named that province, and they haven't named the husband either. But there's more evidence there, according to the police, of fairly deep and personal links into China's vast security apparatus.
Sam Hawley: Mm. Alright. So, Stephen, she's accused of being tasked to gather information about a Buddhist association in Canberra, Guan Yin Sitta. What exactly is that, and why would China be interested in it?
Stephen Dziedzic: Yeah, this is a slightly confusing question to people, perhaps, who are outside the China-watching space. But, of course, you've got to remember the broader context here. China's government's an atheistic one. It's, in some ways, quite hostile to religion. It's certainly hostile, or at least wary, of religious groups that are operating within China. This group is one that Beijing considers a cult. It's effectively, according to various sources, either banned or outlawed in China.
Sam Hawley: Well, what happens in the courts now, then? Because there was some discussion, wasn't there, about whether or not she was a flight risk or not?
Stephen Dziedzic: Yeah, that's right. The woman's lawyer said she should be granted bail. We also heard, incidentally, that she visited the Chinese consulate in Canberra not long after her property was raided. So, China is very well aware of this case and is presumably watching it very closely. Presumably, the consulate and the embassy would be able to get her travel documents very quickly, if she wanted them, and if the embassy wanted to help her to leave. And so, the magistrate, for a range of reasons, basically refused bail, agreeing that she could be a flight risk. And, of course, the magistrate also said that if that did happen, if she managed to leave, then there was very little chance that she would probably come back, particularly given the fact there's no bilateral extradition treaty between Australia and China.
Sam Hawley: OK, so let's just leave that case there for the moment. But let's speak more broadly about the threats now against Australia that really have our agencies deeply worried, I think it's safe to say. We've had an update this week, haven't we, from Mike Burgess. He's the Director-General of ASIO. So, what's he been telling us?
Stephen Dziedzic: Look, Mike Burgess has been sounding the alarm on foreign interference for a number of years, but I think his tone was even more urgent in this speech.
Mike Burgess, ASIO Director-General: I believe that we as a nation need to wake up to the cost of espionage, which is more than just financial. We need to understand espionage is not some quaint romantic fiction. It's a real, present and costly danger.
Stephen Dziedzic: Mr Burgess said that China, Iran and Russia are three of the countries that are behind espionage, but he also said that Australians would be, quote, shocked by the number and also the names of the other countries that were also employing similar tactics.
Mike Burgess, ASIO Director-General: The obvious candidates are very active. I've previously named China, Russia and Iran, but many other countries are also targeting anyone and anything that could give them strategic or tactical advantage. These countries want to covertly comprehend our political decision-making and policy priorities, including our alliances and partnerships.
Stephen Dziedzic: Mr Burgess said there'd been 24 significant espionage and foreign interference operations that have been disrupted in the past three years alone. He said that was more than the previous eight. And he said that nation-states are spying at what he called unprecedented levels with unprecedented sophistication.
Mike Burgess, ASIO Director-General: ASIO estimates the threat from espionage will only intensify. It is already more serious and sophisticated than ever before. So our response must also be more serious and sophisticated than ever before.
Sam Hawley: And he obviously didn't name those other nations that we'd be shocked about.
Stephen Dziedzic: He didn't, no. I mean, it is worth noting...
Sam Hawley: Intriguing.
Stephen Dziedzic: ...There has been public reporting about other countries engaging in espionage in Australia, including countries very friendly with Australia, including India. So it's not surprising, in a sense, that countries that are friendly to Australia, even close partners, might engage in espionage. But Mr Burgess is obviously convinced the problem's getting worse.
Sam Hawley: Sure. And not only that, it's costing us a huge amount of money, isn't it?
Stephen Dziedzic: Yeah, $12.5 billion, according to Mr Burgess.
Sam Hawley: That's a year.
Stephen Dziedzic: That's in the 2023-24 financial year alone. Not only that, he said that was probably an underestimate, probably a huge underestimate, because it's not capturing all of the espionage that's gone undeclared, undiscovered, and is largely unwatched. So he says that the true bill could be even higher. Of course, it's worth remembering this bill is not just, for example, information stolen. It's also the money that the federal government has to plough into organisations like ASIO in order to ward off foreign interference and espionage. But it is, yes, an eye-watering figure, even if it is a conservative estimate.
Sam Hawley: And he did give some rather fascinating details, Stephen, about how far spies have actually gone to try to steal classified and commercially sensitive information. Just tell me about that.
Stephen Dziedzic: Yeah, there was one fascinating little anecdote he told. He mentioned what he called a sensitive horticultural research facility in Australia that was not that long ago, apparently, paid a visit by a foreign delegation from an unnamed country. And apparently, one of the members of this delegation was caught trying to take photos of sensitive research. That was stopped, and apparently, the images were deleted. But then that same official then apparently snapped branches off what Mr Burgess calls a rare and valuable variety of fruit tree in order to steal them.
Mike Burgess, ASIO Director-General: The delegate had snapped them off and smuggled them out of Australia. Almost certainly, the stolen plant material allowed scientists in the other country to reverse engineer and replicate two decades of Australian research and development.
Stephen Dziedzic: So, horticultural spying is probably... You know, it's a long way from a James Bond film, but Mr Burgess is saying this is a real example of what people are getting up to.
Sam Hawley: The Chinese woman we spoke about previously, she was arrested under these foreign interference laws. Now, they haven't been in place for that long, have they? But it's the third time that they've actually been used. Just tell me about that.
Stephen Dziedzic: That's right. 2018, they were introduced into law, and this is only the third time they've been used. The other two cases that we've seen before, a Victorian man who was charged in November 2020 and then subsequently found guilty, a New South Wales man charged in April 2023, they were facing very different allegations. In the case of the Victorian man, it was essentially political interference, trying to build up links with political figures in Australia that could be then exploited by the Chinese government. In the other case, the allegation is that information was being collected to feed back again to the Chinese government. This is different. This is about... This is actually a woman who's facing a charge of directly spying on and trying to gather information about Australians in Australia. Not only that, she's also a foreign national. The other two people who've been charged previously were both Australian citizens. So, in that sense, this is a bit of a landmark case. And unsurprisingly, the government has been keen to pounce on it. Tony Burke, the Home Affairs Minister, said immediately afterward that the government's message to people who were trying to threaten or interfere with the Australian community was very clear, quote, "'Our law enforcement and intelligence agencies will find you.'"
Sam Hawley: Yeah, our spies will find your spies. Right. OK. So, from your reporting, Stephen, is it clear whether or not the threat from China is actually getting worse at this point? Do we know?
Stephen Dziedzic: We don't know for sure, but all of the anecdotal evidence points to the fact it is getting worse. That is reflected not just in the language of people like Mike Burgess, but also, I think, in the language that the government uses, including privately when it discusses the scale of the threat. China has many reasons to spy on Australia. Of course, and as we know, it's not just China. It's broader than that. But as the sort of most well-resourced and high-profile country, it's worth zeroing in. There are many reasons for China to target Australia. And as it finds itself under increasingly acute pressure from the Trump administration, there are more incentives for China to look to gain what advantage it can from other Western nations. So, if you look at both the international dynamics driving this, the geostrategic dynamics, as well as the increasingly authoritarian internal dynamics within China, there are an awful lot of reasons to think that this might continue to get worse before it gets any better.
Sam Hawley: And none of that really bodes well, does it, for the relationship with China, which had seemed to be improving after Anthony Albanese's trip there.
Stephen Dziedzic: Yeah, that's true. But the government seems confident that it can balance these two things quite deftly. I mean, at some point, you're right. The gap between rhetoric and reality becomes unbridgeable and things may well start to break down. But I'm stealing a phrase here from Richard McGregor from the Lowy Institute, but it's a good one. Australia and China are basically embracing whilst fighting at the moment. On the one hand, you've got a roaring commercial relationship. On the other hand, you've also got this shadowy contest in the foreign interference space with both China and Australia pouring more and more resources into their intelligence agencies behind the scenes. But Australia remains comfortable that it can walk this very fine line with China, which is, of course, both our largest trading partner and our largest source of security anxiety. And this case, as well as what we've heard from Mike Burgess over recent days, illustrates that very, very powerfully.
Sam Hawley: Stephen Dziedzic is the ABC's foreign affairs reporter. This episode was produced by Sydney Pead. Audio production by Sam Dunn. Our supervising producer is David Coady. I'm Sam Hawley. Thanks for listening.