Latest news with #SamHawley
ABC News
6 hours ago
- Business
- ABC News
Alan Kohler on making housing a bad investment
Sam Hawley: Interest rates might be coming down, but house prices are, once again, heading in the other direction. Given there is a major problem with housing affordability, and there are so many people who can't even afford to enter the market, why on earth is that? Today, the ABC's finance expert, Alan Kohler, on how conditions are ripe for a housing price surge, just as they were back in the early 2000s. In other words, why history's repeating. I'm Sam Hawley on Gadigal Land in Sydney. This is ABC News Daily. Sam Hawley: Alan, interest rates are coming down and they could drop even further this year. So that should mean houses are more affordable for borrowers. But it's not that simple and you're going to explain to us why. Now, to do that, let's go back to the turn of the century. In 2001, the Reserve Bank was cutting rates just like it is now, wasn't it? Alan Kohler: Correct. Sam Hawley: What was going on back then? Alan Kohler: In 2001, the Reserve Bank cut interest rates six times that year. News report: Nervous anticipation for one of the Reserve Bank's most expected interest rate cuts, the sixth and last this year. Alan Kohler: And that was in response to the dot-com crash in the United States, which happened on basically in March of 2000. It continued for a while. The Nasdaq halved, more than halved. And there was a recession in the United States. The Reserve Bank was concerned that the Australian dollar would rise too much because of that, because obviously the US Federal Reserve was cutting interest rates in response to the recession. So the Reserve Bank of Australia cut interest rates in precaution, even though there was no recession in Australia. The economy did slow a bit. There was a bit of a fall in the share market, but not anything like what happened in the US. Sam Hawley: And the other thing that was happening back then was there was some pretty major policy changes, including the introduction of the capital gains discount and the return of a first home buyers grant. So just remind me of those policies at that time. Alan Kohler: Yes. So in 1999, the Howard Government appointed a business tax review committee, a panel of three businessmen to report on the business tax system. And what they wanted to do, what Howard and Costello wanted to do then, was to reduce the company tax rate from 36 to 30%. So they asked some businessmen to tell them whether that was a good idea. And well, they told them it was a great idea. Go ahead. But in the course of doing that, they also recommended a change in the capital gains tax regime so that instead of the capital gains tax being adjusted for inflation, they recommended a simple 50% discount, which the Howard Government duly applied. Peter Costello, then-Treasurer: Under the reforms which we announced today, a 50% reduction in the taxable gain, that is 50% of the gain is not taxable. Alan Kohler: And although it's the case that that didn't really change the amount of capital gains tax at the time because inflation was quite high. So actually, the 50% discount was roughly the same as the inflation adjustment for the average time that people were holding assets. What I think happened was that it changed the psychology of investing in property because everyone understands a discount, whereas nobody really gets inflation and certainly can't do it in their heads. Sam Hawley: So even if you don't understand capital gains tax, just understand that if it's 50% discount, that's a good thing. Alan Kohler: Exactly. Sam Hawley: If you're a homeowner, right? Alan Kohler: Precisely. And that added to negative gearing, which had been in place for a long time, to make investing in housing an attractive thing to do. The businessmen who recommended it thought that it would lead to Australia becoming a nation of share owners and buy the shares of their companies and drive the prices higher and lower their cost of capital. But that, in fact, didn't happen because people just want to invest in housing. And that's what happened. And as you say, also the Howard government reintroduced first homebuyer grants in 2000, which had been out of action for a while. The first homebuyer grant was in the 1960s under Menzies, but the Hawke-Keating government didn't do them and Howard reintroduced them. Sam Hawley: Okay, so rates are going down. There's these two major policy changes. And at the time, there was a simply huge rise in immigration. Alan Kohler: Exactly. And what caused that in around about 2005 was a change to the way foreign students were assessed in 2001. On July 1st, 2001, the system was changed. Up to that point, foreign students' visas were issued on the basis of either gazetted countries or non-gazetted countries. China and India were included in the non-gazetted countries and it was very difficult for students from those places to get a visa. After July 1st, 2001, that changed and became the same for everybody, which is the way it ought to be, of course. But that led eventually to a huge increase in students from China and India from the mid-2000s. And that led to a doubling and then tripling of net overseas migration into Australia. At the time. Sam Hawley: Wow. All right. So we get a pot and then we put all these things into it and we stir it around. So there's the capital gains tax, there's the first homeowner's grant, the rates are dropping and there's this massive increase in immigration. And when you stir it all around, you come out, Alan, with house prices rising. Alan Kohler: Yes. Well, so all of those four things that we've discussed added to demand from investors and migrants and so on. So there was a big increase in demand, but there was no response in supply. The government did nothing about increasing supply at the time. And the result was that for 10 years, between 2005 and 2015, there was a dire, big shortage of housing, an undersupply of housing for a decade, which really set the scene for a big increase in house prices. And what happened was that the house price to income ratio rose from between three to four times incomes, this is average incomes in 2000, to eight or nine times incomes at the end of that time. And that was a huge change in the way that housing related to people's incomes and also GDP of the there was a stop to immigration during the pandemic. And then post the pandemic, population growth has gone back to more than 2% per annum, which is what it was in the period after 2005. Sam Hawley: All right. So, Alan, that's the history of the skyrocketing house prices and how we ended up here. Now, today, interesting that we have exactly the same conditions. Alan Kohler: That's right. The Reserve Bank is cutting interest rates, probably not by six times, but by probably four or five times this year, possibly into next year as well. We've got first time buyer grants back on. We've got a big increase in migration. I mean, the Treasury forecast in the budget for this financial year, net overseas migration is 335,000. But in the first nine months of the year, it's already 360,000 and looks like being 400,000 this year. There's no targets on immigration, but there's a Treasury forecast and net overseas migration is going to well exceed the Treasury forecast. And of course, there's been no change in the capital gains tax discount because the Labor Party failed to win in 2016 and 2019, where that is their policy to reduce it 25%. All the conditions are in place for another rise in house prices. Sam Hawley: Exactly. So what are we seeing already and what do we expect to see then when it comes to the cost of housing in Australia? Alan Kohler: Between November last year and January this year, house prices actually fell by close to 1%. This is the national median price, having increased 17% in the previous 12 months or so. And since January, they've risen again by more than the increase in average wages over that period. News report: House prices are continuing to rise across the country, with experts predicting property values to grow between 6 and 10% by the end of the year. All the capitals rose more than 0.4 of a percent in May. That brings the national index 1.7% higher over the first five months of the year. Alan Kohler: House prices are already starting to rise in excess of the rise in incomes. And the thing is, you know, everyone says houses are unaffordable, which is kind of true, which you would think would mean house prices don't rise very much now, because if they're unaffordable already, then people can't afford them. But in fact, falling interest rates makes them more affordable. The determinant of affordability is the amount you can afford in terms of interest repayments or mortgage repayments. Really, a better measure might be time to save a deposit, because the problem is that deposits are becoming unreachable for a lot of people. So housing is becoming inaccessible. It's OK if you've got a deposit, because your parents have given you one, given you the money, but those who don't have access to some sort of provision of a deposit can't get into housing. And that's the problem. Sam Hawley: Yeah. There's just a certain number of people that keep buying properties and pushing the amount or the cost of properties up. I mean, there's enough people that can afford the properties because the property price keeps going upwards and upwards. Alan Kohler: Correct. The truth is that if you don't have a parent who can give you the money for a deposit or some other way of getting ahold of a deposit, as opposed to saving it, you're a renter. You cannot buy a house. That is the reality of the situation, particularly in Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne, but increasingly in Perth and Adelaide and Hobart as well, and also everywhere in Australia. I don't know what's to be done about it, really. Sam Hawley: All right. Oh, gosh. So, dare I ask you then, if you don't have the bank of mum and dad or any family members that can actually help you in this process of getting this massive deposit to buy a home, is there really no chance ever that you're going to land in the property market at this point? Alan Kohler: Well, there has to be a big shift in the value of housing versus incomes. Prices would need to go back to the sort of relationship to incomes that they were 25 years ago, which is three to four times instead of the current sort of nine or 10 times. And the only way that's going to happen is if house prices stay where they are for a while, like a long time, like 20 years. Now, that will only happen if there's an oversupply of housing for that period. Both the federal government and the state governments are all doing what they can. They're working hard. I know, you know, they're genuinely working hard to increase supply, but there's a problem. The trouble is that the construction industry doesn't have the capacity, partly because productivity is so low. In fact, the Committee for Economic Development in Australia, CEDA, released a report about construction productivity and why is it so low. And they do say in the report that we're building now half as many houses per worker as we did in the 70s. So that's fallen by half. But not only is productivity low, the number of workers is also in decline because the average age of builders tends to be quite high. They're all retiring and there's not enough apprentices coming through. The government is talking about increasing the number of tradies who they bring in as migrants, which is definitely what's needed. They're not talking about anywhere near enough of them coming in. And any way, the regulator of the industry is reluctant to recognise foreign qualifications in the construction industry. So, you know, there's a real kind of blockage of kind of productivity and number of people in the construction industry. I think it's going to be difficult to achieve the kind of oversupply of housing over the next sort of decade or two that is required. Sam Hawley: And Alan, while we're waiting for all these houses to be built, conditions are absolutely ripe for house prices just to keep surging. Alan Kohler: Yeah. And the governments, in addition to doing the work that they're doing on supply, which is good, they're also kind of doing short-term band-aid measures, including helping first homebuyers, either through help to buy schemes or grants and so on. And so that just tends to increase demand and increase prices, because a lot of those grants just end up on the price. So, yeah, look, I don't think it's particularly good news on the subject of housing. I'd like it to be different. And there's no big magic bullet. There's just going to be a lot of sort of small work, grinding work to be done. And, you know, the fact is we have to go through a period where housing is a really bad investment. Sam Hawley: Alan Kohler presents the Finance Report on the ABC's 7pm News. This episode was produced by Sydney Pead. Audio production by Adair Sheppard. Our supervising producer is David Coady. I'm Sam Hawley. Thanks for listening.
ABC News
a day ago
- Health
- ABC News
Erin Patterson's evidence about eating wild mushrooms
Sam Hawley: For a second day, the accused in the keenly watched mushroom murder trial has been questioned in court. Erin Patterson is on trial for murdering her former in-laws, Don and Gail Patterson, along with Gail's sister, Heather Wilkinson, with death cap mushrooms served at a lunch in 2023. She denies the charges. Today, Stephen Stockwell, co-host of the Mushroom Case Daily podcast, on Erin Patterson's testimony and the key evidence in the case so far. I'm Sam Hawley on Gadigal land in Sydney. This is ABC News Daily. News report: All eyes will be on the Victorian town of Morwell today as the woman charged over a fatal mushroom lunch returns to the witness stand. News report: Articulate and composed, wearing a favoured paisley shirt with her dark hair around her shoulders, Erin Patterson telling her story to the jury for the first time. News report: She's pleaded not guilty to three counts of murder and one of attempted murder over the Beef Wellington lunch served to four relatives at her regional Victorian home in 2023. Sam Hawley: Stephen, for the past six weeks, you've been covering this fascinating case and now we're at the point where Erin Patterson, the accused, who, of course, denies all of these charges, has taken to the stand. We didn't know, did we, that this would happen, so it was a bit of a surprise. Stephen Stockwell: Yeah, this is something we've been wondering about for weeks in this trial, whether or not Erin Patterson would get on the stand. Monday afternoon, as we were nearing the end of the prosecution case, we went through some agreed facts, that process finished, and Justice Christopher Beale, the judge presiding over this case, asked the defence what their plan was, if they were going to call any witnesses, and Colin Mandy, DSC, Erin Patterson's defence barrister, said they would call Erin Patterson. Sam Hawley: So, just tell me, before we move on to what she has actually said in the courtroom, how did she appear, Stephen? Stephen Stockwell: So, she was calm and she seemed confident. You know, she was answering the questions. You know, they were short answers. She wasn't going beyond what she was asked. She seemed confident, calm, and she's kind of maintained that over the last couple of days of evidence. There have been moments of emotion, though, when she's been talking about, you know, relationships with the Pattersons, her children, things like that. Sam Hawley: Mm, all right. And the questioning from her defence team, it's been really personal, hasn't it? Stephen Stockwell: Yes, it has. There was a conversation around her health, her body image, and there were moments there where she broke down discussing, you know, issues she's had with binge eating that no one knew about. You know, they were getting her, initially, in her evidence, to describe what her life was like in mid-2023. This is just before the fateful lunch. You know, the relationship she had with her estranged husband. Also, you know, her struggles with low self-esteem and body image as well. Sam Hawley: Yeah, and they really, you know, talked a lot about the several separations that she'd had with Simon Patterson and about a traumatic birth that she'd had with her son. Stephen Stockwell: Yeah, incredibly personal stories. And Gail Patterson and Don Patterson, these are her mother and father-in-law, travelled over to care for her. She gave birth to her son in Perth. So, other side of the country to where her in-laws were living in Victoria. And they travelled over to help her kind of settle and recover from the birth and, you know, settle into raising her son. And Erin spoke about how Gail had kind of helped her become a mother. You know, teaching her how to interpret the cries of her son and also just reminding her to enjoy the moments of being a mum. Sam Hawley: Yeah, all right. Well, Stephen, the defence, they also asked Erin about her claims of having cancer because the court has previously heard that she'd actually invited her relatives to that lunch to discuss a cancer diagnosis, but the court had also heard that she never actually had cancer. She was also asked about that by Colin Mandy, the defence barrister. Stephen Stockwell: Yes, she was. Colin Mandy put this to Erin Patterson quite directly. He said "have you ever been diagnosed with ovarian cancer?" Erin Patterson's reply was quite short. "No." Colin Mandy then took Erin Patterson to sort of a deeper level of questioning about this. He said "Have you ever been worried about having ovarian cancer?" and Erin Patterson said, "yeah, quite worried." You know, she talked about how she'd had a lot of symptoms. She'd been very fatigued. She had ongoing chronic pain. She'd put on a lot of weight in a short period of time and had been Googling her symptoms. And we also saw earlier in the trial screenshots of Google searches relating to ovarian cancer symptoms and the like. Sam Hawley: Mm. All right. Well, the court also has spent a fair bit of time previously discussing arguments that Erin and Simon had had over child support and school fees, and she was questioned about all of that as well. And also what came up during this defence questioning is a message she sent to her Facebook friends. Stephen Stockwell: So there's a couple of messages we've seen that Erin Patterson has sent to a group of friends that she had on Facebook. She raised these grievances about the family and she used some quite strong language. You know, she said "this f-ing family. I swear to f-ing god," saying she was sick of them. There was another message that was read out to the court. "I'm sick of this shit. I want nothing to do with them, so F them." And these messages were, you know, put to Erin Patterson. She was asked how she felt about those messages and she was incredibly remorseful about them. She was dabbing her eyes with a tissue at this point, quite emotional. And Colin Mandy asked her why she needed to write that and she said she needed to vent. She said it was either go into the paddock and shout at the sheep or talk to the sheep or talk to these women. And she knew that those women in the Facebook group, her Facebook friends, would rally around her. Sam Hawley: Stephen, then the defence questioning turned to mushrooms. Stephen Stockwell: Yeah, we heard Erin Patterson talk about how she developed an interest in mushrooms in 2020, during COVID. There was a period during the first COVID lockdown where you're only allowed out of the house an hour a day and she said she would force her children to go outside, get them off their screens and they would go to the Korrumburra Gardens or the Rail Trail. And that's when she first noticed mushrooms popping up along the side of the path she was walking around. And that's when her interest was drawn to them. She would see them in the garden. And then from that point, he asks if Erin Patterson always liked eating mushrooms. And she says, yes, they taste quite good. They're very healthy. And there were some that she'd found in a paddock that she picked and took photos of and put on a Facebook group to ask what they were. There were some that she was worried about that she wanted to avoid. But one mushroom, after a period of time, she realised it would be safe. These were field mushrooms and horse mushrooms. And over the process of several months, she led up to a point where she was confident in what they were. She cut a bit off, fried it with some butter, ate it and saw what happened. And they tasted good. She didn't get sick. Sam Hawley: And after that, Erin Patterson did concede in the court that the meal she cooked must have contained death cap mushrooms. And when she was asked, where did they come from? She said the vast majority came from a local Woolworths and some from a grocer in Melbourne. But the specific purchases of the mushrooms isn't clear in her mind. All right, well, Stephen, as we said, we're six weeks into this trial, but let's just step back for a moment and consider some of the key evidence that the court has heard up until this point. There's been more than 50 witnesses called by the prosecution, including the detective who led the initial police interview with Erin Patterson. What did we glean from him in the court? Stephen Stockwell: Yes, Detective Stephen Eppingstall. He spent a number of days being questioned in the witness box. He conducted the police interview. And we heard in that a number of lies from Erin Patterson. She was asked quite directly if she had owned a food dehydrator. She said no. This is after police have recovered from a search just hours beforehand the manual from a dehydrator in her house. Earlier in the trial, we've also seen evidence of Erin Patterson dumping something at the tip. Also in the agreed facts at the end of the prosecution's case, we heard about how there were fingerprints off of the food dehydrator recovered from the tip that matched Erin Patterson's. Also within that dehydrator, there was evidence of death cap mushrooms. And we also heard in that interview that Erin Patterson had never foraged. And this is another point that the defence has spoken to already in the opening statements. Colin Mandy said that Erin Patterson has foraged for mushrooms in the past. And one of the things that Erin Patterson's defence has said throughout this trial, that these are the actions of someone who has panicked. They're the words of Erin Patterson's defence team. And isn't that behaviour entirely consistent with someone who might have panicked? Sam Hawley: Also, some of the evidence presented to the court, Stephen, relates to when Erin Patterson presented to hospital after the lunch. Stephen Stockwell: So we've heard evidence and we've seen video of Erin Patterson presenting to the Leongatha Hospital following the lunch. And she is not at the hospital for very long initially. The hospital staff realised that she is the fifth member of this lunch. They're already treating in the Leongatha Hospital two members of that lunch. So they are very keen to have her in. They know how sick these other people are. They want her to stay and do some tests. And Erin Patterson is not keen to stay in the hospital. And so she signs a discharge against medical advice form and leaves the hospital. One of the doctors at that hospital, Dr. Chris Webster, was furious when this happened. He actually called police to track her down and bring her back to the hospital. Erin did come back. She presents, she's admitted. We also heard throughout some of that evidence how sick Erin Patterson was. And it seemed as though she's not as sick as the other people who attended the lunch. You know, we heard that people respond differently to Amanita toxin poisoning. Now, Amanita toxins are the poisons within death cat mushrooms. And we've heard that someone's age, weight, general health can mean that the impact of those toxins are different on others. We've also heard evidence that Erin Patterson did have a number of loose bowel movements. And the nurse who recorded them, when questioned by the defence, said, look, that can be what you see when someone is suffering from a gastrointestinal issue. Sam Hawley: We also heard evidence, didn't we, that she had eaten off a different coloured plate than the other guests? Stephen Stockwell: Yes, we did. This is evidence that Ian Wilkinson gave when he was in the witness box. Ian's the only person outside of Erin Patterson that knows what happened at that lunch. And he talked about how the guests were served off of four large grey plates, while Erin's serve was on a different reddish, reddy brown coloured plate. Now, this is relevant because the Beef Wellington was served as individual parcels. Everyone had their own Beef Wellington around that table. We also saw video and photos of Erin Patterson's house when it was searched by police. In those photos, there was no evidence of four large grey plates and another red plate that Ian Wilkinson described. Sam Hawley: Mm. And what about Erin's alleged knowledge, then, Stephen, about death cap mushrooms? What's the court previously heard about that? Stephen Stockwell: There's two things the court has heard about death cap mushrooms, and Erin Patterson allegedly travelling to places where they have found. So, the first is a website called iNaturalist. Now, this is a citizen science website where people can go on and post photos and locations of different flora and fauna. Now, there were posts of death cap mushrooms made in areas of Loch and Outtrim. Now, these are places that, you know, in the scheme of Australia, aren't particularly far from where Erin Patterson lived. And the evidence that the prosecution presented was that devices that were from Erin Patterson's household had visited those listings, that a phone of Erin Patterson's had connected to mobile phone towers near those locations shortly after those visits. Now, under questioning, the expert who was talking about the mobile phone towers, Dr Matthew Sorrell, did concede that just a connection to those towers does not place you in those locations. There's a number of other things that could mean you're connecting to that. It could be, you know, a place you're standing in your house, it's not necessarily always connecting to the tower closest to you. There's a number of other factors that mean you could connect to that mobile phone tower. Sam Hawley: Stephen, the other thing that the court has heard quite a lot about is Erin Patterson's mobile phones. Stephen Stockwell: Yeah, we have. And so, for this, place yourself at the search of Erin Patterson's home a week after the lunch. So the police get to her house, and while they're searching it, the prosecution alleges that a phone is factory reset while they were in the house, and then a SIM card from a tablet is put into that device. At the end of the search, Erin Patterson is asked to hand over her phone, and that is the phone that is slid across the table to police. She's asked if it needs a pin, and she said, yes, it's either this four- or six-digit pin. And then when she goes to unlock it, it just opens. And this is a device that police are calling Phone B. There's another phone the prosecution allege was Erin Patterson's primary phone, that is Phone A. That phone has never been recovered. Sam Hawley: All right. So, Stephen, the trial is continuing, of course, and it could go for a few more weeks yet. We don't know for sure. But the prosecution alleges that Erin Patterson deliberately poisoned, with murderous intent, each of her lunch guests, which she, of course, denies. Erin's defence flagged at the beginning of this case that it must hinge on that issue of intent. That is what matters most. Stephen Stockwell: That's correct. Yeah, so there's no motive presented in this case. The prosecution doesn't need one. It is not one of the four points of murder. But from the opening statements, Colin Mandy SC told the jury, "as you listen to the evidence, you should consider when it comes to that fundamental issue of Erin's intention, did she have the motive to kill these four family members? What was her relationship with them, especially Don and Gail Patterson? What relationship did her children have with them?" So that issue, the issue of intention, is the critical issue in this trial. Sam Hawley: Stephen Stockwell is the co-host of the ABC's Mushroom Case Daily podcast, which you can find on the ABC Listen app. This episode was produced by Sydney Pead. Audio production by Adair Sheppard. Our supervising producer is David Coady. I'm Sam Hawley. Thanks for listening.
ABC News
3 days ago
- Health
- ABC News
Why so many psychiatrists are quitting
Sam Hawley: Hi, just a warning before we begin this episode, we will be discussing suicide. ... There are so many stories of patients being left in emergency rooms for too long, of being admitted but then discharged too early or even being sent home without any care at all. As a result, in New South Wales, psychiatrists are quitting in droves, leaving a system they say is broken. And they're now speaking out amid fears it could lead to another Bondi Junction-style attack where innocent people are killed or injured. Today, Avani Dias on her investigation into a mental health system in desperate need of repair. I'm Sam Hawley on Gadigal land in Sydney. This is ABC News Daily. Avani, you've been investigating a crisis in mental health care in Australia's most populous state, of course, New South Wales, but this is really important for everyone across the country, right? Because if this sort of care is not available at a time of crisis, there can be really serious consequences. Avani Dias: Absolutely, Sam, and I think the first thing that pops into everyone's head is the Bondi Junction attack, which was just so devastating. And we've been hearing the inquest over the last couple of weeks and, you know, that just shows when there are gaps in the mental health system, there can just be such, such serious consequences. It's obviously worth noting that the Bondi Junction attacker, Joel Cauchi, had been treated in the Queensland public system until 2012, then by a private psychiatrist also in Queensland, and that was years before he moved to Sydney. But when I spoke to all these psychiatrists across New South Wales, they told me they saw the news breaking and they just got this pit in their stomach. They thought, oh, my goodness, is that my patient? And a lot of them actually told me they weren't surprised by this attack because of the just devastating conditions they're watching in the public mental health system. Sam Hawley: All right, well, as we said, of course, there's a real problem at the moment in New South Wales because this year alone, more than 60 psychiatrists have quit in protest over the state of the system. At least another 100 have actually threatened to resign their permanent roles. Now, tell me about Dr Suzy Goodison. She used to work at Sydney's largest hospital, RPA. Avani Dias: Yeah, so Dr Goodison resigned with all the other psychiatrists in January, and hearing her talk about the state of the system and what she had seen at her decade at RPA, it was really clear that she just felt what she called a moral injury. She felt she couldn't treat her patients properly. Dr Suzy Goodison, psychiatrist: I realised that I was burning out. Sorry. I just couldn't keep walking on by and pretending that this was normal and that we were delivering care that was adequate. Avani Dias: People were coming in for care and she spoke of these cases where she worked in the emergency department and she would actually say to people who were critically unwell that they should just go home because she thought the wait times that they would have to experience in the emergency department would actually make their conditions worse. Dr Suzy Goodison, psychiatrist: There were people who I remember being discharged and they'd be back in the emergency department the next day. It's pretty awful and demoralising and I think it wears you down and it felt hopeless at times. There were times when I thought, what am I actually doing for this patient? Avani Dias: And then she spoke about one of the last cases that she saw in January. It was this man who was living with schizophrenia and he had come into the hospital, he was looking for care. Dr Suzy Goodison, psychiatrist: And he came in to RPA, to the emergency department, with a nail gun and he had shot nails actually into his knees because the voices were telling him to do that. And so I immediately flagged that this man needed a significant amount of care. He needed a bed in an acute sort of mental health unit and that I was very concerned about him being in the general hospital. I then went off on a weekend and when I called on the Monday, he'd absconded from the ward, the hospital ward, and no-one knew where he was. He had no fixed address and I don't know what happened to him. Avani Dias: So could he still be out there in the community in that current state? Dr Suzy Goodison, psychiatrist: Yeah. Avani Dias: She was just really worried about the fact that some of these people who were so unwell, who needed treatment, weren't getting it in time and then they could be just out in the community. Dr Suzy Goodison, psychiatrist: These are the risks that we carry when we work in this field and when I can't deliver that care to keep either individuals safe or the community safe. And... Sorry. It's another Bondi Junction waiting to happen. Sam Hawley: How concerning. And you've also spoken to another psychiatrist, Avani, who quit the New South Wales health system this year. She had one word to describe what's going on and it is broken. Avani Dias: Yeah, it's a pretty big word, isn't it? And, I mean, it is really what we are witnessing, according to these doctors, medical staff, patients, is the collapse of mental health care in New South Wales in the public system. And, yeah, we spoke to this one psychiatrist, Dr Anu Kataria, and she has worked at Australia's largest mental health hospital, Cumberland Hospital, for 22 years and she also resigned with the other psychiatrist. But she echoed this really disturbing pattern that doctors have told us about, that she was told by bosses to discharge patients before it was safe to do so. Dr Anu Kataria, psychiatrist: We often would reach work and at half past eight in the morning get a text message saying, ED is backed up, Westmead ED is backed up, there's 15 people waiting, there's a dozen waiting at Blacktown and we're the overflow hospital for Blacktown Hospital as well. Please discharge. The expectation from senior administration, from the executives, is that I just get people out as soon as I can. Avani Dias: And we heard from a lot of people as well that that was their experience. They'd be dealing with these serious mental illnesses and then asked to leave and they felt they weren't ready. Sam Hawley: All right, well, we're going to unpack what is going so wrong in New South Wales, but before we do, Avani, what about mental health services across the country? Are they any better? Avani Dias: Well, the thing is that in New South Wales, the government is spending the lowest per capita in the country on mental health services. So it is really the bottom of the barrel when it comes to spending and that's why we decided to focus on New South Wales. But, yeah, a lot of the other states aren't far behind and we actually received the results of a landmark national survey by Beyond Blue and it revealed that rates of severe mental illness in Australia are rising. So now four and a half million Australians are experiencing a serious mental health challenge, but more than half of them aren't getting the help they need when they need it. And so that just shows you that this is a national problem, but New South Wales really is struggling the most when it comes to these services. Sam Hawley: Well, Avani, as you went about your investigation, you not only spoke to psychiatrists, of course, but you wanted to hear from people who'd had experiences trying to get help in the New South Wales system and you had a really big response, didn't you? Avani Dias: That's right. We asked our audience at Four Corners to tell us their stories about getting help for a serious mental illness in New South Wales and the response was overwhelming. There was one case that really stood out to me and that was the case of Carly Richardson. She's 20, she's had depression, she has PTSD, she's been in and out of the mental health system since she was 13, so super little and she's still dealing with these severe mental illnesses. And she actually self-harmed around New Year's and she actually went to hospital to try and get help but was discharged early. Carly Richardson, former patient: I had a suicide attempt in the ward and I was saying, like, look, I'm not OK, you know, like nothing had changed for me. And they said to me, they're like, we can't do anything because the beds everywhere were full. So they just had to send me home, essentially. Once I got out, I didn't even make it home before I was sectioned again by six police officers and brought back to the emergency department after trying to harm myself again. And once again, I was, like, sent home just 10 hours later. Avani Dias: She was just really worried about the lack of help out there for someone who was in such a severe state like she was. Sam Hawley: And you've heard a lot about safety in emergency departments. Avani Dias: That's right. And, you know, this starts from a kind of earlier position because we were leaked a whole series of wait times at one of Australia's busiest emergency departments, Sydney's Westmead Hospital. And this came from inside sources who told us people were waiting four days in one case in emergency to get treatment for a serious mental illness. So that was a man with schizoaffective disorder and he waited 93 hours. We had another case in that month where two men had been waiting more than 80 hours to be seen. There are so many different examples like this. That leads to agitation, frustration and anger. And so doctors are telling us that it then exacerbates this mental illness and what they're seeing then is people lashing out, acting violently, and then frontline staff are the ones that are actually dealing with that. We spoke to one security guard at Sydney's Westmead Hospital. He actually got stabbed by a mental health patient who had been waiting for hours. Sam Hawley: So, Avani, what do the psychiatrists say is needed to fix the system? At the heart of their dispute is pay, isn't it? What do they want? Avani Dias: There's been months and months of negotiations with New South Wales psychiatrists who are saying they want a 25% pay increase. And they're saying it's not because we want more money necessarily, it's because they need a solution to actually retain staff in the system. They're finding that staff are either moving interstate or they're going to the private system where they can make a lot more money. The government, on the other hand, has said, look, doctors already make a lot of money, they don't need this pay rise. And so now they're deadlocked and they've gone to the workplace disputes referee to kind of nut this out and that's still ongoing, the Industrial Relations Commission. Sam Hawley: What has the state government had to say then? Can it actually meet this pay demand? Avani Dias: Well, the New South Wales Mental Health Minister, Rose Jackson, she declined our requests for an interview, but she has in the past said that the government needs to think about the overall state budget, that it can't necessarily afford this sort of pay rise and that the government's gone back with this counter offer of 10.5% over three years. Rose Jackson, NSW Mental Health Minister: Their solution to this challenge is a 25% wage increase in a single year. That's not something the government is able to agree to. We have to think about the broad, not just mental health system, but overall state budget. Avani Dias: And what was really surprising was that, despite the minister not talking to me, we did hear from the state's chief psychiatrist. His name's Dr Murray Wright and he's the most senior advisor on mental health to the government, so he's a bureaucrat in the department as well and he said he actually supports this 25% pay rise. So that's contrary to the government. Chief Psychiatrist Dr Murray Wright: I am sympathetic to the issues that they raise and I think in particular the disparity in wages between New South Wales and other states. Avani Dias: So are you supportive of that pay rise? Chief Psychiatrist Dr Murray Wright: Yes. Avani Dias: But what the psychiatrist is saying is it's not just about this pay rise, it's a much bigger issue. There's a lot more that needs to be fixed and that comes down to under-resourcing and so there's a push for the government to do more there as well. Sam Hawley: So, Avani, what is the way out of this then? Why would psychiatrists want to work in a sector if it is indeed broken and the sector needs more psychiatrists, clearly? Avani Dias: Oh, the sector is desperate for more psychiatrists. We're seeing job ads coming out saying if we don't hire someone soon, this ward will have to close. Oh, my gosh. Wards are just shutting down continuously just because there aren't enough psychiatrists and that means as a patient, if you're trying to get help, you're just not going to get it. The New South Wales government has admitted to us that the system needs improvement, that it needs reform. It said it is investing $2.9 billion in mental health services and it's saying that if you do need help, you should seek it because there are services there. I guess the question is what can people do in the meantime as they wait for this system to be repaired? Sam Hawley: Avani Dias is a reporter with Four Corners. You can watch her full report tonight on ABC TV at 8.30 or on iView. If this episode has raised any issues for you or anyone you know, Lifeline is one service that can help. Contact them on 13 11 14. This episode was produced by Sydney Pead. Audio production by Adair Sheppherd. Our supervising producer is David Coady. I'm Sam Hawley. Thanks for listening.
ABC News
28-05-2025
- Business
- ABC News
Can farmers endure repeated floods and drought?
Josh Hack: Early on in the piece, we were sort of a bit worried. There was some reports from private forecasters saying, you know, 600 odd mils and there wasn't many models showing that, but the Bureau of Meteorology wasn't really showing anything until we got to the weekend before, sort of two to three days before. But once we sort of got to that one or two days out, we knew that we were going to get some decent rainfalls and we were going to get floods. And the time this river stayed up is just phenomenal. Like, 2021 hit that peak and it was coming up and then going down within two to three hours. This stayed up 30 hours above the 2021 flood. And you've got animals. So if they did seek refuge, you know, trying to stand in water and trying to hit that refuge for that amount of time is pretty draining on them. Sam Hawley: When it looked like heavy rain was on its way, Taree Farmer, Josh Hack, knew he had to act and he was right to predict the worst. Like so many others, Josh is now facing the clean-up from the record-breaking floods that devastated large parts of the New South Wales Mid North Coast and Hunter regions. Today, we consider the plight of Australia's farmers like Josh, but also those further south, fighting their way through severe drought and ask the question, is Australia really still fit for farming? I'm Sam Hawley on Gadigal land in Sydney. This is ABC News Daily. News report: In communities right along the Mid North Coast of New South Wales, clean-up efforts are in full swing. News report: More than 700 homes and businesses have been declared uninhabitable so far, but authorities are warning that number will rise. Flood victim: It's diabolical, to be honest. There's certainly farms who have had most, if not all, their herd washed into the ocean. Flood victim: We actually never, ever thought that it would reach that magnitude, especially where we are. Flood victim: People are just traumatised, and some of them have been through it before. And to be back here again, it's just unbelievable. Josh Hack: My name's Josh Hack. We have some beef cattle in the Manning Valley, but we're also contract drone pilots and also do agronomy on farms as well for clients. Sam Hawley: Sounds like you're out and about at the moment. Josh Hack: Yeah, mate, yeah. So we're just trying to move some of our stock off Dumeric Island, which has been hit pretty hard. And I've been lucky. I've sort of only lost a handful there, but a lot of people have lost hundreds. So, yeah, the preparation for me has really paid off. But, look, you know, no-one could really prepare for a 1 in 500-year flood. Sam Hawley: Oh, gosh. OK, yeah. Just tell me what it's been like over the past week for you. What did you have to do to save your stock? Josh Hack: OK, so we're at about 200 head. We moved about 40 of them with trucks and stuff, and the rest of them we just made sure we, you know, hold those cattle down into the lower areas until sort of the day or two before and then moved them to the higher paddocks as possible because we knew that they're going to be there for a while and we need to save the feed there. However, all those paddocks have gone under as well. Now, those cattle stood in the water and we've been lucky enough not to lose too many. A few calves and bits and pieces and another 20 weaners that we lost. But those weaners were in the safest part of any of the farms. They were on a hill. And they decided to jump back into the water to go back to another island. And there's nothing we can do about that. They've just decided they wanted to do that. But there was another 40 cattle with them and they didn't do that. So... Sam Hawley: Right. Interesting. Josh Hack: It's pretty tough. But, like, across the whole floodplain, it's just a disaster. Like, the silt levels, the fences are gone. You know, we've spent two days trying to get cattle in because the fences aren't there, trying to get them through silt, trying to get them into yards. We've got to clean yards and try and work out which yards we can get into. Then we're going to try and scrape all the silt away from the yards so we can get trucks in. Yeah, so it's quite an effort just to try and get animals out to get them to a safe spot. Sam Hawley: Yeah, I bet. Yeah, I was going to say the aftermath is often so much worse, right? Because you see the extent of that damage. Josh Hack: Yeah, absolutely. Every day that water went down, two to three days after, you've just seen more and more and more damage. And, you know, the town is amazing, like, the amount of people getting around and helping each other. Sam Hawley: Yeah. Josh Hack: But they're going to need help for a long time going forward. And from the farmer's point of view, which is, you know, where I sort of... it's my industry I work in, you know, they're going to need a lot of feed. Feed's hard to get because we've had droughts down in South Australia, Victoria, so all the feed down southern parts of the country has really sort of taken up. And then if you go to Queensland, they had the floods in Western Queensland as well, which a lot of feed went out that way. So, you know, the donated stuff isn't easy to find for people like Need for Feed. So they're going to have to be purchasing it. Like I said, it's just... it's a week or two, three weeks away, four weeks away when people... you know, that hype goes away and the energy levels drop. And speaking to one dairy farmer, you know, they went through the 2021 flood and, you know, they got back up and milking and the place was a disaster, but they had their house as a refuge. And it's just such a different thing when you don't have your house anymore and it's all full of sludge and you've got to try and work out how to clean it. You don't have that refuge you can go back to and have a cup of tea and just take the five minutes you need to take. And that's the hard bit is there's so many places now under that wouldn't have been under, you know, in those other floods. Sam Hawley: Wow. Absolutely devastating. And as you mentioned, quite incredible that you have been through these devastating floods, but then you go south and there are so many farmers dealing with really severe drought. I mean, Josh, being a farmer in Australia, it is so tough. Are you going to keep going? Josh Hack: Oh, look, it is. And look, these guys, they all say they're going to keep going and it's easy to say. But without the Australian support, I can tell you now, like they've been hit from pillar to post, especially locally around here. We've had the droughts from 16 to 19, 21, we had a one in a 100 year flood. In 2023, we had the driest winter on record. OK, and then 2025, we're at a one in 500 year flood. So these guys weren't back on their feet. Some of them were just getting there. But, you know, the enormity of the tasks ahead, you know, they're trying and they're trying to punch through those jobs. But the enormity of this task ahead, they need hope. And the Australian people have got to be able to give them hope. And when I say Australian people, it means the Australian government and give people hope that they're going to get the support they need in the in the short term, not to mention the long term future. Sam Hawley: Yeah, and we need our farmers, Josh, that's for sure. Josh Hack: Yeah, no, you do. Look, and, you know, me and my family, like we started beef farming as it's our investment. You know, we sold our house and bought cattle. So, you know, it is tough, but what's tough is seeing your mates and your friends and people that are hard as rocks, that are such good people that are just really broken. And yeah, there's a lot of them. There's dairy farmers, there's beef farmers. You go up river here to Mount George and through into Gloucester. Rivers have changed course. There's river flats that are just gone. There's pastures that have been planted across the whole district in March and April that we're all ready to feed off. So they've spent the money this year. They've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars getting their pasture ready for the year, and it's all gone. And these guys need hope so that they know that they can, you know, afford to do some of these things in the short term. Jess Davis: I'm Jess Davis, and I'm a climate reporter, but I'm based out in Western Victoria. Sam Hawley: Jess, we're seeing a really terrible set of circumstances unfolding for New South Wales farmers who've been coping with this devastating flooding. But if you head further south, the farmers there are in drought. And it hasn't made huge headlines until recently. But just tell me, how bad is it? Jess Davis: It's quite stark how different the picture is in different parts of the country right now. Farmers in parts of southern Australia have been calling this the forgotten drought for the past 15 months from Ceduna, which is west of Adelaide in South Australia, all the way to Wilsons Promontory, east of Melbourne, western Tasmania. Large swathes of that southern stretch of coast have seen some of their lowest rainfall on record. And the landscape is just desperately dry. It's a normally very lush, fertile region in southwest Victoria. And if you look at the paddocks, they're just red dirt and dust. So it's really a dire picture out here. Sam Hawley: And you have been speaking to some farmers in the region, including Charlie de Fagely. He has seen four droughts in his lifetime, and he actually thinks this one is the worst. Jess Davis: That's right. Charlie and his wife Liz own a sheep farm with a flock of about 10,000 sheep near Ararat, which is two and a half hours west of Melbourne. Charlie de Fegely, sheep farmer: This is probably the toughest couple of years I've had. Because it's two years. All the others were just a failed winter, failed spring, and it broke the following autumn. This is by far the worst. Jess Davis: At the moment, he's bringing in 60 tonnes of feed every 10 days for his flock because there's just nothing left for them to graze on. Sam Hawley: And there's a lot of farmers in that area, and many of them are now having to actually sell their stock, aren't they? Jess Davis: That's right. Just last week, I went to the sale yards in Ballarat, and they told me that 20,000 cattle had been sold just out of southwest Victoria in the week. Now, most of those were going to northern New South Wales and Queensland. And in one way, it's one of the saving graces for farmers out here, is that until last week, conditions in northern New South Wales and Queensland have been really good. And so they've been able to sell their stock at pretty good prices. You know, other droughts that are more widespread, the prices for stock really plummet, and so you can't even sell them. But for this drought, farmers have been able to get relatively good prices. Now, something that's, you know, a big risk now is that because of the floods in New South Wales, we've seen those pastures ruined by too much rain rather than too little rain. And that's only going to push prices of hay and feed up. And there are farmers out here who are already telling me that that not only is it expensive to get feed, but they actually can't find a supply. So that is the two disasters coinciding is going to really exacerbate some of these problems. And there could be some very difficult decisions for farmers coming up. Sam Hawley: Such a hard time for them. So, Jess, we know drought and flooding rains are not unusual in Australia, that's for sure. But these two things occurring at the same time and obviously the severity is getting worse. So what role do scientists say climate change is playing here? Jess Davis: That's right. Australia does have a long history of droughts, but a lack of autumn and winter rainfall is something that both southwest and southeast Australia are now becoming increasingly familiar with. The weather systems that lift and carry moisture from the ocean to fall as heavy rain on land. They've been absent from southern Australia in recent months. And the majority of climate projections show this trend continuing. And it's particularly stark in southwest Western Australia, where we've seen this drying trend since the 1970s. And scientists have actually been able to attribute that to human caused climate change, largely from the burning of fossil fuels. Now, if you look at the floods, rainfall and flood predictions are a little trickier than that of heat and dry. But what we do know is that the warmer the atmosphere gets from the burning of fossil fuels, the more moisture it can hold. And ultimately, the more fuel big rain systems have to tap into. And so heavy rainfall is expected to become more intense as the climate gets warmer. The projections are a little bit trickier in rural areas and large river basins where floods are driven by multi-day rainfall events, like we saw last week and by the preceding soil moisture conditions. But there is evidence that the flood peaks for rarer flood events like this one have increased across many parts of the world. Sam Hawley: OK, well, it does seem like it's becoming a lot tougher for farmers in Australia. When things are good, they can be really good. But when they're bad, my gosh. So I guess, Jess, the question is, can farmers in Australia actually adapt to what the climate is doing to survive, to be able to farm in this country? Jess Davis: They can and they already are. And Charlie de Fagely, he told me that every drought they've learnt to do something differently. So that includes what they feed their sheep, what they grow in their paddocks and importantly, how they manage water. So he spent a lot of money so that every paddock has water piped and there are troughs. Through the floods there have been similar stories, including one farmer who built a ramp for his cows after the 2021 floods so that they would have higher ground to escape to. That saved his dairy herd this time around. But sadly, not all farmers will survive these kinds of conditions. They have to really implement modern farming practices and technologies and have the money and resources to be able to do that. Sam Hawley: Jess Davis is a reporter with the ABC's Climate team. Josh Hack is a farmer from Taree. This episode was produced by Sydney Pead and Adair Sheppard. Audio production by Sam Dunn. Our supervising producer is David Coady. I'm Sam Hawley. Thanks for listening.
ABC News
18-05-2025
- ABC News
The growing push for ‘Adult Crime, Adult Time' laws
Sam Hawley: When Queensland woman Emma Lovell was stabbed to death by a teenager in 2022, the community and nation was shocked. The 17-year-old offender had broken into her family home on Boxing Day with Emma, her husband and two daughters asleep inside. The crime was a catalyst for a campaign for stricter sentencing for youths and Queensland went on to become the first state to introduce 'adult time for adult crime' laws. Today, ABC News Queensland presenter Jessica Van Vonderen on why other states could follow suit. I'm Sam Hawley on Gadigal land in Sydney. This is ABC News Daily. Jessica, youth crime, it really has dominated the headlines in Queensland for the last couple of years and that might have passed some people by if you're not in that state. So why is that? Jessica van Vonderen: Yes, it has been an absolutely potent issue here in Queensland, particularly, probably actually, in fact, as far back as 2020, the opposition was trying to fight an election at that point on youth crime. But, gee, youth crime in the last election just gone in 2024 was absolutely, as well as cost of living, the number one issue. David Crisafulli, Qld Premier: The youth crime crisis keeps getting worse under Labor. If government changes by the end of the year, the Making Queensland Safer laws will be laws. Jessica van Vonderen: And look, that was fuelled by some really tragic and high profile cases that occurred in Queensland. In 2021, there was a young Queensland couple out walking, Matthew Field and Katherine Leadbetter. They got hit by a car driven by a drunken youth in a stolen car. They died along with their unborn baby. And then in 2022, a woman by the name of Emma Lovell, a 41 year old woman, she confronted a couple of teenage boys who had broken into her home on Boxing Day and she was fatally stabbed. News report: While fleeing outside the house, he stabbed Emma Lovell in the chest and her husband in the back. The 41 year old mother could not be saved. Jessica van Vonderen: And then just last year, a grandmother, Vyleen White, also allegedly fatally stabbed while grocery shopping. The alleged offender, 16 years old at the time, this happening during an alleged carjacking. News report: It's here in an underground car park that Vyleen White was stabbed and killed. A 16 year old was charged overnight with murdering the Ipswich grandmother before allegedly fleeing with her car. Jessica van Vonderen: So sort of the culmination of these really high profile and really sad cases really crystallised and galvanised this view in Queensland that we had a really big problem that the community increasingly wanted to be dealt with. Sam Hawley: Yeah, there were terrible crimes and this was all sort of happening in the lead up to a state election and it was putting the Labor government at the time under great pressure, wasn't it? Jessica van Vonderen: Under enormous pressure. People were marching in the streets on Parliament House, victims of crime in particular, demanding tougher action. Protestors: Increase minimum sentencing! Jessica van Vonderen: And so what we saw was the former Premier Anastasia Palaszczuk did come out with various crackdowns, including increasing prison sentences for car thieves, tougher sentences for boasting about crimes on social media and reintroducing a breach of bail as an offence, along with things like building two new youth detention centres. The opposition leader, David Crisafulli at the time, he would hold press conference after press conference with a victim of crime to highlight that particular person's plight. David Crisafulli, Qld Premier: Five months ago, I sat at Victor's kitchen table and made him a promise that the loss of Vyleen wouldn't be in vain. Today, it was great to be able to return to letting him know about our plan for adult crime, adult time. Jessica van Vonderen: People might have heard of adult crime, adult time. This was the policy that the LNP was promoting during their campaign. And as we know, ultimately, they did win that election. David Crisafulli, Qld Premier: What history will show is that tonight was the turning corner of the youth crime crisis. And by Christmas, adult crime, adult time will be law. Sam Hawley: Yeah. All right. So Jess, let's come back to that adult crime, adult time slogan, if you like, in a moment. But I want to get a sense before we move on of the crisis. You mentioned those terrible cases. They're absolutely horrifying. But do we know if youth crime is actually on the rise? Jessica van Vonderen: It is a complicated question, Sam. What's that expression? Lies, damned lies and statistics. Yes. There are lots of figures that get published. And nationally, the Australian Bureau of Statistics tells us that there's been a decrease of young offenders aged between 10 and 17 years of age from last financial year to the year before, also reporting a decrease in Queensland, specifically of 3% in that time. But look, it's sort of in some ways, it depends who you ask. Certainly, if you read a press release from the current Liberal National Party, it will tell you that there has been an increase in things like robbery and stolen cars over the last decade. You know, this is the thing too. Do you compare right now to 10 years ago? Do you compare right now to last year? You know, an increase in numbers might not necessarily mean an increased number of offenders. It might just be because of this real surge in policing that has been happening lately. Sam Hawley: All right. Well, Jess, let's go back then to the politics of it and this adult crime, adult time concept. The Queensland Premier, David Crisafulli, of course, won the state election late last year, and the government has since implemented these tough new laws. So just explain them for me. Jessica van Vonderen: Yes. And he promised to do them within his first 100 days in office, which is what he did. So as the title suggests, this is a policy that treats juvenile offenders who commit certain serious crimes as adults when they come before the criminal justice system. So if a child at the age of 10 committed a murder, that would mean life in prison, because that is the penalty if you're an adult. So in Queensland, life in prison means a minimum prison time of 20 years before you are eligible for parole. So that started off with a list of 13 offences that has since been expanded to now include 33 crimes where adult crime, adult time applies. So we're talking about things like rape, aggravated attempted robbery, attempted murder, arson, torture, all of those kinds of offences. They've also removed the principle of detention as a last resort. And also written in the legislation is basically that the rights of victims now need to take priority over the rights of young offenders. So the courts have to make the impact on the victim the priority in their considerations when they're handing out sentences. David Crisafulli, Qld Premier: We want youth criminals to understand that the days of their rights being greater than the rights of the victim are a thing of the past. Jessica van Vonderen: The other big change, I guess, is something called Jack's Law, which allows police officers to randomly search people with metal detectors without needing a warrant. It's named after Jack Beasley, a 17-year-old boy who was killed on a night out on the Gold Coast. This started off as just a trial in places like train stations and safe night precincts. But there is, as we speak, legislation currently before the parliament to extend that to all public places. Sam Hawley: Super interesting. Okay. So these kind of laws, they've been legislated in Queensland and are in the process of being legislated. But we're also seeing really similar tough laws discussed in other states now, haven't we? Jessica van Vonderen: Yes, we've seen a lot of other states now looking at a tougher approach. So let's take Tasmania, for example. The government, they're mulling over adopting tougher laws to target repeat youth offenders. We've just seen in the Northern Territory, they've lowered the age of criminal responsibility back to 10 years old. In New South Wales, last year, the Minn's government announced some new youth crime laws, making it harder for some young people to get bail after jailable offences. And then we've also got several jurisdictions, as I mentioned earlier, this posting and boasting situation where they're posting about it and boasting about it on their social media feeds. So making that also an increasing the amount of jail time for that as well. Sam Hawley: Interesting. Okay. So we've got these tougher laws, a tougher stance against youth crime. But Jess, what does the evidence actually show us? Does that help then reduce crime overall? Jessica van Vonderen: Well, this is key, right? So the Queensland government is hoping that it's a deterrent. The Premier is measuring it on he wants to see fewer victims of crime. That is the measure he's using. In fact, he's staked his leadership on it. But I guess the opposing voices in this whole debate, there have been a lot of them. The Queensland Human Rights Commissioner, Scott McDougall, he described these changes as rash and alarming. Scott McDougall, Queensland Human Rights Commissioner : A society that treats its children in the same way that it treats its adults is a society that's lost its way. Jessica van Vonderen: We saw the former chairperson for the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, Anne Skelton, also slamming this legislation, saying that it violates children's rights under international law. Ann Skelton, former Chairperson for the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child: We urge the government of Queensland not to depart from the longstanding and universally accepted principle that deprivation of liberty for child offenders must be a measure of last resort and for the shortest appropriate period of time. Jessica van Vonderen: The Queensland Law Society, the same. Rebecca Fogerty, Qld Law Society: When we are dealing with the most damaged, the most vulnerable, and the members of our community who have been let down the most by our community, I don't understand why we are seeking to apply different standards. Jessica van Vonderen: And also one of the other really vocal opinions in all of this has been the head of the Youth Advocacy Centre in Queensland, Katherine Hayes. She points out things like, these kids are often facing systemic issues such as domestic and family violence, drug use, homelessness. How do you fix those things with tougher sentencing? Sam Hawley: Yeah, all right. Well, Jess, there really does seem to be a line here between the excessive detention of children, many of whom are really vulnerable kids, and also on the other side, community safety. It's incredibly difficult. Jessica van Vonderen: Very complicated, very fraught question. And there's a lot of talk about prevention, intervention. These are longer term solutions. And I guess adult crime, adult time is an easy kind of headline. Things like these longer term programs, which to be fair, there is also millions of dollars being injected into those. The Crisafulli government here in Queensland, they say we are trying to do both, put in the tough laws, but also more support for communities. Things like a 12-month post-release plan for any child that leaves youth detention to help them reintegrate into the community to try to make sure that they don't offend again. So it really is a crucial balancing act. And I guess these tough new crackdowns, they're just new, right? They're just coming into effect. They've been in place for a few months. Everybody will be watching. Is the youth crime rate going to go down? Do I feel safer? Is this approach working? And the proof will be in the pudding. We'll have to come back, Sam, and chat again in a few years' time to see where this has landed. Sam Hawley: Jessica Van Vonderen presents the 7pm ABC News in Queensland. This episode was produced by Sydney Peadand Sam Dunn. Audio production by Adair Sheppard. Our supervising producer is David Coady. I'm Sam Hawley. Thanks for listening.
