Virtru Names Wayne Chung as CTO to Drive Next Phase of Innovation and Growth
Chung's appointment marks a significant milestone for Virtru as it accelerates the deployment of its Data Security Platform in the national security and commercial markets—while simultaneously growing its 6,000+ customer commercial SaaS business.
'I'm honored to join Virtru at such an exciting moment,' said Chung. 'The team's vision for data-centric security across SaaS, defense, and AI is both bold and timely. Our national institutions need the fine-grained security, control, and simplicity that Virtru provides. I look forward to partnering with this team to scale Virtru's impact and drive greater adoption of data-centric security.'
Chung brings an exceptional track record with executive roles across both public and private sectors. At the FBI, he served as CTO, leading cloud migration, cybersecurity modernization, and the development of advanced data analytics, AI and ML capabilities. Chung also previously held the position of Innovator-In-Residence at the NSA's Cybersecurity and Computer Network Operations Mission. He currently serves as a Technical Amicus Curiae to the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Courts, and is a Senior Fellow at the Center for National Security and the Law at Georgetown University.
In the private sector, Chung has held CTO roles at BlueVoyant and Clara Analytics, where he scaled cutting-edge data security and AI platforms.
Ackerly will focus on advancing Virtru's technical architecture and research, continuing to lead innovation efforts surrounding the Trusted Data Format (TDF) and pushing the boundaries of what data-centric solutions can achieve in the era of agentic AI.
'As Virtru continues to deploy software at scale across large federal and commercial organizations, Wayne's unique blend of public and private-sector experience is a valuable asset to our team,' said Ackerly. 'His leadership will help Virtru remain ahead of the curve in enabling secure, data-centric collaboration for both government and enterprise customers.'
For more information about Virtru and its Data Security Platform, please visit www.virtru.com.
About Virtru
Virtru empowers organizations to unlock the power of data while maintaining control wherever it's stored and shared. Trusted by over 6,000 global customers, Virtru provides simple, powerful solutions for Zero Trust data-centric security, underpinned by the Trusted Data Format (TDF). Learn more at Virtru.com.
Press Contact
Nick Michael
nick.michael@virtru.com
A photo accompanying this announcement is available at https://www.globenewswire.com/NewsRoom/AttachmentNg/28f2b422-d0c8-4752-aa9a-1474581b2058
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Forbes
3 hours ago
- Forbes
Tax Breaks: The Scammers And Schemers Are Upping Their Fraud Game Edition
Scams are becoming more sophisticated. getty What could be worse than getting scammed? Getting scammed twice. The FBI is warning about a new scam involving fraudsters posing as lawyers representing fictitious law firms. Using social media or other messaging platforms, scammers offer their services, claiming to have authority to investigate fund recovery cases. To verify the contact, the "lawyers" say they are working with, or have received information on, the scam victim's case from the FBI, Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB), or other government agency. In some cases, scam victims have reached out to fraudsters on fake websites, which look legitimate, in hopes of recovering their funds. Then, they ask for payment or additional personally identifiable information that can be used to trick victims a second time. The FBI urges folks to be cautious and remember the common fraud prevention refrain—if in doubt, assume it's a scam. It's true that scams are increasingly becoming more sophisticated and widespread. Nasdaq's Global Financial Crime Report estimates that scams and fraud added up to $485.6 billion per year in projected losses with U.S. victims taking a beating: the U.S. ranks second globally for major fraud losses. So, what's driving the upticks? A recent survey conducted by BioCatch, a global company focused on solving digital identity challenges through examining behavioral biometrics, aimed to offer clarity. One of the reasons may be that while U.S. banks may trust technology, they don't trust each other—there's no meaningful sharing of information. That's a break from behaviors abroad where statistics suggest that when banks in other countries share at scale, their losses are decreasing. (Part of the reluctance to share information may come from consumers. While 32% of those surveyed in the U.S. consider data privacy regulation as one of the main inhibitors to sharing data with other banks, 30% worry about the potential for misuse. These numbers are higher than global averages.) As scammers develop new schemes to steal money and information from consumers, the commitment to fraud prevention must evolve even faster. Understanding what kinds of scams are spreading and how they operate, as well as the roles that consumers, law enforcement, and financial institutions can play in mitigation and prevention, are all key. That means that education will continue to be a big part in stopping scammers. In another scam, the fraudster (aware of U.S. retirement accounts and rollover rules) nudges the individual to withdraw retirement funds for purposes of making an investment. The selling point from the scammer is that the investor can transfer the funds back to a retirement account tax-free within the applicable 60-day window for retirement account rollovers. Unfortunately, in many instances, the criminal takes the funds and disappears, leaving the victim with a huge loss and even more massive tax headache. The IRS has granted extensions of the 60-day rollover period where taxpayers were the victims of fraudulent schemes. However, taxpayers interested in requesting relief through a private letter ruling (PLR) should recognize the request is not an easy one, requiring the taxpayer to submit a litany of information to the agency to review whether the taxpayer satisfies the 'equity and good conscience' exception. Taxpayers who have withdrawn funds from retirement accounts due to fraud sometimes have options under the federal income tax laws–if you find yourself in that unfortunate situation, talk to a tax professional. Retirement account laws can be notoriously difficult to navigate at the best of times, but for the millions of former U.S. persons living abroad, understanding the tax implications of U.S. retirement accounts is critical. That's because IRAs, Roths, and SEPs remain tethered to U.S. tax rules long after you give up U.S. status. Withholding taxes, U.S. estate tax exposure and the harsh 'covered expatriate' tax regime are often overlooked until the time for planning has passed. U.S. citizens and green card holders who are contemplating giving up U.S. status need to be proactive in their tax planning to preserve hard-earned wealth–understanding the tax treatment of retirement accounts can help avoid unintended tax consequences. And that's a wrap on tax news for this week–but keep reading for more good stuff, including our fraud-focused tax trivia question. Enjoy your weekend, Kelly Phillips Erb (Senior Writer, Tax) Questions Does it cost money to e-file? getty This week, a reader asks: My tax preparer told me that the IRS charges a fee for e-filing. Is that true? No, that's not true. The IRS doesn't charge a fee for e-filing your federal income tax return. That doesn't mean that it won't cost you extra. Many online tax preparation software programs like TurboTax or TaxAct may charge you a fee to e-file, depending on the type of software you use and the complexity of your tax returns (simple returns may be filed for free). Your tax preparer may be charged a fee by a processor, which they may opt to pass along to you either as a stand-alone cost or as part of the overall cost of your tax return. However, the IRS does not charge your tax preparer a fee for e-filing. If you're looking for fully free e-filing options, you can use IRS Free File or Direct File. Free File is an existing program offered as part of a public-private partnership between the IRS and Free File Inc., formerly the Free File Alliance. Through this partnership, tax preparation and filing software providers make their online products available to eligible taxpayers. That means that you can prepare and e-file your federal taxes for free. Direct File also allows eligible taxpayers to file taxes directly with the IRS online for free. With Direct File, some of your information, like your employment and wage information from your Form W-2 (if it's available), can be transferred directly to your tax return. You can also get access live support from IRS staff, Monday - Friday, 9 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. Eastern time. But that option won't be around for long—the controversial program is expected to be eliminated after this year. Do you have a tax question that you think we should cover in the next newsletter? We'd love to help if we can. Check out our guidelines and submit a question here. Statistics, Charts, and Graphs Over the past few years, the IRS has worked to improve access and availability of taxpayer services. As part of these efforts, the agency installed stand-alone booths—called kiosks—in Taxpayer Assistance Centers (TACs) beginning in 2011. The services available from the kiosks, which are supposed to be connected to a computer, are the same as those that you'd normally see on the IRS website. These kinds of services may not normally be easily available to taxpayers in rural and underserved communities since taxpayers in these communities may not have access to a computer, printer, or the internet at home. The kiosks would be a great idea—if they worked. In April 2024, TIGTA found that the IRS had 100 kiosks located at 37 TACs. Of those, only 55 kiosks were operational. Of the remaining kiosks, 40 were inoperable, and the status of five was unknown. Additionally, TAC managers at 11 locations reported that the kiosks were not connected to a working printer, which prevented taxpayers from printing tax forms or other documents. When a kiosk becomes inoperable or encounters issues that cannot be resolved with basic troubleshooting, the TAC manager submits a service ticket to the third-party contractor. And then… they wait. TIGTA found that the time needed to close service tickets ranged from 30 days or less to 463 days (most took between 151-365 days to resolve), while 24 tickets were open (meaning the contractor did not perform work on these tickets). How long do third-party service tickets stay open at IRS? Kelly Phillips Erb After those findings were revealed last year, the IRS indicated the plan was to work with the existing contractor to make the kiosks operational by December 31, 2024. However, in January 2025, TIGTA visited eight TACs with inoperable kiosks and found the machines were still not working. When TIGTA brought those concerns to the agency, the IRS said it was discontinuing the kiosk program. According to TIGTA, 'While we support the IRS's decision to discontinue the current kiosk program, we believe that offering taxpayers a self-service option could be beneficial as the IRS reduces and restructures its workforce.' (The IRS workforce dropped from 103,000 employees in January 2025 to approximately 77,000 in May 2025, a 25% reduction.) In response, TIGTA recommended that the IRS perform a study to determine whether a new kiosk program that uses updated technology or deploys laptops to TACs would provide effective and efficient self-service options to taxpayers. IRS management agreed with the recommendation and indicated that it will assess the potential benefits and challenges of introducing a new program designed to offer modern self-assistive solutions for taxpayers. A Deeper Dive State and local taxes (SALT) are hot right now. getty State and local taxes (SALT) are hot right now–it's no wonder that tax controversy firm Kostelanetz recently included it in a list of tax practice areas keeping them busy. State and local governments are feeling stretched in the current economic climate, and rather than ride the coattails of federal audits, they are increasingly digging in on their own investigations to raise revenues. According to Kostelanetz partner Caroline Ciraolo, that may be made easier by an infusion of talent—as the federal government workforce and some private sector jobs shrink, state and local governments are seizing the opportunity to pick up those employees. The growth in SALT tax law may be helped along by the One Big Beautiful Bill Act (OBBBA). The SALT cap featured prominently in discussions before the law was passed. The House SALT Caucus originally pushed for the cap to be increased from $10,000 to $40,000, but Senate Republicans were concerned with the overall cost of the bill, and advocated for keeping the cap at $10,000 and using it as a pay-for to offset other tax cuts. The result is that the SALT cap was raised to $40,000 for single and joint filers. The deduction phases out for filers with modified adjusted gross income (MAGI) above $500,000 ($250,000 for married couples filing separately), and reverts to $10,000 for incomes of $600,000 and above. The deduction and the phase-out levels will increase by 1% a year until 2029, when the cap reverts back to the original $10,000. And, under OBBBA, passthrough entities (PTE) that were taking advantage of the states' workaround are still able to do that–those workarounds allow PTE owners to sidestep the cap. However, in a recent case, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit rejected arguments by several states who challenged updated regulations that would prohibit many of the SALT workarounds passed in the wake of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. The quintessential example of these workarounds was the creation of a state charitable fund (or a local version of the same), which could accept payments from residents, who would then receive a state or local tax credit. In 2018, the IRS issued proposed rulemaking to disallow the charitable-deduction workaround. In essence, the proposed rule required that taxpayers would have to reduce their federal charitable deduction for the amount of any state or local tax credit received 'in consideration for the taxpayer's payment or transfer.' The final rule made some tweaks, and the states launched a legal challenge. On appeal, the Second Circuit had to address several issues in addition to the substantive tax merits, including an allegation that the Final Rule was contrary to §170 of the tax code. The crux of §170 as it applies to charitable contributions is that the taxpayer cannot receive a quid pro quo—because, if so, then the payment does not really represent a contribution or a gift. In other words, to the extent a taxpayer receives a benefit that is commensurate with the payment, it really isn't a gift. The Second Circuit reasoned, among other things, that the argument from the states misstates the quid pro quo principle (meaning that it was not the taxpayer's desire to claim the § 170 deduction that was disqualifying, but rather it was the receipt of the state tax credit). The result? The Second Circuit sided with the federal government, finding that the Final Rule was neither arbitrary nor capricious. Tax Filings And Deadlines 📅 September 15, 2025. Third quarter estimated payments due for individual taxpayers. 📅 September 30, 2025. Due date for individuals and businesses impacted by recent terrorist attacks in Israel. 📅 October 15, 2025. Due date for individuals and businesses affected by wildfires and straight-line winds in southern California that began on January 7, 2025. 📅 November 3, 2025. Due date for individuals and businesses affected by storms in Arkansas and Tennessee that began on April 2, 2025. Tax Conferences And Events 📅 August 26-September 16 (various dates), 2025. IRS Nationwide Tax Forum in New Orleans, Orlando, Baltimore and San Diego. Registration required (discounts available for some partner groups). 📅 September 17-18, 2025. National Association of Tax Professionals Las Vegas Tax Forum. Paris Hotel, Las Vegas, Nevada. Registration required. 📅 Sept. 26-27, 2025. National Association of Tax Professionals Philadelphia Tax Forum. Sheraton Philadelphia Downtown, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Registration required. Trivia NEW YORK - JANUARY 5: Bernard Madoff (C) walks out from Federal Court after a bail hearing in Manhattan January 5, 2009 in New York City. (Photo by) Getty Images The Bernie Madoff scandal is considered the biggest Ponzi scheme in history. After he pleaded guilty to fraud charges, how long was his prison sentence? (A) 25 years (B) 50 years (C) 100 years (D) 150 years Find the answer at the bottom of this newsletter. Positions And Guidance The IRS Identity Protection PINs, also referred to as IP PINs, are a critical defense tool against identity thieves. As part of its Security Summit, the IRS encourages taxpayers to enroll in the IP PIN program. There are no new stimulus checks from the IRS. Several news outlets have picked up an outdated story about stimulus checks to suggest that "new" checks are coming from the IRS. Those news stories are confusing the timeline for the older stimulus checks. Earlier this year, the IRS mailed checks to those who missed the RRC in 2021 (returns filed in 2022, for stimulus checks related to COVID). It wasn't new—it was intended to help folks who failed to get their stimulus check in 2021 or 2022. If you didn't get one then, and the IRS didn't catch it, you could have filed to claim it, but that window closed months ago, in April. (FWIW, the IRS confirmed that most taxpayers received their check). Noteworthy Atlanta-based law firm Wiggam Law has added Mark Mesler as senior counsel. Mesler brings experience in tax controversy, IRS practice and procedure and high-stakes tax resolution for corporations and high-net-worth individuals. Loeb & Loeb has announced the arrival of Natan Leyva to the firm's Washington, DC office. Leyva advises on domestic and international matters, including M&A, financing and capital markets transactions, with deep experience in U.S. federal tax rules governing international and cross-border deals. KPMG LLP announced its next national line of business and sector leaders. The newly named line of business leaders include Manish Madhavani (Financial Services), Chris Marston (Government & Healthcare), Dave Neuenhaus (Asset Management & Private Equity, Heather Rice, (Products) and Chad Seiler (Technology, Media and Telecom). The national sector leaders are Frank Albarella (Media & Telecommunications), Drew Corrigan (Healthcare), Todd Fowler (Energy, Natural Resources and Chemicals), Andy Gottschalk (State, Local and Education), Brian Higgins (Industrial Manufacturing), Cecil Mak (Technology), Kristin Ciriello Pothier (Life Sciences), Duleep Rodrigo (Consumer & Retail), Yesenia Scheker-Izquierdo (Asset Management), Peter Torrente (Banking & Capital Markets), Sean Vicente (Insurance) and Don Zambarano (Private Equity). Detroit City FC's new stadium will pay property taxes, according to the club's CEO, Sean Mann. AlumniFi Field will be located at the corner of Michigan Avenue and 20th Street before the 2027 season begins. The $150 million stadium will seat 15,000 spectators. 'It's a true civic endeavor that puts our values into action in the most sizable way to date so far,' said Mann. 'And with that, I'm proud to say, this will also be the only privately owned, privately financed stadium in Detroit, meaning it's the only pro stadium that pays property taxes.' Detroit's other major sports stadiums, including Ford Field, are owned by local government agencies and are not required to pay property taxes. — If you have tax and accounting career or industry news, submit it for consideration here or email me directly. In Case You Missed It Here's what readers clicked through most often in the newsletter last week: You can find the entire newsletter here. Trivia Answer The answer is (D) 150 years. According to the FBI, Madoff started out as a legitimate market maker, matching potential buyers with stocks. When Madoff lost money, he created fake trades and profits to keep up the appearance that he was making money for his clients. The feds reported that at the height of the fraud, Madoff owned four homes, including a Manhattan penthouse and a home in the French Riviera. He also owned three yachts. When the markets fell, investors tried to withdraw $1.5 billion, but there was only $300 million in the bank. Eventually, the scheme unraveled and Madoff was arrested. He pleaded guilty and was convicted on March 12, 2009. On June 29, he was sentenced to 150 years in prison. He died in April 2021, just 12 years into the lengthy sentence, at the age of 82. Feedback How did we do? We'd love your feedback. If you have a suggestion for making the newsletter better, submit it here or email me directly
New York Times
8 hours ago
- New York Times
This World-Renowned Negotiator Says Trump's Secret Weapon Is Empathy
Whether it's in the realm of tariffs, domestic politics or global conflicts, President Trump likes to boast about his deal-making mastery. But while his supporters may agree with him — buoyed by his aggressiveness in pursuing trade agreements — his detractors see something else. For them, he has earned the acronym TACO: Trump Always Chickens Out. Whatever your politics, the way Trump conducts his negotiations so publicly on social media has made it almost mandatory to have a take on how he goes about his business. But what does an actual negotiation expert see in the 'dealmaker in chief'? I turned to Chris Voss for an answer. Voss was at the F.B.I. for nearly 25 years, where he was its lead international kidnapping negotiator and worked on over 150 hostage negotiations. Since leaving the bureau, he has become a highly influential public speaker and private coach and is the founder and chief executive of the Black Swan Group, a company that teaches negotiation around the world. Voss's book on negotiation strategies, 'Never Split the Difference,' written with Tahl Raz, has sold millions of copies since being published in 2016. Voss's work is rooted in what he calls 'tactical empathy,' which is all about understanding your counterpart — not necessarily agreeing with them. To help unlock that understanding, he recommends a variety of techniques like conversational mirroring, strategic self-criticism and a mindful change of vocal tone to defuse tension. I spoke with Voss about Trump's negotiation skills, his formative experiences in hostage negotiation and the benefit of approaching life as a deal waiting to be made. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Amazon | iHeart | NYT Audio App How did you wind up becoming a hostage negotiator? I was originally a SWAT guy. I was on the SWAT team in Pittsburgh and transferred to New York, trying out for the F.B.I.'s hostage-rescue team — the FBI's equivalent of the Navy Seals. I reinjured an old knee injury and realized that I wanted to stay in crisis response, but I was going to continue to get injured as a SWAT-er. So we had hostage negotiators. How hard could it be? I talk to people every day. I volunteered for the negotiation team, was rejected and asked what I could do to get on. The woman that was in charge said, 'Go volunteer on the suicide hotline.' I did, and discovered the magic of emotional intelligence. I was hooked. That got me on the hostage-negotiation team, and I never looked back. Is there a story that stands out from early in your career of a situation that really taught you something? I negotiated the Chase Manhattan bank robbery. Bank robberies with hostages are rare events. The lead bank robber at the Chase bank said: 'The guys I'm with are so dangerous, I'm scared of them. If they catch me on the phone with you guys. … ' He was doing his best to diminish his influence. He was putting up a smoke screen. This bad guy in the bank actually displayed the characteristics of a great C.E.O. negotiator. A great C.E.O. at the negotiation table is going to say: 'Look, man, I got all these people I'm accountable to. If I make the wrong decision here, my board's going to fire me. I'm scared to death of my board.' You've got to watch out for the guy who's diminishing his authority at the table. That's an influential dude, and that was exactly what this guy was doing. Your approach is rooted in 'tactical empathy.' Can you explain what that is and why it's effective in negotiation? The real roots are in Carl Rogers, an American psychologist from the '50s, '60s, '70s. He wrote that when someone feels thoroughly understood, you release potent forces for change within them. Not agreed with, but understood. When you feel thoroughly heard, you're less adversarial. And the demonstration of understanding, the articulation of the other side's point of view — purely that, no agreement at all — that's the application of empathy. How did the word 'tactical' get put in front of it? Because you want to appeal to men? That's exactly it. Empathy is thought of as: 'Oh, I feel bad for you. I'm on your side.' This soft, spongy thing. Back when Hillary Clinton ran for president, she said, I'm going to use empathy in international negotiations, and she gets barbecued for it as if it's weakness. It's not. So we threw the word 'tactical' in front of it. The same way you can't teach a Navy SEAL 'yoga breathing'; you've got to tell them it's 'tactical breathing.' How much does it matter if the person across the negotiating table has empathy for you? What if they're disrespectful or dismissive? Is that insurmountable? No, it's not. Let's talk about empathy as a skill, not an emotional characteristic. If you start there, then it frees you up to use it as a skill with anybody on earth. Because the act of trying to articulate how the other side is feeling calms you down. It kicks in a certain amount of reason in you. It broadens your perspective. Now, what's the percentage of people that will never go there? Hostage negotiators are successful roughly 93 percent of the time. You've got to accept the fact that 7 percent of the time, you're never going to make a deal with the other person. Earlier this year, Elon Musk said that empathy is 'the fundamental weakness of Western civilization.' He called it a 'bug' that can be manipulated. Do you give any credence to that kind of thinking? The first thing is: What's your definition of empathy? If it's being able to articulate the other side's point of view without agreeing with it or disagreeing with it, it's not a weakness. It's a highly evolved application of emotional-intelligence analysis. Now, is it manipulation? Similar to a knife, in one person's hand it's a murder weapon, and in another person's hand it's a scalpel and saves the life. So it's an incredibly powerful tool that relies upon the user. In 'Never Split the Difference,' you write about how life revolves around negotiation. In the last 10 years or so, the idea that negotiation is pervasive has been amplified because of one person: President Trump. He's constantly publicly engaging in negotiation, using this giant megaphone of social media. From my vantage point, his strategies look like they're all about threats and asserting leverage and trying to limit the other side's choices. But when you see Trump negotiating, what's your assessment? It's hard to get a solid gauge on him. Social media posts are limited and lack context, and everybody in the media either loves him or hates him, which means the interpretation is going to be skewed. What I'm struck by is the reaction of people that talk to him in person and the outcomes. [Former] prime minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau — he and Trump have thrown rocks at each other for years. Trudeau goes down to Mar-a-Lago, they meet in person; suddenly, they've got a deal. Zelensky, leader of Ukraine: that rock fight in the Oval Office, and then they're talking to each other at the pope's funeral. They've got a deal. So he appears publicly to be a blunt object, and then in person he seems to make deals. What's going on when he meets in person? I think there are emotional-intelligence skills that don't translate through the media, which he appears to have a gut instinct and knack for. It's probably an oversimplification to say that Trudeau and Trump sat down and made 'a deal.' But what effect does perception about the other person have in negotiation? The example that comes to mind is this term, 'TACO': Trump Always Chickens Out. If someone Trump is negotiating with has an awareness that he's bothered by that term, and if Trump also knows there's a perception that he chickens out, will it have an effect on the negotiation? First of all, why are people using that term? Because they know it's getting under his skin. So they're not on his side. He seems to be very aware of those sorts of things. If you hit somebody two or three times or something gets under your skin, eventually they're going to go: 'Ah, you're trying that on me again. It used to work. Sorry, not anymore. You taught me a lesson. I learned it.' Do you think Trump is a good negotiator? You know him a little, right? In passing. The crisis hotline I volunteered on was part of his family's church. I became very good friends with the minister, Arthur Caliandro, and Arthur was friends with President Trump. I asked Arthur to ask President Trump if we could use his apartment at Trump Tower for a fund-raiser for the crisis hotline, and they graciously let us use the apartment, and he graciously showed up and was an amazing host. He didn't have to give us an apartment, and he didn't have to show up. That was my awareness of him. So your original question was: Is he good as a negotiator? Yeah. I am blown away at the magic he's working in the Middle East, taking chances that no other American president would have ever stepped into. Starting with the Abraham Accords that were done under his guidance in his first term. Then he turns around, recognizes the president of Syria, calls for sanctions to be removed. He's operating extremely effectively in the Middle East in a way that no other president has. Does the Trump administration demonstrate empathy? I think he has a highly evolved understanding of how other people see things. What makes you say that? The thing with Iran recently, when we decided to add to the ordnance being dropped on the nuclear sites. The reporting was that Israel was thinking about trying to take out the Iranian leader and that Trump was against that. Now, my view is that's smart for a number of reasons. First of all, if you agree to take out the head of a country, you're declaring there's open season and fair is fair, which means they're free to come after you. To me, there's a sense of empathy there. Not necessarily agreeing, not being on their side, but if empathy is understanding how somebody sees it, I think he has a highly evolved sense of it. Do you think he has a highly evolved sense of empathy when it comes to understanding how other people 'see it' on immigration? Yeah, and then I think he's making a calculation based on what he needs to move forward. I don't think he is oblivious to how people see things, and to lack empathy is to be oblivious. Now, what decisions that causes you to make is a whole separate issue. I need to stick with empathy and Trump and immigration. Help me understand how the way ICE functions is the result of a remotely empathetic understanding of other people. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not on the ground with those guys. I don't know what kind of orders are being given. Do you want a system where the guy who's in charge tells you to do one thing and you say, 'No, I am not doing it'? Then the system breaks down. If you think the thing is wrong, you probably should say, 'I'm not doing it.' Right? There are really tough questions about that as an individual. I'm seeing it from a distance. I'm not in a position to be able to offer an informed opinion on it, and yeah, I'm dodging your question. Fair enough. I'm sure you must work with people all the time who come to you because they're afraid of negotiation. My hunch is that a lot of the fear of negotiation is related to a fear of conflict. Yeah, in general terms, two out of three people are afraid of conflict. One of them loves it. I hate those people. They're tough, right? They beat you up, call you names and then say, 'Let's go have a drink.' And you're like: 'What? You just called me names! You want to have a drink with me? You've got to be kidding.' Most people don't like conflict. Some people are afraid of it. Some people just see it as inefficient, it's a waste of time. As soon as they begin to see that we can engage in negotiations and it's not a conflict, and we can make it collaborative — I'm going to brag, but there's a point to it. The book globally sold five million copies and sells well in every country that it's in. What that tells me is there's a global appetite to collaborate. People don't want to fight. They would prefer to collaborate. They're just not sure how to get there. One of my best friends, an entrepreneur who runs his own company, said that he can tell when he's in a negotiation with someone who has also read 'Never Split the Difference.' What advice do you have for someone who has entered into a negotiation and understands that both sides are playing the same game? So first of all, it's not if it's going to happen, it's when. The book sold millions of copies. OK, OK. How many books did I sell again? Could you remind me? [Laughs.] My gut instinct right away is: What's it being used for? Are you trying to collaborate with me? Or are you trying to cheat me? I'm going to be able to smell your intent early on. Are you using the skills to demonstrate understanding to get to an outcome? I've got no problem with that. Everybody on my team uses this stuff on me. I encourage them to do so. So far we've talked about your ideas and about your work, but I don't feel like I have a firm handle on Chris Voss. Hold on. Are you going to make me cry? I hope so. Do you want to cry? I'm a very emotional guy. I probably don't look that way, but deep down inside it's soft and gooey. My sense of people who are focused on how to effectively manage interpersonal communication or who develop systems for getting along with other people is that those interests don't develop in a vacuum. Maybe they have to do with a desire for control? I'm not sure control. I like solutions. I suppose I would have been attracted to the idea of control in my younger days. The first time I came across the phrase in a negotiation — 'the secret to gaining the upper hand in a negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control' — I went, Oh, all right. So that resonates with me. And me being an assertive — I think assertives like to have control. They want to steer things. So that may be a vulnerability of mine, wanting control. Possibly. What's a negotiation that you lost in your life — not your work — that stands out? Getting divorced. I told my son just a couple of years ago: There is no question I could have been a better man. Simultaneously, that doesn't mean it would have changed things. As we look back over our lives, that's a critical issue: Could I have done it better, and would it have changed the outcome? Those aren't the same thing. I suppose the negotiation overall for my marriage — I was unaware of the impact of being direct and honest and harsh and could have been a far better human being, a far better man. Would that have changed things? I don't know. Earlier, you brought up that hostage negotiators are successful roughly 93 percent of the time and unsuccessful roughly 7 percent. When were you part of the 7 percent? The first time things went really bad was working in the Philippines, the Martin Burnham-Guillermo Sobero case. Sobero was murdered by Abu Sayyaf early on. A lot of Filipinos died. Two out of three of the Americans that were taken were ultimately killed. That was a big wake-up call to get better and that sometimes it's not going to work out. Then there was a string of kidnappings Al Qaeda did in the 2004 time frame. They were killing everybody they would get their hands on. They wanted to make it look like they were negotiating when they weren't. It was kidnapping for murder. So when you're working on a negotiation and a hostage gets killed, how do you move on from that? It seems to me there would be a pretty strong impulse to walk away from the work. There is, and that's the critical issue between the people that want to hang in there and get better and those that are defeated by failure. A lot of people are defeated by failure. Understandably. Understandably. I never blamed anybody that was involved to want to bow out and go do something else. When Martin Burnham was killed — that was the first hostage I ever lost — I thought that was the worst moment of my life. Until: I remember sitting in the audience for another hostage negotiator's presentation, probably about four years later. He talked about the trauma of this infant getting killed, and he said, 'I don't know why I keep talking about this, giving a presentation.' He says, 'Because it's something bad that happened to me on a winter's day.' I remember thinking: Happened to you? That wasn't your child. That wasn't your brother. That wasn't your son. I remember thinking: This is exactly as self-centered as I've been. Yeah, it was bad for you. It was worse for others. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. I want to take things in a different direction. In 'Never Split the Difference,' you're somewhat critical of the idea of compromise. What's wrong with compromise? Well, compromise is guaranteed lose-lose. There's no way around that. That's not just a matter of perspective? Why couldn't a lose-lose compromise just as easily be understood as a win-win? [Pause.] Wow, OK. Why couldn't it just as easily be understood as a win-win? Yeah, why is it necessarily lose-lose? Well, compromise is: I believe I have an outcome in mind, and you believe you have an outcome in mind. We're not sure which is right, so I'm going to water down mine, you're going to water down yours. It's a guarantee of mediocrity. It's being consigned to being a C student for the rest of your life. Now, I suppose that's superior to being an F student, but we were not built to be C students for the rest of our lives. Do you see what we're engaged in as a negotiation? Probably, yeah. I think we each are seeking to uncover some kind of truth that we can share through this conversation. We're trying to uncover something that's worth people listening to and maybe taking away and using it to make their lives better. So yeah, it's a negotiation. That's the outcome I think we're both after. And did you achieve it? I don't know. I think there's a pretty good chance we've said something together that's going to matter to somebody. Even if we only impacted one life, it was a worthy outcome. This interview has been edited and condensed from two conversations. Listen to and follow 'The Interview' on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, iHeartRadio, Amazon Music or the New York Times Audio app. Director of photography (video): Aaron Katter
Forbes
a day ago
- Forbes
What This Cybersecurity Veteran Thinks About The Future Of Cybercrime
Prior to joining CrowdStrike, Shawn oversaw half of the FBI's investigative operations as Executive Assistant Director, including all FBI criminal and cyber investigations worldwide, international operations, and the FBI's critical incident response to major investigations and disasters. He also managed computer crime investigations spanning the globe, established the National Cyber Investigative Joint Task Force, and received the Presidential Rank Award for Meritorious Executive for his leadership in enhancing the FBI's cyber capabilities. Shawn Henry, chief security officer of Crowdstrike and FBI veteran, joins 'Forbes Talks' to share the new tools and risks from AI, hacking and legacy tech.
