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Dining across the divide: ‘He talked about cancel culture going too far – Gregg Wallace came up'

Dining across the divide: ‘He talked about cancel culture going too far – Gregg Wallace came up'

The Guardian20-07-2025
Occupation Sustainability lead in the construction industry
Voting record Labour in the last election, but feels more aligned with the Green party
Amuse bouche Ben was a Pampers baby model. 'I think my mum was paid for it, and got a healthy supply of nappies'
Occupation Retired from a career in aviation
Voting record Conservative in the last election. Previously either Conservative or Lib Dem
Amuse bouche Neil likes to write, and has a computer full of unfinished novels. 'I'm good at beginnings, middles and ends, but I can't make any match'
Neil I was expecting a rabid Marxist, but my first impressions of Ben were that he was a really charming chap, and so he proved to be. He's married with four children. I'm also married with four children, but I also have grandchildren. I had crispy squid with a mango, chilli and lime salsa to begin with, then a lemon sole.
Ben We were both wearing tan chinos and a blue shirt. We were a guarded to begin with, sounding each other out. I also had the calamari, then a sea bass with new potatoes and a white creamy sauce. The food was phenomenal.
Neil Woke is a word I struggle to use. We need to get back to the old 'sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me'. You shouldn't go around saying stuff that is clearly offensive, or not true, and, if someone does, you've got every right to say, 'Don't speak to me like that', but don't completely rip them apart.
Ben I think young people are far more aware of their mental health, of the impact of trauma, of wanting to be able to live their lives in a certain way. For me, that's what we mean when we talk about woke culture, and it's a positive thing. I think Neil feels it has all gone too far, and he talked about cancel culture. Gregg Wallace came up.
Neil If it was just for saying something a bit stupid, which I'm sure we've all done, Gregg shouldn't have lost his livelihood. It should have been: look, Gregg, you're being an idiot, don't say stuff like that, it's not appropriate. And that's it, walk away. But some parts of the media have ripped him apart. If it transpires he's done something worse, any physical contact, that's a different story – then you're on your own, mate.
Ben I agree that you have to be really careful with cancel culture. I'm also OK accepting apologies from people. I do, however, believe there are people in the public domain who need to be able to stand up and be counted. If someone has been found to have made inappropriate sexual comments, then absolutely I don't think that person should be working in that industry or sector again.
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Neil I've never voted Labour, but in my view Tony Blair was the best Conservative prime minister we've had in decades! Starmer's heart's in the right place, but he could do with exhibiting a little bit more charisma. Come on, Keir, a little bit more pizzazz.
Ben I grew up in a very Tory household, and became more progressive. I do agree with sensible conservative values, but I haven't ever seen those in place. I'm not a staunch Labour voter, either; I'm a tactical voter.
Neil Three of my grandchildren live in Cornwall, and in the next 10 years they may be looking to buy somewhere. I wouldn't like to think they'll be priced out by people with second homes, but by the same token I'm not going to deny the right of somebody to do what they want with their money. An act of government that says you can only ever own one home wouldn't be appropriate; it's like a tax on being wealthy, and there are other taxes on being wealthy.
Ben I am quite happy with a local authority saying we don't have enough housing for people, so we're going to ban Airbnb, or double the council tax on them, or whatever. Their job is to make sure local people can thrive.
Ben Social media algorithms pitch people against each other. Sitting down with someone, having a discussion, is a very human way of being able to resolve some challenges.
Neil It was a case of good old-fashioned British compromise. We weren't shouty – no shaking of fists or banging the drum like you might see from our colleagues across the Atlantic. Ben gave me a lift home. Charming chap.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
Ben and Neil ate at The Wimborne Pig in Dorset
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The last time Katie Amess saw her dad, the Conservative MP Sir David Amess, he was dropping her at Heathrow for her flight home to Los Angeles. Usually, she would cry when they said goodbye, but this time neither were sad – they were both excited. In six weeks, Katie would be back for her wedding. 'It was going to be in the House of Commons and my dad could not wait to walk me down the aisle,' she says. 'He'd been practising, taking my arm, walking me around. We joked about it – we were calling it the 'royal wedding'. At the airport, we hugged goodbye and he kissed me on both cheeks. I skipped off thinking the next time I saw him would be the best day of my life.' Instead, just four weeks later, her father was murdered at his surgery, stabbed 21 times by an Islamic State sympathiser. He was buried in the suit he was going to wear to the wedding. The music planned for walking Katie down the aisle – Pachelbel's Canon – was instead played as his coffin was carried into the church. 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Two home secretaries – Priti Patel and Suella Braverman – assured the family that they were working on it, but their successor James Cleverly refused to meet them. Instead, there has been only a Prevent learning review, completed in February 2022. This gives a glimpse of Prevent's failures in the case – the strange decision‑making (why focus on student loans and western music only?), the lack of record-keeping, the absence of communication, returned emails or follow-up. 'I was absolutely gobsmacked when I read it,' says Katie. 'I could run Prevent better with my friends. If these are the people entrusted to save us from terrorism, we've got a huge problem.' Equally striking is the sparsity of the review. No one involved is identified or even interviewed. It's a review of secondhand accounts and the records kept (and not kept). 'The main conclusion it seems to draw is that so much has changed with Prevent, it's all been fixed, so we don't need to look any harder,' says Katie. 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Finally, in March, in another video call, Cooper admitted there wouldn't be an inquiry. 'My mum said: 'Look me in the eyes and tell me as his friend that you think you're doing the right thing.' Yvette Cooper could not answer.' In a formal letter, Cooper explained that it was 'hard to see' how an inquiry could go beyond what had already been established in the trial, the Prevent learning review and the coroner's report, as well as the forthcoming rapid review by Lord Anderson. 'When an elected official is killed in a church hall in broad daylight by somebody the government is monitoring, there should be an inquiry – it shouldn't even be a question,' says Amess. 'This isn't a witch-hunt, but there should be some accountability. The mistakes made cost me my father, my mother's husband, a grandfather, a brother, a son. 'I don't think we'll ever recover,' she continues. 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Do you have an opinion on the issues raised in this article? If you would like to submit a response of up to 300 words by email to be considered for publication in our letters section, please click here.

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