The making of Sunderland ‘Til I Die – but why promotion is unlikely to spark its return

New York Times

a day ago

Sunderland's return to the Premier League couldn't have come in more dramatic fashion. Dan Ballard's 122nd-minute header in the second leg of their play-off semi-final secured a place at Wembley, where Tom Watson's 95th-minute winner sealed promotion — ending their eight-year absence from the top flight.
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Just as gripping was the club's hit Netflix series, Sunderland 'Til I Die, which spanned three seasons from 2018 to 2024, The third and final season concluded with Sunderland's 2-0 win over Wycombe Wanderers in the 2022 League One playoff final.
The cameras didn't capture this season's return to the big time, so could the series make a return now that Sunderland are back in the Premier League?
On the latest episode of The Athletic FC Podcast, Ayo Akinwolere was joined by lifelong Sunderland fan and Fulwell 73 co-CEO Leo Pearlman — the production company behind Sunderland 'Til I Die — to discuss how the show came to life.
A partial transcript has been edited for clarity and length. The full episode is available below or in 'The Athletic FC Podcast' feed on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Ayo: Leo, it's interesting because you're a lifelong fan but you're also a programme maker, so you're wearing two different hats here. What was the difference from that fan's perspective to then actually being on the inside of your boyhood club?
Leo: I can't say I enjoyed it, I have to be honest. I still remember the Netflix meeting we had when we were selling the show out in Los Angeles. We had three Premier League clubs lined up for the show, and if you think back it was before 'All or Nothing' had been made. I'm not going to name the three Premier League clubs, but they're mid-table clubs who finish somewhere between eighth and 16th every year.
So Netflix were ready to do the deal, and we'd gone for these mid-tier clubs because we thought we'd get better access with them. But when I was sitting there in the meeting, I heard myself say out loud — as if I was almost hovering above myself — 'There is one other option. There's one other club I just wanted to mention.' And they went, 'OK, sure, go ahead.' And I said, 'They're called Sunderland.' And the Netflix execs went, 'Who?' And I said, 'They're pretty much like the Green Bay Packers.'
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Then they asked, 'So they win championships?' And I said, 'Not exactly, but they come from a blue-collar town, it's a one-club city, and the whole world revolves around winning or losing. They're also undoubtedly followed by some of the most passionate fans in the world, and we'll get great access because I have a good relationship with them.'
Understandably, they then asked me where they were in the table, and I said, 'Well, they're in the bottom three, but I'm pretty sure they're going to stay up.' And then they said, 'What happens if they go down?' And I just told them, 'If they go down, don't worry about it. It's going to be a Phoenix from the Flames-style series. They'll get 100 points, they'll smash the league, and it'll be really successful.'
Luckily, they thought it was a really interesting and exciting idea, so they asked me, 'Do you think we should park the other three solid Premier League clubs?' And I said, 'Yeah, park the three, let's go with Sunderland.'
As I was saying it, I was thinking to myself, 'This might be the worst idea I've ever had in my life.' I hadn't even spoken to Ellis (Short, former Sunderland owner and chairman) at that point and pitched him the idea, even though Netflix were sold in the room. I then called my two business partners Gabe and Ben, who are also Sunderland fans, and I said, 'I think I've just pivoted from X to Sunderland,' and they said 'Why on earth would you do that?'
So even throughout the process of it, I thought it was maybe a bad idea, but the fan in me got overexcited. And then when we got under the hood, the club went down that year and were bottom of the league, it wasn't even close. It wasn't like we fought really hard in the Championship, we were a write-off from almost day one. So it became apparent that this was not going to be the story on the pitch, it was going to be the story of much more. And in truth, that was the greatest gift that we got for the show because finishing mid-table in the Championship that year would have been disastrous. The show would have been pretty bad and we certainly wouldn't have done a second or third season.
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I must say, seeing under the hood and getting to really see what was happening as the club was rotting from the inside — and that's really what was happening in that first year — was incredibly depressing. Not being able to affect it, not being able to have any impact upon it, and having the cameras on the fans who cared so much, while seeing their pain and feeling it was pretty difficult. There were even a number of times when we were blamed for it. The fans sometimes said that every time we turned up with a camera, we lost. But it's not true — we just lost every week, so it coincided. Even the players and the manager blamed us, which of course was all nonsense. So it was tough, I've got to be honest.
Ayo: Is there any chance of a reboot for the Premier League campaign? Surely you've got to be licking your lips at that one is a programme maker?
Leo: Honestly, I've been asked that a thousand times since Saturday, and the answer is no. Nothing is perfect because that's a silly word to use. But I think as a TV show, the moment of us winning at Wembley for the first time since 1973, winning in the playoffs after having most fans be there eight times and see us lose, and beating Wycombe and having that moment, felt like the perfect ending to our story. It's not the ending of the story of Sunderland Football Club, we know that. But for Sunderland 'Til I Die, that felt like the ribbon and I don't know if I want to go back because I'm not sure what more we could do.
If we'd been there on Saturday and if we'd told the story this season, of course a return to the Premier League would have wrapped it up in a bow because we started with relegation. But I wrote a piece before the final, and I really did believe it in that even though it obviously mattered whether we won or lost, that wasn't the key factor. The key factor is that the fans had their club back, and that's what it feels like now.
It feels like there's something to be incredibly proud of about Sunderland Football Club again. And the credit for that goes to Kyril (Louis-Dreyfus, Chairman), Kristjaan Speakman (Sporting Director), David Bruce (Chief Business Officer) and all of the staff there who have worked unbelievably hard to get us back to this place. Wycombe was a great moment, so I'm happy with what we've done.
You can listen to full episodes of The Athletic FC Podcast for free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and watch on YouTube.
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