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Supreme Court deadlock religious charter schools with path forward

Supreme Court deadlock religious charter schools with path forward

The Hill25-05-2025
The bid to create the nation's first publicly funded religious charter school fell flat at the Supreme Court this week, but advocates believe it leaves them with a path forward.
Conservative Justice Amy Coney Barrett recused herself from the court's 4-4 deadlocked decision, suggesting she could provide the crucial fifth vote in a similar case down the road.
With the justices releasing no opinions to dissuade another shot at the Supreme Court, groups on both sides of the issue are expecting a Round 2.
'Obviously, the outcome here was in part because there were only eight justices. Justice Barrett did not participate here. That might not be the case in a future case, but we don't know of the of the eight justices who did participate … we don't know who took what position,' said Thomas Jipping, a senior legal fellow in the Edwin Meese III Center for Legal and Judicial Studies at The Heritage Foundation.
'There wasn't a decision, and you can't infer anything from silence,' he added.
For months, the fate of St. Isidore of Seville Catholic Virtual School in Oklahoma rested with the Supreme Court. The state's top court had voided the school's contract as unconstitutional.
When the justices announced in January they would review that ruling, Barrett indicated she wouldn't be participating.
She did not publicly explain her recusal, but court watchers believe it stems from her close friendship with Nicole Garnett, a professor at Notre Dame Law School. Notre Dame's religious liberty clinic represented St. Isidore, and Garnett has publicly supported the school.
'I'm obviously disappointed at the result, but the order has no precedential weight,' Garnett said in a statement. 'The question whether barring religious charter schools violates the Constitution remains live, and I remain confident that the Court will eventually rule that it does.'
Charter schools are publicly funded schools that are run by private organizations and must be open to all students. Its critics warn that the movement would take away taxpayer funding for traditional public schools and instead put those dollars toward religious education.
'The entire survival of the public school system as a nonsectarian institution in this country, a 250-year-old proposition, is at risk,' Columbia Law School professor James Liebman said.
Barrett's specific reasoning for sitting out remains unclear, as the justices have acquaintances and friends who regularly participate before the court. But her recusal was celebrated by watchdogs that have pushed for stronger ethical standards at the Supreme Court.
'Today's deadlock shows the justices have it within them to exercise ethical leadership, even if it leads to results some might deem less than supreme,' Gabe Roth, executive director of Fix the Court, said in a statement.
It leaves open the possibility Barrett could participate in a future, similar case that deals with a different school and with which the conservative justice has no conflict.
'From an institutional and an ethical perspective, it is far better that Justice Barrett sat out this case due to her conflict than exercise a purported 'duty to sit,' which would've caused an air of bias to hang over it. The religious charter school issue will undoubtedly return to the court, and we'll know Justice Barrett's views soon enough,' Roth continued.
Supporters of St. Isidore are hoping Thursday's decision is not the end of the road.
'We are exploring other options for offering a virtual Catholic education to all persons in the state,' Oklahoma City Archbishop Paul Coakley and Tulsa Bishop David Konderla, whose dioceses formed the school, said in a joint statement.
'While the Supreme Court's order is disappointing for educational freedom, the 4-4 decision does not set precedent, allowing the court to revisit this issue in the future,' said Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Jim Campbell, who argued the case before the Supreme Court on behalf of Oklahoma's charter school board.
Even those who were pleased that the court did not sign off on St. Isidore acknowledge this will not be the end to the issue.
'It would be better, of course, if we would have had the certainty of a 5-3 decision. But maybe another case will come before the court at some point. But, for today, and for next school year, and for the foreseeable future, charter schools will continue to operate on public schools as they always were,' said Starlee Coleman, president and CEO of the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools.
Liebman, who filed an amicus brief in the case opposing St. Isidore, noted the case was part of a push happening all over the country to establish publicly funded religious charter schools.
'It didn't work out as they hoped,' Liebman said. 'But they will certainly generate a new case, or many new cases, and those cases will come back to the Supreme Court, and so the issue will certainly be kept front and center.'
The case entered the religious liberty sphere advocates have been trying to break open in public schools at the Supreme Court for years.
At the crux of the dispute is whether schools such as St. Isidore should legally be considered a state actor, like an ordinary public school.
The Supreme Court has held that states may require their public schools be secular.
But the school pointed to previous cases the Supreme Court decided in Maine, Montana and Missouri, which prohibited the states from blocking religious schools' eligibility for grant programs for private schools.
Jipping said the argument fell flat as this case didn't 'line up clearly' with court precedent, and this instance was 'a little unusual to try to, well, to bring to the Supreme Court.'
'I do think also this decision and this case suggests that the better way to provide alternatives to parents, for parents to the traditional public schools is for states to expand their school choice programs,' he added.
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Al Lawson weighs in on redistricting push
Al Lawson weighs in on redistricting push

Politico

time3 hours ago

  • Politico

Al Lawson weighs in on redistricting push

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The Nvidia chip deal that has Trump officials threatening to quit
The Nvidia chip deal that has Trump officials threatening to quit

Vox

time3 hours ago

  • Vox

The Nvidia chip deal that has Trump officials threatening to quit

is a senior correspondent and head writer for Vox's Future Perfect section and has worked at Vox since 2014. He is particularly interested in global health and pandemic prevention, anti-poverty efforts, economic policy and theory, and conflicts about the right way to do philanthropy. President Donald Trump and Jensen Huang, co-founder and CEO of Nvidia, at the White House in Washington, DC, on April 30, 2025. Ken Cedeno/UPI/Bloomberg via Getty Images Whatever else can be said about the second Trump administration, it is always teaching me about parts of the Constitution I had forgotten were even in there. Case in point: Article I, Section 9, Clause 5 states that 'No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.' This is known as the export clause, not to be confused with the import-export clause (Article I, Section 10, Clause 2). The Supreme Court has repeatedly held, most recently in 1996's US v. IBM, that this clause bans Congress and the states from imposing taxes on goods exported from one state to another or from the US to foreign countries. This story was first featured in the Future Perfect newsletter. Sign up here to explore the big, complicated problems the world faces and the most efficient ways to solve them. Sent twice a week. I found myself reading US v. IBM after President Donald Trump announced an innovative new deal with chipmakers Nvidia and AMD. They can now export certain previously restricted chips to China but have to pay a 15 percent tax to the federal government on the proceeds. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but several people who are lawyers, like former National Security Council official Peter Harrell, immediately interpreted this as a clearly unconstitutional export tax (and as illegal under the 2018 Export Control Reform Act, to boot). At this point, there's something kind of sad and impotent about complaining that something Trump is doing is illegal and unconstitutional. It feels like yelling at the refs that the Harlem Globetrotters aren't playing fair; of course they aren't, no one cares. The refs are unlikely to step in here, either. The parties with the standing to sue and block the export taxes are Nvidia and AMD, and they've already agreed to go along with it. Maybe the best we can do is understand why this happened and what it means for the future of AI. A brief history of the 2025 chip war While AMD is included in the deal, for all practical purposes, the AI chips in question are being made by Nvidia — and the main one in question is the H20. As I explained last month, the H20 is entirely the product of US export controls meant to limit export of excessively powerful chips to China. Nvidia took its flagship H100 chip, widely used for AI training, and dialed its processing power (as measured in floating point operations per second) way down, thus satisfying rules restricting advanced chips that the Biden administration put in place and Trump has maintained. At the same time, it dialed up the memory bandwidth (or the rate at which data moves between the chip and system memory) past even H100's levels. That makes the H20 better than the H100 at answering queries to AI models in action, even if it's worse at training those models to start with. Critics saw this all as an attempt to obey the letter of the export controls while violating their spirit. It still meant Nvidia was exporting very useful, powerful chips to Chinese AI firms, which could use those to catch up with or leap ahead of US firms — precisely what the Biden administration was trying to prevent. In April, the Trump administration seemed to agree when it sent Nvidia a letter informing it that it would not receive export licenses for shipping H20s to China. Then, in July, reportedly after both some bargaining with China over rare earth metals and a personal entreaty from Nvidia founder and CEO Jensen Huang, Trump flip-flopped; the chips could go to China after all. The only thing new this month is that he wants to get a cut of the proceeds. That, of course, is an important new element, not least because it seems bad that the president is asserting the power to unilaterally impose new taxes without Congress. (At least with tariffs, Trump has some laws Congress passed he can cite theoretically granting the authority.) But the big question about H20s remains the same: Does this help Chinese companies like DeepSeek catch up with US companies like OpenAI? And how bad is that, if it happens? Talking through the pros and cons of H20s The concerns here are such that maybe the best way to understand them is to imagine a debate between a pro-export and anti-export advocate. I'm taking some poetic license here, in part because people in the sector are often averse to plainly saying what they mean on the record. But I think it's a fair reflection of the debate as I've heard it. Anti-Export Guy: Trump says he wants the US to have 'global dominance' in AI, and here he is, just letting China have very powerful chips. This obviously hurts the US's edge. Pro-Export Guy: Does it? Again, the H20 is powerful, but it's no H100. In any case, Chinese firms are totally allowed to rent out advanced AI chips in US-based cloud servers. DeepSeek could even rent time on an H100 that way. So, why are we freaking out about exporting a weaker chip? Anti-Export: You act like the cloud option is a loophole — it's a feature! That way, they're dependent on US servers and companies. If Chinese AI firms ever start making dangerous systems, the US can shut off their access, and they'll be out of luck. Pro-Export: Again, will they be out of luck? There's a third option after Nvidia exports and US servers. Huawei is making its own AI-optimized chips. Chinese firms don't want to depend on foreign servers forever, and if we deny them Nvidia chips, they'll run right over to Huawei chips. Pro-Export: You're exaggerating. By some metrics, Huawei's latest systems (not just the chips, but the surrounding servers) outperform Nvidia's top-end model — even though that model uses B200s that are faster than H100s and lightyears faster than you'd ever be allowed to export to China. Yes, programmers will have to learn Huawei's libraries, and transitioning from Nvidia's will take time, but it's doable. Google, Anthropic, and OpenAI have all recently moved away from Nvidia chips toward things like Google's own TPUs or Amazon's Trainiums. That took effort, but they did it. What we're fighting for I suppose we'll see, in the next few months and in the rollout of new chips from competitors like Huawei, who got the better of that argument. China is reportedly discouraging firms from using Nvidia chips in the wake of the export tax deal, largely to encourage them to use domestic chips like Huawei, though they are clearly not banning the firms from using Nvidias if they prove necessary. It's also investigating whether the US is including spyware in them. The bigger question this debate raises for me, and one I certainly can't answer adequately here, is: To what degree is 'beating China' on AI important for making the future of AI go well? The answer for most US policymakers, and most people I know in the AI safety world, has been 'very.' The Financial Times reports that some Trump officials are considering resigning in protest over allowing China to get H20s. As Leopold Aschenbrenner, the AI analyst turned hedge funder, put it bluntly in his influential 2024 essay 'Situational Awareness': 'Superintelligence will give those who wield it the power to crush opposition, dissent, and lock in their grand plan for humanity.' If China 'wins,' then, the result for humanity is permanent authoritarian repression. No doubt, the Beijing regime is brutal, and I have no faith that they will use AI wisely. I'm very confident they'll wield it to oppress Chinese citizens. But it feels as though 'staying ahead of China' has become the sine qua non of US AI policy. I worry less that this focus on China is directionally wrong and more that it is exaggerated. The bigger danger is that no one can control these systems, rather than that China can, and that the focus on staying ahead of China will cause the US to speed deployment of automated weapons systems that could prove deeply destabilizing and dangerous. As with most aspects of AI, I feel like there's a small island of things we're all sure of and a vast ocean of unknowns. I think offering China H20s probably hurts AI safety a bit. I think.

Beyond Dobbs: How Abortion Bans Enforce State-Sanctioned Violence
Beyond Dobbs: How Abortion Bans Enforce State-Sanctioned Violence

The Intercept

time3 hours ago

  • The Intercept

Beyond Dobbs: How Abortion Bans Enforce State-Sanctioned Violence

Since the Supreme Court's landmark June 2022 decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization overturned Roe v. Wade and federal abortion protections, a wave of state legislatures have rushed to impose bans and restrictions. According to the Guttmacher Institute, 41 states now have abortion bans in effect, including 12 with total bans. 'We hear about the endless, supposedly unintentional consequences of abortion bans like rising maternal mortality, child rape victims forced to travel across state lines, increased risk of criminalization, pregnant victims coerced by their abusers, all of that,' says journalist Kylie Cheung, author of 'Coercion: Surviving and Resisting Abortion Bans.' 'But I very much argue that these aren't unintended consequences.' This week on The Intercept Briefing, Cheung joins host Jessica Washington to trace the direct line from the Dobbs decision to state-sanctioned gender-based violence and control. 'This is what abortion bans function to do, which is to police and control pregnant people, to feed cycles of abuse, to be this tool in the toolbox of abusers. To enact racial violence and economic subjugation and essentially lower women and pregnant people and people who can become pregnant to this lowered class in our society,' says Cheung. 'And that is not unintentional at all. Listen to the full conversation of The Intercept Briefing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Transcript Jessica Washington: Welcome to The Intercept Briefing. I'm Jessica Washington. A year after the Supreme Court handed down the Dobbs decision — reversing Roe v. Wade and erasing decades of precedent enshrining the right to abortion — a Nebraska teenager was sentenced in connection to her abortion. Her arrest, which largely hinged on Facebook messages between the teen and her mother — garnered international attention. In court, the then 18-year-old who was only 17 at the time of her abortion, testified that she'd been in an abusive relationship and was scared of sharing a child with her abuser. 'I was honestly scared at the time,' she told District Court Judge James Kube. 'I didn't know what to do.' Despite her pleas, the judge seemingly dismissed her concerns over the abuse. In July 2023, she was sentenced to 90 days in prison for 'illegally concealing human remains' and received an additional two years of probation. Her mother, who'd helped her obtain the abortion medication, was also sentenced to two years in prison. The Nebraska teen's case is just one of countless examples of how survivors of domestic violence find themselves crushed between the intersection of abortion bans, fetal personhood laws, and the criminal legal system in the post-Dobbs era. Joining me now is Kylie Cheung, a journalist covering gender and power, and author of 'Coercion: Surviving and Resisting Abortion Bans,' her new book connecting the through lines between the Dobbs decision and state-sanctioned gender-based violence and control. Welcome to the show, Kylie. Kylie Cheung: Thank you so much for having me. JW: I want to start with this quote in your book that really hit me. You share this quote from Sara Ainsworth, senior legal and policy director at the reproductive justice legal organization If/When/How, about the reality of survivors living in states with abortion bans. She said, 'You live in a state where you're more likely to be criminalized than the person who's abusing you. It's devastating.' That's a really haunting statement. Kylie, what is the reality for survivors trying to access abortion care in states with fetal personhood laws and/or abortion bans? KC: That quote definitely really stayed with me too and there were some lawmakers, I believe, in Missouri who are trying to raise awareness about how you couldn't finalize a divorce while you're pregnant in that state. And I think what people need to know is that homicide is a leading cause of death for pregnant people and during pregnancy you might either experience abuse for the first time or abuse will escalate. And we also know that — because of incredible research projects like the Turnaway study, which tracked over the course of several years how the lives of people who sought but were unable to access abortion care — what the impacts were for the rest of their lives. And in addition to being at much greater risk of poverty or being pushed deeper into poverty, we saw that long-term domestic violence was also a much, much bigger risk, which makes sense as someone may be forced or entrapped within a relationship with an abusive partner. I also was able to speak to several people who were forced to carry rape-induced pregnancies or carry children with their rapists. And sometimes that is a choice, and sometimes it is not a choice under these laws where we already have seen: There were research estimates that at least, or around 65,000 rape-induced pregnancies had occurred in 14 states that had banned or almost banned abortion. And in most of those states, there were no exceptions for rape attached to the bans. And just within one year of Dobbs in the summer of 2023, the National Domestic Violence Hotline said that they'd received double the number of calls about reproductive coercion compared to the year before. Just last month, there was another study that showed there were 9,000 more incidents of domestic violence after Dobbs in states that had banned abortion. So we saw that these laws were associated with higher risk of intimate partner violence-related homicide. And the so-called 'beautiful bill' or the budget bill that passed, if that provision that defunds abortion providers is allowed to stand, I think Planned Parenthood has estimated that 1 in 4 abortion providers across the country could be forced to shut down. But you know, what we really see is the abuser and the state occupying this conjoined role. JW: Yeah, I'm really glad that you wrote about this. So often domestic violence is left out of this narrative. And I think, you and I've covered this now for a while, [we] know how central it is to kind of everything that we're talking about in reproductive justice. One of the cases you dig into is the story of the Nebraska teenager who was imprisoned after having an abortion, and whose claims of domestic violence were seemingly ignored in her sentencing. But when I was researching for this episode, I found that most news outlets didn't mention the alleged abuse. Why did you choose to highlight that aspect of her story, and why do you think so many news outlets didn't? KC: There are so many takeaways, and there's so much about that specific case that are horrifying and dystopian. Like, for example, it fell into the pattern of what we often see, which is that so often people are reported to police by acquaintances, by neighbors, by community members. And then you also see her text messages — like her digital history and that way — via Meta were also used. And that raised a lot of questions about the extent to which Big Tech and these social platforms and corporations are going to participate. On a personal level, what stood out to me the most was that she had the abortion because she was in an abusive relationship. Hold on. I'm trying to pull up the quote from the judge because it upset me a lot, honestly, where he said, 'I don't get the impression, from reading all the reports in the pre-sentence investigation report, that there was some kind of physical health issue that was going on. I tried to talk to you about that a little bit, and you confirmed that you just didn't want this baby. You didn't want this pregnancy based on the person that got you pregnant.' I mean, that quote, it just angered me so much — the way that I could just lose sleep thinking about it because there's so many different layers to that. For one thing, he said, 'You just didn't want this pregnancy.' Why isn't that enough for one thing? And, 'You didn't want this pregnancy based on the person that got you pregnant.' JW: Yeah, I remember that quote. That really stood out to me. I'm glad you included that in your book and brought that up now because I think that quote is really important for people to hear. I want to talk about some of the other stories, though, from your book. I think some of the most powerful and haunting stories that I read in your book were about women who were effectively held against their will in hospitals over perceived risks to their fetuses, and in some cases allegedly forced into medical procedures such as having a C-section. Many of these cases predate the Dobbs decision. Are you able to talk about some of these cases or one of these cases? And also how is this legal? KC: What we've seen so far is that more and more hospitals and doctors in response to someone experiencing pregnancy complications that could vary straightforwardly and safely and simply be alleviated with an emergency abortion, instead, we've seen cases where doctors feel that they have to perform a much more complicated procedure, a much more invasive procedure, or C-sections instead of these emergency abortions to alleviate pregnancy complications or remove remains from a non-viable pregnancy via C-section, which can come with greater risk of fertility loss, and can come with greater risk of complications, and is obviously much more invasive and has a much greater recovery time. And the most important thing, obviously, is that people experiencing these complications probably don't want that procedure performed on them if they could have the much simpler and safer emergency abortion. And to your point, I think this history of hospitals holding people against their will, I think what's really interesting is some of that stems from these power dynamics between patients and provider obviously. Our health care system is very complicated, and a lot of patients go into this space not knowing their rights. And health care providers, hospitals know that and exploit that, and that's incredibly unfortunate. And then the other thing is when we accord fetuses or embryos personhood status, that is inherently at odds with the pregnant person's rights. When there's that separation, that renders the pregnant person exponentially more vulnerable to state violence and policing of behaviors that otherwise wouldn't be an issue if they weren't pregnant. And we see that so often with criminalization cases — I've spoken to experts at the wonderful organization, Pregnancy Justice, which provides legal representation and support to people who are experiencing criminalization related to pregnancies. One expert I spoke to told me that about 97 percent of cases they've worked on involving pregnancy-related criminalization, it wasn't under abortion bans or you're charged with having an abortion. It was for manslaughter, feticide, child endangerment, abuse of a corpse, all of these laws that are weaponized and misapplied to fetuses. And you know, to allow the state to control the behaviors of the pregnant person — behaviors that otherwise would not be criminalized. JW: And I think that's a really important point, and you make this point in the book, and I think it's worth reiterating. It's not so much that these hospitals have the right to hold these women against their will but the system is so confusing that people don't know when they're told, you know, 'you can't leave,' they don't know that they have the right to do that. And I want to talk about a case that you mentioned that really shocked me. It was the case of Tara Rule. So Tara Rule sued her provider, who she alleges denied her medication for severe cluster headaches just because she was of 'childbearing age' and the medication could cause a hypothetical fetus to have birth abnormalities. Her provider has denied essentially all of her claims about what happened, and the lawsuit is ongoing. You interviewed Tara for Jezebel back in 2023. What did she make of a potential fetus being prioritized over a living person? How should we try to understand this case? KC: The framework of fetal personhood stretch out beyond there even being a fetus or embryo present in reality to just hypotheticals about someone's future fertility, someone's future children. The end game of fetal personhood, which is very much rooted in dehumanizing the woman, the pregnant person, even just the pregnant capable person. There are some scholars who've developed the term zero trimester where we live in this culture where even if you're not pregnant or you don't want to be, it's just assumed you're going to be someday. And one more thing specific to Tara Rule's case. I think it's shocking and deeply upsetting and her condition is so painful that it's associated with higher risk of suicide. And the treatments are very few and far between, but she was told by this doctor, this surgeon that yes there is a treatment that could help, but it would impact your fertility. And she didn't want to have kids and her partner didn't want to have kids and she was told point blank that if she were not of childbearing age then they would give it to her. But I think that at the same time that I spoke to her, there were numerous other cases of children, like actual children who suffered from these different conditions that required medications that were deemed to be abortifacient, so their pharmacists wouldn't prescribe them. We hear about the endless, supposedly unintentional consequences of abortion bans like rising maternal mortality, child rape victims forced to travel across state lines, increased risk of criminalization, pregnant victims coerced by their abusers, all of that. But I very much argue that these aren't unintended consequences. This is what abortion bans function to do, which is to police and control pregnant people, to feed cycles of abuse, to be this tool in the toolbox of abusers. To enact racial violence and economic subjugation and essentially lower women and pregnant people and people who can become pregnant to this lowered class in our society. And that is not unintentional at all. JW: Yeah, I think framing it that way is really powerful when we're talking about these exceptions and we're talking about, 'Oh, well, we didn't mean to do this and that.' Read Our Complete Coverage [Break] JW: I want to jump into some more recent news. In June, the Trump administration rescinded Biden-era guidance directing hospitals that take Medicare to provide stabilizing abortion care to patients in medical emergencies as required by the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act. What impact will rescinding this have on pregnant people? KC: Even when Biden was in office, it was just pure chaos in terms of, yes, we have these laws, and state abortion bans might on paper have these very questionable and deliberately nebulous exceptions. But what the Trump administration did with rescinding that guidance, I mean we're seeing a lot of these horrific cases even when we had that guidance in place. And I think it's just very disturbing to see that this administration is effectively trying to green light or give the OK for hospitals to further neglect and endanger their patients' lives in this way. Under federal law there should be no ambiguity where there is just a requirement, whether someone's pregnant or not, where you provide that stabilizing care. You know, I think that we've already seen ProPublica's reporting on at least five cases of women who have died as a result of not being able to receive timely emergency abortion care. And the problem that arose was these hospitals were so afraid of — it's so morbid and dehumanizing and disgusting — but is she close to death enough for us to operate where we won't go to prison? And the fact is that people are going to die because of pregnancy complications and something like sepsis, that arises when you are not able to remove remains from a non-viable pregnancy for too long and they stay there in the uterus. There is no linear timeline of what someone's condition will be when they're experiencing that. It could be, they might seem kind of stable and then within minutes are on the brink of death. And when we're using this wait and see approach, that is just fundamentally incompatible with providing this kind of care. And the other thing is, even if someone does survive, their long-term health could be severely impacted. Their lifespan could be shortened. Maybe they want to continue to have children, but their fallopian tube collapsed from sepsis and their fertility is severely impacted. We've seen several cases of that in Texas in the lawsuit where these women who nearly died from Texas's abortion ban sued; just asking for clarity in the supposed exceptions in Texas's ban. And the state Supreme Court dismissed their case. And it's just horrific. JW: And I don't want to spoil too much of your book, but I think another really important thing that you get into there is kind of how states are trying to hide some of this maternal death data, and trying to not make these connections between these abortion bans and maternal deaths. I want to continue on some recent news. What are you following in the reproductive health space? What are you covering that you think people should be paying attention to? KC: Yeah, I mean that's a great question. I just recently moved to working at the Abortion Every Day newsletter that Jessica Valenti started a few years ago. And when you are reporting on abortion every day, you see all of these different trends or these different strategies that anti-abortion lawmakers are deploying. A strategy I think we're very much seeing among the anti-abortion movement is this pivot to framing or just equating taking abortion pills with coercion and abuse. Like those are the words and the allegations they really want to make. I mean, look at earlier this year in Louisiana where there was a mother who it seems or allegedly ordered abortion pills from a doctor in New York that she gave to her daughter. That is the narrative that they are just going with and calling the provider a drug dealer who victimized the child, I believe is the quote from like the Louisiana Attorney General. So co-opting and weaponizing terms like coercion and abuse when the reality is abortion bans are creating all of these new vulnerabilities for actual abuse victims. Texas had introduced a bill to require wastewater plants to test for abortion pill remains or whatnot. When the FDA approved abortion [pills] over two decades ago, they had an environmental impact report already. And there is no environmental impact of taking abortion pills. So we saw that bill in Texas, but there was a bill introduced in Congress that's also about infringing on access to abortion pills by suggesting that people are contaminating the water systems by having them. And that is just not true at all. JW: I want to talk about the history aspect of your book, and specifically the modern connections between the white supremacist movement and anti-abortion movements in the United States. How do these two movements align and which groups are most impacted by these bans? KC: Yeah, absolutely. A book that I read, toward the end of writing this was, 'Liberating Abortion' by Renee Bracey Sherman and Regina Mahone. They excavate so much history that we have not been told before. And not necessarily even because it was very hard to find, but because journalists simply were not looking for the stories of women of color and certainly Black women who were providing and receiving abortion care on their own terms throughout history. Abortion bans and abortion restrictions always have carried the greatest harm and impact on people of color and communities of color, and build on this very long history of state violence against these communities. Under white supremacy and under capitalism, communities of color often have the least resources that are increasingly being required to navigate all of these massive barriers to travel and access abortion and cover all of those different costs. And so when we have these laws that further shroud pregnancy itself in criminal suspicion where, pregnancy itself under abortion bans what's implicit in that is that all of our pregnancies are now effectively just shrouded in this criminal risk and potential for state surveillance and punishment. And, that very obviously carries disproportionate vulnerability among women of color, among Black women, among Indigenous women. All of that is to say, when we operate at the nexus of criminalization and state reproductive coercion and pregnancy policing, it's very clear who is going to be targeted. JW: I think covering this issue for a while, one thing you notice is when people don't mention racism and white supremacy, a lot of their coverage in theory kind of begins and ends at Roe and Dobbs and ignores this long history. And this is kind of personal, so bear with me on this, but this is obviously a pretty white space covering reproductive health, covering reproductive justice. Do you think that because you're coming from a non-white perspective, you are seeing things, you are talking about things that are often missed in this space? KC: That's a really great question. Definitely. And there have been a lot of different tensions and frustrations within the space of people who work within reproductive rights and justice. And I have spoken to a lot of people who are maybe the rank and file at some of these larger organizations and have felt very understandably frustrated. At the end of the day, I guess, whether I realize it or not, I am very much guided by who I am and obviously what I care deeply about. JW: Yeah. Thank you, Kylie. I've been impressed watching your career for a while now, your ability to combine these issues, to weave them in and out. To me, reproductive justice can never just be coverage of abortion. It can never just be coverage of birth control or one thing. This unified theory of reproductive justice is really important. And having people in this space who talk about that is so critical. And I want to touch on something else that you said earlier. You were kind of talking about the abortion hierarchy. I think one thing I know we both think about when covering this issue is: How do we get people to care, and how do we highlight abortion stories that get people's attention without reinforcing this hierarchy or this idea that some abortions are morally justified and others aren't? How did you approach that when writing this book, and how do you approach that in your reporting? KC: Drawing on my background of reporting and writing about gender-based violence is so often we're told there are — implicitly or explicitly — that there are good victims or bad victims, and we're similarly told that there are good abortions and bad abortions. What's so important, or what I really try to emphasize is despite these like innately sexist and surface level supposed distinctions under rape culture, under abortion, bans, all survivors and all abortion-seekers are dehumanized and denied agency. JW: You know, this is someone I think we've both interviewed before, Oriaku Njoku who used to run the National Network of Abortion Funds. To me, they said joy is essential to covering this, to being a part of this movement. Reproductive justice requires you to have joy because you have to be able to believe in a better world. You can't just focus on kind of the bleak aspects of this work. And so I wanted to ask you, when you're covering this, when you're in this movement, what are you looking for? How are you finding joy? KC: We see every day that absolutely none of this is survivable without community. These conditions that we're all being put under are horrible, but it just has been incredibly beautiful to see the ways that people will step in to help each other and bridge those needs, even when we see so many cases of anti-abortion leaders in the state trying to make an example of this person or that person. That will never be enough to make people stop wanting to help each other, and that I think is really beautiful. JW: Yeah, it's a beautiful closing message, and we're going to leave it there. But thank you so much for joining me on the Intercept Briefing, Kylie. KC: Thank you so much for having me and for all the amazing work that you all do. JW: That does it for this episode of The Intercept Briefing. We want to hear from you. Share your story with us at 530-POD-CAST. That's 530-763-2278. You can also email us at podcasts@ This episode was produced by Truc Nguyen. Laura Flynn is our Supervising Producer. Sumi Aggarwal is our executive producer. Ben Muessig is our editor-in-chief. Chelsey B. Coombs is our social and video producer. Fei Liu is our product and design manager. Nara Shin is our copy editor. Will Stanton mixed our show. Legal review by Shawn Musgrave. Slip Stream provided our theme music. You can support our work at Your donation, no matter the amount, makes a real difference. If you haven't already, please subscribe to The Intercept Briefing wherever you listen to podcasts. And tell all of your friends about us, and better yet, leave us a rating or a review to help other listeners find us. Until next time, I'm Jessica Washington. Thanks for listening.

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