Higher interest rates smashed landlord profits, but negative gearing means few sold up
His confidence in property investing cannot be overstated.
"To me it's definitely a no-lose game, it's the best way to create wealth in Australia," he says.
Mr Dilleen runs his own buyers agency, and his holdings make him one of 166 mega landlords identified by the ATO as owning 20 or more rentals in their own name during the 2022/23 tax year.
Mr Dilleen says despite amassing immense property wealth on paper, his personally held rentals run at a loss.
"The biggest thing that I would focus on would be the capital growth and the ability to take that equity out from those properties and further expand," he says.
Cash flow "would be the last thing" Mr Dilleen says he would focus on.
It is an approach that appears shared by most of the country's largest investors.
The ATO data, released exclusively to the ABC, shows the only investors making an average rental loss in 2022/23 were those with 19 or more property interests, both on an individual investor and individual rental basis.
The losses put mega landlords at the extreme end of a trend that swept through the rental market that year.
In 2022/23, profits from investor-owned rentals plummeted 73 per cent.
In dollar figures, that equated to net rental income (income after expenses) falling from almost $5.9 billion in 2021/22, to less than $1.6 billion in 2022/23.
Despite the drop, investor numbers, and the number of rentals they owned, shrank less than 1 per cent, suggesting falling rental profitability did not trigger any significant rental sell-off.
Rachel Ong ViforJ, professor of economics at Curtin University, says she was so shocked at the collapse in rental revenues, she had to check it twice.
"It's quite astounding," she says.
Professor Ong ViforJ put the fall in profitability down to surging interest rates, plus rising rental management and repair costs.
According to Reserve Bank figures, the average interest rate on variable-rate loans to property investors in 2022-23 was 5.7 per cent, up from 3.4 per cent in 2021-22 and just 3.5 per cent in 2020-21.
The rise put the interest paid by investors at its highest since 2018-19, when it averaged 5.89 per cent.
Although total net revenues remained positive, it was likely many rentals became loss-making that year, Professor Ong ViforJ says.
She puts the lack of a widespread landlord sell-off down to two things: negative gearing rules allowing investors whose rentals were losing money to reduce their personal tax bills, and the promise of a large payday when rentals are sold, sweetened by the 50 per cent capital gains discount.
The combination of these two tax breaks makes property investing attractive, she argues.
The drop in rental profitability occurred despite a period of rapid rent increases, when rents jumped 7-9 per cent annually.
Tim Lawless, chief analyst at property analytics firm Cotality, says the significant rise in rents from mid-2020 had "very little to do" with the interest rates expenses investors were facing.
"The underlying forces of demand and supply were at play," he says.
Independent economist Saul Eslake says some investors will have "welcomed" their rentals losing money in the higher interest environment.
"They wouldn't have planned to have been positively geared during the COVID years, because that defeats the whole purpose of negative gearing, which is to reduce tax payable on other income," he says.
The ATO data showed mega landlords with 20 or more rentals were the only group that made average losses throughout the COVID era of record-low interest rates.
Mr Eslake says this underscores the importance of negative gearing to the wealthiest investors and scuppered the argument that it was predominantly used by "mums and dads trying to get ahead".
"To which I always ask, ahead of whom?" Mr Eslake says.
"The answer — their own children and grandchildren, or their children's and grandchildren's peers."
Mr Eslake says other data from the ATO's 2022/23 Taxation Statistics reinforced it was the wealthiest investors capitalising most on negative gearing rules.
"18.8 per cent of individuals in the top tax bracket report net rental losses, as opposed to just 6.3 per cent of those who are not in the top tax bracket," he says.
A Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO) analysis, prepared at the request of former Greens MP Adam Bandt, confirmed the greatest negative gearing advantage goes to the highest-earning Australians, as do benefits gained from the capital gains discount.
The PBO analysis estimates in 2025-26, the bottom 10 per cent of wage earners in Australia will get back just $152 million from these two tax breaks, while the top 10 per cent will get back over $2.9 billion.
The same analysis shows investor tax savings, and government revenue lost, from negative gearing did jump as rental returns fell.
It shows in 2022-23, negative gearing led to lost tax revenues of $3.5 billion — $1.4 billion more than the year before.
The PBO analysis predicts the amount of tax income lost to negative gearing will rise significantly in the coming years, increasing to $5.2 billion in 2023-24, $6.5 billion in 2024-25, and will keep rising to an estimated $14.1 billion per annum by 2035-36.
Australia Institute chief economist Greg Jericho says falling rental profitability in the ATO data shows negative gearing was becoming "a much more common situation" and investors are "winning both ways".
"We've got a tax system that is geared towards making buying an investment property a pretty risk-free proposition," he says.
Mr Jericho says theoretically investors shouldn't be able to negatively gear long-term, because it means they are losing money every year.
"The only reason that is now a viable option is because of the 50 per cent capital gains discount," he argues.
"You can afford to cover those losses, and live with the rental losses for a period, reduce your overall taxable income, and then when the price of the property goes up to a worthwhile amount you can sell it and get a 50 per cent tax discount that way."
Mr Jericho says the ATO data should reignite discussions of limiting negative gearing to one or two rental properties per investor — a move that would not affect roughly 90 per cent of current investors.
The ATO data shows about 817,000 properties were held by investors with interests in three or more properties in 2022-23.
Despite this, Mr Jericho did not think limitations on negative gearing would dramatically affect house prices, as demand remained high.
"Presumably those properties would mostly go to owner-occupiers, rather than investors [if they were sold]," he says.
Mr Jericho's call echoes those of the Australian Council of Trade Unions, and the Australian Council of Social Services, both of which are calling for bold changes to negative gearing and the capital gains tax, with the latter wanting to see the tax revenue generated by changes invested into social housing.
Property Investment Professionals of Australia (PIPA) chair Lachlan Vidler argues against changes to negative gearing, saying it would disincentivise investment, which would mean fewer rentals and reduced house building.
Mr Vidler argues it would still damage sentiment across the sector, even if the majority of investors would be unaffected.
"Considering we are in a rental crisis, the last thing we need is less rental properties on the market from investors," he says.
Mr Vidler says Labor took negative gearing reforms to the 2019 election — an election the party lost — and voters would be shocked to see reforms back on the agenda so quickly after the recent election.
In response to the added tax revenue negative gearing reforms would likely deliver, Mr Vidler questions why rises in government spending lead to discussions of who to tax more.
"Why can't we look to be more efficient with the revenues we do create?" he argues.
The vast majority of investors (a little over 1.6 million) own one rental, and a little over 423,000 investors own or part-own two rentals.
Roughly one-in-10 investors own three or more but, because of the size of their portfolios, this relatively small group owns about a quarter of all rentals in the country.
There are 2,529 investors who each have interests in 10 or more properties, and this group owns or part-owns more than 32,600 rentals.
There are limitations on the ATO data — it doesn't capture rentals held in companies and trusts, and there is the chance some commercial properties are captured by the dataset, although economists say these numbers would be small.
To estimate how many rentals and large investors the dataset might miss, the ABC contacted multiple property investment advisories.
Data from these advisories showed roughly 70-75 per cent of clients held their rentals under their personal name, while the rest held rentals in trusts, companies or self-managed super funds, suggesting the ATO data was missing up to a third of rentals.
Amanda Turner, director of Queensland-based investor advisory Opulence Property Group, says trusts are sometimes preferred because they protect the asset if, for example, the investor is thinking of handing property down to children.
Eddie Dilleen says he holds most of his properties in trusts and companies, meaning most would not be captured in the ATO data.
Mr Dilleen speaks at length about his own childhood growing up in public housing, and how it drove his determination to buy property.
In his opinion, those struggling to buy a first home should not hate the investors — they should hate the tax rules that made the market.
However, he doesn't think those rules should change.
He says the key was figuring out the rules and how to take advantage of them.
"It's always been like that, and always will be like that."
Negative gearing was introduced in 1936, while the 50 per cent capital gains discount was introduced in 1999 and, before then, capital gains were taxed in the same way as other income, although only the "real" gain, over and above inflation, was taxed.
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Sam Hawley: It's an idea Elon Musk hasn't fully embraced just yet, and he doesn't want Teslas used for it. Some electric vehicles are already being plugged in to provide power to homes and even to the grid. Today, energy reporter, Dan Mercer, on the revolutionary technology and why the world's richest man is wary of it. I'm Sam Hawley on Gadigal land in Sydney. This is ABC News Daily. Dan, this idea that electric cars could power our homes is fascinating, really. So I just want you to explain this for us. And to do that, it's good to talk about a guy called Richard Chapman. He is a petrol head, or we call them rev heads, I think. Dan Mercer: Yeah, indeed. He's an English fella, Sam, and he lives in the port city of Fremantle in Perth in Western Australia. Richard Chapman, car enthusiast: Absolutely adored cars ever since I knew what a car was. Dan Mercer: He says he's always loved his muscle cars, but he's also not the discriminating sort. He loves electric vehicles too. Sam Hawley: Yeah, he's the sort of, in my head, he's the sort of person you don't associate with an electric car. Dan Mercer: No, but you know, it's kind of funny. He loves Top Gear, he loves the smell of petrol, he loves a car that makes a lot of noise. He equally loves these things, which are sort of the polar opposite of cars. The opposite of that in many ways. Richard Chapman, car enthusiast: I never thought I'd quite embrace the EV thing so fully, but for me now, and I've still got a three litre V6 sports car but I look at that as like a horse. Like it's expensive, it's loud, it's very inefficient. It actually doesn't go as quick as the EVs, but that's more about sort of the emotion and real passion of something like a horse. Dan Mercer: There's this popular conception that tends to have these two things in completely separate camps. But Richard really does swear by his EVs. He reckons they're just phenomenal to drive and the technology behind them is mind blowing. Yeah, the measure of it in his case is that he has three EVs, Sam. Sam Hawley: It sounds like a lot. All right, and he is, Dan, really well set up for charging all of these EVs that he has. Dan Mercer: He is. He's one of these guys who just loves getting things to work really well, taking them apart and building them back together again so he understands them intimately. So in his instance, he's got a lot of solar on his roof. He's got batteries in his house and he's got tariffs that are really cheap in the middle of the day when there's heaps of renewable energy sloshing around the grid. What he does is he tries to charge the cars during those daylight hours. That way the energy that's powering the cars is dirt cheap. Either it's coming straight from his solar panels or it's coming from the grid during a time when prices are at their lowest. And for the most part, it seems to work. Sam Hawley: Yeah, okay. So he also likes to have his cars basically fully charged most of the time. And while they're just sitting there at night and not being used, he would actually like to use some of their power, right? But not for driving around. Dan Mercer: Not for driving, no. He's got a couple of batteries fixed to the wall of his garage as flagged. He can get by most of the time fairly cheaply. There are occasions though when his solar and those batteries aren't enough. And that tends to be in winter and the shoulder seasons when there might not be that much sun around but his demand for power might be quite high. And there are times too in summer when he reckons he just needs that much power because it's so hot and he has to run the air conditioning around the clock and the batteries aren't enough. At those times, he currently has to buy the power from the grid in the evening when prices unfortunately cost a fortune. Needless to say, that's something he's pretty keen to avoid. And he says the answer to those problems should be right there in front of him in the form of the energy that's stored in his EV's batteries. Richard Chapman, car enthusiast: When the main house batteries have run out, I wanna then be able to draw off of the electric vehicles that I've got hundreds of kilowatt hours sitting there and I wanna be able to use that back again. Sam Hawley: Wow, yeah. So using the car's batteries to power his home. And the EV batteries, they're massive, aren't they? So that is a possibility, isn't it? Dan Mercer: They are huge batteries, yeah. I mean, an average household battery is probably around 10 kilowatt hours of storage. A big EV battery can be 80 kilowatt hours or more. And as Richard notes, if you've got a car with a battery with that much power, even thereabouts, that's enough to run a typical household for days at a time. Richard Chapman, car enthusiast: You could run your house for, God, completely off grid for probably a fortnight on that. Sam Hawley: Wow, okay. So it sounds like a great idea. Why doesn't he just do it? Dan Mercer: Basically because his carmaker won't let him. There are other reasons, but the biggest one is that his carmaker won't let him. Richard has a couple of Teslas and Tesla just doesn't, at this stage in Australia at least, support customers using their cars to run their homes. It's not the only business that's going on. There's a big EV brand that's cool on the idea, but it's arguably the biggest name. Richard told me, there are ways he can hook his car slash cars up to his house. The problem is those ways aren't legally kosher. So if you do it, you void the warranty on your car. And if your EV costs $100,000, say, you're just not gonna do it. Sam Hawley: So why, just explain further then, Dan, why it is that Tesla doesn't want it to happen. Dan Mercer: Yeah, look, to be fair to Tesla, there are legitimate reasons why the company might be reticent. For starters, it's a fledgling technology we're talking about. It seems to lack a broadly accepted industry standard. Then there's just the physical reality of it. If you're discharging and charging your EV battery a whole lot more than you would normally do, a lot more because you're using it as a quasi household system, then that has an effect on the longevity of the battery. Most batteries, including the ones typically used in EVs, degrade over time as they're used more and more. And so Tesla doesn't want to be held liable for a warranty if the battery is being cycled in a way that wasn't envisaged, that wasn't tested, that wasn't guaranteed by their own standards. There are suspicions though that maybe Tesla has ulterior motives. The company famously sells household batteries and consumers are much less likely to buy those household batteries if their car battery can do the same thing. The thing is, Sam, this argy-bargy has big implications because some people reckon the technology in question could change the energy system completely. It has a few different names, including bidirectional charging, two-way charging, reverse charging, vehicle to grid and others. Ultimately though, it boils down to a simple proposition, not only charging EVs so they can be driven around, but discharging them too. Sam Hawley: All right, well then let's now, Dan, step through how this actually works because there are three main ways of using a car's battery for power, for powering a home, for instance. So let's run through those. Dan Mercer: Yeah, indeed. Well, and apologies for this next bit because it's all quite jargony. Sam Hawley: All right, we've been warned. Go forth. Dan Mercer: The first is what's called vehicle to load or V2L. And that's simply using your car to run things like tools from a power outlet in the car. At a high level, there's so-called vehicle to home or V2H, which is where you use the battery in your EV to run your house. That's what Richard wants to do. And there's evidence some people are already doing it in Australia, for example, during blackouts. And then there's the biggest one of all, which is called vehicle to grid. As the name suggests, it involves selling electricity from your car's battery to the grid at times when it's needed. A flip side to that is not only just selling it, but you can also store electricity in the car's battery, take it from the grid when there's too much supply, which of course is a problem that we're dealing with these days with so much solar around. Vehicle to home and vehicle to grid, especially are not straightforward. And there's a mix of hardware, software and regulatory permissions that are required to turn the energy that's stored in the car battery into something that can be put into the grid and used safely. So there's a whole bunch of technical challenges involved. Sam Hawley: But if you could transfer the power from your EV to the grid, you could make money from that, right? Dan Mercer: You could. How much? There's a big question mark. Presumably there'd need to be strong financial incentives for you to wanna do it. But ultimately this is kind of about trying to entice you to provide energy from your EV to the system when the system needs it. You might reasonably wonder what possible difference a few EVs could make to something as big as the grid, right? But eventually there will be millions of EVs on our roads and collectively they'll represent an enormous amount of storage that sits idle most of the time. Being able to tap into that in an efficient way could drastically reduce our need to generate electricity from sources like coal and like gas. Sam Hawley: Okay, and there are some people that think this could be revolutionary. Dan Mercer: In theory, yes. I spoke to Ross De Rango who used to run energy and infrastructure at the Electric Vehicle Council, which is an industry body. He now works as a consultant and Ross says there's, in his words, a big golden pot at the end of the rainbow if Australia can make bidirectional charging work. Ross De Rango, EV industry consultant: So the opportunity is the earlier closure of coal and gas-fired power stations. The opportunity is lower cost electricity for all consumers in the country. The risk of absence of support for this technology is that those benefits will take many more years to materialise. Sam Hawley: All right, well, Dan, this does all sound pretty amazing actually, but as you mentioned, there are car companies like Tesla that aren't playing ball at the moment. I think a few are, but there's a few roadblocks here. Dan Mercer: I'll be fascinated to see what happens with two-way charging, Sam. Ross De Rango, the ex-EV Council guy, says governments will need to take the reins and corral automakers in particular into a position of support for this. Ditto for the poles and wires companies that control the grid. Ross De Rango, EV industry consultant: So the automakers hold one set of keys, the energy networks hold the other set of keys. In order for vehicle to grid to occur, both of those parties need to put the key in the ignition and turn it on. Dan Mercer: We spoke to Federal Climate Change and Energy Minister, Chris Bowen, for this story, and he's certainly keen to see it happen. He was very keen to stress that he would like to see car makers get on board. Chris Bowen, Energy minister: Well, I certainly encourage car manufacturers to get with the programme. Consumers will want this, and I think consumers will march with their feet. If every car in Australia was electric and people were using it to charge their house or their grid, that's equivalent to five snowy hydro schemes, for example. And it's great for consumers because, as I said, it puts consumers more in charge of their resources. The battery in your driveway will, on average, usually be about five times more powerful than the battery in your garage. Sam Hawley: So, Dan, how long do you think it will take before our cars are powering our homes? Dan Mercer: This is a classic example of an idea where there's a disconnect between the rhetoric and the reality. You know, I've been reporting on energy for a while now, and it always amazes me how often I hear people say bidirectional charging is going to solve so many of our problems, and it's a no-brainer, so it's just going to happen, wait and see. But that's a big assumption, and there are big assumptions right through energy and the transition we're going through right now. Of course, there are many seemingly great ideas that never come to fruition in energy and elsewhere because they get mugged by reality. If you listen to the likes of Ross De Rango and Chris Bowen, this is a revolution that's coming. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen. It's just a matter of when. Others aren't convinced. They're just not convinced. Apart from the vested interests of some of these car makers, it's hard to imagine electricity retailers, for example, jumping out of their skins at the idea. Why would they want to pave the way for anything that involves them selling less electricity to you? While those poles and wires companies, they move notoriously slowly. They're heavily regulated. They are heavily bureaucratic. One way or another, there is a tidal wave of new storage that's coming to Australia as battery prices fall and as we get deeper into this transition. And a lot of that is going to be in the cars we drive, for sure. If we can figure out a way of tapping into that fairly and efficiently, then, in theory, everybody wins. Just don't know if you should hold your breath waiting for it, though. Sam Hawley: Dan Mercer is the ABC's energy reporter. This episode was produced by Sydney Pead and Sam Dunn. Audio production by Cinnamon Nippard. Our supervising producer is David Coady. I'm Sam Hawley. Thanks for listening.