Tucker Carlson Asks Dave Ramsey Why Credit Cards Are a Problem If You Pay Them Off — Ramsey Says, 'That's the Great Lie... Most People Don't'
"Most people don't," Ramsey replied. "That's the great lie." He added, "Everybody talks about this theoretical discipline that they just freaking don't have."
It wasn't just a hot take—it was backed by data. "78% roll the balance over month to month," Ramsey said. "Just like 97% of the people don't pay a 30-year mortgage like a 15."
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Carlson, who invited Ramsey onto "The Tucker Carlson Show" last October, seemed genuinely surprised. But Ramsey wasn't finished. He pointed to the emotional grip credit cards have on Americans. "People have physical reactions when they cut up their credit cards. I mean they're—they're crying, they're shaking."
Ramsey, who built a financial empire around the idea of living debt-free, doesn't own a single credit card. "I don't have credit cards. I haven't, you know, in 30-something years," he said. "I have debit cards on my business and debit cards on my personal account, and I use it like most people use a credit card."
He argued debit cards do everything credit cards do—just without the risk. "If you're going to pay your credit card off every month and you're really going to do that, then a debit card will work... it's the exact same freaking thing."
But for most people, it doesn't play out that way. "The average American right now is $37,000 in credit card debt," Ramsey said. "They charge 18 to 28%... so you run that out times 300 million and you've got some money coming into good old Chase."
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When Carlson asked why credit card companies seem untouchable—never facing backlash the way banks, corporations, or politicians do—Ramsey pointed to marketing. "We're taught again with the most repetitive sophisticated marketing over the longest period of time in human history... we've been taught don't leave home without it."
He called the messaging so effective it's become something of a religion. "It's an altar that we worship at," Ramsey said. "And it's not."
He even took aim at people who claim to be making money with cards. "People with a master's degree in finance: 'I got 1% back on my Discover card.' So you're going to run 100 grand through your Discover card to get $1,000 back. On what planet does that build wealth?"
Carlson laughed but stayed focused. "So you're just saying, your argument is they're just too dangerous."
"It's not even that it's that dangerous. If you are paying it off every month, it's not going to bankrupt you," Ramsey said. But even then, he warned, the psychological impact of using plastic changes how people spend.
"When you swipe plastic, you spend 12 to 18% more than if you lay down actual cash," he said, citing an MIT study. "Because cash, when you see Benjamin looking at you, activates the pain center of the brain."With cards—or worse, Apple Pay—there's no mental friction. "You just moved your phone around like you just returned an email or a text and now you're walking out of Home Depot with another tool."
Even the way stores hand back your card tricks the brain. "When you hand someone a piece of plastic at the store, they hand you the groceries or the shirt back with the plastic," he said. "When you hand them money, they just hand you the shirt."
Ramsey and his wife still pay for groceries in cash. "Sharon still carries an envelope with cash in it in her purse for—it says groceries on it," he said.
Despite the cultural dependence on cards, Ramsey says it doesn't have to be that way. Debit cards work for car rentals and hotel bookings, and fraud protection exists for both. "You actually have to have money in your freaking account in order to spend it," he said.
To him, the risks, the habits, and the industry profits all add up to one conclusion: "There's no point."
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