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07-05-2025
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Hit and Miss with Monique Ming Laven: Astronaut Dottie Metcalf-Lindenburger
Yahoo is using AI to generate takeaways from this article. This means the info may not always match what's in the article. Reporting mistakes helps us improve the experience. Yahoo is using AI to generate takeaways from this article. This means the info may not always match what's in the article. Reporting mistakes helps us improve the experience. Yahoo is using AI to generate takeaways from this article. This means the info may not always match what's in the article. Reporting mistakes helps us improve the experience. Generate Key Takeaways Follow 'Hit and Miss with Monique Ming Laven' and find other episodes on Astronaut Dottie Metcalf-Lindenburger Dottie was in third grade when she knew she wanted to be an astronaut. No Barbies for her Part of her NASA training Dottie was one of 4 women on the ISS in May 2010. ------------------------- What did you want to be when you were a little kid? I remember a whole lot of friends dreaming of becoming big stars: actors, athletes, musicians. But aiming for the real stars … being an astronaut … seemed the most pie in the sky… literally, out of this world. Not for Dottie Metcalf-Lindenburger. She was *focused. Always. Since grade school in Colorado. Made a model of the space shuttle out of the cardboard center of a roll of paper towels. Went to Space Camp. Knew in her bones what she wanted to do. She drew up her flight path to get to NASA. But in reality, it wasn't a straight shot. There were a lot of turns -- Including one that led to a job teaching high school science in Vancouver, Washington… A student asked her an unexpected question. And it became a compass to the stars. Monique Okay. So tell me about this interesting question you got from a student that changed your trajectory. Dottie Yeah. So I created an astronomy class because I wanted students who were struggling to still get through science. And this student asked, how do you go to the bathroom in space? Because we were doing a human in space unit, and I really wanted her to know that is that's a good question. That's not just a stupid question or a silly question to make me blush or anything like, that's like, I got really good engineering question. So I went home and I looked it up on the internet. And of course, NASA had an explanation on their website of how you do it on the space shuttle and on their same website, they said that they would be hiring teachers for the class of 2004. Monique And you didn't know about it before that. Dottie No, they had just made this announcement that they would be having this position open up. And so yeah, that question changed my life, right. Monique Like about how do you go to. Dottie The bathroom phase? Yes, which is a super important question and has actually really changed the way I think about bathrooms and water and all sorts of things. Monique And actually, if you would have known the answer already, you wouldn't have known to apply. Dottie Exactly. I would have never gone to the website. THERE – NEXT TO NASA'S EXPLANATION OF HOW TO GO TO THE BATHROOM IN SPACE – WAS A CALL FOR TEACHERS TO APPLY TO A NEW CLASS OF ASTRONAUTS— A CALL DOTTIE HAD WANTED TO ANSWER SINCE SHE WAS A LITTLE GIRL IN 1983… WHILE THE FIRST CLASS OF AMERICAN WOMEN ASTRONAUTS WAS TRAINING FOR SPACE… ((nats from The Right Stuff TRAILER My pleasure to introduce to you – America's astronauts)) AND HOLLYWOOD WAS IMMORTALIZING THE FIRST U-S HUMAN SPACEFLIGHT 20 YEARS BEFORE. After the movie, The Right Stuff came out and my parents took us to watch that movie, and it really just stuck out to me. Like, I love that movie. ((MOVIE TRAILER :45 it just thank god I live in a country where the best and the finest in a man can be brought out)) Monique Okay, but all the women in that movie were the wives of astronauts. What made you think, like, no, I can be the astronaut. Dottie I registered that they were all men, but the message I was getting at home from my parents was that, hey, now there's women doing things. And I never got the message that I couldn't learn the things that astronauts were learning, even though. Yeah, you're exactly right. Every single one of those men of the Mercury Seven is it's their wives that are at home with the kind of the club and stuff. And, that really wasn't me either. So. Monique And Sally ride was your. Dottie Yeah. Monique Okay. I can do this. Dottie Yes. And I think also probably that whole first class that, hired in 1978. So Sally Ride's first, but Kathryn Sullivan does the spacewalk, and I made a paper mâché doll of myself as an astronaut in around the third or fourth grade, and it looks more like what, Kathryn Sullivan the suit is the white Eva suit. So that's what Katherine would have been wearing. So having those six women in that class is going to be a big influence on me, even though we may always focus on the first flight of an American woman. FORGET THE BARBIES. YOUNG DOTTIE WAS DRESSING HER PAPER MACHE DOLL IN A SPACE SUIT. LATER -- SHE FASHIONED A MODEL OF THE SPACE SHUTTLE FROM A CARBOARD TUBE TAKEN FROM A ROLL OF PAPER TOWELS. A LOT OF KIDS EXPRESS THEIR DREAMS THROUGH ART PROJECTS. BUT NOT A LOT OF KIDS SEE THOSE DREAMS BLOW UP – LITERALLY. MML then on January 28th, 1986, DOTTIE I'm a fifth or sixth grader. Monique So then Christa McAuliffe was selected as the first person to go up as part of the Teacher in Space program. Did you watch the challenger live? ((space shuttle challenger … of the first ever teacher astronaut)) Dottie I was trying to that day, so my teachers knew I really loved space at this time. And, they knew what a big deal it was. we've rolled the television into our classroom. And, so I had been watching off and on the, the broadcasting, and then I needed to run an errand to the library. So I was down at the library doing something on my way back. My first grade teacher who knew how much I loved space, he caught me in the hall and he said, there's been a really bad accident, and and we're we are stopping the recording. ((nats)) TV'S WERE ON IN SCHOOLS ACROSS THE COUNTRY BECAUSE OF CHRISTA MCAULIFFE. SHE WAS CHOSEN OUT OF 11-THOUSAND EDUCATORS WHO HAD APPLIED FOR THE 'NASA TEACHER IN SPACE PROGRAM'… RONALD REAGAN STARTED IT TO INSPIRE STUDENTS AND TEACHERS IN STEM. IT WORKED. MILLIONS WERE WATCHING. SO MILLIONS SAW. ((( full throttle and point of highest stress, a massive explosion. The cheering stops. The horror sinks in.)) 73 SECONDS INTO THE FLIGHT, 46-THOUSAND FEET OVER THE ATLANTIC OCEAN THE SPACE SHUTTLE CHALLENGER BROKE APART Monique Yeah. How did you feel when you. And I didn't really understand. And so later that night, I would see it on the news, and then I would talk through all of it with my parents, about what had happened and just the shock that we all had. Dottie Knew what I was? I mean, just super sad, shocked and like, we were all watching, right? I would watch the replay, I guess maybe wishing that it would not happen or, you know, that there's a different result. (( seven Americans with the highest hopes, a billion dollars of the highest technology gone in seconds. The worst disaster in the us space program ever.)) And I had just lost my grandmother to cancer the year before, and so it was I remember having this really heavy conversation with my mom about living life, doing the things that you want to do. We never know, like when our day is. And she pointed out that all of them were doing what they wanted to be doing. And so that was the message that always stuck with me, is that, yeah, there is this risk, of course, but there's risks with so many things. And and it was worth still going to space and, and pushing the boundaries and learning what we were learning about ourselves and about Earth and about the beyond. And I wanted or for me, that outweighed the risk of death. Monique And death helped you realize what your life was supposed to be. Dottie Exactly. Because I felt like in that conversation with my mom, like my grandmother had passed away at 63, which is still pretty young, you know, and her her father had passed away even earlier. And both of them from cancer. And, you know, she's like, they got to do all the things they wanted, and they would have loved to do more, and they would have loved to watch you graduate and all of these things, but they still did things that they wanted to do. And you should go do the things that you want to go do. And that message really helped me. AND SO, SHE KEPT GOING. ENTERED A WRITING CONTEST TO GO TO SPACE CAMP. SHE GOT EDGED OUT -- FINISHED SECOND. BUT THE EFFORT PROVED SOMETHING TO ANOTHER SET OF JUDGES: HER PARENTS. Dottie And I took second. Right. So I don't get a free trip to space camp. But my parents, seeing that I was willing to write essays and that I, I really did care about this so much. over spring break in April of 1990, they sent me to Space Camp in Huntsville, Alabama Dottie camp really helped me understand that there are specific steps that astronauts have to take and that astronauts can go from different directions. once we started hiring science scientists and then women as well, we started having lots of different Stem backgrounds. So while I was at camp, I was like, well, what does that look like? You know what? I don't other than my parents going to college, I don't really know. Like, what would you major in? Or do you just go to undergraduate? You know, I didn't even know terms for some of this stuff. And so they also talked to us about that. And that was really helpful to start thinking about, okay, in high school I need to be doing this okay. In college. I should maybe be studying something like this, you know. Monique NASA was always your North Star. Dottie Yes. Yeah. So the reason I become a high school teacher is. It was not the direction I was actually expecting. I had been assigned to the Peace Corps. I had applied to the Peace Corps. I was graduating in 97. I was planning to go to Kazakhstan for them, teach English for two years. And it would be about a month before I was supposed to leave for Kazakhstan, that the Peace Corps would deem it not safe, and they had to tell me that I would I was not going to be able to go. I probably could have waited, right? But. But that was your plan. It was my plan. So my. I went home to Colorado and I was volunteering at my high school with coaching and enjoying being around my former teachers. And my mom and dad, who had been teachers, were like, well, do you want to try teaching for a little bit just to see? I mean, that would be a pathway here for a while, and then you can go back to graduate school and your checklist of getting to NASA. And I thought, yeah, and I could go right away to central like I could get in the next quarter. And so that's what I did. And I became a science teacher with a history minor, with also a history endorsement. WITH A GEOLOGY DEGREE FROM WHITMAN COLLEGE– THEN HER TEACHING CERTIFICATE… SHE WOUND UP AT 'HUDSON'S BAY HIGH SCHOOL' IN VANCOUVER… WHERE SHE LOOKED INTO THAT BATHROOM QUESTION – AND DISCOVERED SHE COULD APPLY FOR THE NEW CLASS OF ASTRONAUTS. AND SHORTLY AFTER THAT -- NASA MISSION STS-107. Some troubling news here about the space shuttle Columbia as we haven't heard from it yet. The time of landing was supposed to be right at this moment. FEBRUARY 1, 2003--SPACE SHUTTLE COLUMBIA RE-ENTERED THE ATMOSPHERE OVER TEXAS AND LOUISIANA … AND DISINTEGRATED. this is very ominous talk, almost precisely the same language we heard subsequent to the challenger explosion 17 years ago this past week. SEVEN ASTRONAUTS LIVING HER DREAM – DAN RATHER these images now become part of our national history, part of our national memory BECAME A NATIONAL NIGHTMARE the flag at the white house at half staff. What remains now is for the nation to mourn, express its respect, its condolences … for the investigation to begin. Monique then 2003 Columbia happens. Dottie Right? And so the announcement had come out, and then we have that tragedy. And I still decided that, you know, I still really want to apply for this program again, because I know there have been successful shuttles since challenger -- hundreds. And I want to be a part of that. even those of us that were coming were told, you know, we may not because we don't want to fly astronauts if we don't have a safe way to return to flight. So we watched and part of our education in that class of 2004 was to watch how all NASA centers and all of the programs that NASA has out around the United States were working towards a safe return to flight of the space shuttle, and we wouldn't do it until we knew it was safe. Monique Did you really have to wrestle with that or. Dottie Not really, because I just saw it as like being behind the scenes and doing all the training and learning from these incredible people. And if I didn't fly, I knew I had gone for my dream. And I admired so much what NASA did, and I just really believed in it. So to me, it just didn't seem like that hard of a decision. Monique And you'd never have to second guess, oh, what if? Dottie Yeah, exactly. SHE GOT IN – SELECTED AS AN ASTRONAUT CANDIDATE A YEAR AFTER THE COLUMBIA DISASTER. OFF TO HOUSTON. Monique Tell me about the training. Dottie Oh, yeah. Monique That sounds really intense. Dottie It's intense training It's awesome training too. so we start out with survival both, land and water survival training not as intense as the military, but more as a way to bring our class together. So that out of the box thinking and troubleshooting. Monique Can you give me an example? Yeah. Dottie So for example, when we were in Maine, we had all of the survival equipment in our seat kit that if we eject from a T-38, we would have this with us. Okay. Well, how are you going to sleep at night? How are you going to signal for help? Are you going to be able to make a fire if. So we learned how to quickly take our parachute, that, would have come out with our ejection and make that a really good tent. And so we got better at making tents because at first we didn't big and wonderful looking, and we froze at night. So you learned to bring that body heat, you know, bring the tent shape down so your body heat is trapped with the two other people that you're sharing it with, We learned how to quickly start fires from bark and using our mirrors and our little, there's usually like some sort of magnifying glass or something to in your seat kit. Yeah. And then when we did water Survival, we learned how to quickly get out of our chutes, because your chute could now pull you down as an anchor in the water and drown you You're learning about your equipment, you're learning about yourself, and you're working with a team. It's pretty fun but hard. Monique Yeah. Imagine. And you're finding that things like your parachute can either literally save you or sink you to. Dottie Exactly. Monique You're clearly a driven person. I'm guessing you have a healthy streak of perfectionism in you. Dottie Probably. Yep. You could ask my family members and they would say yes. Monique So, what kind of adjustment did you need to make to be able to free yourself up, to actually confess your ignorance by asking questions, and also to make mistakes and learn from them? Dottie I had to like, realize, okay, you have to be vulnerable in learning and also others learn from you I need to ask the questions I need to know and it will probably benefit someone else listening too. I really appreciated, a marine telling me if we have a weakness, probably someone else has that weakness too just get it, get through it, get over it. And that hearing that from someone who was already in a full up astronaut, who is an experienced marine and who was willing to share that, that was super helpful for me. Monique What was it like to be among other people like that, where you're competing against each other, but you're also each other's support network? try to, like, focus less on that and focus more on getting to all the training that you need, because you really do have to pass all that training. And it's written tests, it's performance tests and it's group performance tests. You have to perform and you're going to make mistakes, but like your team is counting on you too. So training that way and working and training together that really you like that makes you stop being so competitive, just being competitive as a group and helping each other across. To me, that's what really made us like a special class together and like, you're like your brothers and sisters, right? Like you really care about these people for the rest of your life because they helped you accomplish your dream. AFTER YEARS IN NASA CLASSROOM AND SIMULATORS … BUILDING PHYSICAL AND SURVIVAL SKILLS, AND COMPLETING DEVELOPING LEADERSHIP, LANGUAGE, AND MISSION TRAINING … THE DREAM CAME TRUE. SHE WAS CHOSEN FOR STS-131 … TO REPLACE AND RETRIEVE PARTS OF THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION. LAUNCH SCHEDULED FOR APRIL 5, 2010 Monique what do you remember from that day? Dottie there's this part of you that's like, this is the day, right? This is potentially the day that we're going to launch. And also, I had supported so many flights before this and that I also had watched scrub after scrub. And so also part of you is like and it might not be the day. So you know how you balance this like anticipation and excitement with also like a little bit of reality of like the weather hadn't been always great in the morning. We were getting this morning fog so they can't launch us if it's too foggy. So anyway, we get up, we have our breakfast as a team. And so now you start doing the tradition stuff and it's like, this is cool. Like we're part of this tradition that's been going on since the the 50s essentially. And this is so cool. I got suited up. I do remember that. And then we walk out to the van and then then it's starting to be real. Yeah. Get in the van, drive out to the launch site, and the vehicle is as gorgeous as we're approaching it. It's like, all lit up. THE MOMENT SHE HAD BEEN DREAMING OF SINCE A KID— THERE IT WAS, THE REAL THING: NOT MADE OUT OF PAPER TOWEL ROLLS THIS TIME. And, I was flying on discovery, so this is like, oh, this is the vehicle I love. You know, I made the model and now I'm so excited to fly on this. And then we get up to the 195th level. And that's how we get loaded in. And I'm the last person to get loaded because I'm mission specialist, two. So I'm the last person on the flight deck. And I just took a moment to just, like, look around and look back at where I knew my parents, my husband, my teachers, like all these people that have come to see me and to just really think, like, I'm super thankful that this wouldn't all happen and all these people hadn't helped me. And, so I just remember that moment of just like, gratitude and thankfulness. And then I got loaded. And then for like the next two hours, you're lying on your back and it's pretty uncomfortable. You try to. I mean, some people say they can take a nap. I could not take a nap. It was like two. It was. Monique Uncomfortable. Dottie they're like, rub spots, and so they're digging into your back a little bit as you're laying there on your back, with gravity. And that suit is around 60 to 80 pounds. It kind of depends on the size. So you know, you're feeling it. And then about 20 minutes before the vehicle will launch, then we start doing the real checks of the checklist, like the checklist that starts to matter inside the cockpit. And that's when it starts really like, okay, we're going to go. We haven't been given the go yet because they still have to wait till the window. But we are getting ready to go. And and then it's pretty surreal. From there it just becomes like this is like the simulator, only it's the real day. So, you know, make sure everything is going right. Monique you know, we only see it from blast off from the outside. Like what is are you we are just holding on or you. Dottie Know, we're in a seat. And we had a five point harness on and, we're looking up and you can look out the windows. You're not seeing anything really, because, it's it's just looking out into darkness. So the shuttle had 1500 circuit breakers and switches, and a lot of them are in that front cockpit part. So we're looking at all of this. We're following along on the displays. So it's it's like starting to get real, like, the simulator would get us tilted back, but it couldn't put us all the way on our back. Okay. And, and the simulator we would do suited sims. So we had felt that before. But this is the real day, right? This is a real day. You know, it. Monique were you at all torn between, like, taking in what? Wow. I'm doing this versus focusing in on this is what I need to do in this very moment. Dottie Yeah, I really focused once that checklist started, like, I just really wanted to focus I don't want us to miss anything. And I want to make sure that, like, I'm just really paying attention. This is my job. But that being said, as soon as the main engines light and you feel that little twang and then the solids light, and there's just like this incredible thrust on your back. And I've never, thankfully, been in a rear. Ended in an accident, but I've heard other astronauts that have equate it to like a rear ending or like a football team tackling. Monique But from behind. Yeah. Dottie And I haven't had that happen either. But, it was an intense amount of energy and then what gave us permission to just kind of laugh and acknowledge this is that our commander and pilot, they both start to kind of giggle a little bit, and then they are like, that's really something. I mean, if you listen to the audio lives, it's like one of them is like, that's really something. That's a lot of energy there. And then I. Monique Just started laughing and I was like, this is crazy. Like, it really is crazy energy. Dottie And then we just focused right back. Like it was just like we needed to, like, have that little, like, relief acknowledging. Monique Yeah. Dottie That this is a lot of energy and we're on a controlled explosion and we acknowledge it. And then we got back right back to like boom, boom, boom, you know. Monique So how long are you being tackled by the football team? Dottie That part is really with just in like the first few seconds, like probably even less than a second, but it feels like it's going on. Then you're shaking. And I equate it to like being on a wooden roller coaster for like two minutes and 20s and then the solids come off and then that kind of shaking vibration goes away, and then it's really smooth. and then we start to pull, three GS towards the last minute of it and it starts to get really uncomfortable because you're pulling it. We've pulled more than three GS, but you're pulling it through your chest. It feels like someone's sitting on you. And right when you're like, okay, this is getting uncomfortable. The main engines cut off and then the, the, external tank is going to come off and we're in space. We're like floating up. FLOATING AND WORKING. THEIR 15-DAY MISSION... DELIVERING 8 TONS OF EQUIPMENT AND CARGO.. THAT TAKES 100 COMBINED HOURS TO MOVE. AND CONDUCTING THREE SPACE WALKS… REPLACING PARTS OF THE I-S-S AMMONIA TANKS. Monique So yeah, that was the work. Tell me about the play. Dottie Oh my gosh. The play is so much fun. So I love looking out the window at geologists. Like, could you think of a better place to be and be like textbook, textbook that is like textbook continents colliding or dividing? And I still have not been to many places on Earth. I mean, I've had a chance to travel, but like, I still haven't gotten to Australia or South America. And so just like looking at these beautiful places from above is amazing. And the person that is in me, that's the amateur astronomer looking out into the Milky Way and just truly seeing the color of stars and so many stars, because we're above the atmosphere, above light pollution, above, the atmosphere that makes them twinkle and just like, you know, filters out some light. It was just mind boggling and beautiful. The stunningly beautiful, so looking at earth and looking out. And then my daughter was three when I was in space and I just, you know, I think all of us have this kid in us. We have to, like, float down the space station. We have to tumble and flip around, you know, and she loves getting those videos. And we got one, video conference, and she just thought that was like, like, how are you doing that, mom? Like, can I do that? Monique Now, when any one of us sees a globe, we tend to look for things that we recognize. What was it. Dottie Like? What are you. Monique Doing? Yeah. What were you looking for? What did you recognize? Dottie And what helped me is the the volcanoes, specifically Crater Lake. Like, as a geologist from the northwest and as a teacher who had been there, you know. Oh, I know all those volcanoes. And as soon as I saw Crater Lake, I'm like, oh, I can find where I taught, you know, and I can find Portland and Vancouver and, all these places. And then what was hard for me is growing up in Colorado, there are a lot of places that have front range. Wyoming has front range, New Mexico has front range. And so it took an airport finding the Denver International Airport. With its distinct, like, swishy, like white top. That helped me be able to pick it out. Monique You can see that from. Dottie We can see that from space. I know people always ask, but we can see structures from space. So. Yes. WHAT SHE COULD'T SEE YET WAS HER PLACE IN HISTORY-- MADE IN THE COMPANY OF 12 OTHER ASTRONAUTS, INCLUDING STEPHANIE WILSON, NAOKO YAMAZAKI, AND TRACY CALDWELL DYSON. HISTORY THAT ALMOST DIDN'T HAPPEN. Monique When you were at the International Space Station, I believe there are four women. And that's still the record. That's that's the. Dottie Record? That is correct. Yes. Monique What was that like? Did that mean something to you in the moment? Dottie It it meant something more. When I returned in the moment, I was just excited to be there. Dottie [01:58:02] But all of us were just excited. I loved Stephanie, and so I was so excited to fly with them and then to meet Tracy in space. It was like the icing on the cake. It was not supposed to happen that way. Our our flight was supposed to be earlier in like January, February timeframe. And she was coming up in March. And then our flight got postponed to April. And she's there and we get a float in and see her later when I came home and I really thought about like, okay, you were a little girl, and American women hadn't even flown in space until you were a third grader. Now we're seeing women in space, and there's more of them. Like, this is a big deal. Yeah. And yet, eventually, it's also hopefully not going. Monique To be a big fight. Dottie And I'm excited for us to return to the moon and return to the moon and have women and people of color walk on its surface, and then it will not be as big of a deal anymore, because then we're going to be working on the moon, and it's going to be all of us. Right? So there's that moment when, yeah, it's a big deal, and then maybe someday it will not be as big of a deal. And that's okay. Yeah. Monique You hope it won't be as big of a deal for your daughter? Yeah. Dottie Right, exactly. HOPEFULLY … ONE SMALL STEP FOR WOMAN, ONE GIANT LEAP FOR HUMANKIND. SHE IS PART OF THE BIGGER PURSUIT TO GET ANSWERS TO LIFE'S BIGGEST QUESTIONS. Monique So I've got to ask you, what was it like to go to bathroom in space? Dottie Yeah, well, I am really excited about the space station toilet, and I got to use it to, the shuttle toilet. I mean, both of them use, funnel connected to a hose, and suction pulls the urine, and, the shuttle goes into a tank. On the space station, we reuse that liquid. So today's coffee is tomorrow's water economy? No. Yeah, yeah, we use about, 90% reuse of, sweat and urine on the space station, and you kind of have to. I mean, it's such an expense. Water is such an expensive resource, and we all need it, so I kind of like that. I love to share that with students The solid is thankfully just like, on the shuttle, we have a little trap door, and you do your business in there, and the door shuts and there's a little vent to space, and it literally freeze dries your poop. It's so weird. You seal it up, it goes into one of the vehicles that burns up, and literally your poop becomes space dust. So that's how you go about space. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. CIRCLE COMPLETE. DREAM FULFILLED. BUT SINCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BOMBS BURSTING IN AIR-- TURNING TO ANOTHER CHALLENGE DOTTIE WOULD NOT SHY FROM. Monique Shifting again. Speaking of, July 2009 Astros versus Cardinals. Dottie Oh my goodness. I can't believe you found that. JULY 22, 2009, AT MINUTEMMAID PARK THE HOUSTON ASTROS COMMEMORATE THE 40TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE APOLLO 11 MOON LANDING. AND ASK DOTTIE TO SING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM. Monique the national anthem is tough. Dottie The national anthem is the hardest song I've ever sang. And I never wanted to go. Monique Oh, why. Dottie I give about something that can give you anxiety. Because I love singing. But singing all by yourself and singing acapella. So you have to make sure to hit the right, jump. And I am a mezzo soprano, not a soprano, so I know that I can't do the fun little trills that people are expecting. Yeah. So I was like, I got to do this. I got to do this. And I can't forget the words. I thought that was the other piece I was so nervous about. And then I guess, again, it goes back to like, I think maybe a month or two before I sing it. A young person had forgot the words, and one of the players had come over and started singing and I thought, okay, you know what? You're making too much out of this. But I did have the words in my hands washed up on paper, just in case. Like, like that's really going to do anything for me, but it just made me feel better. It's like my little security blanket. So yes, I sang the national anthem. Monique How did it go? Dottie And then I think it went fine. People said it sounded good. People who know how hard it is to sing it were like, this is fine. And I my voice in a crack. I made it through all the words. It's where the important thing and to give it honor to. Because, because I wanted to, like my grandparents had been in the military. So I was also trying to give that honor ((NATS)) SHE HAS HONORED THE COUNTRY WITH HER SERVICE IN THE CLASSROOM … IN SPACE … AND UNDERWATER AS AN AQUANAUT. SHE RETIRED FROM NASA WHEN SHE WAS BARELY OVER 40. NOW SHE'S A MUSEUM OF FLIGHT TRUSTEE—AND STEM ADVOCATE. HER FLIGHT PATH WAS NOT AS SHE DREW IT UP. BETTER. Monique How would your, your, your message, your experience be different if you hadn't been chosen? Dottie [02:07:12] I when I was down there for the interview, I felt once again like I've put it on the line and that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to try for my big dream. I would hope that I would also have been like that that that persisted. I'm I'm lucky I get it the very first time I try for it. And they had this unique position of having teachers as astronauts, but I recognize that there were a lot of astronauts who applied multiple times, and it didn't come the first time. And I admire their persistence and their grit. I was around these 35 people, some teachers, some pilots, doctors, engineers, scientists. They're all at the top of their game. They're all amazing. Every one of them would be a great astronaut. Somehow I got selected and some of them didn't. And like I but I just knew after that week I was like, I tried for it. And that week was amazing. Monique So it wasn't whether you hit or miss, it's that you actually swing. Dottie Yes! ------------------ Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Was it a Hit or Miss? I would love to hear what you think. You can find me, Monique Ming Laven on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. All the links are on Photography and editing – by Jeff Ritter. Art Direction from Ryan Barber – Invaluable feedback from Julie Berg, Kyla Grace, and James Sido. I hope you'll continue the ride with me. Please follow this podcast for all the episodes, dropping on Wednesdays.
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23-04-2025
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Hit and Miss with Monique Ming Laven: Daniel Lyon, Fire Survivor
Follow 'Hit and Miss with Monique Ming Laven' and find other episodes on ---------------- ---------------- what I do remember is the fire just exploding August 19, 2015, the start of the Twisp River Fire in Okanagon County. Winds shift so quickly – in just 15 minutes, it doubles in size. 25-year old firefighter Daniel Lyon and three others, trapped – blinded by smoke. Their engine runs off the road. Daniel must run through the fire. and are there flames all around you at this point? I mean just fully engulfed in flames for probably 50 percent of the run getting out of there He got out. Most of him. As some of them said, my skin was dripping off me The burns were torturous. Surviving was just the start. I do remember having a conversation with god, saying, if I don't wake up tomorrow, I'll be fine with that. But God had other plans. Including the mistake that saved his life. it just changed everything going forward in that moment. SUCCESS IS MESSY. AND THIS IS WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE.I'M MONIQUE MING LAVEN, AND THIS IS A PODCAST ABOUT REALLY SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE AND THEIR MISTAKES – SETBACKS – SCREWUPS— BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT MAKES YOU SMARTER AND STRONGER. YOU HAVE TO KEEP TAKING YOUR BEST SHOT AGAIN AND AGAIN, AND IT IS GOING TO BE … 'HIT AND MISS'. ----------------------- BEING A BROADCAST JOURNALIST MEANS REPORTING ON DEVASTATING TRAGEDIES DAILY – OFTEN HOURLY—AND SADLY, SOMETIMES, BY THE MINUTE. YOU STRIKE A PRECARIOUS BALANCE TO KEEP YOUR HUMANITY AFLOAT. SOMETIMES EMPATHY IS YOUR LIFESAVER – OTHER TIMES THE WEIGHT OF IT THREATENS TO DRAG YOU UNDER. THEN YOU HAVE A TRAGEDY – AND SUCCESS STORY – LIKE DANIEL LYON. HIS STORY IS SO FILLED WITH STRUGGLE AND PAIN, THAT THE TRIUMPH IS BAFFLING. SO IS HIS JOY. [BRING MUSIC UP QUICKLY TO BREAK UP] THE TWISP RIVER FIRE WAS ONE OF FIVE FIRES CAUSED BY LIGHTNING STRIKES IN AUGUST 2015. OVER THE NEXT MONTH, FLAMES WOULD ROAR THROUGH 520-THOUSAND ACRES. MORE THAN 13-HUNDRED-50 FIREFIGHTERS WERE DEPLOYED. DANIEL WAS ONE OF THE EARLIEST … IN ENGINE NO. 642, ALONG WITH THREE OTHER MEN. ONLY DANIEL LIVED TO TELL WHAT HAPPENED. BUT THERE WAS A WAIT. FOR QUITE A LONG TIME, ALL WE SAW WERE HIS PARENTS: UNCERTAIN BUT UNWAVERING, BY HIS SIDE IN THE HARBORVIEW MEDICAL CENTER BURN UNIT EVERY DAY. WAITING FOR HIM TO COME OUT OF A COMA. Monique did you wake up out of your coma with memory of what happened? Daniel Oh, yeah. Yeah// I remember everything up and to the point that I was in the ambulance and they, basically put me up, put me out. And then that's that's where it all went black. And then I woke up about, about exactly a month later. Monique Can we go there? About what? You remember? Daniel Oh, yeah. Okay. What I do remember is, is the fire just, exploding and us trying to get out of there as quickly as possible. Our engine ended up crashing, and, I had to take off on foot from there. And that's how I got burned so badly. So I ran through, quite a bit of the fire to get back to, our safety zone. Monique Wow. So your engine crashed, and that was, in the fire, is that correct? Daniel That's correct. Yeah. Monique How far did you have to run? Daniel I remember having to crawl. I mean, literally up of probably a 45 degree embankment. That's why my fingers got, my my hands got so much in bad shape that they amputate those fingers because I was literally clawing up the this hillside that there was, you know, on fire.// FIRE BURNED HIS FINGERS. SMOKE BLINDED HIS EYES. HE GOT TO THE TOP OF THE EMBANKMENT, BUT NOT TO THE END OF THE FLAMES. HE HAD TO RUN – HOW FAR, HE'S NOT CERTAIN. JUST THAT THERE WERE SWITCHBACKS. Monique And are there flames all around you at this point? Daniel Yes. So. So it was, I mean, just fully engulfed in flames in for probably 50% of the run getting out of there. And then finally I got to a point where I just broke out of the flame. There was wasn't smoke. There wasn't a lot of smoke. There wasn't the flame. It was just like a wall. And, I looked back, hoping those guys were right on my heels behind me, but they weren't. And then I got down to the bottom of the hillside, crossed the pavement to the other side of the road. And look back, you know, just the everything was on fire. So once I broke out of that fire, I was able to luckily, immediately get some medical help. HE COULDN'T FIND THE OTHER MEN IN HIS ENGINE- NO ONE WOULD EVER SEE THEM AGAIN. BUT OTHER CREWS RUSHED TO HIM. THEY GAVE HIM BOTH HELP- AND AN OMINOUS WARNING. I remember there was a fire engine that was parked close by, and I went to go run up to the mirror to see what my face looked like. And one of the other firefighters immediately grabbed my arm, said, you can't do that. Don't do that right now. And that's when it hit me that this is really bad. HE DID LOOK DOWN AT HIS HANDS. if I remember correctly, they were like white. They were like bleached white. They weren't like a black. And like, you'd think of somebody just running through a fire. But when he said, you can't look at your face, that really freaked me out. And then I remember it was about 97 degrees that day. It really hot out, and I just ran through fire, and I started getting really cold, and I knew shock was starting to set in. So things started going through my head of. I can't say that that death crossed my mind. But the fear, definitely a fear of, what's my life going to be here in the next few days? Monique Did you think you were going to make it? Daniel I. Oh, I knew it was bad. Because, as some of them said, my skin was, like, dripping off of me. At this point, I a lot of people ask, well, how do you get burned so bad when you're wearing all that fire gear? But what a lot of people don't realize is when you're a wildland firefighter, you're wearing a fairly thin layer of Nomex, I was put on that ambulance, and, I was probably in that ambulance for five, ten minutes and just in brutal agony, just begging for them to give me any kind of painkiller they could. And they were. And I remember asking to pray for me, and they did their thing. There's three of them in that medic unit. And then, and then they said this hopefully help. And then it all kind of went to sleep from there. Monique So you're an incredible pain in the ambulance, and you do eventually, lose consciousness. And then the next time that you regained consciousness. Was that a month later? Daniel it was more like coming slowly over the next week or two, slowly coming back to, life. And then I'd say two weeks later is when I really started comprehending what was going on, the situation that I was in, hearing about what happened. ALL THREE MEN IN HIS FIRE ENGINE HAD DIED … Richard Wheeler, Tom Zbyszewski, and Andrew Zajac. AND THE FLAMES CONTINUED ADVANCING THE ENTIRE TIME DANIEL WAS IN A COMA. 520-THOUSAND ACRES BURNED. ABOUT 200 HOMES LOST. DANIEL LEARNED THIS AS HE WAS FILLED WITH PAIN, COVERED IN BANDAGES. So just a huge amount to grasp. And then. And then you look down there, I look down my own body, and, I couldn't see most of it, or really any of it, because I was essentially a mummy. At this point, I'm just completely bandaged up, but you're just wondering what the heck is under those bandages? And then you get to a point where, they do one of your first dressing changes where you realize you're actually awake and have to realize what's going on, and just you kind of feel like your world just got destroyed, right? Monique You're talking about the sight of it. But you must have you must have been in incredible pain, too. Daniel Yeah, I do remember being in extreme amount of pain. It's it's interesting because, you know, the, the, the drugs that they're able to give you, thankfully, are able to help cut the pain, but they don't eliminate it, that's for sure. they would load you up and on as much painkillers as they could. high octane painkillers. And and it helped but it just it took the edge off. That's it. With the best way I can describe is you're to have having a migraine and you take a single Tylenol. And it helps but definitely doesn't eliminate it. Monique Wow. Did they like that first firefighter that you came across when you ran for your life? Did the people in the hospital tell you, wait before you look. Daniel I do remember just that the first time seeing. I think the first thing that I saw was my hands, if I remember correctly, because my, my tips or the or I guess the lack of my fingertips, the just the, the first part of the amputation was sticking out of the guards. And that was the first part that I had seen. And that was that was pretty scary. I mean, that's horrific. And so you can only imagine, I'm thinking in that moment what the rest of my body must look like. ///11618 Are they gonna have to amputate more things down the road? Is this as bad as it's going to get? It's going to get worse. It just it. Yeah. A whirlwind of thoughts are going through your mind. Monique So you start by just seeing your fingertip. When did you look at your. You were burned over 70% of your body. Is that correct? Daniel Yeah. Just about 60, 65 to 70% of my body is burned up. Yep. Monique How did you approach looking at yourself? How did you decide when you were going to do it? Daniel my everything was a mess. Being that 70% or 65 to 70% of your body is one giant open wound at this point. They'll they'll graft something on you and then, it, you know, things start to turn colors you've never seen before. And it's just it's probably the most graphic injury that you could deal with, but. Yeah, I so I was just forced to see my arms and my legs when they would take the bandages off. And, and I feel like back then it just, it was what it was. But the first time I saw my face in the mirror, that's when I broke down. Because my, my face got so, so badly burned. And seeing it, completely unwrapped and just the way it the way it was so raw in that moment, I broke down because I thought, I'll never I'll never get married. I'll never have any chance of a love life. I remember, and, that was the absolute hardest part of that right there was the thought of my future being just gone. 'WHO COULD LOVE THIS FACE?' HE THOUGHT. HE WAS JUST 25 YEARS OLD. MEANWHILE, HIS FAMILY HAD RELEASED A PICTURE OF HIM TO THE MEDIA, TAKEN SHORTLY AFTER HE TRAINED TO BECOME A WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER. HE HAS A HANDSOME, EXPRESSIVE FACE … WEARING A METHOW VALLEY FIRE HAT, AN UNTESTED YELLOW NOMEX SHIRT… HIS FULLY INTACT FINGER POINTING TO SMOKE [FROM A FIRE IN THE MOUNTAINS, FAR AWAY.] HE'S SMILING, EXCITED TO MEET HIS NEW CALLING. HE'D NEVER LOOK LIKE THAT AGAIN. MISERY LOVES COMPANY. HE HAD A LOT OF IT IN THE BURN UNIT. Monique I mean, surviving the original incredible Wounds was just the beginning of it. Yes. How did you approach recovery? How did you get from, you know, getting new dressings every day? How did you deal with that on a day to day basis? Daniel the doctors always wanted you to walk each night and each day whenever you could. They they really- at a certain point during your recovery. They want you to start walking. So I would just walk the unit floor. And by doing that you're passing you're doing laps up there and you meet, other burn survivors. And it's an interesting thing. Walking by somebody who's, equally as bandaged up as you are or maybe slightly less or even slightly more, and you both kind of stop and you say, what the heck happened to you? And obviously we're here for the same reason. We both we both got burned up, but it's probably for a totally different reason. And, getting to meet the people that I did that gave me hope and hope. They gave them hope. And, we all helped each other. And that is really, what got me through a lot of that. Just just knowing that you weren't alone. 1 21 33 Monique You are clearly a positive person and a strong person. Clearly. I mean, I hope never to understand fully the depths of your strength and perseverance. But along the way, did you make any mistakes about, how to recuperate, how to get through this? Daniel it was so, so, so painful to walk, but it was crucial. I didn't see it at the time, but the doctors ensured that it was crucial that I walked on my own. And if you're going to fight the scarring, that's one way to do is get moving. And I remember I'd walk past several rooms that had, electric mobility, like wheelchairs out in front of their rooms. I mean, it seemed like the hall was five miles long, is probably 100ft long, and it would take me forever to get down there, but probably after a week or two of walking past those rooms with the wheelchairs in front of them, I remember I snapped at the nurse and I really got upset with her. I said, it is absolute garbage that all these folks get to use a wheelchair and I don't? I said, you're making me walk. I said, it hurts like heck. I said, I want a wheelchair if if I'm going to be doing this anymore. And I remember her looking at me and said, Danny, you got to realize those people only have those wheelchairs in front of the rooms because there's a good chance that they're never going to walk again. She says as much as it hurts right now, she says their injuries are a lot different than yours. And she says as much as it might hurt right now, you're still able to walk, and it might be slow and it might be painful, but you're still doing it with your own two legs. And she said, those folks with those chairs might not get that chance again. And that man, I felt so bad in that moment because the mistake I made was making an assumption, essentially. And. And telling these nurses who are. You have dedicated their life to helping people like me. And I'm snapping at them because, you know, part of it was just because of the pain that I'm in, you know? Monique Sure. Daniel it is always a regret that I have. But it was probably the biggest learning lesson in that moment. And it was very early on. And I can pretty much truly say that from that point on, I never made another complaint. Monique Really? Daniel Yeah. Monique You would have been allowed, and I'm sure they even forgave you in the moment for any temper that you lost. Daniel That was obviously a huge mistake. And in that moment I feel bad for it. But the perspective that it gave me and the lesson that it taught me it, that became a mistake, that I think I've put a positive spin on it, and it really helped me. It, it just it changed everything going forward in that moment. Daniel I hope, I hope that to this day that that nurse forgives me. Yeah. THAT HALL MAY HAVE FELT FIVE MILES LONG. BUT THE JOURNEY WAS JUST GETTING STARTED. HE WAS IN THE HOSPITAL FOR THREE MONTHS. EXCRUCIATING REHAB … SKIN GRAFTS … SURGERY AFTER SURGERY THAT CONTINUED LONG AFTER RELEASE... MORE THAN 100 OF THEM. IT WAS GRINDING. PUSHING THE LIMITS OF WHAT ANYONE COULD SURVIVE PHYSICALLY, MENTALLY, EMOTIONALLY. Monique Did you experience, any anger? Daniel Oh, yeah. I was probably my only emotion I had. I cried all the tears that I could have. There, it felt like there was nothing more to cry. And I feel like anger is. It was it was a it was the wrong way for me to cope with it. But it was. It simply was is what it is. Monique Did you not want to talk about it for a while? Daniel I'd be coming almost directly out of, wound care and where I'm just in excruciating pain and relieving therapy at Harborview, and I'd have to go to a meeting room in the hospital and meet with some investigator that I've never met before in my life, and tell him every nitty gritty detail in that, it was so fresh and so dark in that time. He just made me clam up and not want to talk at all. Monique And so for a while, you just said, I'm done with this. Daniel Yes, absolutely. Monique Oh, when you said the darkest part, what was the darkest part? Daniel Darkest part was. Leaving the hospital. Believe it or not, I remember early on I want to get out of the hospital as as bad as I could, but then by. By that second month, you start getting used to it. Even though it's almost like, what I imagine, like being in a prison, you're just trapped in this place and you can't go outside. But then I finally got released and got to go home, and, and home for me was then going to be Montana, which was where my parents lived. And I had to move back in with them. AND THAT BECAME A DIFFERENT KIND OF PRISON. HE IS THE FIRST TO CREDIT HIS PARENTS – THEIR INCREDIBLE LOVE AND DEVOTION -- WITH GETTING HIM THROUGH. BUT HE WAS 25. HE WAS NATURALLY ADVENTUROUS, SELF-RELIANT. HE NEVER INTENDED TO BE LIVING WITH THEM AGAIN, DEPENDENT. AND EVERY NIGHT, HE'D HAVE TO BECOME A MUMMY AGAIN. NOT WRAPPED IN GAUZE THIS TIME, BUT ENCASED IN HARD PLASTIC… ON HIS ARMS, HIS FACE, HIS KNEES… SPLINTS, TO PREVENT HIS TISSUE FROM HARDENING. And so you can't move. You're completely stiff. And so you had to sleep with those on throughout the night. And I remember laying on my back one night and, just wearing those splints, staring up at the ceiling at my parents house, thinking, this is this is absolute hell. This is never how I pictured my life. Yeah. This is not what I want for my life. And I, I can honestly say I've never, ever, contemplated, suicide. But in that moment, I do remember having a conversation with God saying, if if I don't wake up tomorrow, I'll be fine with that. I won't take my own life. But if if powers of above don't have me waking up tomorrow, I will be fine with that. Monique Because I'm kind of asking him if he would. Daniel Sure. Yep. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So that was that was definitely the lowest, darkest point in my life. Yeah, yeah. BUT MAYBE IT WAS GOD THAT REMINDED HIM OF THOSE MOTORIZED WHEELCHAIRS IN THE BURN UNIT. THE ONES DANIEL SO BADLY WANTED TO USE- BUT WAS LUCKY NOT TO NEED. HE ALREADY KNEW MISERY LOVES COMPANY. BUT HE SOON LEARNED HEALING DOES TOO. the only thing that got rid of the anger was finally starting to do, things like motivational speaking and speaking to other burn survivors and firefighters and in law enforcement officers about my experiences. I know a lot of guys and gals. They keep it cooped up inside and for a long while I did. And that's what I think led to a lot of anger. when I could start having the opportunity to to speak to other burns survivors of how to get through this, that's where I was really starting it. It kind of snowballed and started getting better quicker. QUICK IS A RELATIVE TERM. Daniel my, my goals never went away. I always had the same goals before the fire as I did after the fire. And but the the timeline for them drastically changed. I usually have a surgery once every three months, and, to either fix my hands or do another graft or, some plastic surgery, and you'd go in for a surgery. And what they did the surgery, becomes infected, and it has to be redone or, or they do the surgery, and it scars so bad that, you know, I have to have lasering done to it. And so a lot of times it it was like two steps forward and then two steps back, you felt like you're right back to where you were. Monique You said that your goals are the same now as they were before the fire Daniel for example, I always want to climb Mount Rainier. All my life growing up in Puyallup., I always saw it out my window. Yeah. And so, I made sure that was one of the first goals I accomplished. Monique That's amazing. Daniel Ended up summitting Rainier. And so I got checked off the list. And then. But from before I ever started firefighting, you know, I wanted to be a police officer. Went back through the academy and went back to being a police officer for a while. Daniel getting back to running, getting back to enjoying all the things that I used to do kayaking and, and, like, what I'm doing now, traveling. There's a point. I couldn' even drive a car. And now, now we I drive our RV all over the country. So it's a little things like that where, those goals never changed. They just took a lot longer to to get to the point where I achieved them. Monique And you were talking earlier about your belief in your fear that you would never be able to fall in love and get married. And look at you now. Daniel Yeah. I'm pretty, pretty excited about it. MEGAN IS HER NAME. HE THOUGHT NO ONE WOULD EVER LOVE HIM. SHE PROVED HIM WRONG THEY HAD BEEN ON A COUPLE DATES BEFORE THE FIRE. BUT THEY REALLY FELL IN LOVE DURING HIS RECOVERY. AND THEY WERE MARRIED THIS SUMMER. Monique Fantastic. Yeah. Can you tell me your engagement story? Daniel So. Well, I couldn't make it a easy engagement for her. Of course, I had to drag her to the top of mountain and. And propose at the highest peak in Hells Canyon. So for many of our our summers, we spent in Hells Canyon on the Oregon Idaho border. And it was it was a place we always loved and just a great place to relax. so literally we got in a raft, we rode across, Brownlee Reservoir and spent probably, what, four, 4 or 5 hours hiking and finally got to the top of that peak and, and proposed up top. And it was one of the coolest days of my life. QUITE A PEAK. BUT THERE ARE STILL VALLEYS. THERE ALWAYS WILL BE. IT SHIFTS WITH THE AMOUNT OF ACTIVITY HE DOES. HIS INJURIES MEAN MORE MUSCLE SORENESS. ARTHRITIS WILL BECOME A FACTOR. AND THE EXERCISE HE LOVES KEEPS HIS SKIN MORE ELASTIC.. BUT IT ALSO CAUSES STRETCHING THAT HURTS. TWO SIDES TO THE COIN, AND EACH DAY IS A NEW FLIP. BUT HE'S AT PEACE WITH CHANCE. Monique Talking about being a risk taker. You were your whole life before that. Did you ever feel like you took it too far? Daniel I don't know. I don't think so. Because all, all life involves risk. And obviously some things take a lot more risk than others. jobs like the military police, fire, those are all jobs that we need or what keeps the world running? It keeps the world safe and and helping other people. There's no reason that that somebody else should have to do that job and take on that risk in out myself. And so, you know, in a heartbeat, I'd. I'd do it all over again. Monique Everything that you say makes sense, and it's brave. Did it take you something to get to that point? Daniel I'm just blown away by the beauty of of the things I get to see now. And, and people that all enjoy it with it, sometimes they'll be like, well, yeah, that's beautiful, that's neat. And I'm just like blown away. And that is because of the expanded perspective that I've had now. realizing how short life is and really understanding how I went to live it out and how to appreciate every moment. And I hopefully have, you know, decades left in front of me to go. But at 25, I get to learn that perspective that most people don't learn till it's too late. I am so grateful for that. And I get to live a life where I'm truly, truly, like, high on life every single day. AFTER DANIEL ESCAPED THE FLAMES NINE YEARS AGO, ANOTHER FIREFIGHTER BLOCKED HIM FROM A MIRROR… MERCIFULLY DELAYING HIS TRUTH. BUT NOW, DANIEL CAN LOOK IT IN THE FACE. AND IT'S BEAUTIFUL. Monique When you look at yourself in the mirror. Now, what do you see? Daniel I see a person that that has a heck of a lot of stories to tell and has really stories written all over them. People have asked me a lot of times, would you ever get tattoos? And I'd say, yeah, maybe my arms are like are covered in tattoos. These are tattoos that were, you know, given to me by just life. And so, when I look in the mirror, I think of somebody that has a lot of stories to share and, and and and making it my goal to help share some of those stories because I, I do think, or at least I hope, that some of my outlooks will help somebody else. Daniel I appreciate you give me a platform to share the story and ask some great questions and and enjoy talking with you. Monique Believe me, the joy was all mine. Thank you so much.
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02-04-2025
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Pat Chun, UW Athletics Director
Follow 'Hit and Miss with Monique Ming Laven' and find other episodes on ---------------- Pat Chun transcript: Growing up in Strongsville, Ohio, Pat Chun often felt on the outside— An Asian-American boy always recognized as Asian – but seldom as American. Advertisement Pat Chun: 'And Karate Kid comes out, you know, and then all of a sudden, you know, your dad becomes Mr. Miyagi and everyone's waxing on, waxing off in front of you.' But there's nothing more all American than sports. 'It's the one thing that regardless of what you look like, what you sound like, if you can play it, if you can talk it, it just connects you.' And he is certainly connected. Distinguished and distinctive in the world of athletics: the first Asian-American Athletics Director of a power conference – first at Washington State Now at U-Dub But it's come with challenges he never saw coming It's the most pain that i've ever walked into Advertisement And it's a success that his mother still can't quite appreciate. 'There were four outcomes for me coming out of the womb - doctor, lawyer, engineer, and failure. so I'm four.' SUCCESS IS MESSY. AND THIS IS WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE. I'M MONIQUE MING LAVEN. AND THIS IS A PODCAST ABOUT REALLY SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE – AND THEIR MISTAKES, SETBACKS, SCREWUPS – BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT MAKES YOU SMARTER AND STRONGER. YOU HAVE TO KEEP TAKING YOUR BEST SHOT – AGAIN AND AGAIN -- AND IT'S GOING TO BE 'HIT AND MISS' -------------------------- When Pat Chun first became Athletics Director at Washington State in 2018 – then six years later at the University of Washington – there was one huge college sports fan I thought of: Earl Wong. Advertisement He didn't go to school in Washington. He was a University of California Golden Bear, Class of 1940, and he was my grandfather. Grandpa would've been rooting for Chun. He would've recognized the power of sports in Chun's life – and how it could be a bridge over racial divides. He would have identified with the prejudice Chun faced— how he laughs it off, while still being concerned about how it affects his family. And the easy way he chuckles about it – not because it's funny, but because it's ridiculous. And sometimes laughter *is the best medicine. But he also says the biggest mistakes in his life are his own. We may all recognize something of that in ourselves – if we're as honest as he is. Advertisement Now, you Cougs out there – you may want to hate on him. You can't forgive him for leaving Washington State for U-Dub. (My friends Mary and Julie, I'm especially talking about you). I know, I know – anywhere but U-Dub. But let me know if hearing more about his experience changes anything for you. Back when he and I talked about his 'betrayal' – he cited one big decision he made that left Wazzou in a much better place. And that's since gotten blown up… You'll know what I'm talking about. But back to when Pat Chun first started at Washington State. 2018. He became the first – and only – Asian-American Athletic Director in a power conference— Advertisement The Washington Post wrote an article about it… And Grandpa would have saved it. MML: 'the title was how rare is Pat Chun's path in college sports. You'd have to be an Asian American to understand this. Yeah. What does that mean?' Pat Chun: 'That article is funny because I had already been an athletic director at a at Florida Atlantic University for five and a half years. And and my, my mom is, I would say, your, stereotypical Korean mother, who, who, who is a big part of her life is her church. And, once that article made it into, the ether of our church. It, she called me exuberant with pride. And I had to remind my mom, it's like, hey, you know, I've been doing this for five and a half years, but you're in the Washington Post now.' Advertisement CHUN HAD ALREADY BEEN THE ATHLETIC DIRECTOR AT FLORIDA ATLANTIC FOR ALMOST SIX YEARS. DURING THAT TIME, FAU STUDENT-ATHLETES SET A SCHOOL RECORD FOR HIGHEST COMBINED GPA, RECEIVED THE LARGEST SINGLE DONATION IN SCHOOL HISTORY, AND THE FOOTBALL TEAM HAD RECORD SUCCESS. HIS SUCCESS WAS CLEAR. BUT I GET IT. WHILE GRANDPA WOULD HAVE ALREADY KNOWN ABOUT CHUN – ADMIRED HIM-- THAT ARTICLE WOULD'VE VALIDATED HIS SUCCESS TO RUBY WONG, MY GRANDMOTHER— WHO HAD MORE THAN A TOUCH OF THE FAMED 'TIGER MOM' SPIRIT THAT RUNS THROUGH SO MANY ASIAN-AMERICAN MATERNAL FIGURES – A SPIRIT THAT BOTH MOTIVATES AND IRRITATES-- Advertisement AND IS ALSO THE LOVE LANGUAGE OF MANY IMMIGRANT PARENTS. Pat Chun: I'm a, I'm a first gen, you know, my both my parents came from South Korea. You know, the older you get, you kind of have a better understanding of the sacrifices your parents make. Later in life, you learn, you know, their American dream really was never meant for them. Like they they come to this country to find, a different, you know, a different future for their kids. My parents came here are two tools, you know, you know, an unquestionable work ethic and a belief in education. And that is that has kind of been two centering things for me in my career. But, but beyond that, though, it was always meant for their kids to go accomplish something. And, you know, I'm fortunate to have parents that made that sacrifice. // Advertisement Monique What was it like for you growing up in Ohio as a Korean-American? Chun 80s was a different time. You know, I joke around with my daughters. They couldn't survive, just with just just how the world was. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just, you know, when you look different. You know, I grew up in, you know, essentially white, middle class, Catholic, you know, Cleveland, Ohio. You know, in the West Side suburbs, Bronzeville was a town I grew up in. But it was, you know, it was it was, in hindsight, you know, it was, you know, when you look different, when your parents talk different, you know, my parents still, you know, my my my dad passed away. My mom still has, you know, somewhat broken English even to this day, even though she's been in this country for over 50 years. You know, it's it's, it, you know, good, bad or indifferent, it it develops a toughness in you, you know, that you probably don't recognize until later in life. But also I would also put, like my parents were so focused on assimilating like they they believe in America, they believe in the American dream. And they also, you know, we didn't even speak Korean at home. They force they were they were so focused on learning English that we spoke English at home. Monique They were willing to take the licks of some racism and stereotyping as kind of the the cost for entry for their children. Yeah. What was it like for you, though? Who? Who's going? You're an American kid. Yeah. And your parents and you, I'm sure, sometimes were seen as non-Americans. Yeah. Chun for my generation, when your parents come here, you know, they actually know who they are. You know, so for them to continue with their customs and their food and their language, it's who they are, you know, and their work ethic. Like they weren't going to let whatever, whatever microaggressions or racism or, you know, bigotry they faced, it was never going to waver them from their goals. Different when you're a kid. Advertisement Monique Yes. Chun Because you don't know who you. Monique Are, right? Chun You don't know why you look different. You don't know why you're you know, you don't know why. You're the only kid on the street where there's rice always cooking at us, you know? So those are all the things as you grow up. You just have to, you know, you just. You go. I think I'll, you know, they're not no different than a lot of, you know, kids of immigrants. You go on this journey to try to figure out, you know, who you are and what you're you know, you know what your differences are, in life. And you know that that's that's, you know, probably always been in the back of my brain somewhere. Advertisement IT SOUNDS FAMILIAR: THAT LIMBO. NOT CASTING OFF YOUR FAMILY – BUT TRYING SHAKE OFF THE STEREOTYPES ATTACHED TO RACE. MY MIDDLE NAME -- MING – HAS SEVERAL DIFFERENT MEANINGS OR VERSIONS, EACH WITH ITS OWN CHINESE CHARACTERS. GRANDPA EXPLAINED THAT TO ME AS HE DREW THE TWO THAT REPRESENT MY VERSION OF THE NAME. ONE IS THE CHARACTER FOR SUN, THE OTHER FOR MOON. TOGETHER THEY MEAN 'BRILLIANT.' I STILL HAVE THAT PIECE OF PAPER. BUT WHEN I WAS YOUNGER, THE NAME WAS MORE PROBLEMATIC. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN LINKED TO OTHER ASIAN CARICATURES – LIKE IN SIXTEEN CANDLES 'WHAT'S HAPPENING HIT STUFF?' – OR FULL METAL JACKET Advertisement 'ME LOVE YOU LONG TIME' --OR KARATE KID 'WAX ON WAX OFF' - A WHOLE SLOUGH OF STEREOTYPES. SO EVEN THIS FIFTH GENERATION CHINESE-AMERICAN CAN RECOGNIZE THE AMBIVALENCE OF AN IMMIGRANT'S CHILD -- WHO WANTS TO BE ACCEPTED BUT NOT PIGEON-HOLED. Monique I'll make a bit of a confession for you. To you, when I was growing up. So my full name is Monique Ming Laven. Okay, okay. I just started using it as an adult, though, as Monique Laven when I was growing up. And people would tell me all the time, oh, I didn't know you were Asian. Yeah. And so there was something in me that denied it a little bit. Yeah. I was aware when I was passing and would embrace that sometimes. Yeah. Did you have that same did you struggle the same way with your Korean identity versus an American identity? Advertisement Chun Oh, absolutely. Like my you just made me think of it. My, my dad taught taekwondo. So that was like I tell, you know, when I introduce, when I, when I give the story of my upbringing, I tell my, you know, my, my parents are stereotypes. You know, my dad taught taekwondo. My mom still works in the grocery store in our hometown to this day. She's a cashier. She's a she is in Korea. She was a classically trained pianist. Monique Wow. Chun The highest levels. And gave that up, you know, to come to this country. She'd been the cashier. You know, your dad teaches taekwondo. All the all your friends in school know that he does. And Karate Kid comes out, you know, and then all of a sudden, you know, your dad becomes Mr. Miyagi and everyone's waxing on, waxing off in front of you. Those are, you know, you know, and those are just, you know, when you look back, those are, those are those are very, very, impressionable parts of a young person's life, you know, because you're trying to because you should be proud of who you are, you know, and and you're, you know, essentially getting made fun of all the time. Now, the wonderful thing, though, in life is I get to see my daughters today that have, have an extraordinary amount of pride of what they're, you know, they're half Korean and, you know, make fun of me because they feel like I'm a sellout compared to them. Because I don't I don't embrace my Korean heritage. They do. And they love the food. They love learning more about it. They want to learn more about, you know, my wife does a wonderful job of making sure that, they're well aware of, their heritage. I go back to my hometown now there's, you know, Korean fast food places around the corner. My mom lives like when I was a kid in the 80s, I would have, like, one that wouldn't have happened to. I would have been like. Like, no way I'm eating there, right? Yeah. We had to. Advertisement Monique McDonald's. Yeah. Said, yeah. Chun Now it's there. You know, now my girls love Korean food and they love talking about there's a pride in who they're at. And it's cool. Just so I think it's just the evolution of the world. BUT BEFORE THAT EVOLUTION – LONG BEFORE HIS HOMETOWN HAD KOREAN RESTAURANTS-- THERE WAS A PATH FOR A YOUNG PAT CHUN TO FIND ACCEPTANCE. THE OBVIOUS AVENUE FOR ANY BOY IN STRONGSVILLE, OHIO: Pat Chun: like in northeast Ohio. Football like football is a part of your identity. So are part of Northeast Ohio's identity. So I grew up. I was just a kid that loved, you know, I loved Ohio State football. I love Cleveland Browns football, you love playing football. Advertisement Probably that's what drew me to sports initially as a kid. Yeah, because it's a great connector. And it's a one thing that regardless of what what you look like, what you sound like, if you can play it, if you can talk it, it just connects you, with friends. And I think that's probably one of the biggest. You know, when I look back on my youth, you know, and I enjoyed sports, too, but, you know, it's probably one of the reasons why I gravitated to sports so much. THAT GRAVITATIONAL PULL COULD ONLY REALLY LEAD TO ONE PLACE FOR A KID LIKE HIM: THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY. IT WAS THE DOUBLE PULLEY THAT COULD LIFT UP THE EDUCATION HIS PARENTS SO VALUED WITH THE ATHLETIC TRADITION HIS FRIENDS REVERED. Advertisement BUT THERE WERE BUMPS. Chun I actually took Korean and Ohio State. Mobique Did you? Chun Really? I thought it was an easy. It was the biggest mistake of my life. I thought because we. We spoke it enough at home. I could just go in. And once you're in college, it's like it's full immersion. I was like, wow, this is, this is a huge mistake. Monique You said that your parents were kind of stereotypical Korean, so I'm guessing they weren't full board, like, go into athletics then, Pat? Pat Chun: But it was always, you know, it's the joke I always use. And this is really a reflection of my mom and dad is they had, you know, there were four outcomes for me as, as, you know, coming out of the womb doctor, lawyer, engineer or failure. So so you have four. I'm still four. Like I'm not. Yeah. At least I have a couple news stories or or the the women at my mom's church can read that. I've done something with my life, but I. If you were to go back to my youth. I checked the fourth box. Laughs yeah. Advertisement Monique So how did you convince them? I mean, did you have to keep on trying to convince them until that article came out that I'm doing okay here? If anything, I think I was fortunate because my mom really focused on being your best. And that was really something that was more important to her. Now, trust me, she'd rather me go to Harvard, Yale and be a doctor or a lawyer. Right? She was. Yeah. But I think also I was when I reflect back, it was always more about being the best you're supposed to be. HE GOT HIS MASTERS AT DUQUESNE (DO-CANE), THEN RETURNED HOME TO OSU TO START HIS CAREER. OVER 15 YEARS, HE DID JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING: DEVELOPMENT, ENDOWMENT BUILDING, STRATEGIC PLANNING. WHAT HE COULDN'T FULLY EXPLAIN TO HIS MOM— IS WHAT IT MEANT TO FIND YOUR HOME IN THE OSU ATHLETICS DEPARTMENT: Advertisement ONE OF THE BEST FUNDED, FAMOUS, AND SUCCESSFUL PROGRAMS IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY… IN THE COMPANY OF SOME OF THE TOP SPORTS ADMINISTRATORS, INCLUDING LEGENDARY A-D GENE SMITH. Pat Chun: The blessing for me was that environment, allowed so many people to pour into me. Like at the end of the day, I'm just, you know, a son of two immigrants from South Korea. Yeah. Like me, the the fact that no one looks like me didn't wear like it was. You had all these great, administrators, coaches, donors that, you know, fortunately for me, saw something in me probably that I did not see in myself for a very long time. They were always willing to give me life advice. Guidance pushed me in the right direction. Tell me what books I should be reading. You know, it's really I'm a product of that environment, but it's really all those great people. And to be in college athletics and be surrounded by so many great coaches and watch how they operate and be brought under the hood of why they do things, you know, a lot is, you know, is really, you know, is really set the foundation of my career. And then when GENE walked in the door a few years later, he actually challenged me to be an ad and put me under his wing and taught me the business. Advertisement Monique He he suggested that. Chun Oh, yeah, he's the one that plan. He's the one that planted the seed inside me. Monique No kidding? Yeah. And you were kind of known as a rainmaker, right? Chun Yeah. I was having success in fundraising at that point. He'd actually only been there. You know, Gene prides himself on his ability to read people, and it was it was really probably within the first couple months. Everybody's evaluating his staff. You know, he asked me, you know, what do you want to do with your career? And I actually told him I wanted to be an 80, but it was only because I'm a, you know, the kiss up in me- thinking that's what he wanted to hear. Advertisement But then he challenged me, and then he, you know, he told me like, he's like, if you want, you know, he said, you know, basically said, if if I want to be mentored, if I want to be coached, you know, he he do that. But I need to listen to him. And, you know, that took me on a journey working for a gene that I could have never imagined. THAT JOURNEY LED ALL THE WAY TO BECOMING EXECUTIVE ASSOCIATE ATHLETICS DIRECTOR. GENE SMITH AND OTHERS HAD TAKEN HIM UNDER THEIR WINGS – BUT EVENTUALLY HE HAD TO SPREAD HIS OWN. Pat Chun: I'd gotten myself to a place where I knew I my goals personally were be the best I'm supposed to be. And I knew that being at Ohio State, which was always home, I could never do that without getting outside of my comfort zone. Yeah. And the only way, only true growth can only happen once you get out of your comfort zone. So no matter how many times I would think of, you know, even though I was promoted a lot and had done a lot of things, I was never really outside of my comfort zone. I joke around within our industry that Ohio State did little to nothing to prepare me for a mid-major job that is resource poor right now. The one thing that Ohio State did prepare me for, though, was it's the old Woody Hayes saying is you win with people and how people are the heart and soul and the source of everything within an organization. Yeah. So, so the nice thing for me, though, is allowed me to learn about the ad position and, you know, we had enough successes there at Florida Atlantic that that got me to Pullman, of all places. And, fast forward with their six years. Proud of the relationships, that you built there and the things we're able to do there. And that brought me here at the end of March. Advertisement JANUARY OF 2018, CHUN WAS HIRED AS ATHLETICS DIRECTOR AT WASHINGTON STATE. WEEKS EARLIER, THE COUGS HAD PLAYED IN THE HOLIDAY BOWL. THEY LOST TO MICHIGAN STATE, BUT QUARTERBACK TYLER HILINSKI THREW FOR 272 YARDS AND TWO TOUCHDOWNS, AND HE WAS JUST A RED SHIRT SOPHOMORE. HE WOULD NEVER BECOME A JUNIOR. Monique Talking about was you right as you were going to be announced as the AD, horrible tragedy hit Washington state that you could not have seen. And that was Tyler Hilinski taking it. Yeah, yeah. Tell me about that. I believe that happened right before. Right before. Chun I started. Yes. Yeah. Monique How did you find out? How did you decide to deal with that? That must have been tough. Chun: Yeah. It it'll it'll. When I look back on my career, it's the most pain that I've ever walked into. Now, from an aid perspective. Starting with tragedy is not, is that anything anyone should do, should want to do but enforced? You could see people in the realest light and you could see the heart of Washington state. Just just wrap itself around all the student athletes after that tragedy. It was there were hard, hard, hard days, weeks, months. And I was, you know, I will be the first to admit I was not well versed in, all the things that go in and around, suicide. But also it it it forced all of us to take a look in the mirror to figure out what are we are we doing, in terms of mental health support? So it was a lot of it was it was probably when you go back to learning, it was the best learning I've, I've probably had to go through. But it was also, you know, it was as you know, it was, you know, it's heartbreaking to walk into, you know, it was just heartbreaking. And there's there just it's, you know, the, you know, the layers of that are lasting. Yeah, yeah. HE GIVES COACH MIKE LEACH A LOT OF CREDIT FOR GUIDING THE TEAM THROUGH THAT TRAGEDY. TWO YEARS LATER, LEACH LEFT FOR MISSISSIPPI STATE. BIG SHOES TO FILL. CHUN HIRED NICK ROLOVICH FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF HAWAII. THE VERY NEXT SEASON, HE FIRED HIM. Monique: Talk about another challenge. You couldn't have predicted the pandemic. Then Rolovich won't get vaccinated. You let him go. And you were right in the middle of, so much controversy. // So much anger in the middle of the pandemic. Can you tell me what that was like to deal with that? Those are tough decisions to make. Chun: Yeah. I mean, you go back to those times and and where, where we were at, you know, where the world was at, where the state was at. You know, the the one positive I always go to is that let us let Washington state down on the road to find Jake Dicker. And Jake is the perfect fit for Washington state and the, you know, to watch him, you know, grow as a coach, to watch him, you know, develop that football program. It's going to be odd. We're running against him one game a year and this year. But it's you know that that to me it was always, you know, as as Washington state came out of that time, they ended up with a coach who's a perfect fit for Washington State. Monique: You became a target, though, for people who were against the vaccination mandate. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if people transferred the anti-Chinese feeling to you. Chun: Yeah, I mean, that that was that there were there were a whole bunch of things going on in society with anti-Asian sentiment at that time. And, it was yeah, it was it was probably when I look back. Yeah, as you bring that up and, you know, it was probably harder trying to explain things to my daughters, because they would see, see things on TV that were anti-Asian. They would quickly shift, not to me in my well-being, but to their grandmother's. Yeah. Because she lives by herself. She's in Cleveland, Ohio. Yeah. You know, so that and trying to explain to them, because they've lived in a different world, different society, where, that being Asian is more accepted or is accepted and even more accepted and just trying to let you know, it's just there are so much anti-Asian rhetoric and that moment in that time and just trying to explain to them where the world is at, why these things are being said and, you know, and how we, you know, what is the, you know, what is the hope of going forward. But that's probably when I look back on those and that's that's what I think of. HE FELT THE PULL BACK TO OHIO. SPRING OF 2024, HE KNEW IT WAS TIME TO SPREAD HIS WINGS AGAIN. CHUN'S TENURE AT WAZZOU WAS UNDENIABLY SUCCESSFUL— WOMEN'S AND MEN'S BASKETBALL MADE THE TOURNAMENT- FOOTBALL COACH JAKE DICKERT LED THE COUGS TO CONSECUTIVE BOWL GAMES- FUNDRAISING ALMOST TRIPLED. BUT, THEN IN MARCH, A STAKE THROUGH THE HEART: CHUN LEFT … NOT FOR OSU BUT FOR RIVAL UDUB. COUGS WERE STUNNED AND ANGRY. BUT CHUN WAS SURPRISED TOO. IT WASN'T HIS PLAN. HE THOUGHT THE TIME HAD COME TO RETURN HOME TO OHIO STATE. BUT THE NEW UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT DIDN'T KNOW HIM, AND HE WENT WITH SOMEONE ELSE. Monique You mentioned Gene Smith announced his retirement last year. Yeah. I imagine you perked up a little bit. What was it like not to get that job? Chun My wife reminds me that the good Lord has a plan for us. And, you know, I've, I've I've joked around with friends that, I'll go back to my original plan in life and let the good Lord decide what we're supposed to be, not me. IT WAS PART OF REORIENTING HIMSELF – AWAY FROM THE HOME WHERE HE WAS BORN AND TOWARD THE ONE HE BUILT— WITH HIS WIFE NATALIE FOR THEIR THREE DAUGHTERS. Monique Any mistakes you made as a father that you want to share? Chun Oh, tons. Probably. a little bit like I said, I blame my parents for a lot of things. Monique Don't we all? Chun When I, when I first took my job by my first aid job, I was always of the mindset, I'm doing this, you know, for my family. Like you're the first. You put all this stupid stuff in your head about, you can't fail. And you know, if you don't, if you don't, if you don't have success as an A.D., send me a long time for another Asian American gets another one. So you have all this garbage in your head. It was actually Natalie and I. remember Natalie had, had an intervention with me one time, and she talked about, you know, how, you know, like, I'm bringing home too much stress and, like, all this, all this, all this stress is impacting, you know, the relationship with my girls. But then I remember I had and I was talking to a mentor one time. He had said that when you take a leadership, a job that's in a leadership role, he's like the most important person in your in in your world is your wife. And he's like, he said, because when you go into that role, he's like, you're going to have instant friends, instant colleagues, and your wife's going to be sitting at home trying to figure out doctors and, what day the garbage is supposed to go out. And she's going to actually be doing the real work, and trying to figure stuff out on her own while you got people helping you. And I discounted it because I'm like, you know, I care about my wife and kids. Like, that's not important to me. It took me forever to figure out that I'm not I don't I'm not doing this job for them. Like, I get to do this job because of them, because of all their sacrifices. And that shift took me forever to figure out. 1 47 11 HIS FAMILY IS EXCITED TO BE IN SEATTLE. THEIR PULLMAN HOUSE SOLD IN ONE DAY. THE MOVE WAS EASY - THE COMMUNITY WELCOMING. HIS GIRLS LOVE THE CITY. AND APPARENTLY THE GOOD LORD HAS A SENSE OF HUMOR. U-DUB JOINED THE BIG 10. SO IN THE 2025 FOOTBALL SEASON, HE WILL BE RETURNING TO OSU …. AS A NEW *RIVAL. AND JUST LIKE WHEN HE WAS A KID, HE MAY FEEL PARTLY AT HOME – AND PARTLY LIKE A VISITOR. Pat Chun: I told my daughters that, when you look back in life, you're always better off going after things, that challenge you the most and not getting them then not trying at all. And there's always lessons to be learned from that. And, like I said, for us to have ended up here was really were supposed to be. And, you know, we've embraced that. And, you know, we're excited for what's around the corner for us here. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Was it a Hit or Miss? I would love to hear what you think. You can find me, Monique Ming Laven on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. All the links are on Photography and editing – by Jeff Ritter. Art Direction from Ryan Barber – Invaluable feedback from Julie Berg, Kyla Grace, and James Sido. I hope you'll continue the ride with me. Please follow this podcast for all the episodes, dropping on Wednesdays. Next time on 'Hit and Miss:' ((NATS PIANO)) RICK STEVES LIKE YOU'VE NEVER HEARD BEFORE. ((nats)) MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE READ HIS GUIDEBOOKS – WATCHED HIS TWELVE SEASONS OF 'RICK STEVES' EUROPE'—GONE ON TRIPS THROUGH HIS TRAVEL COMPANY. BUT HE WAS NOT ALWAYS AN EXPERT 1 12 07 this is day two on our trip, and we're already almost dead. THE JOURNEY—FILLED WITH MISTAKES— THAT MADE THIS FORMER PIANO TEACHER … THE TRAVEL GURU HE IS TODAY 01:08:25] and I was debating whether or not I should lose my marijuana virginity in Afghanistan. THAT'S ON THE NEXT HIT AND MISS.
