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10 years after the Supreme Court protected same-sex marriage, a man at the heart of the case looks back
10 years after the Supreme Court protected same-sex marriage, a man at the heart of the case looks back Ten years after the Supreme Court legalized gay marriage, Ohioan Jim Obergefell worries the decision could be at risk. Here is what he has to say
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Ohio's Jim Obergefell on gay marriage Supreme Court win and what's next
Ten years ago, Ohioan Jim Obergefell catapulted into the national spotlight as the man who took gay marriage to the U.S. Supreme Court and won the right for millions of people like him and his husband.
Jim Obergefell and John Arthur, an Ohio couple, married in Maryland in 2013 due to Ohio's same-sex marriage ban.
Their case, *Obergefell v. Hodges*, led to the 2015 Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex marriage nationwide.
Obergefell reflects on the decision's 10th anniversary, expressing concern about current threats to LGBTQ+ rights.
In 2013, Jim Obergefell and John Arthur flew on a medical jet to exchange vows in Maryland where same-sex marriage was legal at the time.
With Arthur in hospice care for amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, time was slipping away for the couple, and their home state of Ohio prohibited same-sex marriage.
Days after their tarmac wedding, civil rights attorney Al Gerhardstein showed them a blank death certificate.
More: After 775K gay marriages, Americans are still fighting for rights 10 years later
"Do you guys understand that when John dies, his last record as a person will be wrong here, where it says marital status at the time of death?" Gerhardstein told them. "Ohio will say John was unmarried. And Jim, your name will not be here, where it says surviving spouse name."
Broken hearted and angry at the idea of not being recognized by their home state, Arthur and Obergefell told Gerhardstein, yes, they wanted to do something about it.
Arthur didn't live to see the fruits of that decision: On June 26, 2015 in a 5-4 decision in Obergefell v. Hodges, the U.S. Supreme Court decided states must allow for same-sex marriages and must recognize those solemnized in other states.
Obergefell and his husband John Arthur were at the center of the U.S. Supreme Court case that legalized gay marriage in 2015. Arthur died in October 2013 at the age of 48.
Obergefell, now 58, splits his time on multiple projects: a wine business, speaking engagements, promotion of a new book, helping a local equality nonprofit and more.
The following is a question and answer session with Obergefell, reflecting on the 10-year anniversary of the same-sex marriage ruling and the state of LGBTQ+ rights today. It has been edited for clarity and brevity.
Question: Ten years ago, you were in the courtroom on June 26 when U.S. Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy read the decision summary. What was your reaction?
Obergefell: Initially I thought "we won" but it's legal writing, which isn't incredibly clear to non-lawyers, but then it sunk in, "Yeah, Jim, you won." And I burst into tears, and I could hear people around the courtroom sobbing. My first thought was, "John, I wish you were here. I wish you could experience this. I wish you could know that our marriage cannot be erased." What I wasn't expecting to feel was this realization that for the first time in my life as an out gay man, I felt like an equal American.
Question: The decision changed the lives of millions of Americans. How do you feel about that now, 10 years later?
Obergefell: Being part of the plaintiffs who took the fight to marriage equality to the Supreme Court has been an amazing experience. When people find out who I am or recognize me, they'll stop and hug me, shake my hand, tell me stories, show me photos of their loved ones. I've had people come out to me. One woman told me if it weren't for the decision, she would've committed suicide because she never saw a future for herself. I've had the joy of officiating almost 30 weddings since decision day. And John's been gone almost 12 years but I get to talk about him again and again.
Question: You've experienced an outpouring of love and support. Have you also encountered hate?
Obergefell: I have not been subjected to outright hate in public but I'm worried that may change. Other plaintiffs in the case have had bad experiences. I have not. The only explanation I can give is that our story is one of love and loss and most people can relate to losing someone they loved. I also made the decision early on to never read comments on the internet.
Question: Do you feel like a historic figure or hero?
Obergefell: My name is on a landmark Supreme Court decision, so I know I'm part of history. I still remember when my niece texted me a photo of her high school textbook with the story of "Obergefell v Hodges." I don't feel like a hero. John and I simply found ourselves facing a simple question: Were we willing to fight for what we believed in and to fight to exist? And to me, that wasn't a brave decision. That was an obvious decision. John deserved to die with an accurate death certificate, and we deserved to be seen by the state we call home.
Question: How do you feel about same-sex marriage in America now, given the current political climate?
Obergefell: Ten years after the decision, I never thought I would be worried about marriage equality continuing as a right in our nation. We have two sitting Supreme Court justices, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito, who said they want to overturn Obergefell. And Clarence Thomas mentioned other cases that are important to the queer community, including Lawrence versus Texas, which overturned anti-sodomy laws. We have state legislatures passing resolutions urging the court to overturn the case. So, 10 years later, I'm worried about marriage equality because there are people who refuse to let it lie. I just honestly don't understand why. How has any queer marriage ever impacted a straight marriage? It hasn't.
Question: Ohio's defense of marriage act remains in state law and the state constitution. Why do you think Ohio lawmakers never removed those?
Obergefell: It's understandable that a lot of people think the court decision invalidated those laws. But we live in a time when the Supreme Court no longer believes in the bedrock principle of precedence. They overturned Roe versus Wade, which had been precedent for 49 years. Marriage equality has been here for 10 years. It is at risk.
Question: Rick Hodges served as the Ohio Department of Health director at the time during Gov. John Kasich's administration. His name is on the other side of Obergefell v Hodges. What is your relationship with Hodges?
Obergefell: People assume that the person on the other side of a case is an adversary. I love sharing the fact that Rick Hodges and I are friends. We do events together, speak together, do press conferences together. We met in 2016 over coffee and one of the first things he said was "I've never been happier to lose something." As health director, he took an oath to uphold Ohio law but he was on our side the entire time.
Question: After you won at the federal district court, then Gov. John Kasich and then Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine appealed the case to the 6th District Court of Appeals. How do you feel about Kasich and DeWine?
Obergefell: It's fair to say that there is no love lost between John Kasich, Mike DeWine and myself. DeWine as governor has done some things I've approved of but then he does other things that harm the LGBTQ+ community.
Question: What is your message to Gov. DeWine today?
Obergefell: I'd like to remind you that everyone in our community are human beings, deserving of the same human rights and civil rights as any other person in this state. I ask you to push back against the hateful legislation that arrives on your desk. It's your duty to look out for all of us, and that includes people you might not personally like. We deserve to live our lives on equal footing with others in the state. Stop bowing down to the extremists in the state legislature, push back on the harmful, hateful legislation that comes from that body. Stand up. Have some principles and actually make decisions that are based on facts, reality and science instead of lies and half truths made up to target and marginalize communities. That is your duty as a governor.
Question: There is a backlash against diversity, equity and inclusion, LGBTQ rights and against transgender Americans. Where do you think it's leading?
Obergefell: It's leading this nation to a White Christian fascist state. We are heading backward in time instead of forward. We are going back to a time when people of color and queer people weren't considered human beings. You're passing laws and doing things that tell us we are not human beings. That is not what this nation is about. Our founding documents starts with "we the people." And the people means all of us, not just White, straight Christians.
Question: Following the Obergefell decision, polls showed increased support for same sex marriage but then opponents of LGBTQ rights seemed to shift their focus to transgender Americans. Why?
Obergefell: Over those first few years, marriage equality became a normal part of life for millions of people across the country. Their neighbors, their friends, their family members, their coworkers, they were seeing queer marriages happen. People opposed to marriage equality realized they lost that fight but still didn't like the queer community. So they decided to attack the most vulnerable part of the LGBTQ+ community, the trans community. They've been successful in turning trans people into the boogeyman, into these dangerous people when nothing could be further from the truth. They just want to live their lives without fearing for their lives.
Question: Do you see any turning point for the trans community in the next five to 10 years, either positive or negative?
Obergefell: Every part of our community needs to fight for our trans family. We are all considered outsiders by straight society. The thing that would have an impact is if the entire LGBTQ+ community, with one voice, says the trans community is part of our family. We support them. We fight for them. They deserve every right that we enjoy, every right that the rest of society enjoys.
Question: What will the future look like for LGBTQ+ Ohioans and Americans 10 years from now?
Obergefell: I'm going to go with optimism. The future depends on people across the country, across Ohio, realizing that hate is not the way for this country to operate. It will take people understanding that our nation was founded on religious freedom – that doesn't mean making your particular interpretation of your particular faith foremost in everything that happens in our country. It doesn't mean you get to use your faith as a weapon or to dictate how people live their lives. So that national realization has to happen and there has to be pushback against that dangerous path that we're heading down. We also need people to vote.
Question: Having your name on the Supreme Court ruling has given you a big platform. Have you been intentional about how to use it or did your approach just evolve into what we hear from you today?
Obergefell: I used to say I'm an accidental activist. But then I realized John and I were quiet activists because we were open about who we are. I think because of John's health and our decision to get married, I became an activist. That really did change me profoundly. I have to keep fighting to make the world a better place for people who come after me, because, honestly, I owe it to the people who came before me, people like Edie Windsor, Frank Kameny, Harvey Milk. I want a future where a queer kid doesn't have to be afraid or wonder, well what kind of future do I have? They don't have to be terrified about being authentically themselves. So that's what I have to keep fighting for.
