Latest news with #Made-in-America
Business Insider
2 days ago
- Business
- Business Insider
A YouTuber created a $75 grill scrubber to experience the challenges of making stuff in the US — and it sold out
A really nice grill brush will cost you about $25 at your local big box store, but YouTuber Dustin Sandlin is betting he can get customers to shell out three times that amount for a Made-in-America version. Sandlin traces his passion for US manufacturing to the COVID-19 pandemic in 2020, when he was bothered by the lack of American-made essential goods. "Everybody wanted N95 masks and face shields, and they couldn't get it," he said in a recent YouTube video. "This revealed to me how anemic our manufacturing capacity in America has become, because I was waiting on some billionaire to come save us, and it didn't happen." So began a yearslong deep dive into the challenges of making products in the US, which Sandlin documented for his series on YouTube called "Smarter Every Day." After working with John Youngblood, the owner of a local specialty grill accessories company, Sandlin got excited about the idea of developing a better scrubber. Sandlin and Youngblood wanted to produce it in the US with as many domestically sourced components as possible, and sell it at a retail price. In a video that went live Sunday and has since amassed more than 2 million views, Sandlin shares why he decided to get serious about US manufacturing, explains how he navigated the design process, and makes a sales pitch for viewers to buy it for themselves. On Tuesday, Youngblood told Business Insider the $75 scrubber has sold through its initial production run of several thousand units within a day, and his company is now taking pre-orders. "We're going to have a backlog for a while," Youngblood said. Most grill brushes are meant to be thrown away. This one isn't. Many lower-cost grill brushes aren't typically designed to last more than a year of use — grill-maker Weber recommends changing them after each grilling season. Another problem is that the bristles have been known to come off and can end up in grilled food. Sandlin and Youngblood found that welded chain mail — like the material of a medieval knight's armor — was highly effective at cleaning grill grates without breaking. There was one problem: "We could only find it in China." After a few tries, the team managed to find a US supplier who could make about 2,000 units a month and a supplier in India to augment the rest. Attaching the chain mail to a handle proved to be another adventure. Sandlin said the average one-inch industrial bolt costs around 9 cents when imported, but that jumps to 38 cents for versions made in the US. "Most machine shops I talked to directly, they said, 'Yeah, we can't even get the material for the price of the finished bolts that you're getting from a foreign supplier,'" Sandlin said. Then there was the process of making injection-molded parts to provide support and flexibility, which required machining custom tools and dies (the metal forms that shape a material) for shops to use in production. "This is the moment where this whole experiment came into focus for me," Sandlin said. "I realized at that moment we're screwed." American manufacturing has exported the smart part of making stuff The reason for Sandlin's pessimism is that many of the shops he spoke with send tool and die design files to China to be made and imported for use in US production lines. "I don't want my intellectual property in China, I want to make it here," he said. "And they said, 'Good luck.'" The problem illuminated by this episode goes far beyond a seemingly simple grilling accessory. "We're screwed as a nation if we can't do the intelligent work of tool and die: making the tools that make the things," Sandlin said. "We have flipped it. We are now to the point where the smart stuff is done somewhere else." Sandlin and Youngblood eventually found US suppliers for all of their custom components. They're working to get every piece sourced here. The video shows two instances where Sandlin was surprised by the apparent country of origin being different from what he says he was led to believe: The first batch of knobs arrived in packaging stating they were made in Costa Rica rather than the US. Several boxes of chain mail (ostensibly from India) had markings that suggested they were instead from China. "I'm shocked," Sandlin said. "It's pretty weird to set out to try to make a thing completely in America and to find out towards the end of the process that you made something in China anyways." Sandlin says he's not interested in having America be the dominant world player — he wants more opportunities for people here to have good jobs that allow them to take care of their communities. "If you are ever, ever in a position to make a decision about where your thing is manufactured, take a second and consider making a little less profit, maybe in order to invest in your local community," he said.
Malay Mail
29-04-2025
- Business
- Malay Mail
In a vise of slowing demand and rising costs, small businesses are signaling trouble ahead
WASHINGTON, April 29 — Tree trimming season runs 365 days a year in California's temperate climate and that typically means appointments running three weeks in advance for Christopher Altman, enough to keep a staff of five at his Oakland-based business, Trees Company, steadily employed. But demand cratered in mid-March as national economic sentiment slid in the wake of the Trump administration's trade war, and Altman, 53, is now running on savings and credit and about to cancel his planned home improvements to keep his workers paid, an example of how US growth may be folding in on itself more broadly. 'I think it kind of crept up on me, because I'm so used to having everything just work itself out. I was just waiting for those emails... And they just never came,' Altman said of an order flow that as of mid-April was down to a couple days a week. 'All of a sudden, next week was empty and I had no leads and I was getting no calls.' Altman's story could take on broader significance in coming weeks as evidence builds of an economic slowdown coinciding with President Donald Trump's effort to rewire the global economy with tariffs, as households and firms cut spending out of concern for what lies ahead and try to cope with new import taxes that have begun raising supply costs and prices. The full brunt of that effort has not even been felt yet. Trump has put some of his most aggressive trade actions on hold until July, with no certainty about what he will do if his administration fails to negotiate individual deals with up to 90 countries as a substitute for sweeping and steep tariffs on imports from those nations. Yesterday, US Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said the first of those trade agreements may come this week or next, though a deal with China, the nation's biggest trading partner, appeared to be no closer. In the meantime economists have upped their odds of a recession this year in what analysts at the Institute of International Finance said recently would be a downturn due to 'deliberate policy engineering.' Unlike Altman, bow tie manufacturer Beau Ties of Vermont is in the direct line of fire from tariffs that threaten to push prices to prohibitive levels on the Chinese-made fabrics that owner Greg Shugar uses at his factory. Trump has pushed tariffs on Chinese goods to 145 per cent, and while that may be negotiated lower, Shugar said 'we will go out of business if the 145 per cent sticks...I can't imagine us lasting more than 6 to 9 months when all my hoarded fabric runs irony of the whole thing is that we are a Made-in-America company who is supposed to benefit from all these tariffs.' Uncertainty dominates Measures of uncertainty over Trump's first 100 days in office have soared to levels last seen during the Covid-19 pandemic, and consumer and business surveys are showing a steady slide in confidence and an erosion of hiring and investment. Trump's polling numbers on the economy, considered a strength coming out of the 2024 election, have slipped: Only 37 per cent of respondents to a recent Reuters/Ipsos poll approved of his economic management and three-fourths concerned a recession is coming. The latest twice-quarterly pulse-taking of the economy by the Federal Reserve's 12 regional banks painted a dour landscape of falling demand, projects stalled due to 'pervasive' uncertainty, and initial hints of layoffs to come. Shipping industry officials, separately, warn of a sharp downturn developing in US-bound cargo. While slowdown indications are largely limited so far to that kind of 'soft data,' such information has become increasingly important to policymakers as signaling a shift in the direction of an economy that was on solid footing when Trump took over. Key updates are due soon: April's jobs report will be released Friday; data on first-quarter economic growth - the first overall scorecard since Trump's inauguration - is due tomorrow with economists estimating growth at near stall speed. Some hard data is starting to turn as well, including a slower rate of hiring and a lengthening of the average spell of unemployment, a pattern that has 'frequently occurred during the onset of recessions,' according to recent San Francisco Fed research. 'Going to hit everybody' An analysis of economic conditions among small businesses by software firm Intuit estimated that firms with nine or fewer workers cut employment by 3.5 per cent over the first quarter of the year. Revenue did rise, and recent Census data has shown a still elevated level of business creation, a trend considered a sign of underlying resilience. But there are concerning signs, said Ufuk Akcigit, a University of Chicago economist who has developed indices of small business hiring and revenue from Intuit's data on about 400,000 firms using the company's software. Alongside the hiring slowdown, he said, separate data shows a growing gap in credit card usage and payments among small businesses, with firms seemingly caught in a vise of rising input prices and potentially mounting debt. 'Small businesses are really early indicators of what's top two agenda items - prices and interest rates - are both getting are getting into more distressed situations,' Akcigit said. On jobs 'the trend has been negative for some time and it accelerated when uncertainty started to rise substantially.' Damion Love, manager and buyer for Belle Up Boutique, an independent women's clothing store near a commuter rail station in Chicago's Beverly neighborhood, said his immediate concern is inflation. He has been notified by some of the store's clothing brands that wholesale price hikes of at least 10 per cent are likely in the coming months, but a lot depends on the level and duration of Trump's tariffs. While the store sells some clothing lines made in Los Angeles and Chicago, other lower-priced items are made in China and could face taxes that would more than double the cost to import. 'It hasn't hit us yet, but we know it's going to hit everybody,' Love said. The larger concern is how customers will react. While the 16-year-old boutique's clientele is loyal, he said, 'in this economy, everything is about a top is US$49 (RM212) and it shoots up to US$80, the consumer isn't going to say, 'Oh, it's not your fault.' They're just not going to shop here.' In Oakland, Altman spelled out the larger risks if the current outlook becomes the new reality. 'Anxiety has gone to the roof,' he said, 'I have five employees that I need to keep paid, right? Because they have families and because they have bills to pay, they've got rents to pay.' — Reuters
Zawya
29-04-2025
- Business
- Zawya
In a vise of slowing demand and rising costs, small businesses are signaling trouble ahead
Tree trimming season runs 365 days a year in California's temperate climate and that typically means appointments running three weeks in advance for Christopher Altman, enough to keep a staff of five at his Oakland-based business, Trees Company, steadily employed. But demand cratered in mid-March as national economic sentiment slid in the wake of the Trump administration's trade war, and Altman, 53, is now running on savings and credit and about to cancel his planned home improvements to keep his workers paid, an example of how U.S. growth may be folding in on itself more broadly. 'I think it kind of crept up on me, because I'm so used to having everything just work itself out. I was just waiting for those emails… And they just never came," Altman said of an order flow that as of mid-April was down to a couple days a week. "All of a sudden, next week was empty and I had no leads and I was getting no calls.' Altman's story could take on broader significance in coming weeks as evidence builds of an economic slowdown coinciding with President Donald Trump's effort to rewire the global economy with tariffs, as households and firms cut spending out of concern for what lies ahead and try to cope with new import taxes that have begun raising supply costs and prices. The full brunt of that effort has not even been felt yet. Trump has put some of his most aggressive trade actions on hold until July, with no certainty about what he will do if his administration fails to negotiate individual deals with up to 90 countries as a substitute for sweeping and steep tariffs on imports from those nations. On Monday, U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said the first of those trade agreements may come this week or next, though a deal with China, the nation's biggest trading partner, appeared to be no closer. In the meantime economists have upped their odds of a recession this year in what analysts at the Institute of International Finance said recently would be a downturn due to "deliberate policy engineering." Unlike Altman, bow tie manufacturer Beau Ties of Vermont is in the direct line of fire from tariffs that threaten to push prices to prohibitive levels on the Chinese-made fabrics that owner Greg Shugar uses at his factory. Trump has pushed tariffs on Chinese goods to 145%, and while that may be negotiated lower, Shugar said "we will go out of business if the 145% sticks...I can't imagine us lasting more than 6 to 9 months when all my hoarded fabric runs irony of the whole thing is that we are a Made-in-America company who is supposed to benefit from all these tariffs." UNCERTAINTY DOMINATES Measures of uncertainty over Trump's first 100 days in office have soared to levels last seen during the COVID-19 pandemic, and consumer and business surveys are showing a steady slide in confidence and an erosion of hiring and investment. Trump's polling numbers on the economy, considered a strength coming out of the 2024 election, have slipped: Only 37% of respondents to a recent Reuters/Ipsos poll approved of his economic management and three-fourths concerned a recession is coming. The latest twice-quarterly pulse-taking of the economy by the Federal Reserve's 12 regional banks painted a dour landscape of falling demand, projects stalled due to "pervasive" uncertainty, and initial hints of layoffs to come. Shipping industry officials, separately, warn of a sharp downturn developing in U.S.-bound cargo. While slowdown indications are largely limited so far to that kind of "soft data," such information has become increasingly important to policymakers as signaling a shift in the direction of an economy that was on solid footing when Trump took over. Key updates are due soon: April's jobs report will be released Friday; data on first-quarter economic growth - the first overall scorecard since Trump's inauguration - is due Wednesday, with economists estimating growth at near stall speed. Some hard data is starting to turn as well, including a slower rate of hiring and a lengthening of the average spell of unemployment, a pattern that has "frequently occurred during the onset of recessions," according to recent San Francisco Fed research. 'GOING TO HIT EVERYBODY' An analysis of economic conditions among small businesses by software firm Intuit estimated that firms with nine or fewer workers cut employment by 3.5% over the first quarter of the year. Revenue did rise, and recent Census data has shown a still elevated level of business creation, a trend considered a sign of underlying resilience. But there are concerning signs, said Ufuk Akcigit, a University of Chicago economist who has developed indices of small business hiring and revenue from Intuit's data on about 400,000 firms using the company's software. Alongside the hiring slowdown, he said, separate data shows a growing gap in credit card usage and payments among small businesses, with firms seemingly caught in a vise of rising input prices and potentially mounting debt. "Small businesses are really early indicators of what's top two agenda items - prices and interest rates - are both getting are getting into more distressed situations," Akcigit said. On jobs "the trend has been negative for some time and it accelerated when uncertainty started to rise substantially." Damion Love, manager and buyer for Belle Up Boutique, an independent women's clothing store near a commuter rail station in Chicago's Beverly neighborhood, said his immediate concern is inflation. He has been notified by some of the store's clothing brands that wholesale price hikes of at least 10% are likely in the coming months, but a lot depends on the level and duration of Trump's tariffs. While the store sells some clothing lines made in Los Angeles and Chicago, other lower-priced items are made in China and could face taxes that would more than double the cost to import. "It hasn't hit us yet, but we know it's going to hit everybody," Love said. The larger concern is how customers will react. While the 16-year-old boutique's clientele is loyal, he said, "in this economy, everything is about a top is $49 and it shoots up to $80, the consumer isn't going to say, 'Oh, it's not your fault.' They're just not going to shop here." In Oakland, Altman spelled out the larger risks if the current outlook becomes the new reality. "Anxiety has gone to the roof,' he said, 'I have five employees that I need to keep paid, right? Because they have families and because they have bills to pay, they've got rents to pay.' (Reporting by Howard Schneider Additional reporting by Ann Saphir in San Francisco, David Lawder in Chicago, and Arriana McLymore in New York; Editing by Anna Driver and Dan Burns)
Yahoo
29-04-2025
- Business
- Yahoo
In a vise of slowing demand and rising costs, small businesses are signaling trouble ahead
By Howard Schneider, Ann Saphir WASHINGTON (Reuters) -Tree trimming season runs 365 days a year in California's temperate climate and that typically means appointments running three weeks in advance for Christopher Altman, enough to keep a staff of five at his Oakland-based business, Trees Company, steadily employed. But demand cratered in mid-March as national economic sentiment slid in the wake of the Trump administration's trade war, and Altman, 53, is now running on savings and credit and about to cancel his planned home improvements to keep his workers paid, an example of how U.S. growth may be folding in on itself more broadly. 'I think it kind of crept up on me, because I'm so used to having everything just work itself out. I was just waiting for those emails… And they just never came," Altman said of an order flow that as of mid-April was down to a couple days a week. "All of a sudden, next week was empty and I had no leads and I was getting no calls.' Altman's story could take on broader significance in coming weeks as evidence builds of an economic slowdown coinciding with President Donald Trump's effort to rewire the global economy with tariffs, as households and firms cut spending out of concern for what lies ahead and try to cope with new import taxes that have begun raising supply costs and prices. The full brunt of that effort has not even been felt yet. Trump has put some of his most aggressive trade actions on hold until July, with no certainty about what he will do if his administration fails to negotiate individual deals with up to 90 countries as a substitute for sweeping and steep tariffs on imports from those nations. On Monday, U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said the first of those trade agreements may come this week or next, though a deal with China, the nation's biggest trading partner, appeared to be no closer. In the meantime economists have upped their odds of a recession this year in what analysts at the Institute of International Finance said recently would be a downturn due to "deliberate policy engineering." Unlike Altman, bow tie manufacturer Beau Ties of Vermont is in the direct line of fire from tariffs that threaten to push prices to prohibitive levels on the Chinese-made fabrics that owner Greg Shugar uses at his factory. Trump has pushed tariffs on Chinese goods to 145%, and while that may be negotiated lower, Shugar said "we will go out of business if the 145% sticks...I can't imagine us lasting more than 6 to 9 months when all my hoarded fabric runs irony of the whole thing is that we are a Made-in-America company who is supposed to benefit from all these tariffs." UNCERTAINTY DOMINATES Measures of uncertainty over Trump's first 100 days in office have soared to levels last seen during the COVID-19 pandemic, and consumer and business surveys are showing a steady slide in confidence and an erosion of hiring and investment. Trump's polling numbers on the economy, considered a strength coming out of the 2024 election, have slipped: Only 37% of respondents to a recent Reuters/Ipsos poll approved of his economic management and three-fourths concerned a recession is coming. The latest twice-quarterly pulse-taking of the economy by the Federal Reserve's 12 regional banks painted a dour landscape of falling demand, projects stalled due to "pervasive" uncertainty, and initial hints of layoffs to come. Shipping industry officials, separately, warn of a sharp downturn developing in U.S.-bound cargo. While slowdown indications are largely limited so far to that kind of "soft data," such information has become increasingly important to policymakers as signaling a shift in the direction of an economy that was on solid footing when Trump took over. Key updates are due soon: April's jobs report will be released Friday; data on first-quarter economic growth - the first overall scorecard since Trump's inauguration - is due Wednesday, with economists estimating growth at near stall speed. Some hard data is starting to turn as well, including a slower rate of hiring and a lengthening of the average spell of unemployment, a pattern that has "frequently occurred during the onset of recessions," according to recent San Francisco Fed research. 'GOING TO HIT EVERYBODY' An analysis of economic conditions among small businesses by software firm Intuit estimated that firms with nine or fewer workers cut employment by 3.5% over the first quarter of the year. Revenue did rise, and recent Census data has shown a still elevated level of business creation, a trend considered a sign of underlying resilience. But there are concerning signs, said Ufuk Akcigit, a University of Chicago economist who has developed indices of small business hiring and revenue from Intuit's data on about 400,000 firms using the company's software. Alongside the hiring slowdown, he said, separate data shows a growing gap in credit card usage and payments among small businesses, with firms seemingly caught in a vise of rising input prices and potentially mounting debt. "Small businesses are really early indicators of what's top two agenda items - prices and interest rates - are both getting are getting into more distressed situations," Akcigit said. On jobs "the trend has been negative for some time and it accelerated when uncertainty started to rise substantially." Damion Love, manager and buyer for Belle Up Boutique, an independent women's clothing store near a commuter rail station in Chicago's Beverly neighborhood, said his immediate concern is has been notified by some of the store's clothing brands that wholesale price hikes of at least 10% are likely in the coming months, but a lot depends on the level and duration of Trump's tariffs. While the store sells some clothing lines made in Los Angeles and Chicago, other lower-priced items are made in China and could face taxes that would more than double the cost to import. "It hasn't hit us yet, but we know it's going to hit everybody," Love said. The larger concern is how customers will react. While the 16-year-old boutique's clientele is loyal, he said, "in this economy, everything is about a top is $49 and it shoots up to $80, the consumer isn't going to say, 'Oh, it's not your fault.' They're just not going to shop here." In Oakland, Altman spelled out the larger risks if the current outlook becomes the new reality. "Anxiety has gone to the roof,' he said, 'I have five employees that I need to keep paid, right? Because they have families and because they have bills to pay, they've got rents to pay.'
Yahoo
29-04-2025
- Business
- Yahoo
In a vise of slowing demand and rising costs, small businesses are signaling trouble ahead
By Howard Schneider, Ann Saphir WASHINGTON (Reuters) -Tree trimming season runs 365 days a year in California's temperate climate and that typically means appointments running three weeks in advance for Christopher Altman, enough to keep a staff of five at his Oakland-based business, Trees Company, steadily employed. But demand cratered in mid-March as national economic sentiment slid in the wake of the Trump administration's trade war, and Altman, 53, is now running on savings and credit and about to cancel his planned home improvements to keep his workers paid, an example of how U.S. growth may be folding in on itself more broadly. 'I think it kind of crept up on me, because I'm so used to having everything just work itself out. I was just waiting for those emails… And they just never came," Altman said of an order flow that as of mid-April was down to a couple days a week. "All of a sudden, next week was empty and I had no leads and I was getting no calls.' Altman's story could take on broader significance in coming weeks as evidence builds of an economic slowdown coinciding with President Donald Trump's effort to rewire the global economy with tariffs, as households and firms cut spending out of concern for what lies ahead and try to cope with new import taxes that have begun raising supply costs and prices. The full brunt of that effort has not even been felt yet. Trump has put some of his most aggressive trade actions on hold until July, with no certainty about what he will do if his administration fails to negotiate individual deals with up to 90 countries as a substitute for sweeping and steep tariffs on imports from those nations. On Monday, U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said the first of those trade agreements may come this week or next, though a deal with China, the nation's biggest trading partner, appeared to be no closer. In the meantime economists have upped their odds of a recession this year in what analysts at the Institute of International Finance said recently would be a downturn due to "deliberate policy engineering." Unlike Altman, bow tie manufacturer Beau Ties of Vermont is in the direct line of fire from tariffs that threaten to push prices to prohibitive levels on the Chinese-made fabrics that owner Greg Shugar uses at his factory. Trump has pushed tariffs on Chinese goods to 145%, and while that may be negotiated lower, Shugar said "we will go out of business if the 145% sticks...I can't imagine us lasting more than 6 to 9 months when all my hoarded fabric runs irony of the whole thing is that we are a Made-in-America company who is supposed to benefit from all these tariffs." UNCERTAINTY DOMINATES Measures of uncertainty over Trump's first 100 days in office have soared to levels last seen during the COVID-19 pandemic, and consumer and business surveys are showing a steady slide in confidence and an erosion of hiring and investment. Trump's polling numbers on the economy, considered a strength coming out of the 2024 election, have slipped: Only 37% of respondents to a recent Reuters/Ipsos poll approved of his economic management and three-fourths concerned a recession is coming. The latest twice-quarterly pulse-taking of the economy by the Federal Reserve's 12 regional banks painted a dour landscape of falling demand, projects stalled due to "pervasive" uncertainty, and initial hints of layoffs to come. Shipping industry officials, separately, warn of a sharp downturn developing in U.S.-bound cargo. While slowdown indications are largely limited so far to that kind of "soft data," such information has become increasingly important to policymakers as signaling a shift in the direction of an economy that was on solid footing when Trump took over. Key updates are due soon: April's jobs report will be released Friday; data on first-quarter economic growth - the first overall scorecard since Trump's inauguration - is due Wednesday, with economists estimating growth at near stall speed. Some hard data is starting to turn as well, including a slower rate of hiring and a lengthening of the average spell of unemployment, a pattern that has "frequently occurred during the onset of recessions," according to recent San Francisco Fed research. 'GOING TO HIT EVERYBODY' An analysis of economic conditions among small businesses by software firm Intuit estimated that firms with nine or fewer workers cut employment by 3.5% over the first quarter of the year. Revenue did rise, and recent Census data has shown a still elevated level of business creation, a trend considered a sign of underlying resilience. But there are concerning signs, said Ufuk Akcigit, a University of Chicago economist who has developed indices of small business hiring and revenue from Intuit's data on about 400,000 firms using the company's software. Alongside the hiring slowdown, he said, separate data shows a growing gap in credit card usage and payments among small businesses, with firms seemingly caught in a vise of rising input prices and potentially mounting debt. "Small businesses are really early indicators of what's top two agenda items - prices and interest rates - are both getting are getting into more distressed situations," Akcigit said. On jobs "the trend has been negative for some time and it accelerated when uncertainty started to rise substantially." Damion Love, manager and buyer for Belle Up Boutique, an independent women's clothing store near a commuter rail station in Chicago's Beverly neighborhood, said his immediate concern is has been notified by some of the store's clothing brands that wholesale price hikes of at least 10% are likely in the coming months, but a lot depends on the level and duration of Trump's tariffs. While the store sells some clothing lines made in Los Angeles and Chicago, other lower-priced items are made in China and could face taxes that would more than double the cost to import. "It hasn't hit us yet, but we know it's going to hit everybody," Love said. The larger concern is how customers will react. While the 16-year-old boutique's clientele is loyal, he said, "in this economy, everything is about a top is $49 and it shoots up to $80, the consumer isn't going to say, 'Oh, it's not your fault.' They're just not going to shop here." In Oakland, Altman spelled out the larger risks if the current outlook becomes the new reality. "Anxiety has gone to the roof,' he said, 'I have five employees that I need to keep paid, right? Because they have families and because they have bills to pay, they've got rents to pay.'
