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Divination isn't scientific, but can it ever be therapeutic?
Sana Qadar: Whenever I read a description of my star sign, which let me preface this by saying is not often, I do think that kind of fits. I don't really believe in astrology and horoscopes, actually I don't believe them at all, but I am totally a Sagittarius. According to astrologers, if you're a Sagittarius, you like new experiences and travel, you're curious and a storyteller, hello, you can also be blunt. I've lived in Washington DC, Beijing, London, Qatar, New Delhi and now Sydney. I tell stories for a living and as my husband can attest, I can be blunt. It all feels like too much of a coincidence not to be true. But the idea that celestial objects and events can determine your personality or how your life is going to go, it's not exactly backed up by science. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: The position of the planets has a lot to do with your inner dynamics. I'm not so sure, but you know, some people really take it seriously. Sana Qadar: Why do we take it seriously? And is it harmful to do so? Or can seeking guidance from the universe ever be therapeutic? Ryan Findlay: If I'm just feeling really confused or stuck or I'm sort of swirling, I just really want to see what the universe wants to tell me essentially. Sana Qadar: I'm Sana Qadar, this is All in the Mind, and this week's episode is from reporter Shelby Traynor, looking into how occult practices like astrology set up cognitive traps that many of us fall into. But also, how practices like reading tea leaves or reading tarot might overlap with traditional therapy. Shelby, hi. Shelby Traynor: Hello. Sana Qadar: I'm very intrigued by all of this subject matter, but let me start by asking you, what's your star sign? Shelby Traynor: I am a Gemini, and I don't always relate to being a Gemini. I feel like Geminis get a bad rap to be honest. Sana Qadar: I don't actually know what a Gemini is supposed to be, so fill me in. Shelby Traynor: They are the twins of the zodiac, and so it's often said that Geminis can be two-faced, which sounds like an insult to me. Sana Qadar: but I don't recognize you as quite as very two-faced. You're pretty straight. Shelby Traynor: No, but maybe I have two sides to me, because I'm one of those people who does not believe in these things, like horoscopes, and also does kind of believe in it at the same time. Like, I own crystals. Do I think that the clear quartz that's beside my bed is bringing me clarity? No. But when I bought it, I was seeking clarity. Sana Qadar: Okay. Shelby Traynor: So there's a little something going on there, clearly. And so I wanted to explore this contradiction of believing and not believing and dig down into why a lot of us feel this way. But I figured, as this is an evidence-based show, we're going to start with the science and the skepticism. But for all the horoscope girlies out there, stick with me. I am a Gemini, as you pointed out, and so this story is going to be quite two-faced. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: People are willing to believe almost anything about themselves if it looks official and seems to fit. Shelby Traynor: This is Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne, a clinical psychologist known for her work on personality and identity. Also, she's a Sagittarius, like Sana, but she doesn't take much stock in it. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: It's like a sock that's not quite too big, not quite too small. You can get it on, it doesn't matter if it doesn't fit perfectly. You're happy with it. Shelby Traynor: She made the connection between a well-known effect in psychology and horoscopes. It's called the Barnum effect. We've mentioned it on All in the Mind before in relation to psychics. It's playfully named after 19th century showman P.T. Barnum. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: We like the name, it's easy, people really can understand it. And it's named after Barnum because of that sucker born every minute. People are willing to believe almost anything about themselves. The more general it is, almost the better, because you will make it fit you. You want to suspend disbelief, you want to believe in it. Shelby Traynor: The Barnum effect was originally called the fallacy of personal validation. And it wasn't coined in response to astrologers reading people's horoscopes, but in response to shoddy personality tests. In 1948, psychologist Bertram Forer gave his students a test which promised to produce a vignette of their personality. But this was all a farce. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: I did the exact same thing that the original researcher had done. I gave a questionnaire, paper and pencil questionnaire. I would give it to my students, they would take it, and then we would magically produce the feedback. What I really did was throw them all out. There was never any scoring. I mean, there's like 300 kids in my class, so I'm not going to score those. Toss them out, print something back. Shelby Traynor: When the students received their test results, what they got was an identical response with statements like, you need people to like and admire you, or you have a tendency to be critical of yourself. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: And so they read this generic description of themselves, and then they had to rate how much they felt it applied to them. And they'd say like, yeah, that's totally me. Shelby Traynor: How'd you know that? Susan would score these results, eventually revealing to the students it was all a fallacy. And look how many of you fell for it. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: So we would give them back the feedback and say, look how easily you were suckered. I didn't say suckered, probably, but drawn into this explanation that had nothing to do with you because it seemed real. I mean, I felt a little bit bad, like we fooled you, but again, it's for science. Shelby Traynor: In order to sucker the students, there did need to be some sense of legitimacy to the test. It was done in a classroom, they filled out intimate information about themselves, which is kind of how it feels to fill in a form before it spits out your astrological birth chart. You've got to dig out your birth certificate or ring your mum to ask what time of day exactly you were born. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: The premise is you take a test, it seems legitimate. The test spits back feedback that seems to fit. And you say, oh yeah, that's me. And the way it works is the feedback in and of itself has some internal contradictions. You're a little of this, you're a lot of that. Sometimes you feel this way, but sometimes you feel the other way. Sometimes you feel like you fit in. Sometimes you feel like nobody likes you. I mean, who wouldn't agree to that? Shelby Traynor: So, Sana, now we know what's happening psychologically. I want to test this out with your horoscope today and see how you feel about it. Sana Qadar: Okay, so my horoscope that's going to tell me how today is going to go for me? Shelby Traynor: Yeah, exactly. Sana Qadar: All right, let me open it up. Okay, July 7th, 2025. You may feel like someone caught in a tornado, Sagittarius. Things are whirling around you and everything seems out of control. Don't get stressed out. There's nothing you can do about it. Allow the storm to do what it will. You will only get hurt if you try to stop it. Accept things you have no control over. The storm will settle down soon. Well, that is perfectly vague and nice enough, I guess. It gives me a hopeful message. Things will settle down. I don't know. Shelby Traynor: Yeah, but it's all about stress, which I feel like anybody could relate to, really. Sana Qadar: Yeah, who's not stressed? Shelby Traynor: Yeah. I guess one of the issues, though, with horoscopes is they do look forward. They tell you, here's how your day is going to go. Or if you get a broader reading, here's how your month is going to go, your year, your life. And so this is where something else sets in. Confirmation bias. It's the tendency to seek out and fixate on things that fit our existing beliefs. If you believe there's a storm coming, then you're going to be on high alert. The overwhelming, stressful parts of your day are the things that might end up standing out. Sana Qadar: And I will say this horoscope says the storm will settle down soon, which is, there's no timeline there. I just have to trust it will. And of course, at some point it will. No one's stressed forever, right? Shelby Traynor: Yeah, I guess. And you're going to hold on to that little glimpse of hope, aren't you? Sana Qadar: Exactly. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: There's no way this is valid. Shelby Traynor: Because of confirmation bias, you might then look back at your day and think, whoa, that horoscope was really accurate. And so tomorrow you read your horoscope again, this time armed with the supposed evidence from yesterday, you might take it more seriously. You might even change your behavior based on its advice. And this doesn't just apply to your daily horoscope either. It applies to people too. For example, you've probably had this interaction before. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: After the fact, you say, oh, I knew that all along. Of course you were a Leo. I mean, this totally fits with being a Leo. Shelby Traynor: Of course it is a spectrum. Some people are aware of their star sign and don't pay much attention beyond that. But for others, star signs might determine who they choose to be friends with or who they date. It's pretty common these days to have your star sign on your dating profile alongside your age and your height. There is a study from 2020 that looked into this so-called astrological compatibility between couples. Researchers looked at data on married couples in Sweden between 1968 and 2001, and they failed to find any evidence that people with compatible star signs were less likely to get divorced. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: You know, people believing lies is really what it turns out for. I mean, nobody wants to be a sucker on purpose, but people are inadvertent suckers when they believe in something that has no truth on the face of it or even in any way, shape or form. Shelby Traynor: It is worth acknowledging, though, that while this might seem either like a bit of fun or ridiculous, depending on your views on astrology, it does have deep roots in history and culture, stretching all the way back to Mesopotamia. It arose side by side with sciences we don't dispute, like astronomy, similar to alchemy's journey alongside chemistry. It was a way of making sense of the world and remains so for many people. But Professor Krauss-Whitbourne takes issue when money gets involved. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: That's one problem is just the whole industry that's based on this and has for hundreds of years. It's just irritating that people make money off of this fake information they provide to people. So we need to train people, don't fall for this stuff. You can if you want, if you feel like it. But I felt I really wanted to get that point out there that there's no way these generic statements about you could have anything to do with who you are as a person. Shelby Traynor: When it comes to personality, it's much more complicated than your birth chart. Ironically, though, researchers from Lund University, again in Sweden, did try to find out whether certain personality traits predicted a belief in astrology. Belief was associated with a higher narcissism score as well as a higher agreeableness score, while people with a higher level of intelligence had a lower belief in astrology. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: I mean, the number of people who say not just I read my horoscope, it's you're this way because you are, in my case, Sagittarius or a Leo. And just that's it. OK, we've now said this is you because you were born under the cusp, whatever that means, you know, in between two astrological signs. Shelby Traynor: While it can be a form of introspection, Professor Krauss-Whitbourne says it isn't the safest or the most rewarding path you can take. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: If you want to learn about yourself, which I think is an admirable goal, the way to do it is to find a reputable way to get that information. Sana Qadar: You're listening to All in the Mind. I'm Sana Qadar and I'm joined by reporter Shelby Traynor. Shelby, you kind of believe in astrology. How do you feel about being called a narcissist with low intelligence? Shelby Traynor: Not great. I did read the paper. I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt and I sort of understand the reasoning. So this is narcissistic traits. This isn't full blown narcissism, which is a slight comfort. And the researchers did say it might have something to do with a self-centered worldview. So like my personality and the way my life goes is determined by the stars. It kind of implies the universe cares about me personally, which is very flattering. I don't actually think it does. When I say I believe, I don't believe astrology is like a testable, verifiable science. I believe just enough in like the vibe of it to have a little fun without taking anything too seriously. And that applies to divination and the occult in general. So when I was reading that study, I was sort of like cracking my knuckles, stretching out, getting ready to make a bit of a counter argument. Sana Qadar: OK. Shelby Traynor: What I want to put on the table is something called an N of one experiment. That's a study with just one participant. Sana Qadar: Who's the one participant? Shelby Traynor: It's me. Sana Qadar: OK. Yeah (both laugh). What are you going to do? Shelby Traynor: Well, I've already done it. So Susan mentioned, if you want to learn about yourself, don't go to an astrologer or a psychic reader. Don't turn to tea leaves or cards. Go find a reputable person. See a psychologist or a psychotherapist, which is generally great advice. So I've had the same psychologist for years. She's amazing. Accredited. Love her. Wouldn't trade her for a pack of tarot cards at all. But I love tarot cards. Sana Qadar: Do you? Shelby Traynor: Yeah, I do. I have four decks and I've been reading tarot for the entirety of my 20s. I found it's a great way to reflect on things and set goals. But that's my experience. Sana Qadar: And why do tarot for those things as opposed to, I don't know, journaling? Shelby Traynor: Well, I do both (both laugh). I'm a glutton for self-reflection.I love it. But that is just my experience. I know that N of one experiments are far from ideal. So I wanted to get someone else's perspective. Ryan Findlay: Yeah. So my name's Ryan Finlay and I'm a practicing psychotherapist. I also practice tarot as well. Shelby Traynor: Ryan's day job is traditional psychotherapy. He doesn't typically bring tarot into that space. You might think tarot readers are fortune tellers. They consult cards and tell you you're going to meet a dark, handsome stranger or come into some money. But most tarot readers won't tell you what is going to happen. For the most part, they'll get you to reflect on your past, what it means for the present, and how that might apply in the future. Ryan Findlay: Historically, tarot was a card game. And then over the years, over the centuries, actually, since the 1500s, it's just gained more and more traction in terms of being used to help people find clarity. I think there's a misconception out there that it's purely based on fortune telling. And that's really not how I use it. I'm very much about bringing it into the present moment, what's here right now. So I'm really much more about using it rather than sort of a psychic prediction, more as an intuitive, let's find out what's happening right now and unpack that. Shelby Traynor: In that way, Ryan says tarot can overlap with his therapeutic work. Ryan Findlay: If you haven't really had experience with that version of tarot, then, yeah, of course, you can think of it as just how cartoons and movies and everything portray it as just a more fortune teller kind of thing, which, yeah, that archetype's been sort of bashed around a lot for a long time. But I think it's evolving. I think in this generation of people who have more access to the Internet and different ways of using these tools, I think there's a nice movement of, yeah, looking at it as another form of self-inquiry. Shelby Traynor: We have entered a new era of tarot. There are card readers all over TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. They usually tell you if you've stumbled across their video, it means it was meant for you. It's a powerful draw. Youtube clips: Hi there, welcome to your tarot readings for July and Cancer season... OK, we've got lovers on each got the tower on each side. I feel like you're more connecting with this person coming for today's reading, we have your one last message that you're meant to receive before you start your new life. Shelby Traynor: If you're not seeking some kind of message from the great beyond, if you're not feeling particularly introspective, you just scroll past. But if you are, then in many ways you're deciding to suspend disbelief and you're primed to make meaning from whatever you hear. That's one of the criticisms, that if you want it to mean something, it will. Ryan Findlay: And it's like, well, yeah, but we're meaning making machines. That's what we do. So why not draw upon this vast collection of beautiful symbols and instilled wisdom to make meaning out of what's going on for yourself? Shelby Traynor: OK, so Sana, I've brought one of my tarot decks into the studio and I want you to have a little look. Sana Qadar: OK, I'm intrigued. I've never actually looked at a tarot deck before, I don't think. Shelby Traynor: Nice. So there are 78 cards. There's the major arcana and the minor arcana. Sana Qadar: What is that? Shelby Traynor: So the major arcana, it kind of tells this overarching story from the first card, the Fool, all the way to the last card, the World. And it's kind of this journey the Fool goes on to like learning. Sana Qadar: The Full and the World? Shelby Traynor: The Fool. Sana Qadar: Oh, the Fool rather. And the World. Got you. Shelby Traynor: Yes. Then you've got the minor arcana. That's more like your traditional deck of playing cards that you'd be familiar with. It's split into four suits. You've got swords, cups, pentacles and wands. And like an ordinary deck of cards, these go from ace to ten, then the page, knight, queen and king. And all of these cards, all 78, have descriptions attached to them. They have different meanings. So I might get you to pull a card and we'll do a little reading. Sana Qadar: Okay, from anywhere on the deck? Shelby Traynor: Anywhere on the deck. Anywhere you're feeling drawn to. Sana Qadar: I'm slightly terrified of this. Okay. I'm drawn to this card. The Wheel of Fortune. Shelby Traynor: Ooh, that's a nice card. Sana Qadar: What does that mean? Shelby Traynor: So that's part of the major arcana. Let me look through my book. I don't know them off by heart. Wheel of Fortune. Destiny. Fortune. Success. Luck. Felicity. Sana Qadar: Oh hey, I like this. Yeah, this is a great card. Am I about to get rich? Shelby Traynor: Mmm, I think this is general enough that if you don't get rich, you won't blame the card. The Barnum effect might apply here. As I said, super, super general. There might also be some confirmation bias. If you win the lotto, you're going to say the card had predicted it. Sana Qadar: You know, I'm sad to admit, I do on occasion, more frequently than I should, buy a lotto ticket. So now I will after pulling this card (both laugh). Shelby Traynor: Exactly. So is that experience altogether harmful? In the right circumstances, Ryan says pulling a card like this can be just another tool for self-reflection. Ryan Findlay: From memory, there's 22 major arcana. So they're really big containers. If we look at an archetype, it's just a big container full of symbolism and meaning. Carl Jung was an eminent therapist back in the day, and yeah, his work looking into symbolism and the collective unconscious, that really maps beautifully with how I like to do tarot and how I like to do therapy as well, which is just looking more at, I don't know, the greater energies in life, not so much just getting caught up in the personal struggle. Getting out of that more personal problem-solving space into a more trans-personal space. Shelby Traynor: In psychology, trans-personal means beyond the self or beyond the bounds of the ego. Ryan Findlay: Yeah, just tune in. Just like, oh, what do I want to know? And I think, I guess the important kind of energetic part of that for me is opening up to vulnerability of like, oh, I don't really know what's going on. That actual step of going, oh, I actually want to seek some support here from outside of my own mind. I think that's, yeah, sort of the ritual for me is just really opening up to the cards themselves. Sana Qadar: So it sounds like they're almost kind of conversation starters. Shelby Traynor: Yeah, 78 of them. Ryan Findlay: So an example for that is like the five of cups. It's like asking me to just really tune in to grief or disappointment. And then also to let gratitude come in. So I sort of just pull them ad hoc. Now and again, I'll do a bigger reading to get a bit of a map or an overview, which is really quite special. Shelby Traynor: There's often ritual involved in tarot readings, maybe some meditation beforehand or a breathing exercise. Before pulling a card, people are usually encouraged to ask a question like, what do I need to know right now? There's plenty of evidence that ritualistic behavior can help us ease anxiety and regulate our emotions. But of course, it's not always appropriate to turn to tarot cards. Ryan had to figure out that balance when he first started practicing in his early 20s. Ryan Findlay: I just had a lot of, I guess, decision anxiety at that age. So tarot really helped me tune into my own intuition. Probably used a little bit too much. I used it every day at that point. So I was a little bit of a crutch. But yeah, it just helped me navigate my way through my early 20s, which were, you know, full of anxiety and doubt and all those sort of things. Shelby Traynor: It was later that Ryan became a psychotherapist. And even later that he decided to combine the two in private sessions. While he says therapy and tarot overlap in a lot of ways, there are many situations where tarot isn't the way to go. Ryan Findlay: Definitely someone with a lot of mental health diagnoses. So where they're feeling really, really chaotic in their life and they actually just need some grounding and some human connection. Shelby Traynor: The cards aren't where you turn mid-breakdown or when your emotions are heightened. Ryan Findlay: So I'm really big on making sure that if we are making meaning and we are connecting to new ideas and new associations, that it's actually feeling nurturing to us and grounding for us and making us feel more solid in ourselves. Shelby Traynor: And so Ryan recommends some questions to ask yourself before doing a reading. Ryan Findlay: How solid do you feel right now? And are you in your head already too much? Or just searching too much for some kind of clarity when really you actually just need some human connection to rest and reset. There's a thing called metacognition, which is like that ability to sort of zoom out and really watch yourself. And if you've lost that, like your frontal lobes go on and you're too dysregulated, then I don't think tarot is indicated. Shelby Traynor: But when he does use it, Ryan says tarot can bring something to sessions that he doesn't experience through traditional methods. The deck is almost like a third person in the room. Ryan Findlay: It brings a different energy. So I've been working as a counselor psychotherapist for about eight years now. And so I've got that established in me and I'm really quite familiar with that terrain or that landscape of therapeutic work. But when I do tarot with people, it sort of brings in this other energy, this almost third witness. Shelby Traynor: He finds it can even help drive home a message that maybe a client has been resistant to or defensive of. Ryan Findlay: Where they maybe have some self-sabotage or some built up defenses, the cards are really good at just gently spotting that and helping people see their blind spots. And it sort of takes me out of the equation a bit more because I'm like, well, it's what's coming up. Shelby Traynor: Suffice to say, there's no randomized controlled trial on the effectiveness of tarot alongside traditional therapy. And because it's a combination of cards giving you a reading and you interpreting that reading however you like, there is a risk involved. Ryan experienced this when he first got into tarot. Ryan Findlay: I think in those early days I was probably drawing upon the meanings and the cards too much. And I was just looking for answers, looking for answers, looking for confirmation, validation. Whereas now they just help me access parts within myself that I've already cultivated and developed. But I try to just use them intuitively rather than reactively. Shelby Traynor: But at the risk of over intellectualizing tarot readings, I should say that tarot can be as woo-woo as some people criticize it to be. Readings can feel meaningful beyond probability. Certain cards can keep coming up. A message can feel particularly hard hitting, sometimes brutally honest. And it feels inexplicable, like the universe really is trying to send you a message. Ryan Findlay: I'm more and more convinced every time I just get these amazing things happen and cards coming out that I'm just like, wow, you really are trying to say something to me. Because I've got a skeptic too, you know, I've got a science background as well. So I've always got that part of me, that skeptic part. And throughout the years, tarot has just proven to me over and over again how valuable and useful and intriguing and entertaining it is as well. Shelby Traynor: You can believe the universe is sending you a message, or you can believe that humans are really good at recognizing patterns and making connections. In fact, it's a basic survival skill. Last time I ate this plant, I got sick. Last time I heard this noise, it was a snake. There's a word for our tendency to perceive meaningful connections between unrelated things, apophenia. This skill humans have is why we're able to see constellations or detect images in the loose leaves at the bottom of a teacup. Apophenia can be an asset or it can be misleading, depending on the person and the circumstance. Here's Professor Krauss Whitbourne again. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: They just need to preserve their worldview or astronomical view, astrological view, I should say. I don't know. I mean, I suppose it is a way of imposing order onto chaos. People are always looking for that. It's just the wrong form of order because chaos is sometimes chaos. And sometimes chaos has a lot to do with your actual personality, your actual life, your actual upbringing, all of the factors that make us who we are and what make us tick. Shelby Traynor: I did ask her if she thought there could be any case in which horoscopes or other forms of divination might be harmless, maybe even a little beneficial. Professor Susan Krauss Whitbourne: I guess. If you're being totally tongue in cheek about it, but then why not actually spend your time reflecting on something real? Shelby Traynor: Ouch. But I guess for me, tarot cards at least are real. As in, I can shuffle them, I can pull them, I can see them laid out in front of me. And making meaning through them has been formative. Readings have helped me to accept things I've been resisting. They've given me confidence in decisions I have already made. And at the very least, they've been a comforting ritual, a method of inquiry and a form of self-care. Ryan Findlay: I do see it as like a candle in the dark. Like often if I'm just feeling really confused or stuck or I'm sort of swelling, I just really want to just see what the universe wants to tell me essentially. And that really brings a lot of solace because it paints a picture. And I'm quite a visual person, so it just immediately I get to see what's going on in my internal psyche out in the world, externalized. And that's something in therapy that we're really trying to help people do is externalize what's going on inside. And that does calm the nervous system. So for me over the years, it's just brought a lot of solace and a lot of comfort. And really made me who I am actually because each tarot card has so much wisdom in it. And so rather than just moving through the motions of life and waiting for the challenging emotions to disappear or whatever, I'm actually making myself stronger through those experiences using tarot. So just supportive, like just to get this big vision of what's possible for myself. Sana Qadar: That was Ryan Findlay. And earlier you heard from Susan Krauss Whitburn, Professor Emerita of Psychological and Brain Sciences at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. This episode was reported and produced by Shelby Traynor. You can stick around after the credits to hear Shelby do my tarot reading if you really want to. A warning, it does get a little woo-woo. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr and senior producer James Bullen and sound engineer Simon Branthwaite. I'm Sana Qadar. Thank you for listening. I'll catch you next time. Sana Qadar: Okay, read my tarot. Shelby Traynor: Oh my goodness. Sana Qadar: Okay, do I shuffle? Shelby Traynor: Okay, do you want to hear my ritual? Sana Qadar: Yeah. Shelby Traynor: I knock it. Sana Qadar: Oh yeah? Two times? Shelby Traynor: (Both laughing) Oh my god. I'm sorry I sound insane. Sana Qadar: (still laughing) You're like the weirdest science reporter ever, but keep going. Shelby Traynor: I knock the deck. It's to get the energy from the last person who read it out. No, no, no, you got to knock it yourself. Sana Qadar: Oh, I have to knock it. Okay. Sana Qadar: All right. Energy out. Shelby Traynor: And so I hold it to my chest. I do some breathing and I ask a question. Usually the question I ask is what do I need to know right now? And then I start shuffling and I just shuffle until I feel done. Okay, I feel then I turn three cards. Just one, two, three. Sana Qadar: From anywhere in the pile? Shelby Traynor: No, from the top. Sana Qadar: Top, okay. Okay. Shelby Traynor: Okay. You've got your past, present and future. So past will be your left. Can you tell me what your past says? Sana Qadar: Yeah, it's a man in a red robe and green kind of scarf thing with his back towards me. He's holding a long stick thing and there's three long stick things coming out of the ground in total. Shelby Traynor: Three of ones. There we go. A calm, stately figure with his back turned looking from a cliff's edge at ships passing over the sea. Three staves are planted in the ground and he leans slightly on one of them. He symbolizes established strength, enterprise, effort, trade, discovery, commerce. Those are his ships bearing his merchandise which are sailing over the sea. Sana Qadar: What's that supposed to tell me about my past? Shelby Traynor: To me it says something about your ships coming in. As in you've put in the work and you're watching at the horizon as those ships come in. Sana Qadar: So like the fruits of my labor. Shelby Traynor: Yeah. Sana Qadar: Coming home to roost. These are mixed metaphors happening (laughing). Shelby Traynor: There are many mixed metaphors. Yeah. All right, what's the next one? Sana Qadar: Okay, the next one is a guy with like a nail and anvil like chiseling pentagrams into some discs. Shelby Traynor: Eight of pentacles. Let's go. An artist in stone at work. Work, employment, commission, skill in craft and business. That's your present. Sana Qadar: Okay, that's what I'm doing on the show. Shelby Traynor: There's a lot of work going on. Do you work a lot? Sana Qadar: I feel pretty burnt out at this point in my life (laughs). Shelby Traynor: Okay, you work a lot. That's the vibe I'm getting. What about your future? Sana Qadar: I wake up in the middle of the night thinking of scripts. I do work a lot (both laugh). Shelby Traynor: Your future, is the holiday in your future? Well, I've got the knight of wands. So he looks pretty free. Sana Qadar: He's coming to save me. Shelby Traynor: He is shown as if upon a journey armed with a short wand and although mailed. I don't know what that means. Oh, he's got chain mail on. Yeah. He's not on a warlike errand though. He's passing mounds or pyramids. Yes. Oh, oh my goodness. Sana Qadar: What? Shelby Traynor: Departure, absence, flight, immigration. Sana Qadar: Oh my God, that's actually kind of uncanny. Shelby Traynor: You're about to go and leave, aren't you? Sana Qadar: I'm about to go and leave. That's why you're doing the episode. Shelby Traynor: Change of residence, it says. Sana Qadar: Well, I've been thinking more and more about whether I want to go back to Canada for a couple of years in a few years time. Like it's really heavily on my mind, Canada. Shelby Traynor: See, a lot of people could relate to that reading. Sana Qadar: Yeah. I mean, who isn't burnt out also? Shelby Traynor: But none of this is new to you as well. Sana Qadar: What do you mean? Shelby Traynor: Well, you've been thinking about this stuff. But sometimes the tarot reading is just a chance to actually make the space to think about it. Like you actually sit down. Sana Qadar: And to bring like these disparate ideas in my head together in one single narrative. And a narrative is very seductive, obviously. Shelby Traynor: But also it's really nice having something outside of yourself to tell you something you kind of have an inkling about. Sana Qadar: Yeah. I have worked really hard. I am tired. I do want a break. Shelby Traynor: (both laughing) And all you needed was a pack of tarot cards.
ABC News
17-05-2025
- Entertainment
- ABC News
Why do we love collecting?
Sana Qadar: What do vintage teaspoons, coins, plush toys, handbags, stamps and comic books all have in common? Certain people, for whatever reason, love to collect them. What's the deal with this drive to collect? What about our psychology makes it appealing? Or is it all just clever marketing? Associate Professor Louise Grimmer: Across the board, retailers, manufacturers definitely know that as humans many of us have the desire to collect. Sana Qadar: And what separates collecting from hoarding? Professor Nick Neave: People often conflate hoarding with collecting, but there is quite a clear difference. Sana Qadar: I'm Sana Qadar, this is All in the Mind, and today producer Rose Kerr joins us to explain our love of collecting. Sana Qadar: Hi Rose. Rose Kerr: Hi Sana, I have been dying to ask you, are you a collector? Sana Qadar: Um, no, not as an adult, I'm trying to think. I don't know, I don't really collect anything now. As a kid, you know, I was into collecting stickers and Kinder Surprise toys, weirdly, was a big collecting thing of mine. So I had a bookshelf full of like Kinder Surprise toys in my room. Rose Kerr: Oh, that's so sweet. That is an absolutely classic kids collection. Sana Qadar: What about you? Rose Kerr: Look, I definitely had similar collections as a child, but as an adult, I do have a small collection of Sonny Angels, if you've ever heard of them. Sana Qadar: No, what's that? Rose Kerr: It's like a Japanese figurine, it's about 10 centimetres tall, looks like a little baby angel wearing cutesy hats, so things like fruit or animals. Sana Qadar: Okay, how did you get into collecting that of all things? Rose Kerr: Well, it's a bit of a funny story because I was given one of these figurines about 10 years ago by a family member. And for the last 10 years, it's just sat on my shelf and people would visit my house and they'd be like, oh, that's cute, but a little bit weird that you have this little baby angel. But flash forward 10 years later and Sonny Angels are hugely popular online and in stores. I noticed it online on TikTok and Instagram, people were making unboxing videos. There's this whole resale market. Sana Qadar: What? Okay, so why do people like collecting? What is it about having many of the same object that appeals? Rose Kerr: I have been obsessed with this question for quite some time now. So I thought the best way to start investigating was to talk to a collector. Sam Todd: I wish you guys could see the interview right now because Labubu is here in the room. She is wearing the headphones and she's also wearing a tutu. Rose Kerr: Meet Sam Todd, a content creator based in Brisbane. Sam Todd: I make content about shopping, fashion, travel and shopping and fashion while travelling. Rose Kerr: She's a keen collector of a few things, but her most prized collectible is Labubu, the little elf Sam has brought into the studio. If you've never seen or heard of Labubu before, that is completely understandable. They're still somewhat niche. So here's a description of what they look like. Imagine a plush toy attached to a key chain just shy of 20 centimetres tall. It's got pastel coloured fur, rabbit like ears and a plastic vinyl face with a big toothy grin. In some ways, they're similar to the figurines I collect. They tap into cutesy nostalgia resembling kids toys but marketed towards adults. And you're most likely to spot a Labubu attached to someone's handbag or backpack. Sam's a big fan and she's built an online community that follow her quest to collect them. Sam Todd: (Video audio) I am currently in possession of the hardest to get items in the whole entire world right now, a Labubu V3... Rose Kerr: And these critters have exploded in popularity. That's in part down to their fashion status, worn by the likes of Rihanna, Dua Lipa and Blackpink's Lisa, along with plenty of content creators like Sam. And it's generating a lot of competition to buy them. How far have you gone for a collectible? Sam Todd: Well, I would say we've been talking a lot about Miss Labubu and she has been the hardest one to find. I have gone to so many countries trying to find her. It's almost impossible in Australia. I've gone to Japan, I've gone to America, Paris, London. I have been everywhere and most of my attempts are not success stories. Rose Kerr: But Sam did have one big win. Sam Todd: So the best success story that I've ever had is actually a week-long journey. So very fortunately for me and motivatingly, there is a Pop Mart vending machine around the corner from my gym. So it would motivate me to go to the gym every morning because I knew afterwards I could check the vending machine and see if there is a Labubu in there. And historically there is never a Labubu in there because the second they get restocked, someone takes them all. Rose Kerr: Sam didn't give up. Every day she would go to the gym and check the vending machine for something to add to her collection. Sam Todd: On the seventh day, I arrived at the exact moment that the man who works for Pop Mart was there restocking it. And he had a trolley full of Labubus and he said that I needed to wait for 30 minutes while he restocked it. And I went and I sat far away but then I kept seeing people walk past and I was like, what if they get first in line? Rose Kerr: Finally, her patience paid off. Sam Todd: I was able to be first in line and I got six Labubus (both laugh). Don't tell anyone I got that many. And it was the best day of my life. So I had to walk through the shopping mall holding all these boxes in my arms. And I was like, you know what? This is not a walk of shame. This is a walk of pride. I'd like everybody to see that this time I won. Rose Kerr: The world has seen plenty of collecting crazes. From Pokemon. News archive: Hundreds are queuing for the latest Pokemon game cartridges. Rose Kerr: To sports collecting cards. News archive: Swap meets. Buyer's guides. A whole new language. And sometimes big money. This card is worth $600. Rose Kerr: Even stamps. News archive: Ray, who's now 64, has been collecting stamps since he was nine years old. Rose Kerr: All of this makes me wonder, why do humans like collecting? Professor Nick Neave: Hi, I'm Professor Nick Neve. I'm a psychologist at Northumbria University in the UK. Rose Kerr: Nick says research about collecting is somewhat limited. But we do know a bit about the underlying motivations for the hobby thanks to observations from researchers back in the 90s. Professor Nick Neave: There's been a little bit of work done. There was one survey done in the 90s. A guy called Formanek did a survey of 167 people who collected. And they kind of found five key things which underlie the behaviours. I mean, certainly the first one, the most important, seems to be meanings in relation to the self. You know, your collection is an indication of you. It's an extension of your personality. It brings pleasure. It gives self-fulfilment. It gives you a challenge. You know, there's something to aim for. And it's very, very strongly linked with self-esteem, with positive self-esteem. Rose Kerr: The second motivation is all about a sense of community. Professor Nick Neave: Collectors are very sociable. You form friendship bonds. You share knowledge. You exchange knowledge. You barter. You compete. You know, and it's often there's a little element of competition in there, but it's often a very friendly one. You know, certainly in the old days, people would have to go to collectors' forums. You know, you'd go to an antique and collectors' fair at your local sports centre and you'd meet the same people and you'd share ideas and you'd kind of trade things and whatever. Nowadays, of course, you can go online. You can really be plugged into what's going on all around the world, which is incredibly fascinating. Rose Kerr: People may also be drawn to the financial element. Professor Nick Neave: They may collect wine or whiskey or art or stamps as a possible investment for the future, but these people tend to be quite rare. Most people collect things out of the sheer pleasure. You know, they'll find an object. They'll get very interested in that object. They'll want to know about the kind of history of that object. And there's another element as well, is that some people seem to collect things as a mean of preserving objects and restoring them. You know, they've got a very strong passion for history. They're very sentimental. They kind of have this social duty. And the final thing, really, is that it is addictive. It is exciting to find that last element in your collection. So it is obsessive, it is addictive, but it's pleasurable. Rose Kerr: We've been talking about adult collectors, but collecting as a hobby tends to start in childhood. Professor Nick Neave: And we know, for example, that one of the key elements is that a person will have what's called a seed object. So, for example, a friend or a relative might give you something as a gift. Your granny might give you a little figurine of a fox. And then people get these very strong emotional connections to that because it's been given to them by a loved person. And so they'll then have a real passion then for collecting figurines of foxes. And that might then diversify into figurines of animals or something like that. Rose Kerr: And even as kids, collecting is very social. Sometimes a passion for collecting might come about because of what's trendy on the playground. Think about what was popular when you were a kid. Professor Nick Neave: There are fashions. So at the minute, I think lots of people are collecting jelly cats. That's a big thing. When my daughter was little, there was a real kind of thing in the school for collecting rocks and fossils. You see these kind of crazes, wax and wane. Rose Kerr: But our interest in collecting tends to fade away when we're teenagers. Professor Nick Neave: People get interested in other things, of course, and then as adults, people still remain really quite serious collectors. Rose Kerr: One of the reasons why people get back into collecting as an adult is because usually you have more money. You might also be influenced by other people, like online groups or trends. Professor Nick Neave: You've then got access to a community of people who are incredibly knowledgeable and passionate all around the world. And that can mean that you diversify into collecting different things. One thing is interesting is that while men and women tend to be collectors, there seems to be no big difference in the kind of figures for that. They do tend to collect different things. So men seem to be drawn towards more kind of mechanically type related things. So automobile, military kind of trade numbers, airplane spotting. They might be collecting beer, drinking related things, beer mugs, things like that. Women tend to go for more things like figurines or for shoes or for clothing or for jewelry, items with a more kind of an emotional significance. Rose Kerr: It's really interesting because sometimes when I explain these kinds of items to people who've never heard of them, they almost sound like kids toys, right? So what do you think attracts people like yourself, adults, to these kind of like cutesy, almost childish, nostalgic collectibles? Sam Todd: Well, I think it really comes back to what you liked as a kid, because, you know, we all have certain things that we really loved when we were a kid. Like for me, I love Sylvanian families. Rose Kerr: These are little animal figurines dressed up in clothes. And although Sam happily collects them now, there was a moment when she had no interest in them. Sam Todd: When you become a teenager, you're like, oh, that's so uncool. I want to be grown up. I sell all of my things at the garage sale. What I would give to get the Sylvanian families that I sold for 50 cents at the garage sale back. But once you become an adult and more accepting and understanding of yourself, I think you reintroduce the things that you've always loved all along back into your life. And so for me, that's dolls and collectibles. I was always that girl and now I am accepting that that is who I am, if that makes sense. Rose Kerr: While thinking about collecting as a hobby for this episode, I started to wonder about the difference between collecting and hoarding. Thankfully, Professor Nick Neve, who you've been hearing from, is also the director of the hoarding research group at Northumbria University. I asked him what the difference is between hoarding and collecting. Professor Nick Neave: Yeah, that's a very interesting question. People often conflate hoarding with collecting, but there is quite a clear difference. Hoarding is where people accumulate a large number of kind of unrelated items. They are acquired, they're kind of often free or very cheap to acquire. There's no specific reason for the acquisition. People kind of store them all around the house. Higgledy-piggledy. People don't really know what they've got and how they've got it. It's the getting of something which seems to be important. And then people kind of forget all about it. Collecting is very, very different. It's a very focused way of acquiring a specific set of unique items. And these items are typically non-utilitarian. You don't use them for anything. And very importantly, there's an end point. There's an end goal. So there's a finite collection of these things which you could possibly get. So if you were, for example, collecting train numbers in a certain country, there's only a certain number of trains that you could possibly spot. So you would go out and you would collect them. You would record them. You would have a very clear idea of what you'd got, how you'd got it, when you'd got it. You would have them stored in some way in a little book. So it's much more a very focused endeavour. There are some people, though, where collections can kind of merge. People can collect more things, one or more things, and this can turn into what looks like a hoard. But technically the two things are very different. Rose Kerr: Is there a definition for collecting? Because sometimes I think, you know, to a collector their collection is very special, but to an outsider it just seems like a lot of things. Is there a point where something becomes a collection or someone is called a collector? Professor Nick Neave: It is interesting because when people have tried to ask these questions, well, actually people haven't really. There's still an awful lot that we don't know about collecting and why it starts and how it starts. There was a lot of research done kind of in the 80s and the 90s, and people were looking at collecting really from a kind of alibrarians doing a lot of research, economists doing a lot of research. They were looking at kind of art collectors and people who collected these incredibly expensive things, which is not normal. Most people collect things which aren't really that expensive. And, you know, there's one of the striking questions is, well, if I want to go and measure hoarding behaviours in people, I've got four or five very good questionnaires which enable me to do that, and people can fill them in, and then you can compare between different countries and different people. With collecting, no such questionnaire exists. I mean, it's interesting, we've got an internship student right now who's developing that, and then we're trying to put together a questionnaire to measure it properly so that we can ask these rather more interesting questions about when it starts, when it ends, what's the differences between people, what's the difference between groups of people, say, for example. Rose Kerr: Nick's also interested in the intersection between hoarders and collectors. It's not something he's got any data on yet, but it's an area he wants to explore. Professor Nick Neave: This group in London speculated that people, there might be some people that have elements of both, and these are people who start off as a collector, they collect one thing, but they get distracted, they get sidetracked, they go, oh, I'll get another thing, and suddenly they end up with what looks much more like a hoard, and it takes over their life, and it's cluttered, and then they also start to get these feelings of shame and stigma because they realise that things have gone too far. But exactly what differentiates those people from collectors and from hoarders is something which we don't yet fully understand. What is it about a collector that might turn them into a hoarder, or vice versa? We simply don't know. But as I've said, if we can develop these questionnaires to tap into collecting, then we might be in the early stages of trying to find out. Sana Qadar: You're listening to All In The Mind. I'm Sana Qadar. So, we've heard that collecting usually starts in childhood, and then during adolescence people generally fall out of love with the hobby, because it's not really cool anymore. But lots of adults rediscover collecting, and this is what producer Rose Kerr has been investigating. And Rose, the cynic in me does wonder if collectibles are really just clever marketing? Rose Kerr: (Laughs) I definitely had the same thought. So, I reached out to Louise Grimmer. She's a marketing and retailing researcher interested in consumer behaviour and trends. Associate Professor Louise Grimmer: Hello, I'm Associate Professor Louise Grimmer from the Tasmanian School of Business and Economics at the University of Tasmania. Rose Kerr: How aware are marketers and product designers of the human love of collecting? Associate Professor Louise Grimmer: Oh yes, look, very, very aware. But I think back to when I was a child, and a lot of the food manufacturers were some of the first, I guess, to recognise the power of collecting. In breakfast cereals you would be able to collect a number of different items. If you think back to sort of the 50s, 60s, 70s as well, you would have collector cards for sports teams and movie star collector cards, cigarette cards. There's a real intention behind these collectible items that we see food manufacturers, toy manufacturers, supermarkets, et cetera, bringing out. And it's all about recognising the need that a lot of people have to collect and then really meeting that need by bringing out either things that become trendy to collect or through promotions with things like blind bag collecting. But there's no doubt that across the board retailers, manufacturers, definitely know that as humans many of us have the desire to collect and that's why we see so many toys really aimed a lot of the time at adults and they're all about collecting in a series and then there'll be another series that comes out that has to be collected. It's completely intentional, absolutely. Rose Kerr: There's a bit of a trend in collectibles at the moment with blind bags. You might have also heard them referred to as surprise packs or blind boxes. Basically, you buy a toy that's in some kind of sealed package and what's inside is a mystery to you. Sonny Angels, my favourite collectible, comes in one, as well as Sam's fave, Labubu. Associate Professor Louise Grimmer: I find blind bags absolutely fascinating. Listeners will be familiar with them because they're pretty ubiquitous and you see them at the checkout often. They are often bought out by toy manufacturers, but most of these are relatively cheap and they really tap into a few different trends that we see in consumer behaviour. One is around the need to collect the entire series and then you've got the little bit of dopamine rush when you're opening the blind bag because you don't know what you're going to get. Then, of course, you've got this element of surprise. So you've got the pleasure of getting a reward with an element of surprise. That's very compelling and it's very addictive. Rose Kerr: Louise says this taps into some of the psychological mechanisms behind gambling, in particular, intermittent reinforcement. Associate Professor Louise Grimmer: So the reason intermittent reinforcement is so powerful is that you don't know what you're going to get. You know you're going to get something, but you might be getting something that you've already got five of. So that's what leads people to keep on purchasing these blind bags. Once you start collecting them, you're really going through some of these processes that can get you a bit addicted to them, I guess. That's certainly what manufacturers and retailers are very aware of, the consumer behaviour behind this phenomenal growth and profitability of blind bags. Rose Kerr: Do you find it has that kind of rush and do you feel like it's a little bit addictive? Sam Todd: Oh, absolutely. Because especially even if you lose and you don't get the one you wanted, then you're like, oh my God, now I have to go back and get another one immediately to rectify this situation. And then if you did get the one you wanted, you're like, oh my God, that's amazing. I should try again because I have such good luck. So you know what? I've got to give it to them. It's a fabulous marketing and sales tactic. They got me good. Rose Kerr: In Australia, there was one really popular blind bag collectible that you might remember. Associate Professor Louise Grimmer: The Little Shop Collectibles was possibly one of the most successful of these kinds of promotions that we've seen in Australia for quite some time. And basically it was that you spent a certain amount of money at the supermarket and you got a blind bag with a little collectible in it. Now the collectible was a very tiny, cute version of different branded, nationally branded products that are sold in the supermarket. So this is a beautiful sort of holistic promotion, I guess, because you've got well-known national brands paying money to be a part of this promotion. You've got the blind bag part of the promotion. And we saw that it actually really ended up appealing to a lot of adults. So whilst it was probably much more aimed at children, what we saw was it was so successful that it actually cut across different age groups. And there were lots of videos of people unboxing their blind bags, talking about their collections. There were swap days. It really was one of the most successful promotions we've seen. Rose Kerr: And when it comes to the power of a promotion like this one, Louise says marketers are hoping it'll hook you in for the longer term. Associate Professor Louise Grimmer: It's very hard to get people to swap brands, and that's what these blind bag promotions in supermarkets are doing. There's something in these cute little plastic things that people just couldn't get enough of, which is really quite shocking when we think about the drive for sustainability and recycling and repurposing and all those things. So it's a very complex thing, I think, that taps into lots of different consumer psychology. Sam Todd: I really liken the recent rise of collectibles to â€' have you heard of the lipstick effect before? Rose Kerr: No. Sam Todd: It originated in around like the 1990s when there was a recession. Research around the global financial crisis, and it was women buying lipsticks, and an enormous rise in sales of makeup and lipsticks because of the financial crisis. They couldn't afford to buy big things, but that's like a little treat that you can have that makes you feel good. I'm no economics professor, but I feel like the upturn in collectibles is a little bit like that. It's just bringing a little bit of joy into your everyday life in an achievable way. Rose Kerr: I put this idea to Louise. Associate Professor Louise Grimmer: There's no doubt that a lot of Australians are doing it pretty tough at the moment because the cost of living is, you know, it's pretty dire for a lot of people. We still want to treat ourselves, and so what happens is that we tend to cut back on more expensive purchases or big purchases, and we say, I really need a new washing machine or I really need a new fridge, but look, I really just can't afford it at the moment. But a lot of us still want to treat ourselves, and so what they'd sort of found historically, and I think this term was coined by Leonard Lauder. Rose Kerr: That's the former CEO of Estée Lauder. Associate Professor Louise Grimmer: Because during the 2001 recession, their sales in lipsticks rose substantially, and it's happened, I think it's happened earlier than that as well. What it really represents is that even though times are tough, female consumers particularly, they still want a little treat, and so something like a new lipstick is a little treat that you can afford. It makes you feel good. It doesn't have to be lipstick. You know, if you are a collector, you don't really want anything to get in the way of your, you know, adding to your collection, and so we find that if you are collecting small sort of reasonably priced things, people will still keep adding to their collection even when, you know, budgets are tight. Rose Kerr: Collecting can be a lot of fun. It can help you express yourself, and it might connect you with new people. But Associate Professor Louise Grimmer does have a little word of warning. Associate Professor Louise Grimmer: I guess just a sort of cautionary word is around thinking about are you collecting things because they really bring you joy and you actually really enjoy it, or are you collecting these things because they're in fashion at the moment or they're trendy or your friendship group is collecting these things and you're trying to sort of keep up and be part of it? It does pay to understand the way that marketing and promotion works, to understand how fear of missing out works, and if you really like something, that's totally great. But if it's just collecting for collecting's sake, then, you know, you could probably save your money. Rose Kerr: Do you feel proud of your collections? Sam Todd: Absolutely! I have had to hunt so hard around the world to get these Labubus. They are very proudly displayed in the background of my videos that I film at home. Each day I choose whatever one matches my outfit to take out with me. I kind of liken the Purse Pals to wearing a band T-shirt. Like, you know how you can immediately know a little bit about someone and what they're into when you see that they're wearing, I don't know, a Green Day T-shirt? So you can tell a little bit about someone by the band t-shirt that they have, which I really like. And I've always perceived fashion as that way. The way that I dress tells the world exactly who I am without me having to say anything. Rose Kerr: Do you see yourself ever feeling like you've got, yeah, everything that you need? Sam Todd: Well, maybe if these brands stopped releasing things (both laugh). It feels personally targeted towards me. Honestly, I'm a sucker and I'll admit it. Constantly new things are released and I'm like, oh my God, I love it. I am a marketer's dream. Sana Qadar: That's Brisbane-based content creator Sam Todd. You also heard from Professor Nick Neave from Northumbria University and Associate Professor Louise Grimmer from the University of Tasmania. This episode was reported and produced by Rose Kerr. Thanks for joining me, Rose. Rose Kerr: Thanks to you, Sana. Sana Qadar: And our Senior Producer is James Bullen. Our Sound Engineer this week was Micky Grossman. I'm Sana Qadar. I host and produce All in the Mind. Thank you for listening. I will catch you next time.
