De man die we kennen als Uncle Charlie

SBS Australia

17-07-2025

We leren Uncle Charlie kennen dankzij verhalen van zijn nicht Edie Wright en neven Neville D'Antoine, Douglas Clements en Charla Clements. Ook horen we van Josine Van Aggelen, een van de Nederlandse overlevenden die door oom Charlie werd gered.
Presentatie en productie: Paulien Roessink
NITV Radio-team: Kerri-Lee Barry en Ngaire Pakai
SBS Audio-team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford en Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn
Onze speciale dank gaat uit naar Pia Media voor het ter beschikking stellen van fragmenten uit hun documentaire. Volg deze podcast via de SBS Audio-app of via je favoriete podcastplayer. Paulien Roessink: This podcast is produced on the lands of the Cammeraygal People. We'd like to pay our respects to elders past and present and acknowledge the thousands of years of storytelling on this land. This episode contains references to war, and mentions and voices of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who have passed away. Josine van Aggelen: it was very brave because there was a lot of oil in the water and it was also burning. And later I heard that there were also sharks swimming - I'm glad I didn't know that. it was very brave of him, because there was a lot of oil on the water and it was also burning. And later I heard that there were also sharks swimming - I'm glad I didn't know that. Paulien Roessink: Josine van Aggelen was only six years old when she found herself in the middle of the Japanese air raid on Broome, in 1942. Josine van Aggelen: At that moment I didn't know who saved me, there were navy men everywhere, so I thought a navy man saved me. But I didn't see the person. What is special is that he was there to save us. I wouldn't be here without him. Documentary maker: One of the children who survived the raid, was a little girl. At that time she was 7 years old. Now, of course, we never know whether she would have been rescued by your brother, but that little girl is still alive in the Netherlands. So your brother Charles D'Antoine saved little Josine van Aggelen. Aunty Peggy: Would have been him, nobody else. Paulien Roessink: I'm Paulien Roessink, and this is 'Uncle Charlie: the invisible hero', a podcast from SBS Dutch and NITV Radio. Over three episodes I'll be speaking to historians, community members, survivors and family members about what it means to be recognised for heroism, to figure out why Uncle Charlie didn't get officially recognised by the Australian government. Today we're hearing from Charles D'Atoine's family. This is episode 2, The man we know as Uncle Charlie. Paulien Roessink: In 2015, Dutch Documentary makers Pia van der Molen and Michiel Praal covered the 1942 Broome attack from the Dutch perspective. In this short documentary they speak to Josine about her experience during the attack. At the time she didn't know who saved her. So, the documentary makers put a call out on a local radio station. And with the help of the local community, they were able to link the story to Uncle Charlie. Here's Pia speaking to Uncle Charlie's sister, Aunty Peggy – who passed away in 2024. Documentary maker: this is what she was when she was little… Aunty Peggy: Ahh goodness. Documentary maker: And I also have another picture, where she is now 81… Aunty Peggy: Oh hell. Well… Documentary maker: And she wants me to say, on her behalf, how grateful she is that she was rescued, although we never know she was rescued by your brother. Aunty Peggy: Well, he was the only one that, you know, swimming there, saving the people- the lady and the two. And as he was swimming, one of the women in the water was crying, they're calling out in Dutch. He didn't know what she was saying, and he kept swimming. Then he stopped, turned around went back to her. And told her to put his hat and put her hands on his shoulder. Paulien Roessink: Uncle Charlie's family have worked tirelessly to keep the story of his herroism alive. But there's a deeper reason why this story is so significant to the D'Atoine and Clements family. In 1967, a Referendum that gave the Commonwealth responsibility over Aboriginal affairs passed. This also allowed Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to be included in official population counts. This change meant that First Nations people would be counted as part of the population and acknowledged as equal citizens. So, in 1942 when Uncle Charlie saved 3 people's lives, he wasn't considered an equal citizen of the land he was born on. Douglas Clements: At that interview, where these Dutch journalists came out to one arm point to interview mum, and they presented mum with a photo of the young girl that he saved on that day in Broome. You're right as saying that the Dutch are recognized Uncle Charlie for his bravery, way, way before the Australian, Australian people did. I mean, this Australian federal government hasn't recognized his deeds. There's been other people, but not the Australian Federal government. Paulien Roessink: This is Douglas Clements, late Aunty Peggy's eldest son. Douglas Clements: We always call Uncle Charlie, pop pop Charlie. He's that says we know him for a long time, but anyhow, I'll just call him pop pop Charlie. So pop Charlie, him and his brother, Douglas, he's whom, which I am named, and his elder sister, anilaksi. They were born here on the dead peninsula at a place called bulgan or Swan point, and it's in the it's Bardi country. Paulien Roessink: Uncle Charlie never had kids of his own, but from what we heard, it sounds like his nieces and nephews were like his own children. Douglas Clements: From what I remember of the days of pop, he was a he was a sportsman. He used to play soccer. He liked playing soccer. He was a very good darts player. In fact, did he been to the pub a lot, and in lot of his beer that he drank, he won it through his darts game. Paulien Roessink: Douglas' brother Charla also has fond memories of Uncle Charlie. Charla: I was named after Uncle Charlie. His name was Charles Joseph Antoine I would say, when we were kids he was in Darwin, he was pretty much a father figure to us. Looked for us, did stuff and care for us. And I know when he was working up there, he used to provide supper Friday nights, he's play darts, and come home with a roast chook. Used to be our supper on Friday nights Douglas Clements: He'd come around every weekend, from what I remember he saw at home on the weekends. And one of the things he could do, he could make boomerangs, really good. He made this pair of boomerangs one day we went out to a place called Buffalo Creek, and he tested them out. There's a low tide right out the sand flats, and he let fly with his boomerangs. Jeez. Beautiful circle over there, just right out and back again, right at his feet. He was really good at it. Funny thing he's known for is he's this, he's a great seaman. And he knew some really great fishing spots. He took us, took us out fishing one day, my wife and I, and we're going across the out in the ocean here, off what I'm point, and big tides coming in, and we're going across this passage, and the tides ripping through this passage, and this whirlpool broke in front of us, would have been about 20 foot across. And we went straight into this whirlpool and we just went around around, and he gunned the motor, and we just pulled straight out of the Whirlpool and come out over the top as if nothing had happened. It was an experience. Oh, Jesus. But he was that kind of seaman. He was just so confident with himself in the water. Edie Wright: We grew up, when I say we all our cousins, all uncle Charlie's nieces and nephews. We grew up with the story of Uncle Charlie and a lot of Broome kids grew up with the story of Uncle Charlie. Paulien Roessink: Edie Wright, who we met in the first episode, wrote all about Uncle Charlie's life in a children's book called Charlie Swim. She's pretty familiar with what happened on the 3rd of March in 1942. Edie Wright: Charlie's job was to clean and refuel the Dutch planes, the flying boats that were coming down from Dutch East Indies, and they were landing in Broome. And they were refueling in Broome and resupplying and then flying onto Sydney and Melbourne to the eastern states. And he'd help refueling the plane. So that was his job, and he was moving. As soon as he cleaned one plane, he'd move on to the next plane, and he'd he'd clean that and get it ready. And that was, that was his job on the on that fateful day, when the Japanese strapped, they draft Broome and attack the flying boats that were anchored in Roebuck Bay full of military Dutch military people, their families and children. Paulien Roessink: Charla, also spent many nights asking his Uncle Charlie, what happened that day. He remembers Uncle Charlie describing the zero planes flying over and shooting the flying boates he was working on. And how his instinct told him to swim to land. Charla: the people in the Water swimming around him and singing out help me, help me. I can't swim. He swam past the young mother and the child and told them that you hang onto my shoulders you know anything my shoulders and kick with me and we'll we'll try and swim back to shore. She held onto his shoulders. The child, grabbed onto her mother's shoulder as she could. And they started swimming. Now the planes came back started shooting at the plaza, shooting at people in the water. And he said, we've got to dive underwater, we've gotta dive so they don't shoot us. But she was scared of the water, and started pull him back stop him from diving. But that managed to swim they managed to make it. Edie Wright: After the event, after the war died down, it was the Dutch that acknowledged his bravery. It was the Dutch that awarded medals and an open invitation to the Netherlands by the then reigning queen. It was the Humane Society that awarded him an official certificate acknowledging his bravery, but the Australian government, or WA Government, this did nothing. Paulien Roessink: Uncle Charlie's nephew Neville mentioned that the story didn't interest him as a child... Neville D'Antoine: it wasn't until later on, when I was helping him clean out his house, that at the bottom of under his bed, I was cleaning it out, and I opened it up, and I thought, you know, maybe, maybe I was worried about pythons being under his bed, but on the bottom of this case was this certificate of merit from The Royal Humane Society, and I was a young man then, and I began to get very interested in, what did he do that wanted this certificate of merit? Uncle Charlie being the man that he is, a very humble man, and he didn't talk too much about it, but my dad, who was, you know, he has a living memory of that event, would tell me bits of stories about this thing, about what happened. And it was then we took the certificate to the Fremantle Museum and asked him, can they look at restoring it for as much as best as they could? And they were quite willing to do that. So we had that train that took it back to Uncle Charlie. And you know, he almost burst into tears, because, you know, he was, nobody gives him anything, you know, like, you know, this is, this was a great honor for him. Neville D'Antoine: So the the the Certificate of Merit was signed in July of 1944 the 17th day of July, 1944 and it was to honor him for events for the roebuck Bay bombing of Broome. And this says it here, the derby truck driver aged 23 in rescuing a woman and child and her child from drowning in Roebuck Bay in Broome, Western Australia, on March the third, 1942 on that so, you know. So that was only two years difference between that. And then the Dutch awarded him a medal. This was later on, and they'd say, Medal with a red and yellow ribbon. And it's the first medal for honorable, honorable Medal of charitable assistance. It's one of the oldest bravery Awards The Kingdom of the Netherlands. I think I started issuing in 1982 sorry, 1822 and still being awarded for bravery by the kingdom of Netherlands. Then, I think 50 years later, there's the second award that came from that. And it's the it's a medal from the 18th knee ref, but it's a joint Dutch and Australian bomber squadron of World War Two. So that came 50 years later. But the sad thing about all of this is that you had the kingdom of Netherlands honoring for acknowledging his what he the bravery that he showed and what he did. And you have the Majesty the King. You know, the Humane Society but nothing from Australia, you know, signed off by the Governor General, but he's the Queen's representative, I understand and that so nothing actually coming from the Australian government, which is quite sad, you know, but it didn't change, you know, my admiration for Uncle Charlie and stuff like that, but I thought he should be acknowledged for what he did. Uh, for somebody that he never even knew. Paulien Roessink: Edie has similar thoughts on what decorations Australia has given to Uncle Charlie. Edie Wright: I have seen the memorial statues that they have out of town Beach, which overlooks the bay, and I've seen those, I think, oh, there's at least about eight of them where there are the voices of people on these inscriptions. Uncle Charlie is one. There's a few Dutch survivors. At the time, they were able to get sort of snippets from there was Gus Winkel, but that's the memorial that I know of. [...] I mean, there was a little bit in an article in about 1942 written by it must have been the superintendent of native welfare. And basically it said that, you know, he was, he is deserving of being a white man, so he's bravely act that was so condescending, degrading that little piece of information, but that was all that I have seen, and the family certainly haven't heard of any recognition. Documentary maker: Now, knowing that she might have been the one who was saved by your brother and looking at the picture, what you feel here? What do you feel inside? Aunty Peggy: Now we're very proud of him. [crying] He is not here to tell us. He should be here, not me. Paulien Roessink: The word humble came up a lot when we asked his family to describe how Uncle Charlie felt about the awards he received. But when diving deeper it seemed as though Uncle Charlie didn't even feel like he deserved these accolades. Douglas Clements: He always remembered that that particular day and sad from sad memories, because when he was in the water, he saved the woman and he saved the child, and at the same time, there were other women and children yelling out to be saved, and he had to ignore them. He had to swim away from get away from them, otherwise they would have all died. And he that that really bugged him. He always remembered that having to swim away from people in the water singing out for help, and he couldn't help. Josine van Aggelen: I knew immediately that I no longer had a father and mother. We were still on the plane. And my father came out of the dome where they shot out of. And suddenly pong away. And I was also hurt. And later my mother picked me up because she was helping people at the exit of the plane. She threw me out too and I believe she was also injured because she couldn't swim. Because I had her, and then she sank away. Paulien Roessink: In this podcast series we call Uncle Charlie an invisible hero, but through chatting to survivors and family we're learning that being a hero comes with a price. If you survived, you survive with the memories of the attack, whether it's the parents you had before, or the people you couldn't save. Being a hero means more than being selfless, it means living with the long-term effects of taking a risk. Uncle Charlie passed away in 1993, and to this day no recognition from the Australian government has been made. Douglas Clements: I mean, this Australian federal government hasn't recognized his deeds. There's been other people, but not the Australian Federal government. It was the Dutch Queen at the time, wanted that pop Charlie to go over to Europe to receive the war they were, they were prepared to fly him over there, but Nana wouldn't let him call it. My mother said, No, you're not going. You're staying here. So he didn't go. It just took so long to recognize the the efforts of pop Charlie, of what he did that day, and it wasn't something that came pretty freely either. It happens, I guess, a lot in the in with Aboriginal people, indigenous people in the country, that they really don't get recognized until someone makes a bit of a raises it to the attention of certain people, and something gets done about it. But for many years, other people were being recognized for deeds of bravery or acts that were helping someone. Then that pop Charlie never got any mention of it. And it wasn't until years later that when he finally did get mentioned, we thought, well, that's great. You know, pop Charlie, what he'd done from his point of view. You just put yourself in his shoes, he can see other people getting recognized for things, and he's not. He just, he must have felt a little bit down about that, but who knows? We never asked him about how we felt about not being recognized. Just when they did recognize him, I thought, great, you know that that was good, that he gets recognized, and then they had some public presentations, and that was that was good. We were happy for him, for that. Proud of him, too. Paulien Roessink: Despite seeing Uncle Charlie as a hero, his family still sees his story as a painful reminder about what it means to be Aboriginal in this country, and the history it comes with. Neville tells me about the articles written about Uncle Charlie in 1942... Neville D'Antoine: There's some of these stuff that you read is it doesn't the wording of it sounds right, like we should be almost saying a little we should be acknowledged as a white person. And I thought, well, I know their heart is in the right place, and they're trying to acknowledge the brave. On there. But, you know, words matter on that when it comes to that, and so they use the wrong words, but I think the heart's in the right place to acknowledge the heroism that he did. They just worded it wrong. I think all of this sort of stuff, and get to get acknowledgement for something that even even Though he's not alive, it doesn't matter. And he was this Aboriginal people, a person saving people that were white, and he didn't care what color they were, he just did it. That'd be really good to get the Australian Government to acknowledge the what he's what he did. I mean, the Dutch certainly didn't. The King of England did. And so it'd be just good to get Australia to do it. Edie Wright: They didn't acknowledge the efforts of Uncle Charlie, the bravery of Uncle Charlie, because at the time, you know, the policy was that, you know, we were still being assimilated, and we were still being seen as subservient type people in Australia, and it just went unrecognized. I mean, not that we expected some, some huge recognition, but, you know, a letter acknowledge him for what he did and putting his life on the line for a Dutch lady and a child. And I've recently found out there was actually another child. I mean, that was the darkest day of the Dutch military history. That day. Paulien Roessink: The family has always felt that the Australian government should have recognised Uncle Charlie's bravery. And it's not about family honour or glory, it's for a bigger reason. Edie Wright: It's part of this whole truth telling too this is the truth of the way Aboriginal people were treated at the time. I mean, Uncle Charlie couldn't go off to the forces because he's Aboriginal, and his younger brother Adrian, wanted to go off to the forces, but he's they only allowed him to be part of the land horse. So it's also part of this truth chart telling you know, Aboriginal people were involved in wars, yet their voices remained silent. This is a story about how we were treated at the time, how a young Aboriginal man was treated. It's also a story of Australia's history, Australia's military history. It's also the story of the Dutch people too, as well. You know, that says and the Japanese. There's a lot of Japanese families in Broome that are, I think, about third, fourth generation. Now, you know, this is their story too, as well. It's part of that truth telling. When you when I reflect on it too, which wasn't the intention I wrote the book, but when I think back now, I thought, yeah, this is part of the truth telling journey for for every Australian, not just Aboriginal people. Paulien Roessink: In the next episode, we'll be speaking to people who understands what it means to be recognised... Michael: I think he should have been exceptionally highly decorated if it was anybody else, it might have got the George Cross or the equivalent thereof. But I just don't think it suited the political environment of the time David: Recognition is important because it affirms that someone's actions really matter. It helps them sometimes with their mental recovery from such a traumatic event. Paulien Roessink: This is 'Uncle Charlie: the invisible hero' - a podcast from SBS Dutch and NITV Radio. I'm your host Paulien Roessink. The NITV Radio team is Kerri-Lee Barry, Alexis Moran and Ngaire Pakai. From the SBS Audio podcast team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford and Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn. And a special thanks to Pia Media - for allowing us to use their interview with the late Aunty Peggy.
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