50 Years On, Michael Douglas Reflects On His Epic Journey Making ‘One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest': 'The Movie Reflects What's Happening In America'
Michael Douglas and Saul Zaentz served as producers of Miloš Forman's anti-establishment firecracker, which remains one of just three movies ever to win all five major Academy Awards — Best Picture, Actor, Actress, Director and Screenplay. Thirteen years in the making and knocked back by countless A-list actors and studios, the movie overcame myriad challenges to become 1975's second highest-grossing U.S. film (over $100 million worldwide), beaten only by Jaws. Douglas was only 31 at the time.
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Jack Nicholson serves as Randle McMurphy, a role that had been played by Douglas' father Kirk in the Broadway play version. Randall is a rebellious new patient at a mental institution who does battle with Louise Fletcher's domineering head nurse Mildred Ratched. Will Sampson, Danny DeVito, Sydney Lassick, William Redfield, Christopher Lloyd and Brad Dourif also star, the latter two making their feature debuts. Screenplay came from Lawrence Hauben and Bo Goldman.
Here, Douglas (80) recalls the remarkable journey behind the film, his father's role in bringing it to him, and the ways in which it remains relevant to this day.
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DEADLINE: Michael, how do you view today?
MICHAEL DOUGLAS: I think the movie reflects what's happening in America right now, in terms of the Presidency and a struggle that we never anticipated we would see in our country: a struggle for democracy. There is a parallel between Nurse Ratched and the system she operates within and what's happening in America today. We are certainly under attack in in in our country right now.
But I also look back on the production as a magical process and with the greatest satisfaction for how much I learned and how important it was for my career as a producer. Saul Zaentz, my fellow producer on the movie, was an amazing man, a three-time Best Picture winner, which perhaps doesn't get the credit it should.
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DEADLINE: How fired up were you by the material when your dad was trying to get it made in the '60s?
DOUGLAS: I was taking a freshman course in 20th century American literature at the time. I was a hippie in California and Ken's book just floored me. I saw dad in the play, and years after, I heard by chance that he was in the process of selling the rights to the book after not being able to get it made as a movie. I said, 'I'll make my best effort for you to be in it.' He was very sweet and agreed to give the kid a chance.
DEADLINE: Your dad really struggled to let it go, though. He even said the process 'destroyed' him. How challenging was that?
DOUGLAS: He was proud of his son producing it, but the aspect he struggled to let go of was not playing the part. It was extremely difficult for him. When you look back as an actor, maybe you get four great parts in your career. R.P. McMurphy was one of those parts. We joked about it later, that it was my responsibility he didn't star in our film, but I reminded him that the director has the final say. I tried, but it wasn't possible. Too much time had passed. When Gene Hackman and Marlon Brando turned it down, I thought there might be more of a chance, but then Miloš really wanted Burt Reynolds. Later on, Hal Ashby showed us some outtakes of Jack Nicholson from The Last Detail and that was that.
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DEADLINE: He wasn't the only Douglas interested in a part, right. You had wanted to play Billy?
DOUGLAS: That was a brief moment in time, early on in production, but as soon as we auditioned Brad Dourif that thought disappeared. I soon realized producing was a full-time job, anyway. Both Saul and I were pretty much virgin producers but we soon both learned to go with our instincts and to do things even though people told us not to. For instance, shooting on location in January in Oregon on a film that 90% of took place inside, that could have easily been staged in Los Angeles. It was hard to explain, but having the cooperation of Dr Dean Brooks [the real doctor who stars in the film as Dr. Spivey], the actors being able to spend time with real patients in a real mental institution, these were things we couldn't have done on a set.
DEADLINE: And Saul financed the whole thing?
DOUGLAS: He did. We started at around $1.4 million and ended up close to $4 million. His partners at his music and production label Fantasy Records [whose success with Creedence Clearwater Revival helped fund the movie] were outraged. They thought I was hustling. But Saul played poker and pool, he had a gambler's instinct…I was working as an actor on The Streets Of San Francisco and was able to go back and forth between San Francisco and Berkeley where Saul was based but come the fifth season of the show I decided not to carry on and dedicated myself to the movie when it finally came together.
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DEADLINE: It was years and years looking for finance and a director and cast. Miloš had loved the project but had been detained for years in Czechoslovakia by the Russians so couldn't make it. Multiple studios and major actors turned the movie down. And then when he finally got to the U.S., Miloš had a mental health episode in the Chelsea Hotel…
DOUGLAS: Finding Miloš had been so cathartic for us. We had loved his films The Firemen's Ball and Loves Of A Blonde. We had spoken to other filmmakers, but they kept their cards so close to their chests. Miloš was collaborative and open with us, despite his European background where the auteur director is top of the pyramid. When Miloš came up to my house in LA with Saul we swelled up with emotion when we sat down to read the script together.
DEADLINE: Did you ever think it wouldn't get made?
DOUGLAS: I was probably a little naive. But I knew Saul had the same passion I did. Did I get nervous as we got a little closer and the budget started going up? Yeah, to some degree. But I believed we'd get there.
DEADLINE: You must have been so relieved when you finally got to production in Oregon. But there were plenty of ups and downs to come, from illness to actors' mental health crises, and key players not seeing eye to eye…
DOUGLAS: There's no question about it. We had to wait for Jack for another six months before shooting due to a prior commitment, and that gave us more time to audition, which was so vital. To give you an idea of how disparate the search was, the casting of Will Sampson came about after he was recommended to me by a used car dealer and rodeo announcer I sat next to one time on a flight. Jack, Saul and I went up to meet Will in Washington where he was working as a forest fire ranger. When he walked through the arrival gate, with cowboy hat and cowboy boots on, all seven feet of him, Jack said, 'That's the Chief.' We flew back down to Oregon in a tiny plane, so Jack basically had to sit on Will's lap. It was an ecstatic moment to have the casting finally complete…
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DEADLINE: Danny DeVito, someone you've worked with a few times in your career, was a former roommate of yours, right?
DOUGLAS: That's right. We knew each other while I was at college and were roommates after that in New York. He played Martini in the off Broadway version of the book. He was the first person cast. But I first met Danny when I was at the Eugene O'Neill Memorial theater in Waterford, Connecticut, over the summers of college and Danny came up as a member of the American Academy of Dramatic Arts which was presenting a show there. We bonded at that time…
But no doubt it was an eventful shoot. We went through three DoPs on the film. Haskell Wexler, our original DoP, was very talented. He had also been a director and had strong thoughts on how things should go, some of which Miloš took on board, some he didn't. But he started to undermine Miloš a little so that didn't end well.
There were other challenges. One Friday, a couple of us were having a few drinks when we learnt that Bill Redfield, who played Harding, was diagnosed with leukemia after showing symptoms on set. I met his wife soon after and she told me they had known before Bill started filming but kept it secret because he had wanted to do the part so much. We were terrified. We were told Bill wasn't long for this world. We had a real quandary as to whether to continue with Bill or recast. But he and his wife begged us to continue and that's what we did. Sadly, he passed away not long after we wrapped shoot.
The boat scene was another major issue. It was horrendous for a lot of the actors. We were out there for a week and people were dry heaving, nauseous, that was a tough one to get through. There were tears. But this was such a tight group. That was the best thing about it. The ensemble. It was a truly great thing to watch the dailies.
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DEADLINE: How difficult was it when Jack and Miloš had their falling out?
DOUGLAS: That was largely related to Miloš not letting the actors see the dailies. They patched it up in the end. When Jack arrived on set after his previous commitment, the other actors were really deep into their characters, and some had been living and sleeping in the mental hospital for weeks by that time. Jack was taken aback — these guys didn't even break character during lunchtime — but he quickly realized how serious the production was.
Miloš was a disciplinarian. He would say 'And cut! Perfect, perfect… Now let's do it one more time.' We would joke about that.
DEADLINE: Did you know at the time that what you had was great?
DOUGLAS: We knew what we had was incredible. I could show you a 10-minute reaction scene of Jack's, just his reaction in the group therapy section, and you would watch it mesmerized.
DEADLINE: Someone who didn't ever come round was the author Ken Kesey who ultimately disavowed the film. How disappointing was that for you?
DOUGLAS: Yeah, that was the one. That was the one real sadness. Ken's script kept a lot of the literary qualities of his novel, so it didn't quite work. The argument began under the auspices that we had screwed him somehow in his deal, but that wasn't the case. We felt we had been very generous in offering him 3%, but he wanted 6%. That was always a claw in the side of the project. It eventually led to a lawsuit. And by the time this came around, a couple of years after the movie was released, Ken's 3% was worth around $3 million. We didn't hear from Ken for a long time so we said 'ok, Ken, we're going to donate your share to the University Of Oregon in your hometown of Eugene. Then he finally go back to us and we finally came to a settlement…I felt bad at the Oscars. I think Miloš was the only person who mentioned Ken. I had worshipped him. He was an important part of my generation and I had spent a lot of time with him. But I'm not sure he ever even saw the movie.
DEADLINE: No, apparently he only ever saw it years later by accident on TV one time…Like many, I was struck by the film's haunting, spare score, and Jack Nitzsche's unusual use of the saw…
DOUGLAS: And crystal glasses. Spinning fingers over glasses filled with different amounts of water…
DEADLINE: Right. I didn't know that. Was everyone on the team in favour of that sound?
DOUGLAS: We were in favour. We were looking for something unique. It was a mental asylum after all, so we were looking for something haunting, but not too scary. Jack Nitzsche was a very interesting character, and very talented. We took a chance. And I remember he was recording it up at Fantasy Records in Berkeley. That's where we did our post-production. I remember going over there to see him one day and he was sitting there at this table full of crystal glasses, and was dipping his fingers in water, then running them over the rims to create different tones. Then this big bearded trucker brings in a massive saw. I thought what the hell is going on? But it was a phenomenally eerie, effective soundtrack. And again, it was one of those god given moments that worked out.
DEADLINE: Who would you say was responsible for the success of the film's marketing? Presumably domestic distributor United Artists were key there because the movie found a vast audience…DOUGLAS: That's a good question. United Artists was largely responsible for the marketing. We went over the poster designs with them. It was Lisa Weinstein's mother, Marsha Weinstein, I believe. She became a confidante with Saul. But a lot of the movie's success was also down to word of mouth. There was such a small drop in box office each week and it just went on and on. Of course that doesn't happen today. It was the same overseas.
DEADLINE: Yes, I think it was Sweden where the film played for years straight…
DOUGLAS: Yes, this was pre-social media. People would actually talk about movies much more back then. Going to the cinema was more of a unique experience and people did that more often than today where more people consume at home. Releasing late in the year meant we got momentum going into the Oscars.
DEADLINE: Did UA shy away from any of the tougher elements of the movie in their campaign?
DOUGLAS: No, thank goodness. We'd had that difficulty when trying to get the movie set up with studios, and everyone told me no one wants to see another movie like The Snake Pit and they missed the humour of the movie. I remember the poster with Jack looking up to the sky, but it's kind of a hopeful look, you know. And of course we had a lot of very positive reviews.
DEADLINE: The movie was an enormous box office hit, both in the U.S. and overseas. It made more than $100M globally, which is phenomenal for a socio-political drama made on a fraction of that budget. You can't have foreseen that level of success despite knowing what you had was very good?
DOUGLAS: We didn't. We hadn't anticipated just how much it would connect all around the world, despite knowing how great Ken's story is and how well the cast did.
DEADLINE: Presumably the key players on the movie did very well financially?
DOUGLAS: Yes, we did. Me, Saul, Ken Kesey… I teased Jack for a long time that it was the best-performing movie of his career. I shared my back end with my father for giving me the rights. I think he made more money off that than on any movie he had starred in. It was a win all the way round so I'm super proud.
DEADLINE: I read online that Jack's pay eclipsed all the other actors, which is probably what you'd expect at that time. I thought I'd seen that Louise Fletcher was a bit frustrated that the pay wasn't slightly more evenly distributed. I don't know if that's true but was that ever an issue?
DOUGLAS: I've never heard that complaint. Louise was a relatively unknown actress at that time. She was not a profit particpant in her career, nor were the other actors. The only thing I heard from the actors at the time was that it was the best thing that happened to their careers. I remained good friends with many of the actors for many many years, including Louise.
Jack Nicholson and Michael Douglas playing pool.
DEADLINE: After the film's enormous success, did you hear from any of the well-known actors who had turned down the roles of Murphy or Nurse Ratched?
DOUGLAS: I know that Anne Bancroft, who turned the part of Nurse Ratched down, was at a cocktail party with her husband Mel Brooks shortly after the movie's release and she read him the riot act there and then for influencing her to turn it down. I heard that from some people who were there at the party. There were so many that turned the part down. Colleen Dewhurst and Angela Lansbury were others. The movie came shortly after the success of the women's liberation movement and I think there was a perception among some actresses that they didn't want to take on a villainous character at that time.
DEADLINE: Did you ever have a conversation with Marlon Brando about the role of R.P. McMurphy? He was among those offered the part…
DOUGLAS: No. No discussion. It was sent to him and that was it.
DEADLINE: Five years ago you were an exec producer on the Ryan Murphy spin-off series called about Nurse Ratched's character. How often have there been requests for remakes and spinoffs and what did you make of Murphy's series?
DOUGLAS: That would be a question for Paul Zaentz who is across the rights. I know he he's had multiple requests in the in the past, but he has been very selective and I think that was the only time they've done one, which is good because so much gets remade these days…as for the series, it was ok, just ok. I wasn't very much involved, to be honest.
DEADLINE: Do you have anything coming up this year to celebrate the movie?
DOUGLAS: I'm doing something with the Academy. Myself, Danny DeVito, Brad Douriff and Christopher Lloyd. I'll also be at a couple of festivals in coming months and there will be opportunities to discuss the movie there.
DEADLINE: The major studios don't often want to get behind movies with social or political consciences today. They're even rare in the independent space. There were so many remarkable U.S. films in this vein in the '70s, from , to , and . The quality of moviemaking and the longevity of so many of the movies in that decade is remarkable. Why were movies so potent from that time and why do you think we have seen a dip in that type of U.S. moviemaking in recent years?
DOUGLAS: Well, Cuckoo's Nest was an entirely independent production. The studios all passed on it. Maybe they didn't like the deal we offered, because we had already financed it. But they were also skeptical about the material. Today, streaming has taken over. It has inhaled Hollywood. It's very lucrative. Silicon Valley made us look like paupers. For Amazon and Apple, movies are a side business. At the same time, many of the great screenwriters went to work in TV and streaming. But you're right, if you compare the five Best Picture nominees from our year [also nominated in 1976 were Barry Lyndon, Dog Day Afternoon, Jaws and Nashville], with some of the recent years… Theatrically it has become very difficult. Look at that Apple movie Wolfs. It was meant to be theatrical, and it turned into a one-week release. I'm working on a small movie right now that I'm going to produce and I'm aware how difficult it's going to be to get it into theaters for any length of time. The issue is whether the movie theater experience can hang in there. It's a tough time for theater owners.
DEADLINE: A couple of years ago you acted with your son Cameron in the movie ? When might we see that?
DOUGLAS: I don't know. I believe it's looking for distribution.
DEADLINE: You were in three of the movies and appeared in . Would you do another Marvel movie?
DOUGLAS: I don't think so. I had the experience, and I was excited to do it. I'd never done a green screen picture before. I did the The Kominsky Method because I wanted to work with Chuck Lorre and try some comedy. But I'm enjoying my hiatus and enjoying my life. It was overwhelming running the production company and acting at the same time.
DEADLINE: Will you act again?
DOUGLAS: Yes, if something good comes up that I really like. But I don't feel a burning desire. I'm still producing. I still love bringing people together.
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