Is This Late-Night TV's Last Gasp?

New York Times

05-05-2025

John Mulaney describes his weekly Netflix talk show as 'a throwback in some ways.' Indeed, it seems to draw inspiration from numerous 20th-century late-night hosts, from Dick Cavett to David Letterman to Conan O'Brien.
'It's almost like the way you might remember a bunch of shows from the past, but it's not exactly what they were like,' Mr. Mulaney said in an interview from his sun-soaked office in Hollywood. He was between meetings, gearing up for the latest episode of his show, 'Everybody's Live,' which appears Wednesdays at 10 p.m. Eastern.
'No element is new,' he added, 'but the way they're being laid out might feel a little bit.'
Mr. Mulaney's show represents an important test in the entertainment industry: Can the traditional talk show format — with an opening monologue, celebrity guests, live musical performances, a sidekick — survive in the streaming era?
Or is the future of talk shows something quite different, and much more like … podcasts?
As the television industry has leaped to streaming, many old genres have come along. Prestige dramas, crime documentaries, reality TV, stand-up specials and even soap operas have successfully crossed over. But not talk shows.
Even on traditional network and cable TV, ratings for late-night talk shows are down, and advertising revenue has plummeted. The number of shows is falling, too, so much so that last year's Emmy Awards had one nominee fewer because of a lack of submissions. This fall, CBS will forgo programming its 12:30 a.m. slot, the first time in three decades that the network will not have an original talk show in that wee hour.
'Of all the legacy broadcast day parts — morning shows, evening news, late night — late night might be the first one headed for the wood chipper,' said Jim Bell, a former showrunner of 'The Tonight Show' on NBC and now a senior executive for the 2028 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles. 'It's expensive to make, tough to monetize and no longer appointment viewing. It's still got cultural juice, but from a business standpoint, it's the most vulnerable.'
As recently as 2018, the five broadcast network late-night shows — hosted by Stephen Colbert, Jimmy Fallon, Jimmy Kimmel, James Corden and Seth Meyers — drew an estimated $439 million in combined advertising revenue, according to Guideline, an advertising data firm.
By 2022, that figure had fallen to $277 million, Guideline said. Last year, it plunged to $220.6 million, nearly a 50 percent decline from 2018.
Late-night hosts remain big-time celebrities, however, something that complicates the equation for media executives.
'The hosts still matter,' Mr. Bell said.
Other kinds of talk shows are doing perfectly well.
'Hot Ones,' a digital celebrity interview series conducted over spicy chicken wings, is a bona fide hit, and a bidding war for its streaming rights is expected this year. Jon Stewart's once-a-week return to 'The Daily Show' last year has been a boon for Comedy Central, minting viral moments and driving higher ratings.
Additionally, many podcasts film their shows and find large audiences on YouTube. In fact, YouTube has surpassed Spotify and Apple as the top platform for podcasts, according to several studies.
Since last year, podcast stars have signed the sort of media megadeals that used to be reserved for late-night hosts, celebrity news anchors, big producers or the cast of 'Friends.' Those deals include Joe Rogan (reportedly $250 million), Alex Cooper ($125 million), the three hosts of 'SmartLess' ($100 million) and the brothers Jason and Travis Kelce (another $100 million).
Mr. O'Brien quietly left late night four years ago but has had a career renaissance — including what will be back-to-back hosting gigs at the Oscars — thanks to his podcast, 'Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend.' (A wildly popular appearance on 'Hot Ones' last year did not hurt, either).
'The lines between podcasts and talk shows are getting pretty blurry,' Ted Sarandos, co-chief executive of Netflix, mused during a recent earnings call. So much so that he added, 'As the popularity of video podcasts grow, I suspect you will see some of them find their way to Netflix.'
Before Mr. Mulaney's show, which premiered in March, Netflix appeared to have gotten out of the traditional talk show format altogether.
Star comedians like Chelsea Handler, Norm Macdonald, Joel McHale and Michelle Wolf all hosted talk shows on Netflix that came and went in the late 2010s. Sarah Silverman's show on Hulu was canceled after two seasons, and even Mr. Stewart had a show (for Apple TV+) that had difficulty gaining traction.
Part of the problem could be that a format that worked for a long time in traditional television may not work in a new medium.
'On digital platforms, like YouTube or a TikTok, talent is connecting with an audience just like how talent would connect with an audience on linear television — but the way you're doing it is very different,' said Chris Licht, a former executive producer of 'The Late Show' on CBS and a former chairman of CNN. 'So the format has to adjust.'
Mr. Mulaney, a renowned stand-up comedian and comedy writer, wound up hosting a talk show almost by accident. During the Netflix Is a Joke comedy festival last May, he was assigned to produce a nightly live show, one that could host the many comedic legends in Los Angeles during the event.
Mr. Mulaney originally envisioned a show that would be a bit 'like MTV,' he said, where the host would serve as a sort of V.J., introducing one comic and then the next. He decided he could host it himself, and before long, the concept started to morph into the show's current iteration.
'Then it became like, well, people can come out and I'll talk to them, and then they'll sit there,' Mr. Mulaney said. 'Then I'm interviewing people, and we're doing bits. Like, we couldn't have backed into it in a more convoluted way.'
Robbie Praw, Netflix's vice president of stand-up and comedy formats, said in an interview that the company had not initially been 'looking or aspiring to do another talk show.' It was more interested 'in being in the John Mulaney business' than in talk shows generally, he said, adding, 'John is so singular.'
The first season of the show, called 'Everybody's in LA,' ran for all of six episodes but was a huge critical hit. Netflix went ahead and ordered 12 episodes for this year and changed the name to 'Everybody's Live.'
There has been no shortage of big-name guests. Mr. Letterman, Mr. O'Brien, Tina Fey, Bill Hader and Ben Stiller, among other comedic superstars, have appeared this season.
And though the show loosely follows one theme (planning a funeral, borrowing money, getting fired), Mr. Mulaney is not following in the footsteps of Mr. Colbert or John Oliver and dedicating much of the show to the current political news cycle.
'I was kind of like, what type of show do I want to watch?' Mr. Mulaney said. 'And it is not — because the ground is well covered by great people — a topical 'Can you believe sociopolitical story of the day?''
The performance of 'Everybody's Live' could be a key piece of evidence to determine whether streaming executives will keep taking a stab at the format or stop altogether. Mr. Mulaney strongly suggested that he would be interested in doing another season.
It is not clear how the show is performing, but critical attention has been more muted this season. The first episode appeared in Netflix's daily 10 most-watched TV series in the United States, but the show has not returned in the subsequent seven weeks.
Mr. Praw, the Netflix executive, said he was 'extremely, extremely excited about the creative direction of the show.' He pointed to one comedic bit in April — roughly two dozen men standing onstage side by side, ranging from five to seven feet tall — while Mr. Letterman looked on as a guest.
'I had goose bumps in that moment because it had echoes of everything I used to love about David Letterman,' Mr. Praw said. 'And there sat David Letterman on the couch during that. What a special moment'
He said Netflix was not prepared, however, to announce anything yet about a potential third season.
'Every show we've ever done we want more people to watch,' he said.