Meet the Press – May 18, 2025

NBC News

18-05-2025

KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: out of office. My exclusive interview with former Vice President Mike Pence.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I've never been a fan of American presidents criticizing America on foreign soil.
KRISTEN WELKER:
His thoughts on the second Trump administration and the direction of the Republican Party.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
There's no question in this administration that he is surrounded, it appears to me, with people that -- that nurtured his more protectionist instincts.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Plus: trade tensions. President Trump returns from his trip to the Middle East amid new concerns about his trade war, as the world's largest retailer warns higher prices are on the way.
JOHN DAVID RAINEY:
But the level of tariffs that have been proposed is pretty challenging for all retailers, for suppliers, and -- and certainly our concern is consumers are going to feel some of that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I'll talk to Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent. And: listening in. Audio of former President Joe Biden's interview with the special counsel investigating his handling of classified documents renews the debate over his fitness for office.
FMR. PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Trump gets elected in November of 2017.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS:
2016.
FMR. PRES. JOE BIDEN:
'16. 2016.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I'll talk to Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent Andrea Mitchell; Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS Newshour; Ashley Etienne, former communications director to Vice President Harris; and Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. President Trump returns to Washington after his trip to the Middle East, and he is touting what he says are new critical investments in the U.S. economy. It comes as his agenda back home is facing new challenges, and as he's planning for direct phone calls with the leaders of Russia and Ukraine on Monday. Against that backdrop, I sat down with his former Vice President Mike Pence on Friday at his home in Indiana.
[START TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about President Trump's first official overseas trip to the Middle East --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
-- this week, where he met with the newly installed president of Syria. He dropped all of the sanctions against that country despite Israel's opposition. The trip included stops in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE, but he did not stop in Israel. Sir, what message do you think President Trump's trip sent to Israel overall?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, first off, I think it was a very successful trip for the American economy. The president secured financial commitments in all three countries, including a historic contract for purchasing Boeing aircraft that'll really support American jobs. And I don't gainsay that. But, Kristen, I've never been a fan of American presidents criticizing America on foreign soil. And to have the president in Saudi Arabia questioning America's global war on terror, and describing it as nation-building and interventionist, I thought was a disservice to generations of Americans who wore the uniform and who took the fight to our enemy, you know, in Afghanistan and in Iraq. And particularly giving that speech in Saudi Arabia, where 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers hailed from, not including Osama bin Laden, I thought was unfortunate.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about another aspect of President Trump's trip. He said that he was going to accept a $400 million luxury jet from Qatar to use as a temporary Air Force One. He said he'll eventually donate that to his presidential library. Do you think President Trump should accept a military aircraft from Qatar?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I think first we've got to remember who Qatar is. We've got a military base there. I have members of our immediate family that have deployed to the region. But Qatar has a long history of playing both sides. They support Hamas. They supported Al Qaeda. Qatar has actually financed pro-Hamas protests on American campuses across the United States. So, the very idea that we would accept an Air Force One from Qatar I think is inconsistent with our security, with our intelligence needs. And my hope is the president reconsiders it. I think if Qatar wants to make a gift to the United States, they ought to take that $400 million and plow it into infrastructure on our military base.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you're saying President Trump should turn down this plane?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I think he should. I think -- look, others have observed or there are profound issues, the potential for intelligence gathering, the need to ensure the president of the United States is safe and secure as he travels around the world and of course also there are very real constitutional issues. The Constitution prohibits public officials from accepting a present, in the words of the Constitution, a present from a foreign state. Now they may have some basis through chain of title for avoiding that, but I think it's just a bad idea, and my hope is the president will think better of it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about an issue that you raised. President Trump's tariffs obviously have been a big theme of this second administration. President Trump says foreign countries pay for the tariffs. He says they're going to make the country rich. And yet you have said, you've called them the 'Trump Tariff Tax'. Why?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, first off, the initial reciprocal tariffs that he unveiled would be the largest peacetime tax hike on the American people in the history of this country. As I said, I'm glad he's paused that. And as we're seated here, I understand the president is going to make an offer to 150 countries. But, look, he and I have talked many times about trade. Here in Indiana, we're one of the leading exporting states in the country. What we make here, what we grow and raise here we sell around the world. I've always believed that trade means jobs. But I came to respect President Trump's willingness to use the threat of tariffs to negotiate, as we did with the new trade deal with Canada and Mexico. We renegotiated South Korea. We were well down the road of a trade agreement with Japan, with the U.K., with the EU during our time. But there's no question in this administration that he is surrounded, it appears to me, with people that nurtured his more protectionist instincts. And as the president has said to me many times, he has a sense that other countries pay tariffs when the reality is when Americans buy goods overseas, the company that imports those goods in this country pays the tariff and more often than not passes that along in higher prices to consumers. And I worry about inflation. We just heard Walmart made the announcement that they'll be raising prices in the wake of these tariffs. My view of tariffs overall is this: We ought to be aggressively negotiating for free trade with free nations. We ought to use the threat of leverage to bring down trade barriers and subsidies.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, to that point, let me ask you about the tariffs from the first term. They added some $80 billion in higher prices for Americans, increased prices on things like tires and washing machines. Why didn't you say they're a tax during the first administration?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I – I probably did in the hallways, but the president gets to make the decision.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You told President Trump that directly?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, sure. But look –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So how did he respond?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
–when you're vice president of the United States, my view is always this: I'd favor the president with the full range of my opinion in private. And then when he made the decision, my job was to support his decision absent some higher calling or higher obligation that one has. And I – I fully supported his approach on tariffs, but I was never confused about who pays tariffs.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about the war in Ukraine. There were talks in Turkey this week between Russia and Ukraine, but none of the principals were there. President Zelenskyy wasn't there. President Putin was there. President Trump wasn't there. President Trump said the only way to get a deal is for him to meet with Putin face to face. Knowing what you know about Vladimir Putin, Mr. Vice President, do you think he will be - ever be serious about making a deal?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
It's been roughly three years since Russia launched its unprovoked, brutal invasion into Ukraine. Hundreds of thousands of lives have been lost. At the outset of the war, I actually traveled with my wife across the border to a refugee center. Saw hundreds and hundreds of women and children of every age fleeing from the Russian invasion. I would return there a year or so back, and meet with President Zelenskyy, and hear again about the horrors and depredations of the Russian military. Look, I've – I've met Vladimir Putin. My judgment is Vladimir Putin only understands strength. And President Zelenskyy has agreed to a ceasefire, 30-day ceasefire that our European allies called for. Vladimir Putin calls a meeting that he doesn't show up for. So, I honestly think the time has come for President Trump to impose harsh sanctions on Russia and also to increase military support for Ukraine. I think those two messages, making it clear, in combination with the president's good recent dialogue with President Zelenskyy that took place at the Vatican. And in addition to the new mineral deal, which I think sent a deafening message to Moscow that America and Ukraine are here to stay, I think the time is now for sanctions against Russia, additional sanctions against Russia, Kristen, and also renewed military support for Ukraine. I think that and only that has the potential to bring Vladimir Putin to the table and achieve a just and lasting peace.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Last month President Trump directed the attorney general to review two people he considers to be political foes, including Chris Krebs, who's the election official who called the 2020 election the most secure in American history. Do you ever worry that President Trump will order an investigation into you for your actions on January 6?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I – I don't worry about it. I regret some of the rearview thinking this administration's been doing for people that did their job. Some of the cancellation of security details around people like Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and John Bolton I think have been regrettable. But, you know, elections are about the future. And I think the American people elected President Trump to return to the White House to focus on the future. And if I had a word with him, I'd – I'd encourage him to keep eyes forward and – and embrace the better angels of his nature in all these issues.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You were recently awarded the John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage Award for your actions on January 6. President Trump pardoned nearly 1,600 people who were criminally charged in connection with their actions on January 6. You said that pardoning people who assaulted law enforcement, quote, "sent the wrong message." What message did those pardons send, sir?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, first let me say I was deeply humbled by the recognition that we received from the John F. Kennedy Library. President Kennedy was a hero from my youth. Still is. And to be in any way associated with his – his legacy and Americans that he wrote about in his famous book was one of the greatest honors of my life, and I'm truly grateful. But look I – I will always believe by God's grace I did my duty that day to support and defend the Constitution of the United States and see to the peaceful transfer of power. But individuals who broke into the Capitol, who assaulted police officers, I said that day and I believe to this moment should have been prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Now I will say, Kristen, I know there were people that came into the Capitol that day that just walked through an open door, meant no harm, did no harm. Those people, every single one of them, if they were caught up in the legal system, they should have been pardoned. But the people that engaged in violence - you know, we're at the end here of Police Week in Washington, D.C. That's where the families of fallen officers come to our nation's capital every year to remember those who died in the line of duty. And the heroes on January 6 were all wearing uniforms. I mean, they held the line. They made it possible for us to secure the Capitol, reconvene the Congress, and complete our work under the Constitution the very same day. And for my part, I – I – I will always believe to have pardoned the people that assaulted police officers that day was wrong.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Would you ever consider running for president again?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I – I – You know, I don't – I don't see that in my future. You know, our family's been blessed in so many ways. I mean, I'm a guy that grew up in a small town here in Indiana. I just dreamed of being the congressman from my hometown. And I got to live that dream. But the opportunity to be governor here in Indiana, to go on to be vice president of the United States was beyond anything I imagined. And I had the chance to run for president. We did that last time. But I – I will tell you from my heart, Kristen, what I feel is my calling is exactly what called me to the Republican Party in the days of Ronald Reagan. And that is that I – I want to be a voice for conservative values. I want to be a voice for the policies and liberties enshrined in the Constitution of the United States. That's what – that's what defines us as Americans. I want to be a champion of the conservative cause. And that's where I'll stay focused, and we'll let the future take care of itself.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So just to be very clear, do you rule out running for president ever again based on what you're saying?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Yeah, I – I – I have no plans. I don't see it. But, as I said, we'll – we'll keep standing for everything we've always stood for, and we'll let the future take care of itself.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
We will have more of my conversation with former Vice President Pence coming up later in the broadcast. But first, when we come back, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. There are new economic warnings after the credit ratings agency, Moody's, downgraded the United States' credit rating one notch from its AAA rating. Moody's citing concerns over the nation's rising debt. It comes as President Trump's tax bill suffered a setback in Congress this past week. Joining me now is Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent. Secretary Bessent, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
Kristen, good to see you. Thanks for having me on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's wonderful to have you on after a long foreign trip. Thank you for being here. Let's start right there with Moody's downgrading the nation's credit rating. And they do cite the debt. I want to read you a little bit of what Moody's says. It says, quote, "If the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act is extended, which is our base case, it will add around $4 trillion to the deficit over the next decade." Several Republicans, Mr. Secretary, are citing similar concerns. Does the president's tax bill need to do more to address the nation's debt and deficit?
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
Well, Kristen, first – first of all, I – I think that Moody's is a lagging indicator. I think that's what everyone thinks of credit agencies. Larry Summers and I don't agree on everything, but he said that's when they – they downgraded the U.S. in 2011. So it's – it's a lagging indicator. And just like Sean Duffy said with our air traffic control system, we didn't get here in the – in the past 100 days. It's the Biden administration and the spending that we have – have seen over the past four years. We inherited 6.7% deficit to GDP, the highest when we weren't in a recession, not in a war. And we are determined to bring the spending down and grow the economy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Fair enough. But under President Trump's first administration he added $8 trillion to the nation's debt in his first term. So there's plenty of blame to go around. Let me –
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
No, no, no, no, no. But let's review. We were in the rescue portion of Covid. The Biden – the Biden administration was in the recovery portion. And Kristen, it would've been if not for Senators Manchin and Sinema, who are no longer the – in the Democratic caucus, that it would've been $4 trillion or $5 trillion more.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It did include the – the tax cuts as well. But let me ask you about Walmart, this big news from Walmart. It says it will start raising prices on its consumers, Mr. Secretary, as early as this month due to the tariffs. Now, President Trump out with a very stern warning on social media saying Walmart, quote, "should eat the tariffs," adding the company made far more than expected last year. Is the president asking American companies to be less profitable?
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
I – I was on the phone with Doug McMillon, the CEO of Walmart, yesterday. And Walmart is in fact, going to, as you describe it, eat some of the tariffs, that – just as they did in '18, '19, and '20. The other thing, though, that we are seeing that Doug passed along to me, that with their consumers, the single most important thing is the gasoline price. Gasoline prices have collapsed under President Trump. So we – we are seeing that. The other thing that will happen, that is a direct tax cut for consumers. Then the transportation costs are also a big input. So let's see what happens. What you're describing was Walmart's earnings call. The other thing the companies have to do, they have to give the worst case scenario so that they're not sued. So you know, I – I think overall we are seeing a decline in services, inflation, and I – and we saw inflation come down for the first time in four years.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, you know, in my conversation with former Vice President Mike Pence, he says he sees tariffs as a tax. How far, Mr. Secretary, is the president, is the administration willing to go to prevent CEOs from increasing prices?
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
Well, I – I think what we are hearing here is tax – people are saying tax increases are inflationary that – when I was testifying before Congress last week, one of the congressmen said that. And I said, "Well, Congressman, if taxes are inflationary, let's cut taxes." So let's get this tax bill done, bring down taxes, which according to this line of thinking, should be disinflationary.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But the Federal Reserve has said that tariffs are inflationary. Just to be very clear, you said you called Walmart. Is that what CEOs can expect, that you, that the president, that other members of the administration will apply pressure to try to prevent them from passing on these prices to CEOs?
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
I – I didn't apply any pressure. The – the – Doug and I have a very good relationship, so I just wanted to hear it from him rather than – than second, third-hand from the press. And again, as I said, this is all from their earnings call. And on an earnings call, you have to give the – the worst case scenario. Kristen, to go back to what you said, the Federal Reserve is not saying that tariffs will cause inflation. They're saying they're not sure, and that they're in wait and see mode.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about the other big news that you were a part of a week ago in Switzerland, negotiating with China's officials. You and the administration lowered tariffs from the high rate of 145% to 30% for 90 days, to allow talks to continue. But President Trump had said previously, and I'm quoting from him, "China needs to make a deal with the U.S. We don't have to make a deal with them." So why did the United States back down?
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
Neither side backed down. Both sides realized that this, as I had said, the – was unsustainable. So we had the equivalent of an embargo, which is not what either side wanted. You know, it was this constant tit-for-tat escalation. So both sides brought the tariffs down by 115%. So for 2025, we have increased tariffs on China by 30%, they have increased them by 10% on us. We now have a mechanism in place to continue talks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. On Friday, as a piece of this, President Trump, while he was on the foreign trip, said that countries should expect letters from you, from Secretary Lutnick, saying this is what the tariff rate is going to be. Mr. Secretary, does that effectively mean that these negotiations with other countries are over? And how high should they expect tariffs to go? Above 10%?
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
This means that they're not negotiating in good faith. They are going to get a letter the – saying, "Here – here is the rate." So I would expect that everyone would come and negotiate in good faith.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You expect that rate, though, that you would slap on any country that you think is not negotiating in good faith to be above 10%?
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
Well, I think that it would be the April 2nd level. Some countries were at 10%, some were substantially higher. And the negotiating leverage that President Trump is talking about here is if you don't want to negotiate then it will spring back to the April 2nd level.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I have to ask you about the war in Ukraine. President Trump saying he is going to speak with President Zelensky and Putin on Monday. Former Vice President Pence told me, "It is time to impose harsh sanctions now." What say you, Mr. Secretary: is it time to impose sanctions against Russia?
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
Well, I think we will see the – what happens when both sides get to the table. President Trump has made it very clear that if President Putin does not negotiate in good faith that the United States will not hesitate to up the Russia sanctions along with our European partners. What I can tell you is the sanctions were very ineffective during the Biden administration because they kept them low because they were afraid of pushing up domestic oil prices.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Very quickly, how long for the timeline until you move to sanctions? Obviously there's a call. But if the president doesn't feel like there's progress how much time is he going to give them?
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
I – I – look, I – I'm not going to tie the president's hands in his negotiations.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you, former Vice President Mike Pence echoed several of President Trump's, quite frankly, own allies in expressing concerns about this plane that Qatar has offered to President Trump. They are saying it sends the wrong message. It sends the wrong message and raises concerns ethically, raises concerns constitutionally and about security. Why is it appropriate for the president to accept a $400 million jet from Qatar?
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
Well, it's not the president accepting it, it would be the United States government. And Senator Mullin said this weekend that the talks had actually begun under the Biden administration. So – but Kristen, what I can tell you is I think this is an off-ramp for many in the media not to acknowledge what an incredible trip this was. You know, President Trump has brought back trillions of investments in the United States. Every stop we made, the – the enthusiasm in – in Saudi Arabia, in Qatar, in the United Arab – Arab Emirates to invest in the United States that they want to push more and more, they have funds here. And if we go back to your initial question on the Moody's downgrade, who cares? Qatar doesn't. Saudi doesn't. UAE doesn't. They're all pushing money in. They've made ten-year investment plans. So this administration, we're doing peace deals, trade deals and tax deals.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And just very, very quickly, President Trump has said he plans to keep that plane in his presidential library after. But what do you say to some Republicans who argue it sends a message that the United States can be bought, or that other countries can curry favor if they offer gifts?
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
I say that the gifts are to the American people. These trillions of dollars of investments that are going to create jobs in the U.S., whether it's the UAE building this gigantic aluminum plant in Oklahoma, whether it's these data centers that Qatar is going to do, is $600 billion on its way to $1 trillion from Saudi, it all accrues to the American people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, Secretary Bessent, I know you've had a long week traveling with the president. Thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it.
SEC. SCOTT BESSENT:
Good to see you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Great to see you. And when we come back, Democratic Senator Chris Murphy joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Senator Murphy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah. Thanks for having me back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Of course.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You just heard my conversation with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent. We were talking about the president's tax bill. Secretary Bessent argues it will create hundreds of billions of dollars in economic growth. You obviously are one of the Democrats who opposes this bill. Are Democrats standing in the way of the economic growth that Secretary Bessent was just arguing?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, what we're standing in the way of is the most massive transfer of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the rich in the history of the country. This budget bill is an absolute disaster. It is going to kick over ten million people off of their healthcare -- Medicaid covers about a quarter of all Americans -- in order to pass along a new trillion dollar tax cut for the richest 1 percent. Nobody in this country is asking for that. And in addition, it's going to dramatically drive up the deficit. I heard the Treasury Secretary say that 'who cares about the downgrading of our credit rating from Moody's'. That is a big deal. That means that we are likely headed for a recession. That probably means higher interest rates for anybody out there who is trying to start a business or to buy a home. These guys are running the economy recklessly because all they care about is the health of the Mar-a-Lago billionaire class. They only care about their corporate friends. They are going to destroy this economy. They are going to throw millions of people off of healthcare just so that they can pass along a benefit to a small handful of very rich Americans. That is deeply unpopular. And my hope is that it won't pass-- that enough Republicans see that nobody is asking for that massive investment in only a small handful of Americans-- that they'll vote against it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you, you raise the issue of Moody's downgrading the nation's credit rating, and of course, they do cite the debt that the nation has accrued, of course, over decades in Democratic and Republican administrations. Why didn't Democrats do more to address the debt when you all were in power?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, I think it's important to remember that some of the most important legislative achievements during Joe Biden's presidency were done in a way that reduced the deficit. In fact, the Inflation Reduction Act, which made massive investments in renewable energy, reduced prescription drug costs, was done in a way that drove down the deficit, not driving the deficit up. Most of the deficit that was added under Joe Biden's presidency was in those early days, when we were still recovering from the pandemic. But there's just no doubt that it was Donald Trump who added more to the deficit than any president in the history of the country. And he is on pace to do it for a second time. It's going to crater the economy. And listen, it won't have an impact on his billionaire friends. His Mar-a-Lago crowd will come out all right. But it will impact the regular people I represent in New Britain, Bristol, and Bridgeport, Connecticut.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Former President Biden did see $4 trillion added under his administration. I would like to talk about former President Biden. Newly released tapes from Mr. Biden's 2023 interview with Special Counsel Robert Hur show him really struggling to recall key moments, including the dates, the death of his son Beau, as well as when former President Trump, at the time, former President Trump, was elected. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
FORMER PRES. JOE BIDEN:
What month did Beau die? Oh, God. May 30th.
RACHEL COTTON:
2015.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
2015.
FORMER PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Was it 2015 he had died?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
It was May of 2015.
FORMER PRES. JOE BIDEN:
It was 2015.
BOB BAUER:
Or I'm not sure the month, sir, but I think that was the year.
MARC KRICKBAUM:
That's right, Mr. President.
FORMER PRES. JOE BIDEN:
And what's happened in the meantime, is that -- as -- and Trump gets elected in November of 2017?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS:
2016.
FORMER PRES. JOE BIDEN:
16. 2016.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, is this audio proof that President Biden shouldn't have run for reelection?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, I - I don't know that that's a particular fair excerpt. That's a very emotional topic for the president. But obviously, in retrospect, the president should have gotten out of the race earlier. There's no doubt that the Democratic Party would have been better served by having the ability to have an open primary. Kamala Harris probably would have done very well in that process. But in retrospect, we lost. And so you can defend the way in which our politics played out. I mean, listen, what I -- I've said is that, you know, like anybody who reaches that stage in their life, you know, there is some level of diminishment. But I got to work with the president pretty closely in 2022, in 2023. And I saw a president who was passing legislation and helping the American people at a pretty unprecedented rate. That being said, by 2024, the American people had decided that they wanted somebody new. They wanted somebody younger. And it was a mistake. It was a mistake for Democrats to not listen to the voters earlier and set up a process that would have gotten us in a position when we could've been more competitive that fall.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you this. The new book, Original Sin, by Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson, goes even further and actually details what they call a cover-up from the White House, from top aides around the president. Here's a little bit of what they have written, quote, "One senior White House aide, who left because they didn't think Biden should run again, confessed to us that 'we attempted to shield him from his own staff so many people didn't realize the extent of the decline beginning in 2023.'" Do you think some top officials in the Biden White House covered up the state of his mental health at the time?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, I -- I haven't read the book, and so I don't know what to say about the allegations they make. But I know that I worked with him throughout 2022 on the gun bill, which has saved, by the way, thousands of lives. He was intimately involved in those negotiations. I was in the White House in the fall of 2023 doing an hour-and-a-half long meeting on some really complicated developments in the Middle East. And I saw a president who was in control. So I -- that's my experience. But I admit that by 2024, the American public had made up their minds, right, that they wanted the Democratic Party to nominate somebody new. And it was absolutely a mistake for the party to not listen to those voters.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to be very clear, do you bear some responsibility as well?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Oh, I think we all bear responsibility. Listen, and I think, you know, we maybe didn't listen as early as we should have in part because we have immense loyalty to this man who had led this country out of a pandemic, who had been maybe the most prodigious legislator as a president-- the Inflation Reduction Act, the Infrastructure Act, the bipartisan gun bill-- in a generation. But ultimately, in retrospect, you can't defend what the Democratic Party did because we are stuck with a madman, with a corrupt president in the Oval Office. And we should have given ourselves a better chance to win.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me ask you about part of my conversation with Treasury Secretary Bessent in which I asked him about that $400 million jet that Qatar is offering to the president, to the United States. President Trump said it would be, quote, "stupid not to take it." What is your response to that argument, that the U.S. deserves the biggest plane and President Trump says it's actually going to ultimately save the U.S. money?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
So why did he choose these three countries to go to for his first major foreign trip? It's not because these are our most important allies or the most important countries in the world. It's because these are the three countries willing to pay him off. Every single one of these countries is giving Trump money: the plane from Qatar, and investment in his cryptocurrency scam from the UAE, and they are asking for national security concessions in return. This is the definition of corruption: foreign governments putting money in the president's pocket and then the United States giving them national security concessions that hurt our own security. By the way, the plane is not a gift to the American people, as the secretary said. It is going directly to Donald Trump. That library will take a decade to build. And so once he leaves the White House, until the library is built, he gets to use that plane to fly around all of his billionaire friends while his policies result in millions of Americans losing their healthcare and having to pay higher costs. That is the definition of corruption.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, well, we'll watch how it all unfolds. I know Democrats are discussing various ways to potentially try to block it. Senator Murphy, thank you so much for being here.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I hope you'll come back soon. Appreciate it very much. When we come back, former Vice President Pence shares what his relationship is like with President Trump now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Former Vice President Mike Pence left Washington in 2021 and ran for president against his former boss in 2024. In my conversation, I asked Mr. Pence what his relationship is like now with President Trump.
[START TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
You, of course, recently saw President Trump at the funeral for former President Jimmy Carter. Do you ever talk to him? Does he ever reach out to you for any counsel at this point?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
You know, there were difficult days at the end of the administration. But what's not widely known is that the president and I parted very amicably, that he thanked me from the tarmac of Andrews Air Force Base and my family by name for the service we'd render to the country and to him, and we'd speak several times a month in the days after we left office. The day I went to the inauguration, the president called me. We talked for an hour about conversations I'd had with people on the platform. But what saddened me was, several months after we left office, he returned to much of the same rhetoric that he had used in the run up to that fateful day of January 6. Again, talking again about the election being stolen, suggesting that I could have had the ability to overturn the election. And that was where I just came to the conclusion that we best part ways. And I did see him at the Carter funeral and we had a warm exchange. I stood up, I shook his hand, and I said, 'Congratulations, Mr. President.' And I could tell you, he softened and said, 'Thanks, Mike.' And I congratulated the first lady as well. It was, it was a good moment. And I I pray for the president often, and I want him to be successful.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we – Oh, you can see my full interview with Vice President Pence at meetthepress.com. And when we come back, President Trump's agenda meets resistance from the courts and Congress. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent Andrea Mitchell; co-anchor of PBS NewsHour Amna Nawaz; Stephen Hayes, editor and CEO of The Dispatch; and Ashley Etienne, former communications director to Vice President Harris. Andrea, let me start with you, a lot to unpack. President Trump coming off of his first foreign trip. I discussed that to some extent with Secretary Bessent. And it comes as he's preparing for these key talks on Monday with President Putin --
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Exactly.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– with President Zelenskyy. What are you hearing about the talks and the fallout from the trip?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, right now the secretary of state today is meeting, along with JD Vance, the vice president, with Zelenskyy at the Vatican. In his homily, Pope Leo at his inaugural mass, called for peace in Ukraine and of course Gaza as well. But with President Trump talking to Vladimir Putin, he has never pressured Putin in any conversation that we know of. He has pressured Zelenskyy. And so we don't know what's going to come out of that. There is growing support for sanctions. You heard, of course, Secretary Bessent said that they wouldn't hesitate. And there's now Lindsey Graham says, more than 77 votes, pushing 80 votes, in the Senate, bipartisan support for that. But there were other big outcomes of this trip. He did – the opening to Syria is a big deal. The overtures to Iran possibly could be, you know, a landmark deal. But what others are talking about, I've talked to top diplomats in – among our closest allies, they're concerned that, first of all, the deals that Secretary Bessent talked about, a lot of those were negotiated under Joe Biden. Those take years to negotiate. He's taking credit, President Trump is, for them. And secondly, there was a lot of dealmaking by his sons and a lot that was being done for his own advantage. They've been very open about this. And it's frankly disturbing what they are talking – what diplomats, among our closest allies, are talking about, the normalizing about what they criticize as personal corruption that is taking place this term, not to the extent that it certainly was maybe was behind the scenes last term.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes. Amna, let's talk about the deals. Because that is sort of a big overarching theme of this administration. Here you have President Trump trying to get a deal with Congress for his agenda as he's trying to get this deal to end the Russia-Ukraine war. How do you see all of this unfolding at what is really a critical juncture here?
AMNA NAWAZ:
Well, obviously the Russia-Ukraine deal is going to ride on whether or not Putin is acting in good faith. And we see no indications that he is so far. It's worth noting Russia launched the largest drone attack in the history of the war overnight on Ukraine. And that probably tells you everything you need to know about how Putin sees this moment. So big questions on that. On the budget deal back here, look, this is a key part of President Trump's second term agenda when it comes to cutting taxes and border funding and spending. The fact that that did not pass with Republican support in the budget committee, it's a setback for the president, obviously the concerns there are people calling for more cuts. They're concerned about exactly the things that you cited with Secretary Bessent, that this could add $4 trillion to the deficit over ten years. But the history here matters here as well, right? This has not yet reached the full chamber. President Trump was away. What I'm hearing from White House officials and others is when he gets back, he's going to get more personally involved. He's already used his social media megaphone to apply some pressure, saying Republicans need to unite around this. We've seen him call individual lawmakers, twist arms, get things across the finish lines. And Republican lawmakers haven't stood up to him yet on any of the major issues, whether it's rescinding congressionally-appropriated funds or pushing through his nominees for the Cabinet. It's hard to see if they're going to stand up to him on the one thing that matters most for his agenda.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Stephen, so much is riding on this bill as Amna points out. And it does come against the backdrop of Moody's downgrading the nation's credit rating, the tariff wars that continue, and you heard Secretary Bessent in response to Walmart saying they're going to have to pass some of these prices on, saying Walmart said to him they will eat some of the costs – not all of them, but some of them. I mean, talk about this moment from a political perspective for the president because there is a lot on the line here.
STEPHEN HAYES:
Yeah, there sure is. Look, we witnessed the death of a talking point on your show this morning and with President Trump's post yesterday on social media. The president has made the case for years, including repeatedly throughout his campaign, that foreign countries pay tariffs. That's not true. As Scott Bessent told you today, Walmart is going to eat some of the tariffs. This is something the president encouraged Walmart to do yesterday. Well, Walmart doesn't need to eat the tariffs if foreign countries are paying them. So we know that that's not true. I mean, I don't think anybody who's paid even casual attention to tariff policy in the past understood that what the president was saying wasn't true. But we've seen the death of a talking point. It'd be better if we have that conversation based on economic facts and history rather than rhetoric.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's a fascinating point that he really did put a fine point on that idea that tariffs are paid ultimately here in the U.S. Ashley, I have to turn to you and turn the conversation to former President Biden, all of the revelations this week. I do want to read something that a Biden spokesperson said about that audio that we heard from his conversation with Special Counsel Hur. He said 'the audio does nothing but confirm what is already public.' Take us inside your conversations. How much does this moment hurt Democrats?
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
I mean, I agree with the spokesperson. I don't think it really has any impact. But this is how I see it. The real question is: Why release this tape now? And it's clear to me that President Trump released the tape because he's trying to distract from his disastrous – unprecedented – disastrous first 100 days. I mean, we've all been talking about that at the table today. So to me that's what's at play. Imagine a situation where you're so desperate, so under water on every issue that you play your best card in the first six months of an administration. So the way I see this is: This is good for Joe Biden. It's good for the Democratic Party, because we can dispense with this now and not closer to the midterm election --
KRISTEN WELKER:
You think it's good for Joe Biden?
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
Meaning –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– it does raise new questions about his decision not to get out sooner as you just heard Chris Murphy say.
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
Well, I do believe that I think the problem with the Democratic Party right now is that we've not produced an autopsy, we've not produced an assessment of what actually happened in the election and to address this issue head on. If we were to, we can reconcile, coalesce, speak with one voice, and move past it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Andrea, what are you hearing? Tough moment for potential 2028 contenders.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
I mean, there's – there was a lot of affection for Joe Biden, but it really has evaporated to a great extent because of how terrible the Trump presidency, in your description, Ashley, has been in the first hundred days but mostly because people remember what they saw. You know, what are you going to believe: me or your lying eyes? People saw the debate. And immediately after the debate they realized, Democrats as well as Republicans gleefully on their part, that this was a terrible mistake, that he should not have run. Whether or not he and his family and his closest advisors thought he was up to it then, they had to look forward four years, five years by the time the campaign was over and that his health would have continued to diminish. He was not aging well. He didn't look well. And people wanted a change, and they wanted a primary. And President Obama – former President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, were right about that, but nobody was willing to really push hard enough and certainly the caucuses did not move quickly.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Amna, I keep hearing this word "trust," that Democrats feel like they've got to rebuild trust at this point.
AMNA NAWAZ:
And I think that is the challenge. To Ashley's point, Democrats are going to be asked about this now on the back of the book, on the audio being released. If you had a concern that Biden was too old before, some of these things confirm that now. What I will say, the consistency that I'm hearing from some Democrats when they're asked about this, as I know you asked Senator Murphy – I've been asking senior Democrats when I speak with them too — people who were close to him who saw him regularly even in the final months of office maintain to this day they never saw anything like what they saw at the debate in private, and they also say it's not going to be an issue for them in 2028.
STEPHEN HAYES:
But, I mean, I'm sorry. That is crazy. That's crazy for them to say. And one of the things that this book does is it provides chapter and verse, detail after overwhelming detail that they did know and that everybody –
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
And here's the real question –
STEPHEN HAYES:
And, look, the public knew. We knew. We knew. We watched it--
KRISTEN WELKER:
Andrea's saying they don't have a leader. That's part of the problem.
ASHLEY ETIENNE:
That is a part of the problem. But, you know, the question is: How does Joe Biden respond in the next few days as this book sort of unfolds? I really think the issue is that this runs some risk for perceptions of his legacy. There's two issues. We could either look backwards, litigate the past, or move forward. But Joe Biden's going to have to determine that. He's going to have to weigh in. If his team continues to be defensive on this issue, it's going to compound the problem for the party internally and externally. And it's also going to have implications for perceptions of his legacy --
STEPHEN HAYES:
This is his legacy. This is his legacy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It absolutely is. Great conversation. Thank you all for being here. We covered a lot of ground. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday it's Meet the Press.